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THE HOLY SPIRIT IN CHRISTIANITY (1)

AJG I was thinking of the place which the Holy Spirit has, or is intended to have, in Christianity, and also that what is to be noted at the beginning and is especially emphasised in the early chapters of the Acts is that it is a question also of the whole system being characterised by Jesus in heaven. It is Jesus who is to give character to the whole system but the power for it is in the Holy Spirit here. I think Mr. Raven used to say, an impressive statement, that man is in heaven and God is on earth. And that is the truth, that Man is in heaven in the Person of Jesus and God is on earth in the Spirit, and He is on earth in order to effectuate in divine power correspondence to what is in heaven. And hence this first chapter stresses the Holy Spirit, and also stresses that Jesus has been taken up into heaven. The expression “taken up” conveys the thought of “receiving up” that is it is expressive of the delight of heaven in having Jesus there. Four times the Holy Spirit is mentioned in chapter one and four times the taking up of Jesus into heaven is mentioned. And those two great facts, I believe, are to dominate our thoughts in regard of Christianity: that Man, according to God, is in heaven, and that involves the rejection of every other man, and the Holy Spirit is personally down here in order that testimony as to God, a continuation of what was found in Jesus in the days of His flesh, should be maintained in purity and in power, and also that the service of God (not that Acts develops that much), should be maintained in spiritual power. Perhaps I may remark also that Luke did not write this book, of course, until defection had well set in; that is,

Luke tells us at the end of his book that Paul was in Rome a prisoner so that he did not write the book until general departure from the truth had come in. But notwithstanding that he is not accepting any lowering of standard in his own mind, but by the Holy Spirit, is setting before us the true standard that obtained from the very start, and while of course we cannot look for any recovery to Pentecostal days as regards what is outward, it is the divine intention that we should have the divine standard before us, because God will never be content with anything less than the divine standard, and that where the truth is recovered, the recovery is to the original standard. Hence John in his first epistle insists all the way through on what was from the beginning, and really we not only get what was from the beginning in Jesus personally on earth but also in the assembly as set up at the outset.

HLH The first verse speaks of “all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach.” Is it the thought then that those things should be continued in men?

AJG I understand that is the thought and the doing precedes the teaching, that is, the teaching was to be the exposition of what was set out in actual life, and hence the thirty years of the Lord, as to which comparatively little is given us, that long period of thirty years of private life preceding the three and a half years of public testimony. At the same time in the Acts Luke is not referring to that, because he takes as his standard what came out in the three and a half years of the Lord’s public testimony; he starts at the baptism of John.

RS Is that the reason why, soon after the Lord entered on His public testimony. He began to select twelve men - so that His teaching would be continued?

AJG I think so. The assembly was in mind to be formed as a vessel in which all that came out in Jesus here is to be continued now in life. And the divine thought is that nothing that is out of keeping with what came out in Him is to be seen.

HAL The teaching continued for forty days after His resurrection, during which time He spoke of “the things which concern the kingdom of God.” Would that not link on with His teaching before His death?

AJG I have no doubt it would, because we get His teaching as to the kingdom during the days of His flesh, but it is to be noted that while the assembly is in view - it says, “being assembled with them” - it does not say that He spoke to them of the assembly but taught them concerning the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God really involves subjective formation by the Spirit, because the kingdom of God is the moral sway of God in the soul by the Holy Spirit. And that is what is so important - formation by the Spirit of God, if the assembly is to be here according to God. But the first passage read brings in the prominent place the Holy Spirit is intended to have in Christianity in that it says that the Lord charged the apostles by the Holy Spirit, “Until that day in which, having by the Holy Spirit charged the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up,” chapter 1: 2. And then He commands them not to depart from Jerusalem, “but to await the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye have heard of me,” as though He would impress them with the fact that nothing was to be done in the way of testimony here without the Holy Spirit. They were to await the promise of the Father, and then He says, “For John indeed baptised with water, but ye shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days,” which introduces immediately the thought of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, involving the assembly in which the saints are merged together, to move as one vessel, what is natural to us being submerged, and put out of sight, in order that we might merge together in the fellowship and activity of the Holy Spirit.

LAC Luke closes his gospel with the saints being found in Bethany, the Lord Jesus having been parted from them and carried up into heaven in an attitude of blessing, and then going into Jerusalem in testimony. Do we find in Acts the carrying through of every thought that is thus expressed: the sustaining of the saints in the Lord’s blessing, and maintaining them both in the sphere which would speak of Bethany as well as in the public position as in Jerusalem?

AJG I think Bethany perhaps has some allusion to what was vital in Judaism. You get no mention of Bethany in the Acts, rather the upper room, and then Jerusalem as near to it, because what is stressed in the Acts is that there is to be testimony, and Jerusalem is first of all the sphere of testimony, the sphere of hostility but the sphere of testimony, but it is to be in the power of what is known in the mount of Olives. They come from the mount of Olives, and come to the upper room which is in Jerusalem, that is it is a position that is morally above the level of what is around us, sustained by what we have in the Spirit, which the mount of Olives suggests, but yet having testimony in mind.

HOE Would the possession of the Holy Spirit by ourselves now correspond to the Lord’s charging them by the Holy Spirit before He went on high?

AJG His charging by the Holy Spirit was to emphasise that everything was to be done by the Spirit, that even the Lord Himself would take up that position of charging them by the Holy Spirit.

HOE And we would pay full attention to what the Spirit has to say now, as they did the Lord then?

AJG Yes, surely. It is very affecting to think of it, that God is down here, God dwelling in us by the Holy Spirit. Man is in heaven and God is on earth.

MSS At the beginning of the Lord’s ministry in the early chapters of Luke, the place of the Holy Spirit is stressed, leaving the wilderness and coming out of it.

AJG You mean as characterising the Lord personally. Quite so.

RAE Would this charging them by the Holy Spirit be somewhat in line with the 14th, 15th and 16th of John, where the Lord, as about to leave, in His last words to His own, is emphasising what is going to follow in the greatness of the fact of the Spirit being on earth?

AJG Yes, I think so, it was only a few weeks before this that He had spoken to the disciples so fully about the Comforter, and all that would be fresh in their minds. The remarkable place the Comforter was to fill when the Lord had gone, and also the remarkable statement, “It is profitable for you that I go away, for if I do not go away the Comforter will not come to you, but if I go I will send him to you,” as though to say, You cannot afford to be without the knowledge of the Comforter, and all that His presence on earth means, would no doubt be in their memories.

LBl In connection with your statement of Man in heaven and God upon earth, would that not convey the thought of the possibility of men in testimony here according to the mind of God?

AJG Oh yes, indeed, that is what the Spirit is here for, that all that was seen in Jesus on earth is to be continued now in the vessel which the Spirit is forming, that is, the assembly. And there were the thirty years of private life of the Lord Jesus, not that Acts says much that bears on that, but there were those thirty years which ascended as fragrance to the Father, and of course His three and a half years did too. But there were the thirty years of private life which were specially for the pleasure of God and then the three and a half years of testimony, and all that is to be continued. But the Acts has specially in mind the testimony. Hence the Acts dwells on the whole period from the baptism of John till the time He was taken up.

GM Do you think that the testimony that was borne in heaven at his baptism would prove that the thirty years here were of pleasure to God?

AJG Yes, it would indeed. “In whom I have found my delight” - what God had found. But Acts does not deal so much with the thirty years but rather with the three and a half years of public life. So that the one who was chosen to be an apostle in the place of Judas was to be one who had assembled with them, as it says, “all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which He was taken up from us,” chapter 1: 22. It would seem that the Lord came in and went out among the disciples, and assembled with them, from the baptism of John till the time that He was taken up.

VB What is the difference between His being “taken up” and being “received up”?

AJG I do not think there is much difference. The note says that the word “taken” means receiving, only in an active sense. Later on, in the third chapter, we get, “Whom heaven indeed must receive,” but that is a more passive word and has not quite the force of the word in this chapter, which is actually “taken up”, but in the sense of “receiving.” And therefore I think it is to convey the great pleasure that heaven had in receiving Him. So that He was taken up, and they beheld Him taken up. And not only that, but the angel says to them, “This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven.” He shall come in the same manner. There is to be no change throughout the whole period of His absence, but when He comes it will be in the same manner in which He was seen taken up, as though to impress them with the sense that throughout the whole period from the time He was taken up till the time of His coming again there was to be no change. The standard is to be maintained.

SW Would you say the “taking up” would be the action connected with His movements here and the receiving is when He arrived there?

AJG Well, there might be something in that. “A cloud received him out of their sight.” So He was received out of their sight. Hence the “faith” period began. The angel says, “Why do ye stand looking into heaven?” It is a question now of faith - “God’s dispensation which is in faith.”

HLH It speaks of receiving power, “the Holy Spirit having come upon you.” Is that confined to the apostles or is it true of all who have received the Spirit?

AJG It would be true of all; I think the intention is that the position is to be filled out in power. The Lord speaks of the Father having reserved the matter of times and seasons in His own authority, but He adds, “Ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you.” I believe the question of power is very important, because we are surrounded with a great system of religious pretension which claims authority and would say that those who are not ordained have no authority to speak of divine things. But the authority we have is the power we have in the Spirit, that is what gives authority, the power that there is in the Spirit.

HLH And the authority is associated with the fact that He is a divine Person, is it not?

AJG Quite so.

AY This is the power, you would say, which all the great men in Christendom are unable to resist?

AJG Exactly. And that is what we have to be concerned about, while we are very conscious we are in a day of little power. At the same time there is in the presence of the Spirit that which is irresistible by men, and the greater the opposition the more need for that to come into evidence.

RS And the more pretension there is around, the more humble and cast upon God, cast upon the Holy Spirit too, those who seek to go on actively with God need to be.

AJG Yes, indeed, and another thing is that as we dwell on this great fact of the Holy Spirit being with us, there is a certain danger perhaps, for flesh is very subtle, of thinking that the Holy Spirit is going to attach Himself to us, and make something of us, but He is not. He is going to make everything of Christ, the One who was taken up into heaven, and the apostle who was chosen was to be one who would bear witness of His resurrection. The fact that God has raised up Jesus from among the dead is evidence that He has set aside every other man. He just raised up one Man from among the dead and let the rest remain in death, you might say, and that is the clearest evidence that He has set aside every other man, and the Holy Spirit is always faithful to that, and will make it good in our own souls, if we are subject to Him.

SP Would you say a little more about that one Man out of death? It is a very important word.

AJG Well, it says in verse 22, “One of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection.” The resurrection of Jesus formed the great subject of testimony at the outset. And it says, “This Jesus has God raised up.” And not only raised up from among the dead but exalted. This Jesus, the Man whom the world would not have. And the more we weigh it over the more we realise that the moral import of the resurrection of Christ from among the dead is that God has brought out of death the One whom He approved, and by so doing has exposed and rejected every other man. And that has to be made good in our own souls. For it means that along with the recognition of the presence of the Spirit there has to be wrought in us an increasing measure of dependence and self-judgment.

RS So that you would say that the resurrection of Jesus from among the dead, and the presence of the Holy Spirit here with the saints, are intimately connected?

AJG They are. And I believe that is what comes out in this first chapter before the Spirit actually comes. The chapter mentions the Holy Spirit four times, so we are to be impressed with a sense that the whole system is to be dominated by the presence of the Spirit, but the Spirit of God also speaks four times of the One who has been taken up into heaven, as though it is He who is to give character to the whole position in Christianity.

JHH Is that why immediately after the Lord says, “Ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you,” He brings in the thought of witness? It says, “And ye shall be my witnesses.”

AJG Yes, exactly.

SP You said just now that the Holy Spirit would speak of Christ at all times and not of ourselves. Say a little more on that.

AJG The Lord said of the Comforter in John 16, “He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and shall announce it to you.” Then He says, “All things that the Father has are mine; on account of this I have said that he receives of mine and shall announce it to you.” But the Spirit does not only speak of Christ. He glorifies Christ, but then there are the things of Christ, the things of the Spirit, the things that are above. There is a great range of things that the Holy Spirit will speak of, but He certainly will not make anything of ourselves, or in any way allow the bringing in of the first man.

MSS Would it be necessary for the Holy Spirit to speak of Himself sometimes?

AJG Yes, as under the direction of the Lord. The Lord said of the Comforter, “He shall not speak from himself, but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak.” And therefore, if the Spirit is speaking about Himself, it is obviously because the Lord sees the need of it, and the Spirit speaks as under direction from the Lord; that is the wonderful place He has taken in the economy; that He has come down to the earth to be at the disposal of the Man whom God has set at His right hand.

AY Would you say the character of the service of the Spirit is to this end, to bring forward Christ at all times. I notice the great theme of the apostle’s ministry amongst men was Christ and the resurrection.

AJG Well, quite so. And then of course when it is a question of the Spirit speaking to the saints He speaks in relation to Christ and the assembly. That is there are the things of Christ, and the things of the Spirit, and the things that are above. So that we do not want to be rigid in our thoughts and say that the Spirit will speak only of Christ personally, because that is not right. He speaks of the things of Christ, and then, “All things that the Father has are mine.” So there are the Father’s things: “All the treasure of his master was under his hand,” it says of the servant in Genesis 24.

CB Would the features of Christ Himself be set forth in His witnesses, not only what they say, but certain features exemplified in them?

AJG No doubt that is so. We see that in the Acts, in chapter 4 it says of Peter and John, “they recognised them that they were with Jesus,” and then we see the same thing of course with Stephen very manifestly. So it is clear that one thing the Spirit has in mind is that the testimony should be accredited by those who have part in it.

MSS Is there any significance in the word “assembled” being used in verse 4? “Being assembled with them.”

AJG And we get it again in verse 21. So it is clear that the Lord had the thought of the assembly before Him from the very outset. It says, “It is necessary therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us, all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up.” And then that verse you referred to, verse 4, refers to the forty days, “being assembled with them commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem.” So from the beginning of His ministry, the Lord was putting the idea of assembling into the minds of those who were companying with Him.

MSS That characterises the day in which Christianity was inaugurated here, would you say?

AJG Yes, exactly, the assembly is the great vessel that God has in mind. This is a unique period, this two thousand years. It says, that prophets who prophesied, inquired what time it was that they were speaking of, and it was revealed to them that it was to us and not to themselves. And it says that angels desire to look into it. So all that is told us to impress us with the special importance, the uniqueness, of this period during which the assembly is being formed.

RS His being assembled with them - do you think it would suggest that He was teaching them to assemble?

AJG I think so. As to what He taught them we do not know, but He was accustoming them to the idea of assembling, and no doubt He would tell them how to assemble.

MSS Would the teaching in verse 3 give character to that? Would it have assembling in view?

AJG I think it has, because the kingdom of God which has in mind moral formation in us by the Spirit is very necessary if we are to learn to assemble. The kingdom of God involves that we become subjugated.

RS So many different individuals with so many different temperaments would need the sphere of the kingdom to subdue each individually, would you say?

AJG Exactly. There is to be that work of subjugation and control, and then the persons thus subdued become merged in the power of the Spirit into one entity.

AT Would the baptism of John be a landmark approved of God?

AJG Oh, well it would. Beginning from the baptism of John. The baptism of John was the beginning of the Lord’s public testimony. That is why it is brought in here. Of course it has a moral bearing upon ourselves because the baptism of John was a baptism of repentance involving the acceptance on the part of those who were subject to it of the setting aside really of the first man. And morally that was what was involved.

RS Does it include the axe laid to the root of the tree?

AJG To the root of the tree. Exactly. That is a thing, I suppose, you never find in nature, do you? The axe applied to the root of the tree. It may go fairly low down on the trunk, but you do not get it applied to the root of the tree. But God goes to the root of matters.

RAE Is that what you meant when you said earlier that the Spirit of God does not attach Himself to us?

AJG Exactly, the flesh is very subtle, and I think if we analyse our thoughts, we sometimes will find that while we would not say it in so many words, that is what is in our minds, that the Spirit is going to attach Himself to us, and give us certain ability and so on. But really the Spirit in His faithfulness is going to set aside anything of self-confidence or anything of that sort, so that the power may be only of God.

RAE Would you say that in 1 Corinthians 1, the apostle is really laying the axe to the root of the tree, so that we might have the Spirit in chapter 2?

AJG Yes, quite so.

WH The first man must go completely?

AJG Well, we all accept that as truth, but the Spirit is here to make it good in us, and that is why it is important for us to study the features of Jesus, the One who has been taken up. We may come to that a little later on in our readings, but one might notice just now that when Peter speaks on the day of Pentecost he quotes in full the last four verses of Psalm 16. He calls attention to that Psalm, and that Psalm delineates the features of Jesus, the Man who has been taken up. So that it is well for us to study the features of the One who has been taken up into heaven, for that is to give character to the assembly.

WH That is why it says, “This Jesus” several times in this chapter and chapter 2.

AJG This Jesus. Exactly. They all knew what Jesus had been. The disciples, at any rate, did.

VB In connection with what you said about the Spirit not making anything of us, do you think it would be worked out in 2 Corinthians 4, “We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God and not from us?”

AJG Yes, indeed, that is a matter to be faced by any who wish to serve, and it is right that all should wish to serve, for there is something for everybody to do. At the same time if any wish to serve they should be prepared to face that, that there are certain moral conditions that God looks for, and certain exercises will be brought in in order to bring about those conditions. That is pre-eminently so with Paul for God rolled in death upon him so that He despaired even of life, so that he should not trust in himself.

MSS Does that involve the truth of circumcision as Paul speaks of it?

AJG Yes, that is so.

LAC Do we not assemble in the light of the fact that the first man has been removed, and as thus assembled the Spirit of God, whose authority is recognised should then govern our movements in assembly, and also maintain us in the light of the removal of the first man?

AJG I am sure of that. The Spirit is always true to Christ and His death. The two go together.

EM-s Is that connected with verse 3, “presented himself living after he had suffered, with many proofs”?

AJG Yes. He presented Himself living during the forty days; I believe that is to impress them, as another has said, with the idea of spirituality, and also with the idea that spiritual things are substantial. You see, the Lord moved about amongst them for forty days but the world never saw Him during that time. It was a spiritual condition that had now come in. And we are to become accustomed to spiritual conditions, the Spirit having come, and yet we are to realise that they are real and substantial. I do not mean to say that they are visible, but I think the Lord is seeking to help us, not merely to hold things in faith, but to be conscious of the reality of things in the Spirit.

FC Would you open up the last part of verse 5 on the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

AJG Well, it says in 1 Corinthians 12, “in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free, and have all been given to drink of one Spirit.” I think it is the way that the saints, of different temperaments and different measures of natural ability and all that kind of thing, are all enabled to merge together in one vessel, having the same thoughts and the same feelings and so on. It is the power of the Spirit only that can do it. God Himself, in the Spirit, effects this. It says, “Whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free.” The Jew would be the religious man, the Greek would be the learned man, and the bond or free would refer to differences in social status. All these things may be said to be in persons constituting the assembly, but as the Holy Spirit is recognised, all these things go out of sight. Natural distinctions disappear, and one vessel characterised by divine power, and the liberty and intelligence that the Spirit gives, is seen.

MSS Would the fact that the baptism of John is mentioned just before it suggest the fact that there is a certain moral state which must precede the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

AJG Yes, I think so. It will be found that both Peter and Paul, in the 10th and 13th chapters of the Acts, bring in the baptism of John, as though they recognise it as a necessary moral basis.

RS So that when Paul went to Ephesus and found twelve men there, who had received the testimony and ministry of John’s baptism, he just took them on from that point.

AJG Yes, he recognised that the foundation was there, but what was needed now was the Holy Spirit, and their knowledge of having the Holy Spirit.

SW Is one viewed as in the kingdom without having the Spirit?

AJG No, I do not think so, not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven is referred to in Matthew’s gospel as covering the public position in what we call Christendom, that is, all that publicly acknowledges Jesus as Lord, whether it is vital or not. Christianity talks about the year of our Lord, so that there is a public recognition of Jesus as Lord, although, alas, very many are not in it vitally. And the kingdom of heaven refers to that I think. But the kingdom of God, as a rule at any rate in Scripture, is the vital thing; it is those who are under the sway of the Holy Spirit.

RS So that Matthew that gives the kingdom of heaven, tells us of ten virgins - five wise and five foolish.

AJG Yes, quite so.

AY Romans in speaking of the kingdom of God says it is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

AJG Yes, exactly.

HAL Is there any importance attached to the fact that one was selected to complete the number of the apostles before the Holy Spirit came?

AJG I suppose it was necessary that there should be the complete number of the apostles before the Holy Spirit came. And it is remarkable that Peter moved in extraordinary intelligence even before the Spirit came, referring to the scripture in the Psalms and bringing it forward that it was necessary that another should be appointed because the Psalm says, “Let another take his overseership.” But the matter of times and seasons is important because the Lord said, “It is not yours to know times or seasons,

which the Father has placed in his own authority, but ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you.” So that the position is that we are left to go on in the testimony, meaning that it is a question of patience and of faith. The Lord Himself takes the ground of the Son not knowing the day or the hour, the Father having reserved this in His own authority. So that it means that we are left to go on in patience. The Lord speaks of the word of His patience, as though He maintains that attitude.

MSS Would you say we are witnesses of the crucified Christ, referred to, the world not having seen Him during the forty days.

AJG We are witnesses to the fact that the crucified Christ is exalted in heaven. I think that is the subject of testimony, that He is exalted in heaven. It means that we are to be identified with the One who was crucified, but the subject of testimony is that He is exalted in heaven.

EM-e Is that the kind of preaching that Paul preached at Athens - Jesus and the resurrection?

AJG Well, we do not know how far he went, of course, but he certainly went as far as the resurrection. But he also announced that he was ordained to judge. It is at Athens he says that God has “appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he has given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead.” So that there is a great deal in the resurrection of Jesus - God is marking out that Man, as the One to be in supreme exaltation and authority and the One to judge. All that is involved in the fact that God has raised up Jesus from among the dead.

HLH Occupation with times and seasons would tend to lower the tone of testimony would it not? It is the Lord’s return, really, that marks the termination of this period of testimony. It begins from the time He was taken up until the time He returns.

AJG And we are just to go on in patience, not knowing exactly. No doubt the Spirit will give an inkling as to when the Lord’s coming is near, and I think He has begun to work with the saints already in that connection. But at the same time our outlook is just to go on. The Lord says with regard to those who have been entrusted with feeding the saints, “Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.” And in regard of all He says this, “Blessed are those servants whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching,” Luke 12: 43, 37.

HLH I was suggesting that it would give a tone of urgency to the testimony, would it not? The fact that the Lord’s return is uncertain.

AJG Quite so. Therefore we cannot say that we have another year. The question is that we only have today really.

ELE The Lord Himself takes up the ground of not knowing, is it not very lowly and humble of Him?

AJG Quite so.

ELE Do you think the Revelation supposes that the Father made known to Him at a later date? It says, “Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him.” There seems to be something in the opening up of the day that is coming.

AJG But perhaps not the hour exactly, not the precise day or hour.

RS But a statement like that, the Lord saying that the Father has reserved that in His own power and He not knowing - is not a statement like that to emphasise the perfection of His manhood?

AJG I think so. It is a question as to whether we can really comprehend it, but we just accept it. There it is.

HAL The tribulation and kingdom and patience are linked together, and patience would take account of that fact, that he is waiting? He also is waiting.

AJG Yes, I think so, because He speaks of, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience.” As though throughout the whole period of waiting and the Lord’s patience He is speaking, and will continue to speak and we are to be marked by keeping the word of His patience.

RS Is it not the case that others are getting blessing in the gospel during the time of patience and serving?

AJG Yes indeed, and do you not think that God intends that every thought regarding the assembly should find an answer among the saints before the Lord comes? It may be only in a few but He intends that there should be an answer in the assembly to every thought of His.

RS I believe that.

ELE He will credit it to all - the whole assembly.

AJG Yes, quite so.

AY You said something a little while ago about the upper room, but have you got anything to say about the city (verse 13)? “And when they were come into the city they went up to the upper chamber.”

AJG I think it is to be noticed that they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called the mount of Olives. It is near Jerusalem. And when they were come into the city they went up to the upper chamber. So that the position of the saints as in the city, that is in the world where Christ has been crucified, is that they are placed in it by God for the testimony’s sake, but they are not to be of it. So that their interests of life are in the upper room, which is in the city but above the level of what is going on around. And then the secret of their power is the mount of Olives. The mount of Olives is a mountain, that is it is on the earth, and yet it is an elevation, above the level of the earth; and a place that you can resort to. It is really the resource we have in the Spirit, we can withdraw into the realm of the Spirit. So the Lord always resorted to the mount of Olives.

AY I was thinking of that, immediately after the Supper, it says, “And when they had sung an hymn they went out into the mount of Olives.”

AJG Yes, quite so.

AY I wonder if it would be suggested in that that the position must be maintained in the light of the mount of Olives?

AJG Yes, and it is from the mount of Olives that they come into the city. The Lord set the example as we get in the end of Luke 21, “by day he was teaching in the temple, and by night, going out, he remained abroad on the mountain called the mount of Olives.” And then in the morning He returned to the temple. As though that was His manner of life in connection with His testimony, that in the day time He was amongst men and in the night time He withdrew to the mount of Olives.

SP Would you say that is the sphere of the Spirit to which the saints would resort?

AJG The mount of Olives is the sphere of the Spirit. It is a question of availing ourselves, through exercise, of what we have in the Holy Spirit. So that we are renewed, as it says, “renewed day by day.”

HLH So it is a suggestion that while the Lord had gone on high and they would miss Him, yet they had a resource in the Spirit typically that they could draw from.

AJG Exactly; and they were to draw from it too, so they come into the city from there.

HLH It is significant in that way that it is the first thing mentioned after they moved into the faith system. The Lord had gone out of sight.

AJG Yes. It is essential.

LAC Would the upper room suggest to our minds a place of resort and would it bear a different character from the thought of the mount of Olives?

AJG I think the upper room would be more what we find amongst the saints, so that we find our own company. And our life and interests are heavenly, they are not characterised by the things of the world. So in connection with the upper room it says, there were Peter and John and James and so on; “these gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brethren,” so they were all present, and then it speaks of a crowd of names; each one has a name, so it is the saints in their personality and dignity. Our names are written in heaven.

HOE Are the city and the mount of Olives then individual, and the upper room collective? I do not mean that it is only individual, but you were alluding to the Lord in the day in the city, and in the night in the mount of Olives, does that all connect with our individual position now, that we find ourselves amongst the brethren in the upper room?

AJG I think the city is the place of testimony and therefore it would be both individual and collective. I mean every day we are in the place of testimony, and that is individual in one sense, but then also we are in the testimony collectively as in principle, the assembly of God in Bridgetown, and as committed to the fellowship of God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

HOE The upper room is in the city then?

AJG The upper room is in the city, but not characteristically of it.

MSS The assembling of the Lord with them as you said is spiritually connected more with the upper room than with the mount of Olives?

AJG Yes, I think that would be right.

MSS I am thinking of 1 Corinthians and the way assembling is spoken of there.

AJG Although, of course, we cannot divide them in too hard and fast a way, because when we are assembled we want to know what the gain of the mount of Olives is, what there is in the Holy Spirit.

BA We sometimes sing, “With Thee we rise on high”; would that enter into it?

AJG Well, that is possible in the Spirit. But now - we read the first four verses in chapter 2, and one was specially thinking of, “there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing and filled all the house where they were sitting.” That is, the divine thought as set out at the outset was that the Spirit should fill the whole position, the whole assembly.

ELE Is it like Moses of whom we read that he could not go into the tabernacle for the glory of the Lord filled it. God took it on Himself.

AJG Quite so. As regards ourselves we are made suitable for the presence of God, and we ought to be equal to it. But the thought is, I think, that the Spirit of God intends to fill us so that there should not be any room for anything else.

ELE Quite so, nothing of the flesh then.

AJG No, quite so.

RS So far as we are concerned you would say we are privileged to live in the day when redemption has already been accomplished.

AJG That is it. So that we are made suitable for the presence of God, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

HAL Is that why it says, “and it sat upon each one of them? The thought of complacency?

AJG It is very significant that it says, the Spirit “filled all the house where they were sitting,”

but it says also that He sat upon each one of them, as though each one is to come under the sense of the presence of the Spirit.

ELE Immediately they “began to speak” - they spoke.

AJG Yes, it is speaking that is in mind here.

RAE Would the filling of the house involve that there is what is needed for anything that might arise?

AJG I believe that is right, that is developed in 1 Corinthians 12, where what the Spirit is and the variety of His operations are enlarged upon, as it says, “For to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, ...to another prophecy,” and so on. So that whatever the occasion requires is there in the Spirit. The Spirit does not make everything of one brother, but all is there in the assembly. Whatever is required is there in the Spirit.

ELE Hence the necessity of waiting and recognising what the Spirit may do.

AJG Yes, quite so.

RS So the more we learn to recognise the Spirit the more we would learn to make room for one another?

AJG Exactly. It is not a question of one brother thinking that he has been given a place of leadership and must do everything, for that is not the Spirit’s mind. A brother may have a place of leadership, and if he has, he is responsible to do so with diligence, according to Romans 12, but it is not the Spirit’s way to make everything of one brother. To one is given one thing, to another is given another thing.

HN So that in 1 Corinthians 12: 7, it says, “To each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit.”

AJG It is for the good of the whole, and it has impressed one lately that each one of us carries about with him in his own body a witness to what God has in mind in the assembly, for the human body is a wonderful witness to the working of love. All the members in the body work unselfishly for the good of the whole, and if it is in a healthy condition every member is functioning. And many members are entirely unseen, and never are seen, and yet they continue functioning, although they never get any recognition maybe. It is a remarkable picture of love working in the assembly.

LBl As to those members that are not seen, would Joseph and Matthias come in here as available for what was required?

AJG Yes, they are available, and the Lord exercises sovereign choice and He chooses Matthias. We get the impression that possibly the other apostles thought that Joseph called Barsabas was the better of the two, because he is mentioned first, and called Barsabas, and had been surnamed Justus, there is quite a lot said about him, but then the Lord comes in and selects Matthias, and they accept it without any difficulty.

MSS Would “they were all together in one place” link with what you refer to about the body? It leads to unity, I mean, if the Spirit has liberty?

AJG Well, yes, I think it only states the fact that they were all together in one place, but there is great need to be together in affection: that is what the Spirit of God is labouring for.

HAL This emphasises the house, does it not? And that is the first thing we come to, the thought of the house rather than the body.

AJG Yes, quite so. So the body is more an underlying thought. It seems to me the truth of the body underlies every aspect in which the assembly is viewed.

LAC You remarked very helpfully that the Spirit of God is always seen faithful to Christ and His death. Would the mention here in verse 3 of the fire and of the parted tongues, bear out your remark?

AJG Yes, I think the fact that He appeared as tongues shows that what was in mind was that there was to be speaking in testimony, but then He came upon them as fire, obviously involving that there is that which has to be kept under, set aside. That is, the Spirit is not going to make any room for the flesh, and hence He comes in in that character of fire.

AY Have you got anything in mind as to verse 4, “And began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth.”

AJG The Spirit gave them that power. The Spirit for the moment was setting aside what came in at the tower of Babel.

WT The Holy Spirit descended upon the Lord as a dove - quite a contrast to the parted tongues of fire.

AJG It is important to keep the contrast in mind. There was nothing in the Lord to disturb the holy sensitiveness which the dove would suggest, but the fire would suggest power for the setting aside of all that was unsuitable to God. According to Leviticus 23 two wave loaves baken with leaven were presented to God. Those who are not free from sin actually can still be presented to God because the fire has done its work, that is sin in the flesh is rendered inactive by the power of the Holy Spirit.

RS That is very helpful.

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