THE GREATNESS OF WHAT IS IN CHRIST
THE GREATNESS OF WHAT IS IN CHRIST
AJG I thought this passage might give us an impression of the greatness of what we are called to have part in. It greatly stresses, as we know, the greatness of the Person of Christ, viewing Him in His glorious Manhood, so that the greatness of what has come in now in Man for the pleasure of God is opened out, the object of the epistle being partly to counter what was coming in, and what the Colossians were in danger of, that is, bringing in the thoughts of men, mere men, philosophy and so on, and in order to counteract that, the apostle, by the Spirit, enlarges on the greatness of Christ, and in the next chapter it says, “In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” This emphasizes His manhood, that it dwells bodily, and that we are complete in Him, that is, that the assembly has such a Head. But then also, the epistle is written in order to attract us to go over Jordan in our minds and affections, to find our life in what this epistle speaks of as “the things which are above.” So that this chapter might be viewed as answering to the glory of the ark, and to the people having to have the ark clearly before them in its movements. There were to be two thousand cubits between it and them at first, in order to induce them to go forward and to go over Jordan. The two thousand cubits of course, did not remain, because actually the ark went into Jordan and remained in the bed of Jordan while all the people passed over. But at the first there was this distance of two thousand cubits in order that they might get a clear view of the ark in its movements. And I think that that is one thing that is in mind in the first two chapters of this epistle, this one specially emphasizing the greatness of Christ,
but also bringing in the great thought that He “is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead.” He is the beginning, first-born from among the dead, and so everything for God begins with Christ in resurrection, or Christ the other side of death. But before the apostle begins to enlarge on the greatness of Christ he speaks about his care for the Colossians, and of course for us, that we might be strengthened with all power, according to the might of God’s glory, unto all endurance and long-suffering with joy; “giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light,” as though the sharing of the portion of the saints in light is one of the great means by which we are enabled to go on in all endurance and long suffering with joy. I am sure we prove that. And it seems to be suggested in this epistle, that the more we enter into our portion, the portion of the saints in light, the more we shall be strengthened unto all endurance and long suffering with joy. So, before the personal glory of Christ as Creator, and His glory in relation to all things and in relation to the assembly, is brought in, His position in love is stressed, that we give thanks to the Father who has delivered us from the authority of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, as though the whole position is dominated by the light of love. The Father is the Source of it and the Son the Object of it, the Centre of the great system of love that is before God.
CBl Is the thought here connected with His greatness the same as His being the “beginning of the creation of God”?
AJG I am not quite sure whether it is the same thought altogether. The beginning of the creation of God would be, I suppose, that Christ was there at the beginning before God began to operate at all, and His operations had relation to Christ, but here He is definitely called, “The beginning, firstborn from among the dead,” as though all that is being brought in for the pleasure of God begins with Christ beyond death.
CBl Is that the way the saints are brought into it?
AJG You mean by His death? Quite so, and I think it is important to realize this, that Christ is the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, firstborn stressing, of course, His personal pre-eminence in that position. But as we begin to touch our privilege as with Christ, at the Supper and in that which follows, we come to know Him in this light, and then it is a question of going forward. It is not a question of going back to occupation with the Lord in His pathway here, however precious that may be in other settings; but He is the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead. So having come out from among the dead He will go forward, and will have us go forward with Him.
JS Would you say that as the “firstborn from among the dead” He has a race?
AJG A race of His own order? Yes, quite so. He is pre-eminent among them, but He has a race as you say. As it says, “Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die it abides alone, but if it die, it bears much fruit.”
CC So in that relation you would say that it is the firstborn One and the firstborn ones?
AJG Yes. Christ must be firstborn in every position. Firstborn does not refer to time exactly but more to personal pre-eminence, as it says, “That He might have the first place in all things.”
AC In connection with what you said about the distance, the two thousand cubits, would that speak of the greatness of Christ as the only One who could meet death in all its terror, to make a way through for His people?
AJG Yes, and in order too to give them a good view of the ark in its movements into death as setting aside the power of Jordan.
RS Would you not think that there was a goodly number going across the Jordan and therefore they would have to be a certain distance off in order to get a good view of the ark?
AJG Well, quite so, and one would link it in one’s mind with what the Lord said to Peter in the end of John 13, “Where I go thou canst not follow me now, but thou shalt follow me after.” The Lord had to go alone first, it was a question of going into death, but Peter and all His own should go that way afterwards and pass over.
EME Would you say a little more as to Him being the beginning of the creation? We have to keep in our minds that He forms no part of the creation.
AJG No. He forms no part of the creation, but in His grace He has taken a place in relation to the creation, the Creator has entered into the creation and taken a place in relation to it, and so He is necessarily firstborn of all creation because He is the Creator. That is how it reads here, “Firstborn of all creation, because by him were created all things” (verses 15 and 16).
AAT In Romans 8 it speaks of Him as the firstborn among many brethren, is that a more limited thought?
AJG Well, it would be limited to those of the assembly, I suppose, but even then He is firstborn, He is pre-eminent. I think that has in view the pleasure of God. It is a question of what God has predestinated, that we should be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. That is, God would have Christ in His pre-eminence before Him, but surrounded with many of His own order, all in sonship.
HAL Is that why you spoke of our being in love in this matter. There is a reference here to the “Son of his love,” the Father has translated us. Is it to encourage us to go over?
AJG Well, it is to make the position attractive, I think. He has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love. It is a most affecting expression, that He has brought us out of the realm of darkness into a sphere that is dominated by One whose disposition is love.
HLH Does that in itself constitute our fitness for sharing the portion of the saints in light?
AJG Well, I suppose so. You mean that God has given us light and made it effective, and I suppose our fitness lies really in the fact that we have been redeemed and have received the Spirit.
AAT I notice the expression “firstborn” is used. I am wondering whether the thought that we have about being born is right, whether He is not first in every way?
AJG Yes, I do not think the expression “firstborn” has particular reference to birth. It has reference to personal pre-eminence I understand. The firstborn in Israel had a double portion, he was marked out as particularly distinguished. That, I think, is the way in which the expression “firstborn” is used in scripture.
HLH It is connected with right or status, is it not?
AJG Yes.
EME Would Joseph be a type of that? He was not the firstborn actually but he had the pre-eminence?
AJG Exactly. And so in Psalm 89: 27 it says, “I will make him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” It is what God will make Christ in relation to the earth - His firstborn, highest of the kings of the earth.
SH As firstborn from the dead our position is secure?
AJG Well, quite so. The very expression “firstborn from among the dead” involves that there are others who come out from among the dead, but He is pre-eminent among them. Of course, He is actually first from the point of time, “the first fruits, Christ, then those that are the Christ’s at His coming,” but it is not a question of time so much as a question of pre-eminence.
CBl In connection with pre-eminence it says, “God has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy companions.”
AJG Yes, quite.
CB It would mean that every part of the truth is to be taken up in Christ, the One who has the first place?
AJG Quite so, and I think when we contemplate the greatness of Christ, as suggested here, and His having come into manhood, you can see how much it means for God, that there is now before Him, beyond death, a Man of such personal glory, and then the pleasure God finds in all that stands related to Christ, and especially the assembly.
AT I was thinking of what is formative in endurance and longsuffering, in the saints.
AJG Endurance would form us? Quite so. God Himself is spoken of as the God of endurance, and also marked by much long suffering, and the Lord supremely endured; so that these are features that are seen in God and in Christ, and the saints are to take them on.
HAL It adds here, “with joy.”
AJG Quite so, that is that we ought to be joyful. Not that we have not sorrow. It is right that we should have sorrow, Paul said, “as grieved, but always rejoicing,” and the Lord is called the Man of sorrows and yet He speaks of “My joy.” At the same time we ought to be joyful, and it is dishonouring to God if we are not.
RS This is not the subduing side of the kingdom, is it? Is it not more the attractive side of it, the Son of His love?
AJG I think so. There is, of course, the delivering side, delivering us from the authority of darkness, but it is not so much the subduing thought as you say, but rather the attractiveness of the position, that we are now in a realm, you might say a protected realm, that is dominated by the Son of His love.
LAC Would the thought then be that we are brought into a realm where the authority of light has sway?
AJG Yes, light has sway there, but it is the light that shines in the Son of the Father’s love. So that it is the light of the way God has come out in revelation, and the perfect answer to the revelation in His Son.
SH So we give thanks to the Father.
AJG Quite so. That is what is in mind, that we should be led on to that.
JS What part has this in the morning meeting, in connection with “firstborn “? We do not go backwards?
AJG I think if we take account of Christ as the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, if we begin to touch the blessedness of union with Christ, association with Him on the other side of death, then we do not want to go back to what He was here. The Lord is not going back. He is going straight forward. And so in Psalm 19 it says, “He is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race.” Well, a strong man starts the race with the confidence that He has power to go right through to the end, and he is not going to be diverted, he has ability to go from start to finish, and to reach the end of the course. And I think that is what we need to have before us at the Supper, that, as the Lord takes us on He has ability to lead us right through to the end without any divergence or going back, and He will rejoice to do it.
TG To be able to apprehend what we have been brought into, and to know our place with Christ would deliver us from anything that is in this world.
AJG It would deliver us. So far as circumstances here are concerned, we are to be strengthened to go through them in all endurance and longsuffering with joy. That obviously has reference to conditions here. Endurance and longsuffering are not needed in the enjoyment of the privileges of the assembly.
TG So the end in view is that God will get the praise and glory?
AJG Quite so.
AY Would you say that the apostle in view of the great danger that was ahead of the saints at Colosse, thought it but right to bring forward at first this attractive side of the truth, so that their minds and affections might be held in connection with their Head in heaven?
AJG I am sure that is right.
HAL Moses in blessing the tribes puts Benjamin before Joseph and speaks of Benjamin as the “beloved of Jehovah,” and then we get the inheritance spoken of in Joseph. Would that be in keeping with this scripture?
AJG He enlarges on the thought of blessing in relation to Joseph, does he not, and speaks of him as the one separated from his brethren, which really views Christ as firstborn from among the dead, because He is separated from His brethren through death and resurrection.
AAT We often speak of Ephesians as the highest expression of truth. I suppose that is right as regards the assembly, but in connection with the Person, the greatness of the Person, we get that in Colossians, do we not?
AJG I think we do, although we get certain expressions in Ephesians also, that greatly emphasize the personal greatness of Christ. We get for instance, that He is the One who “fills all in all.” Well, He could not do that if He were not God. And then again we get that He has gone up far above all heavens, far beyond the created sphere, and that again greatly impresses us with His personal greatness, besides His positional greatness. His greatness in exaltation as Man, which we have in Ephesians to a great extent. But this does enlarge on the personal greatness of Christ as Creator.
RAE Would you say that our position as brethren of Christ, and the relationship of the assembly to Him, and our place in sonship before God, all belong to the other side of death?
AJG Oh, yes, clearly.
RAE And if we are to enter upon them intelligently and with right feelings, it is necessary to apprehend Christ there first, is it not?
AJG Yes, I am sure.
HOE Is that why it says, “He presented himself living after he had suffered.” We do not go back to the sufferings, we just refer to them to hold our affections as it were, but living.
AJG Yes, quite so, “living.” “He presented himself living” - they had got Himself, and Himself beyond death, so that the things they are to touch now are to be apprehended as real and substantial, although they are spiritual. He would come in through closed doors, and disappear from their sight and so on. It was a spiritual order of things that they were now entering upon, and yet it was substantial, that He was there living and could be handled.
RS Were not the Colossians in danger of being imposed upon by the minds of men, and taking created things as the objects of worship, angels and so on. And therefore to correct that the apostle brings in the greatness of Christ personally, as the Creator of those created things?
AJG Exactly.
HAL This verse, “For in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell,” refers to Christ here in this scene before going into death?
AJG Yes.
HAL And then the verse you referred to in the next chapter is in connection with His present position?
AJG Yes, quite so.
JM In Isaiah 53: 8 it says, “He was cut off out of the land of the living.”
AJG Well, that, of course, refers to His death, but His death viewed as something that man brought about in hatred to Him. But when we are speaking of the ark going through Jordan, it is not a question of His death brought about by man, it is a question of Christ in His glory, moving on God’s behalf to open up a way through death for His people to be brought into all that God has purposed for them.
AKH Would that be John’s line? In John’s gospel the fact is recorded that He bowed His head.
AJG Yes, it is John’s line. In John’s gospel it is the Lord moving of Himself all the way through, so it says, “Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father,” that is how it is viewed, that He is departing out of this world to the Father, opening up another scene, the scene of the Father’s pleasure.
EME Is the work of redemption viewed here as an integral part of the scheme, the forgiveness of sins coming in there as a parenthesis?
AJG Yes. It is a necessary thing to keep that in our minds, that however much we touch in the way of privilege, however much we enter upon what belongs to the assembly and sonship, yet we never lose the sense that as individuals, this has been necessary, and that we have forgiveness of sins. It means that we can move in the greatest things with liberty, and feel that there is nothing artificial or unreal, in regard of our position.
HOE So it is remarkable that it is in the first chapter of Ephesians and the first of Colossians, that this truth is brought out.
AJG Quite so.
LAC Have you in mind that the verses preceding verse 18 show how adequately “the kingdom of the Son of his love” has met the authority of darkness, so as to set up the saints here, walking in the sight of the Lord as mentioned in verse 10, and then, endurance and longsuffering marking them, and joy; and then the thought of their going on, after verse 18 to the full purpose of God and not so much connected with things here, is that in your mind?
AJG I do not know that one had linked them together quite like that, but I think as the apostle was writing, the Spirit of God leads him on. He speaks of the Son of the Father’s love and of our having redemption, the forgiveness of sins, in Him, and then he is led on to this wonderful description of the personal greatness of Christ, so that every other should be eclipsed for us.
AY Do you think we see the glory of His Deity presented in chapter 2?
AJG Yes, clearly. Only it is referring to Christ as having become Man. The glory of His Deity is always carried in our minds, and it is enlarged on here, but in relation to Him who has become Man, and who is Head of the body, the assembly.
HAL What are we to understand by “Who is image of the Invisible God”?
AJG Well, image is usually taken to refer to representation, so that I suppose He is the exact representation of God on the one hand: all the light of God that we shall ever have, we shall have in Christ. But then, while He is that on the one hand, it immediately goes on to speak of Him as “Firstborn of all creation.” That is, He has come out from God on the one hand as the image of God, but on the other hand as toward God He is firstborn of all creation. He has now taken a position in relation to the creation, and that is toward God.
JHH We notice that “the Father” and “the Son” are both mentioned here, which are both terms of endearment. You referred earlier to what is substantial and living. Do you think that while we, of course, would be governed by light and truth as to our position, that love must be there? Is it not a question of true affection for Christ, and affection for the Father too in all that we share and enjoy together?
AJG Oh, yes, indeed, as was remarked recently and has often been remarked, “If we have not love we are nothing. I mean, love is the whole crux of the matter because God is love, and He is bringing about conditions of life and blessing, that are in keeping with His love, and that will satisfy His love. So that if we have not love we are nothing. If we have not love among ourselves how can God find pleasure in us?
LAC Love in the Spirit is mentioned in verse 8, what is the meaning of that expression?
AJG I suppose it is that you have the ability to love saints whom you do not know personally, and have never seen, but you are conscious of loving them although you have never seen them. Paul had never seen the Colossians and the Colossians had never seen him.
RS Is that not what makes it basic on our side for the opening out of all this wonderful truth?
AJG Yes, I think so. You mean conditions of love among ourselves are necessary.
RS Expansion in affections too.
AJG Yes.
CBI If we are in the enjoyment of divine love, we will love all the saints?
AJG Indeed. But I think it a great thing to get in mind that the whole system that God has in mind to bring in in Christ - He is heading up all things in Christ - is a system of love, all things are to be headed up in One who is loved, that is the divine scheme, to bring forward His Son as loved and place Him as Man in the position of love, and then to head up all things, every family, in Him. So there is a great system of love before the Father, that is what is in the divine mind. The assembly is in the enjoyment of it already in measure.
HOE And this particular scripture stands in contrast to philosophy and vain deceit? What is of man is not built upon love.
AJG No, quite so.
FHP I was thinking of Solomon in type and what Jehovah called him at his birth, “Jedidiah, beloved of Jehovah.”
AJG Yes, quite so.
AY It is very marvellous, as you remark, that God is building such a system up in love. And it is being sustained and held together by the Son, would you say, in contrast to all that is around that is marked by hatred and everything else. But this great system is built up in love and with those so very far away from one another and who do not know one another there is a love and a sympathy for one another marking them.
AJG Quite so.
AAT You said that all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell in a Man.
AJG And dwelt here, before His death, and it dwells in Him now bodily, now that He is risen from the dead. But it was pleased to dwell in Him, as it says in verse 19, “In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to itself.” That really refers to what came into being as He became Man, that there was now a Man in whom all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, with a view to all things being reconciled to the fulness, in that Man.
SP What is the idea of “fulness”?
AJG Well, as far as I understand, it simply means as much as the creature can know of God. Obviously there must be that connected with God which the creature can never know, or else we should be equal with God, but as far as God has come out in revelation and can be known by the creature, it is all there in Christ.
AAT And that is what we speak of as the “economy”?
AJG Well, the economy has that in view. The economy is just the arrangement, if one may use a somewhat commonplace expression, the arrangement the Godhead has made with a view to God being revealed to man, and man being able to respond suitably, for God’s pleasure. And so, the Son and the Spirit, two Persons of the Godhead, have taken up relatively subordinate positions, the Son having become Man and the Spirit having been sent down from heaven. But the word economy simply means an arrangement made by the Persons of the Godhead amongst Themselves with a view to working out the thoughts of Their love.
RAE Does it appear from scripture that those positions taken will be retained eternally?
AJG Yes, I think so, clearly.
SP Would you say that the idea of reconciling all things to Himself, is that He would have all things suitable to His love?
AJG Yes, quite so. And what the Lord has done, is that He has made peace by the blood of His cross, that is, He has taken up before God the whole question of sin for the universe, and has made atonement for sin, so that it has given Him the right to take up all things as He will do in the world to come. And all things being held by Him, they will be held, of course, for the pleasure of God, so that all things will be reconciled to God. But then we are already reconciled.
SP So that everything will be for the pleasure of the Godhead?
AJG Exactly. Because all things will be taken up and held by a Man who is Himself God, so that there is no disparity between God and the One who takes up all things and holds them for God.
RS “Having made peace by the blood of his cross” - would that show too that there will be no disturbing element at all in that universe, everything will be based upon the blood of Christ?
AJG I think it refers to what He did in His cross, that He has made peace. That is to say, the offensiveness before God of sin in the universe has been removed by the sacrifice of Christ, and in place of the offensiveness of sin there is the sweet savour before God of the devotedness of Christ in offering Himself as a sacrifice for sin. So that the ground is clear now, and when the time comes Christ will take up the whole scene and hold it for the pleasure of God.
JS So in that sense both Jew and Gentile come in together?
AJG Well, that is not what we are speaking of now, it is not referring to the assembly or to persons, it refers rather to the fact that Christ will take up all things in heaven and earth and hold them for the pleasure of God. But when it is a question of persons it says, “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works, yet now has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death.” The other speaks of the blood of His cross, but this speaks of the body of His flesh through death, for when it is a question of persons who are moral beings and intelligent persons, we have to understand that the way God has brought in reconciliation is by removing the man, and then bringing in His pleasure in Christ and setting us up in life in Christ.
JM The Lord said, “All power is given unto me both in heaven and earth.”
AJG Quite so, and when the time comes, the time the Father has appointed, the Lord will come forth and exercise that power, of course He is exercising it now in a secret way, but He will exercise it publicly then. He will put all enemies under His feet and take up the whole scene and hold it for God’s pleasure.
EME What does it mean by “the blood of his cross”?
AJG The blood of His cross refers to the death of Christ, but emphasizing, I think, the value in the sight of God of the sacrifice of Christ. Because the blood refers to the life, the preciousness of Jesus to God, and that He should lay down that life in order to make atonement for sin, and clear the ground so that He might be able to take up the whole scene, is very precious in the sight of God.
EME So that you would say reconciliation in verse 20 is very broad?
AJG Quite so.
RS That refers to the future, does it not? All things are not yet reconciled, but he speaks of the saints as “Now!”
AJG Quite so, it refers to the future. The basis is already laid in the blood of His cross, but it will not actually come to pass until Christ actually takes up things. Then the power of evil will be set aside, and the Lord Himself will hold things and influence them for the pleasure of God.
SP We look forward to the world to come then?
AJG Yes, quite so. Think of what it will be for God when everything that hath breath praises Jehovah.
SP Would you say something about the change of man that is necessary?
AJG Well, it refers to reconciling all things to Himself first, which as we say, is future, although the basis is already laid. But then in verse 21 it says, “You who once were alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works, yet now has it (that is the fulness) reconciled, in the body of his flesh, through death; to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it, if indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm.”
RAE Could we speak of all things being reconciled in the millennium, or does it await the eternal condition of things?
AJG I think it looks forward to the millennium, it is there that it will be displayed.
DLE Would you say the act of the Lord going into death affects us more when we read of His greatness before we read of His making peace by the blood of His cross?
AJG I think it does, exactly. And I think that should affect us every Lord’s Day morning, because the Lord said, “This is My body” and then He says, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood.” So it is a question of whose body and whose blood?
TG Why does it say, “You who were alienated and enemies in mind” instead of in heart?
AJG Probably because the Colossians were in danger of being carried away by their minds, and so the Spirit of God is pointing out that our minds are naturally alienated from God, and at enmity with Him.
WH Is that why headship is brought in also - Head of the body?
AJG Yes, quite so.
LAC Is the reconciliation here to the Godhead? You mentioned to the fulness.
AJG It is apparently the fulness, the words “of the Godhead” in verse 19, were put in by Mr. Darby to make it plainer as he thought. But really, it is, in Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to itself, that is, the fulness. And then, “And you, who once were alienated in mind by wicked works, yet now has it (that is the fulness) reconciled in the body of his flesh.”
LAC Would you explain just a little more the thought of being reconciled to the fulness?
AJG Well, it seems to me that we are dealing with God in relation to His creatures, and obviously there must be that about God which the creature can never comprehend, because if it were otherwise the creature would be equal with God, which cannot be; hence there is always that about God which is inscrutable. But the fulness, as I understand it, refers to the light in which God has come out in revelation so that He may be known by the creature, and we are reconciled to that. That is to say, we are made suitable for the position in which God has set us. He has come out in revelation and we are to be suitable to Him as thus known.
RS And is there not a link between the fulness and we being complete in Him? All God requires in man is found in Christ, and then we do not need to go outside of Christ for anything that we require because we are complete in Him.
AJG That is the thought, I think. On the one hand all the revelation of God is towards us in Christ, but then on the other hand, all the perfect answer to that revelation in the assembly is there in the assembly as having Christ as its Head. And therefore there is no disparity between the revelation and the response to it.
LAC Does it convey the impression to our minds also, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit will themselves take pleasure in everything as having upon it the stamp of Christ?
AJG I think so. The fulness to which we are reconciled would really involve the thought of the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
AT Giving thanks to the Father as we have here shows that the Father has become the Object?
AJG Yes, the Father is the objective; in the economy, as we speak. He is the Person of the Godhead who has retained the Supreme place of God, so that God might be known as Father in the grace that that Name implies. It is a wonderful thing that God should be known in that light. What has impressed me, although it is lower ground than that of the assembly, is that in the 25th Matthew, when it speaks of the Son of man sitting on the throne of His glory and all nations being gathered before Him, it says, “Then shall the King say to those on his right hand,” that is, the saved nations, “Come; blessed of my Father.” A wonderful thing, that the King of kings will say to the saved nations on the earth. You owe your blessing to My Father, as though the final impression He would give them is not that of official glory, King of kings, but that of One above Him, God known as Father.
CB You were going to say something just now about verse 23: “If indeed ye abide in the faith, founded and firm...”
AJG I suppose the apostle brings in that “if” because he was just a little afraid that some of them might be turned aside from the faith altogether, and that is why it comes in. He says, “If indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm.” That is, if you really prove to be genuine, not moved away.
HLH His prayer was based on the hope he had of their faith and love - “If indeed ye abide.”
AJG Yes, because the reconciliation is something that we receive by faith, it is presented in the glad tidings, that God has removed what was offensive to Him, in the death of Christ, and has brought in what is delightful to Him in the Person of Christ, and we receive the reconciliation by faith. Of course, if we give up the Christian faith then we are moved away from the reconciliation.
LAC Is reconciliation and the truth of it, then, entirely objective?
AJG Yes, I understand so.
LAC Would you say a little more as to that and as to the removal of the man? I believe it is generally believed that reconciliation simply means a change of mind and attitude towards God on our part.
AJG It is rather that God shows us in the gospel what He has done, and we receive it on the principle of faith, but then we ought to be honest. It is part of the gospel that God has removed the first man judicially in the death of Christ, and set up those who believe in life before Him in Christ by the Spirit. Well now, if we profess to believe the gospel and receive it we should be honest and accept that our old man has been crucified, and move consistently with it.
HAL You were speaking of things being substantial, bringing the thought of the Lord’s body. He is not being seen by the world now or anybody, but He was seen by His own only after His death. Will He be seen by the universe?
AJG He will indeed. It says, “Every eye shall see him.”
HAL Is that how He is going to hold everything for God as an object?
AJG I suppose not only as an object but by His rule. I mean, in the world to come He will rule.
RS But is not the side of the truth here what is for God?
AJG Exactly.
RS And how God will have Christ effectuate all His thoughts?
AJG Yes, indeed, and hold all things for His pleasure.
AY Do we see that in what is mentioned in connection with the reconciliation in verse 22, the end in view being that we may be presented holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it?
AJG I think that has the present in mind, I do not think that is looking on to the future. “To present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it,” we ought to know something about that in the Spirit’s power in assembly.
SH In verse 18 it says, “And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning...” What do we learn from “who is the beginning”?
AJG Well, I think we were saying earlier that it is a great thing to realize that Christ beyond death is the beginning of everything for God. God is not patching up things in this world, although He will take up the world in the age to come, but Christ beyond death is the beginning of everything for God. And then there is the assembly who is composed of those who are of Christ’s order.
RAE Would you say that in order for us to take the ground of our being holy and unblamable and irreproachable, it is necessary to apprehend that the first man has been removed and that we have been set up in Christ before God?
AJG Well, quite so, and have Christ Himself before our hearts. He certainly is holy and unblamable and irreproachable, but then we are in Him, we are of His own order and we are in Him. Of course, that can only be taken up by us in any power if we are walking in the Spirit. If we are going on in the flesh, obviously the Spirit will not enable us to take up that truth, but it is there before God in Christ and we are in Christ before God.
EME It says, “If any one be in Christ there is a new creation.”
AJG Quite, so. We are entitled in the death of Christ and by the power of the Spirit to dissociate ourselves in mind from all that attaches to us in the flesh and to identify ourselves in mind entirely with the work of God in us, which is new creation and incorruptible. But as I say, we shall not be helped to do that if we are not walking in self-judgment obviously, the Spirit will not promote unreality with us.
LAC It used to be said by Mr. Raven in ministry that God has not bridged the distance but He has removed the distance by removing the man who was the occasion of it.
AJG Exactly. He not only removed the man that brought in the distance, but He has brought in a Man who is wholly pleasing to Him, in whom there is no distance. That is the great thing. There is the removal of the man, and that is essential, but there is the bringing in of a Man that is delightful to God, and that in One of the Godhead, become Man.
SP God’s interests are centred in another Man?
AJG Yes, exactly.
RS So that, “to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it” is the way that God has taken us on, basing it on His judicial termination of the unholy man?
AJG Quite so.
CB When we think of God then, He is, so to speak, restful in having Christ risen from the dead, as the One who has, in His precious death, established the basis for the bringing in of an entirely new universe acceptable to Him, and for persons also to be reconciled. Would not that produce rest in the soul of the believer too?
AJG Yes, I am sure. I think it has been said that reconciliation is the link between the line of responsibility and the line of God’s purpose. Reconciliation shows how God meets all the failure that came in on the line of responsibility and meets it perfectly, so that there is no issue left unsolved, and that leaves Him free to open up what He has in His purpose.
AY Do we see a sample of that in the younger son in Luke 15, brought from the distance and brought into absolute nearness to the Father, and then brought into the house, clothed and made morally suitable for the house?
AJG I should think so, he was made in every way suitable with the best robe on, and a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. But then he was also a son.
LAC Would you be free to say that every moral beauty that God can rest His eyes on now is the result of His having brought in reconciliation? I have in mind that the display of moral beauty in the saints now for the pleasure of God is the result of the fact that they can look on Christ in whom this reconciliation is displayed.
AJG Well, yes. Of course, the presence of anything that is pleasing to God in the saints is really the result of His own work, it is really new creation. It is perhaps a little more linked with new creation than with reconciliation, but really, the means by which God has acted in us is by engaging us with the One in whom reconciliation has come in. But everything that is pleasing to God in the saints is the result of new creation, I would say.
LAC What is the difference between new creation and reconciliation?
AJG Well, reconciliation is something that God has brought in in Christ and presented in the gospel to be received on the principle of faith, but new creation is what God works in our souls, by the Spirit.
TG So that the glad tidings being proclaimed to them, there is no excuse, none are excusable?
AJG No, there is no excuse for any if they do not receive the glad tidings.
AKH Would there be a link between reconciling all things to the fulness and 1 Corinthians 15, the subjugation of all things? There would be a difference would there not?
AJG Well, there is the work of subjugation, but the reconciling of all things to the fulness is viewed, not exactly abstractly, but as an accomplished thing, or rather a thing that will be accomplished and for which the basis is already laid. It simply contemplates all things being taken up by Christ and held by Christ, but before He can take them up He will have to set aside what is abhorrent, of course. So that the Lord will come out from heaven in flaming fire, it says, taking vengeance on those who know not God, and so on. There will be power to set aside all that is irreconcilable. And then as He takes things up and holds them for God there will be the reconciliation of all things.
EME As sinners we needed a Saviour, but as alienated and enemies we need reconciliation, why is that?
AJG Man needs a Saviour, of course, because he cannot do anything for himself, he is like a lost sheep, but then what God presents is the truth of reconciliation which is more than merely meeting us in our distance, it is a question of having us perfectly at home for His own pleasure.
CBl Reconciliation is to God, is it not?
AJG Yes, it is, and it is for God too.
LAC What is the difference between reconciliation as spoken of in Colossians and in Corinthians?
AJG Well, I do not know that there is a great deal of difference, except that in Colossians it would go further. In Corinthians it says, “all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself,” but here in Colossians it extends to all things.
LAC “Be ye reconciled to God” in Corinthians, is that the text of a message to be conveyed?
AJG Yes, I think so.
RS “Be reconciled to God” is really the rendering, as though he was telling the Corinthians in his message to them what was his ministry.
AJG I think so.
RS Bringing them into closer confidence with him now, in contrast with the state of things in the first epistle, you would say?
AJG Yes. “We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.” He was not saying that exactly to the Corinthians, he was just saying, I think, what his ministry was.
LAC But could we now in the gospel include such a statement as calling upon men to be reconciled to God?
AJG Well, I think so. You can surely tell them that though they have been alienated and enemies God has brought in reconciliation in Christ, and it is there for them if they will take it up. They can be reconciled to God.
CBl Therefore the ground has been laid consequent upon the death of Christ?
AJG Yes, and on the presence of Christ as Man with God.
AT In Romans it is based on the death of His Son?
AJG Yes, it says, in Romans, we receive the reconciliation. It is something we receive, something that is given us through the gospel.