MOVEMENT IN THE TRUTH

MOVEMENT IN THE TRUTH

John 16: 12, 13; Numbers 9: 15 - 23; Numbers 10: 1 - 10

AJG I suppose what the Lord says about the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, in verse 13 of chapter 16 of John’s gospel, is one of the most important statements regarding His presence with us, that is that He is here to guide us into all the truth, the idea of guiding involving that we do not get into all the truth all at once, but are led from one point to another in the apprehension of it. But the presence of the Spirit here with the saints has in mind that all the saints should move together. That is, the divine thought is that the whole assembly should be led into the truth - all the truth. And I think that is suggested typically in the scripture in Numbers 9, where you have the whole of God’s people contemplated as constantly in movement, but in movement with periods in between when they were stationary. That is, there was movement and then an encampment and then a further movement and a further encampment, and so on. And each time they encamped the tabernacle had to be set up so that God could be served according to His requirement, and then it had to be taken down when they moved and set up again in a new position, the same tabernacle but in a new light. And the tabernacle system is really a type of the whole system of truth in relation to which God has come out, and in relation to which His people are to serve Him; and hence, every time there was movement on the part of the cloud the whole position had to be taken down and then it had to be set up again, exactly the same system of truth, the same tabernacle with all its parts, but in a new light, in a new position. And I think all that is typical of the way the Spirit of truth guides into all the truth. The cloud, it says, covered the tabernacle of the tent of testimony, the cloud being the evidence of the presence of God with His people. God constantly came down in the cloud, He did so to speak with Moses at the entrance of the tent in Exodus 33. And when there was a crisis the cloud constantly appeared. So the cloud represents the presence of God with His people, and for us that answers to the presence of the Spirit amongst us.

HLH Would the new position that the tabernacle was in from time to time represent then some feature of the truth that is freshly apprehended?

AJG It would be the result of that. That is, the movement of the cloud involves the opening up of some fresh feature of the truth, and then as the result of that the whole system has to be recast in our minds as affected by that new feature of the truth that has been brought out.

HLH So the many things which the Lord said He had yet to say to them would encompass the whole scope of the truth, would it?

AJG I think so, but then He says, “Ye cannot bear them now,” as though all waited for the presence of the Spirit for the fulness of God’s thoughts to be opened up.

VB I do not quite understand what you mean by the tabernacle having to be recast each time. What is involved in that?

AJG Well, just to consider the type for the moment, when the cloud moved the priests had to cover the ark and the other vessels that were in the holiest, and the Levites had to come in and take down the tabernacle, all the curtains, all the boards, all the pegs, everything had to be taken down, and it all had to be carried until the cloud stopped again, and when it came to a resting place then the whole thing had to be set up again. It was the same tabernacle in all its parts but set up in a new position. Well now, I think the application of that to us is this, that we have got the truth, you might say, in broad outline, in connection with which God is to be served. God was served by His people in the tabernacle. But then if there is some fresh movement in relation to the truth, the Spirit of God opening up something that requires movement on our part to follow it up, then we have to see how that fits in to the system of truth, and adjust and regulate our thoughts in relation to it. The system of truth remains the same, but there is a fresh feature that we have not hitherto apprehended, and that has got to be taken up and the whole system reviewed in the light of it.

JS You are speaking now in connection with the present ministry?

AJG Yes, quite so, but it has been so all along. Ever since the Lord began to recover the truth this kind of exercise has been going on.

HLH What part have the trumpets in this? Would the calling together there in Numbers 10 and the setting forward be anything to do with the encampment and the journeyings?

AJG When the camps were to set forward, it was the responsibility of the priests to blow the trumpets. That would mean that the priests had to accept responsibility in a peculiar way, to keep their eye on the cloud so as to observe its movements, and also that any bringing of the matter before the saints with a view to causing them to move must be done in a priestly way.

JS You mean it would not be presented in an official character before the saints?

AJG No, not in an official character but handled in a way that shows that those who are handling it are priestly, that they have to do with God characteristically.

CB It kept the people, you would say, in continual exercise to follow the movement of the tabernacle?

AJG Exactly, and especially the priests, because it was the priests’ responsibility to sound the trumpets when the cloud moved.

CB That means that a priestly element should be in every locality?

AJG Exactly.

JS You mean then that the priests have the truth for the moment, in that sense?

AJG Yes. The priests are those who are spiritual, those who are characteristically near to God, and you can easily see that if we begin to become aware that the Lord is bringing out some fresh feature of the truth, all those who are priestly among us will be on the alert, and will be concerned to understand what it is that the Lord is saying. They may not understand it all at once but it is their responsibility to get to God about it so that they do understand it, and that they may be able to give a right lead to the saints generally.

CB So the resting was to give the saints an opportunity to enter into the movement?

AJG Yes, quite so, but also when they rested they kept the charge of Jehovah, which means that the whole system of service was to be taken up afresh. So that every time there had been a fresh movement and then they rested the service of God had to be taken up afresh, but taken up in the light of what they had now been brought to.

HOE It says somewhere, “The priest’s lips should keep knowledge.”

AJG Yes, in Malachi.

SH What is the idea of the blowing of the trumpets?

AJG I suppose it would be bringing the matter to the notice of the saints. The blowing of the trumpets would be an authoritative sound for all the people of God to hear.

VB So, would you say, if we are to move intelligently in the service of God, we have to keep pace with the light that the Spirit is bringing before us now?

AJG That is exactly what one has in mind, and that is to be the exercise with us all the time we are here. This is a wilderness setting in Numbers. All the time that we are in the wilderness we have got to be on the alert because the Spirit wants to lead us into all the truth. He is not going to be content with just part of the truth.

TG It says here that “on the day that the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle of the tent of testimony; and at even it was upon the tabernacle as the appearance of fire, until the morning.” What would we gather by that?

AJG I suppose we may regard it that the whole period that we are here, the Lord being absent, is morally the night. That is to say, the cloud was upon the tabernacle in the appearance of fire. I think that is to remind us that “Our God” it says, “is a consuming fire.” That is, God maintains that character while we are in the wilderness, because the wilderness is a scene of evil by which we are liable to be very easily affected, and therefore God would remind us that He has that character of fire that would consume everything that is contrary to Himself. The Holy Spirit would be with us in that character, He is the Holy Spirit.

TG Would that help us too in self-judgment?

AJG Yes, quite so, that is what is in mind, that we should be maintained in self-judgment as those who have part in the service of God.

AT So long as we are here the testimony is moving?

AJG That is the thought. So long as we are here in this scene the testimony remains in movement. It is characteristically a moving system, not that there are not times when it is not stationary, so that the truth apprehended should be consolidated and made good in our souls, but at the same time it is characteristically a system of movement. And I think we can see the value of that, because that ensures that the service of God will never become cast in a mould, it will always be fresh.

WH That is why it says, “So it was continually”? (verse 16).

AJG Quite so.

JHH Is that why the Lord said of the Spirit, “Whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak,” as though to suggest that He would not always be speaking the same thing?

AJG Exactly, and to show too that the Spirit is here in the attitude of dependence - dependence, I suppose, on the Lord, which is a wonderful thing: the Spirit here dependent, in His ministry, on the Lord on high dependent on a Man. But here it says, “According to the commandment of Jehovah the children of Israel journeyed, and according to the commandment of Jehovah they remained encamped.” All was by the commandment of Jehovah.

RAE That follows upon verse 17, where it says, “When the cloud rose from the tent then the children of Israel journeyed; and at the place where the cloud stood still, there the children of Israel encamped.” Is the commandment of Jehovah separate from that or does the movement of the cloud constitute that commandment?

AJG I think the movement of the cloud would constitute the commandment to the people, but then in John 16 we find that the Spirit “shall not speak from himself,” so that He Himself is under command. “Whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak.” The Lord ministered on the same principle according to the twelfth of John, He says, “I have not spoken from myself, but the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak” (verse 49). So that the Lord had spoken on that principle and now the Spirit speaks on that principle.

JHH That is very helpful because the Lord says in John 14, that “I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter,” showing that He would be moving on the same lines as the Lord Himself was moving when He was here.

AJG Quite so. And I think as we realise that the Spirit speaks on this principle of not speaking from Himself, but “whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak,” it will make us all the more dependent. It will enforce the same principle with us to have an alert ear to hear what the Spirit is saying, because He speaks according to what the Lord has for His people.

EB Would the moving and encamping here depend on how we listen to what the Spirit is saying, to be able to move and to know when to stop?

AJG Yes, I think so. The paragraph starts with, “On the day that the tabernacle was set up,” and it was set up in order that God might be served in it. It was not set up just as a kind of picture of abstract truth, but it was set up in order that God might be served, Exodus 40 stresses that. It is very interesting to notice what it says in Exodus 40, verse 26, for example, “he,” that is Moses, “put the golden altar in the tent of meeting before the veil. And he burnt on it fragrant incense.” And then verse 29, “he put the altar of burnt-offering at the entrance to the tabernacle of the tent of meeting, and offered on it the burnt-offering and the oblation.” And then verse 30, “he set the laver between the tent of meeting and the altar, and put water in it for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet out of it.” There were not only all the items of the tabernacle brought into their place, but they were actually being used, they were functioning. There was the altar of incense, and incense offered on it, the altar of burnt offering, and the burnt offering and oblation offered on it, and the laver, and the priests washing at it. So that the whole thing was not just set up as a picture, but as a living system that was operating in the service of God.

LBr What is the Spirit bringing before us today in the ministry, the greatness of the assembly?

AJG Yes, that is one thing that the Spirit has been greatly stressing of recent years, and another thing that the Spirit has been stressing is the Spirit’s own personal glory and the importance of His own presence with us. And the importance of our knowing Him, as the Lord said, “But ye know him for he abides with you and shall be in you.” I believe what that has in mind is that there should be definite freshness and increasing substance characterising our movements in the assembly. And also that we should be fitted in view of what may yet develop in the way of opposition, so that in the consciousness that God Himself is with us we should be ready for anything, and feel that we are ready for anything.

RS The stationary time then is just as important as the moving time, because the stationary time is to make good what we have been having before, is it not, so as to prepare us for the next move?

AJG Yes, and also I believe it is important to notice what it says in verse 19, that “when the cloud was long upon the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of Jehovah, and journeyed not.” I understand the charge of Jehovah refers to the whole system of service. The charge of Jehovah was the responsibility of seeing that all His requirements were fulfilled, so that meant that whenever the cloud remained stationary the people encamped and put up the tabernacle and immediately engaged in the service of God. For us that would mean that the service of God is always in view, but as affected by the latest movement of the cloud.

EMe So that you would say, what had been gained by the movement all enters into the service and enriches it?

AJG Yes, I think so. Take the truth as to the sonship of Christ, when that was clarified for us, it greatly enlarged our outlook as to the way God had come out in revelation and the relatively subordinate place that the Son and also the Spirit had taken with a view to the revelation, and to respond to it, and at the same time it greatly increased our appreciation of the personal glory of Christ; but it had a great effect upon our outlook upon the truth. And so I am sure, as we apprehend what the Lord has in mind in the present stressing of the Holy Spirit, we shall find that that, too, will have a great effect upon the service of God, not merely as to personally addressing the Spirit, although that, I have no doubt whatever, has a place in it, but I believe more particularly in the definite recognition of the Spirit at every part of the service, as giving His own character of freshness to it.

SP Your thought then is that we should give more heed to the recognition of the Spirit and to His movements amongst us in the assembly?

AJG Yes, we have to come to it individually in a much greater way I am sure, and we have to come to it in the assembly in a much greater way than we have ever known it; because the Spirit is able to set us together, unify us as we often say; so that in result, as unified, it is not one brother getting up and giving expression to his thoughts, and another brother getting up and giving expression to his thoughts, but it is the same thoughts and feelings moving in the company as a whole, and one brother being used by the Spirit to give expression to what is moving at one moment, and another brother being used by the Spirit to give expression to what is moving at another moment. But it is the whole company in movement, you might say.

RS Is it the same principle as bowing the hearts of the men of Judah as one man?

AJG “One man” - quite so.

LBr Regarding the Spirit in this way then it would remove formality from us?

AJG That is a great thing. During this period of thirty-nine years that they had the tabernacle in the wilderness, God was being served all that time, but yet He was being served at different places, each place representing, you might say, a different outlook.

EB So if the service of God is to be enriched it all depends on the Spirit’s place in us and with us?

AJG Yes, it does.

CB Would you say we have had some experience of that? If we were to take a backward look we could see the difference where the Lord has brought out the truth, and the saints have followed the truth. And today the service of God is taken up in a light in which it was not known before.

AJG Exactly.

JHH So that this constant movement and encampment, would it not suggest to our minds that God intends that we should not become stagnant in our exercises but there should be constant fresh movement with us? The service of God is maintained in freshness in that way.

AJG Yes, that is what is in mind.

VB Who would Moses represent here in the last verse of chapter 9, “They kept the charge of Jehovah according to the commandment of Jehovah through Moses.”

AJG I suppose in most of the books of Moses, from Exodus onwards, Moses usually represents the Lord. You might say that the commandment of Jehovah through Moses would be the mind of God, but administered by the Lord. The Lord is the great administrator of things for God.

CM Is it not significant that all this movement was in the wilderness, a place of education?

AJG Yes, quite so, and the service of God is in the wilderness. I think we perhaps do not sufficiently realise the great value of the fact that the Lord is maintaining the service of God, in some measure of suitability to God, in such a world as this is, a wilderness. It is a wilderness because the Lord is not here, and there is nothing in the world to support the spiritual life of the saints save what we have in the Spirit. So that it is a wilderness, a barren scene morally, and yet in such a scene the service of God is being maintained in the holiness that befits it and in some measure of liberty and intelligence. Now that is a very great triumph for God.

JS We are in the wilderness, but according to God, would you say?

AJG Yes, exactly. The first ten chapters of Numbers are the wilderness according to God, then the next section of Numbers is the wilderness in which we find out what flesh is.

JS I was trying to get your point, and I think that it is well for us to understand the greatness of the present time; it is the Spirit’s day.

AJG It is the Spirit’s day, and that means that the whole position here on earth until the Lord comes, is in the charge of the Spirit Himself. That is, One of the Persons of the Godhead has come down to take charge of the position and to be with us.

JS And do you think He is working to the intent, as it is said, “The Spirit and the bride say, Come!”?

AJG Yes, I do.

JS So all that is going on in this present day is the greatness of what the Spirit is bringing before us?

AJG Yes, exactly, but then during this period when the bride is being prepared for Christ, led on, the period is being filled out with the service of God, which is what this part of Numbers has in view typically. The Lord Himself was supremely faithful to God as in this world, the faithful and true Witness, and constantly affording pleasure to God, and therefore the Spirit would labour to produce the same features in the saints now, in the assembly, that there should be faithfulness to God, and pleasure afforded to God.

SP Would you say that was what Moses said to Pharaoh, that they might serve God in the wilderness? And then that feature comes down to us in the present day?

AJG Yes, it does, quite so.

DLE Would you say the difficulty we have by thinking that the Holy Spirit is bringing Himself forward is overruled by these words that you read in the sixteenth of John, that if He receives words; so to speak, reverently, from the Lord as in this matter that has come before us recently, it would help us in speaking to or addressing the Holy Spirit?

AJG Yes, I think so. I think it is quite intelligible, it is a question of being guided into all the truth. You see, when the truth first began to be recovered in Mr. Darby’s time saints needed to be established in the grace of the name of Father. They had been brought up in a system of bondage and distance, so that they might have addressed God as Heavenly Father sometimes, but they addressed Him sometimes perhaps as Almighty God, and they were not in the liberty or nearness of the way in which God is revealed as Father, and that had to be established among the saints, and it was established. And then of more recent years, the Lord has been opening up by the Spirit the truth as to His own sonship, and that has been established among the saints. And now, if the Lord sees the need of our having a fuller acquaintance with the Holy Spirit and a better understanding of the place He fills in the economy, it is not at all surprising if the Lord is bringing forward ministry that is stressing the Holy Spirit, because it is a question of our being guided into all the truth, and being complete in our knowledge of God.

HLH The different lengths of time, many days and a few days, what do you think they suggest? During the many days that the cloud rested the charge was kept, if it was a few days they just encamped.

AJG Well, I suppose it just emphasises the need for constant alertness, for no one knew if it was going to remain many days or only a day.

HLH Do you think the period of many days would be determined by our readiness or otherwise to adapt ourselves to the truth or to receive it?

AJG I think it might well be that. So that the question whether there is movement again in a short time or not might well depend on the state the Spirit finds amongst the saints, their readiness or unreadiness to respond to His previous movement.

HEB You have in mind that whether the days be many or few, the service of God should not be allowed to lapse?

AJG Quite so, they kept the charge of Jehovah. But then the fact that sometimes it moved again after only a day, or at any rate it is provided that it might do that, would mean that the priests and all those who were spiritual would be on the alert constantly. Because if they were not on the alert the cloud might begin to move and they not see it.

WH Would that call for diligence on the part of the people of God?

AJG Yes, quite so, an attentive ear, so that the Lord says, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” and again “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.”

HLH On the other hand, would not the many days represent the whole period of time in which the Spirit is here, and the periods of a few days would represent distinctive features of the truth that have come to light during that time?

AJG Quite so, so that the position during the many days that the Spirit is here is that the charge of Jehovah is kept, and the service of God goes on.

EB While on the one hand the Spirit is with us, we should have an exercise to go in for all the truth?

AJG Well, yes, only we cannot in a sense get all the truth without the Spirit’s guiding, I mean, it is no use anticipating the Spirit, going before Him. The great thing is to follow up what He is saying and make good what He is giving us, and then we shall be led into all the truth in an orderly way.

HLH The Lord said that “ye cannot bear them now” - does it suggest the thing taken up with some exercise?

AJG Yes, I think it does.

HEB Our not being able to “bear them,” would that suggest that the Spirit in His presence and power serves us to give ability to take on the truth?

AJG Yes, I think it does. “When He is come, the Spirit of truth, He shall guide you into all the truth,” and that means that they would be able to bear it, and to follow it up.

CB How would it apply now? Would you say that we are not able to take in the truth all at once, but we have to depend on the Spirit to lead us, according to our exercises, into the truth?

AJG Well, yes, but on the other hand the Spirit is anxious to guide us into all the truth, so that it really depends on whether we have a ready mind, or whether our wills are active in opposition to it, or whether we are dilatory or careless in regard of it. But if we, on our part, want to follow on, then we shall find that the Spirit will help us into the understanding of it.

FM Why is commandment mentioned here, it says, “According to the commandment of the Lord they encamped and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed.” Why is it commandment?

AJG I think just to rule out any thought of the will of man in the matter, it is a question of the Lord.

HLH To remind us that these things are not taken on optionally.

AJG Quite so, a commandment involves that there is no option.

TG If there is a right state among the people, the Spirit is willing to lead us into all the truth?

AJG Yes, I am sure of that. But then a right state is maintained by us, and helped on, as we really get to God about things. Merely talking about them or thinking about them by itself will not help a bit towards it. But the more we are with God about the truth the more we are helped in our souls, because you cannot be with God and going on with any secret evil or anything that is of the character of untruth. And God requires truth in the inward parts. So that if we want to be helped on in the truth we have got to ponder what the Spirit is saying but we have also got to get to God about it.

CB So the importance of “Holy Spirit.” Would you say we have to correspond in our exercises and conditions to move in line with how He is presented, the Holy Spirit?

AJG Yes, I do. I think that is to stress that He requires holy conditions with those in whom He dwells.

RAE Would you say that those features were seen in Peter? The testimony, the tent of meeting was, so to speak, being taken down and put up in a fresh position in the tenth of Acts? And Peter was praying and also pondering over what he had seen.

AJG Yes, exactly. We were having it in the meetings recently, how he was led into the full light gradually, but he was patient and he was subject and dependent and therefore he was led into it.

LBr A brother might not address the Spirit but yet be following the light that the Spirit is bringing as to the greatness of the Spirit and His place in the assembly?

AJG Yes, quite so. But addressing the Spirit has place, but it is a question, I think, of the liberty and power that we have, and the liberty that the Spirit Himself would afford as occasion calls for it.

SH The expression “recognising the Spirit” is one commonly used, but it has been discovered is not so commonly understood. Would you tell us how this could be brought home to us?

AJG It is easy to use such expressions, but it may be they do not convey much sometimes, but in the tenth of Acts we read that “As Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him.” And then in the eleventh of Acts, when Peter is himself recounting it, he says, “The Spirit said to me.” He did not say, The Lord said to me, he said The Spirit said to me. You might say to Peter, How do you know it was the Spirit and not the Lord? Well, I do not know what Peter would have told you if you had asked him, but he knew. He was able to recognise whether it was the Spirit speaking to him or whether it was the Lord speaking to him. And all I can say is, if we want to develop in the ability to recognise the Spirit’s voice, we must get to the Lord about it and get to the Spirit about it, and I am sure They will help us, that is all I can say. It involves sensitiveness, as we have often said, of the Spirit’s presence, and that involves that we do not allow things that we know are displeasing to Him, “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God.”

SH So that as we are in the good of this then, our yieldingness to Him increases?

AJG Yes, I am sure of that, but He has His own way of making His presence a reality to us, so that we know what it is to have an impulse from the Spirit and to prove His support in the assembly as we take part maybe, and so on.

SH What do we learn from the silver trumpets which Moses commanded them to blow?

AJG Silver trumpets were used to give the warning when they were to move, and then they were also used for other purposes as well. I suppose they allude to the power to set the saints in movement or call them into exercise over matters. Whether they had got to assemble to the Lord, to Moses, or whether they had got to move, it is a question of the ability, you might say, to stir up the pure minds, and if need be the consciences and the affections of the saints, for whatever is required at the moment, whether it is to assemble to the Lord or whether it is to move forward and so on. But the great point in one’s mind was that they were to be blown by priests.

HEB And would the fact that they were silver have any bearing on their use?

AJG I think it does. There was that which suggested that God has rights over us in redemption. That is, there would be an appeal to the affections and a recognition of the rights of God over His people.

HEB That is helpful. That would enable us to use them according to the injunction.

AJG Yes.

RG Warfare is mentioned here in the ninth verse of chapter 10, “If ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before Jehovah your God.”

AJG Yes, well, we get examples in Chronicles of that, how they blew with trumpets and God came in for them, see 2 Chronicles 13: 12 - 17. After all, it is a very great lever that we can use in appealing to God, if the enemy is attacking, that the saints belong to Him, He has redeemed them to Himself by the blood of Christ and therefore it is not right that any enemy should have sway over them. You can appeal to God on those grounds, and you can appeal to the saints too. Paul says to the Corinthians, “Ye are not your own, for ye have been bought with a price; glorify now then God in your body.” He would stir them up as to conditions amongst them in that way.

VB You have in mind to say something more about verse 8, “the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an everlasting statute throughout your generations.”

AJG Well, it is very important if the attention of the saints is to be called to any fresh movement of the cloud that it should be done in a priestly way.

RAE In the third verse it says, “When they shall blow with them, the whole assembly shall gather to thee at the entrance of the tent of meeting.” Would that be the ability in those that are priestly to enable the saints to take up a right attitude as to any matter, as taking it up in relation to the Lord?

AJG Yes, I think so.

AY I wanted to ask something too about those same verses 3 and 4, it says, “And when they shall blow with them, the whole assembly shall gather to thee at the entrance of the tent of meeting,” and then, “if they blow with one, then the princes, the heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather unto thee.” What is the distinction there in those two verses?

AJG Well, verse 3 is evidently what we would speak of as an assembly matter. That is to say, there may be some sorrowful evil in our midst that has got to be dealt with by the assembly, and the consciences of all the saints have got to be aroused in relation to it, because that is one of the great objects in an assembly meeting, not merely to deal with the evil, nor merely to separate from an evil doer, but that every conscience among the saints should be awakened before God in regard of the evil. But then there may be matters that do not require the whole assembly to come together, but matters for those who are, as it says, princes, as, for instance, matters of care that have to be handled by brothers.

HLH There were several occasions when these trumpets were to be blown, it says in verse 7, “And when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not blow an alarm,” And then verse 9, “If ye go to war” an alarm must be blown, and then in verse 10, “And in the day of your gladness, and in your set feasts” and so on, “ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings” and so on. I was wondering what bearing that would have? You spoke of the trumpets representing the rights of God.

AJG Well, I suppose it is a good thing for us to recognise that we do belong to God, and that He has rights over us, so that in our days of gladness it is not a question simply of our own happiness but whether God has not a right to a portion from His people.

RS Besides the abundance of evil all around which is increasing, the general state of the Christian profession is stagnation, no particular concern as to the truth. Is it not all the more reason why those who are accustomed to following the truth should be diligent to do so and continue to do so in anything that may come forward, and get to God about it?

AJG Yes, I think so, for the assembly, it says, is the pillar and base of the truth. So that the whole truth is, in a sense, committed to the assembly. On the other hand, it is committed to the Spirit, He is the Spirit of truth. But really the assembly stands out in the world as the prominent expression of the truth as to God, and in support of it too. And therefore it shows how important it is for us to come into the truth, and then express it livingly by the way we conduct ourselves and the way we serve God, serving God in liberty and in dignity, and in intelligence and affection.

HEB So that we have the commandment in chapter 9 and a statute in chapter 10, so that whatever they represent, they would suggest the prescribed order in which God is to be served in connection with the truth. And the Spirit is the power for it, would you say?

AJG Yes. A commandment, of course, is imperative, but it might have application only to a particular time or set of circumstances, whereas the idea of a statute is that it is a commandment that is written down and therefore permanent. It is on the statute book. So this question of the silver trumpets and the use they made of them was a statute.

SH What may we learn from verse 5, “And when ye blow an alarm, the camps that lie eastward shall set forward”?

AJG And then it says, “And when ye blow an alarm the second time, the camps that lie southward shall set forward.” But it does not say that when ye blow an alarm the third time the camps that lie westward shall set forward. It does not say that, it rather suggests that two alarms are sufficient and that the other camps are to set forward in their order because the others are moving. So that we ought not to expect too much repetition of the truth before we move, what is suggested is that two trumpets should be sufficient.

TG Would Paul in calling the elders together in Acts 20, correspond with the priests blowing the trumpets that the rights of God might be recognised?

AJG I think that was more giving them a charge to care for the saints and to watch, and so on. I do not know that you would say that there was any blowing of the trumpets for the camps to move in that, as far as I see.

BA Do we not see that all around us there are those who are lagging behind? I was wondering if there are those who are not sufficiently keeping their eyes on the cloud and so on? When the cloud moves those who are keeping their eye on it will move, and those who are not will be left behind, would you not say so?

AJG Well, there is the danger of that, but I suppose how it worked out in the case of the children of Israel was that the priests blew an alarm first and the camp of Judah which lay eastward moved first, according to the divine ordering. And then the priests blew the alarm the second time and the camp of Reuben which lay southward moved next, but then I assume that the other camps would move in their proper order according to the divine commandment earlier in this book. So that even if they had not observed the cloud moving they surely would not fail to observe that the two other camps were moving. I mean, if I am slow at recognising what the Spirit is saying, at any rate, I ought to be able to observe that my brethren are moving, and I do not want to be left behind.

LBr How does that work out in Christendom today?

AJG Oh well, Christendom, of course, is in a sorry plight, because they are mixed up with that which entirely sets aside the Holy Spirit, and therefore you cannot expect movement with them until they get delivered from that system. You cannot expect movement from the saints in Christendom until they get free from that in which the Spirit is dishonoured.

CB I was wondering whether any of these trumpets were blown at Corinth by Paul. Do you think in connection with what he spoke about the Supper and so on, do you think that he was calling attention to commandment?

AJG Yes, I think so.

BA Paul says: “If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for war?” (1 Corinthians 14: 8). Would you tell us how that would be worked out?

AJG That shows the importance, if there is any desire to help the saints in relation to what the Spirit is saying, of handling the matter accurately and in a priestly way, and not giving an uncertain sound. But that particular scripture is more a question of preparing for battle. If there is conflict, we ought to be concerned to see what is really the point at issue, and make it clear to the saints, and not bring in side issues. If you bring in side issues you are making an uncertain sound, but if you make clear what the real issue is then you will help the saints greatly.

EMe What do we understand by the trumpets being of beaten work?

AJG Well, you get that in certain instances. I suppose it is to suggest the thought of exercise in order to be usable in this way. I mean, the trumpets in a sense, and the priests who blew them, are one idea, so that the beaten work, I think, would suggest a certain amount of exercise in order to be serviceable in this way.

HEB Are the movements of the camps, one camp moving and then another following, necessarily a public matter? Christendom is moving along with the systems of men, and I wondered if the truth that is being brought out by the Spirit of God at the present time is necessarily public, or whether it is connected with certain who are accustomed to light?

AJG It has a public bearing in the sense that the service of God is covered by it, and the service of God as carried on by us, is, or may be, public, that is to say, anyone can come in. And you hear from time to time of people who are dissatisfied with what they find in the systems, and they leave it, but they go to a certain meeting and their sensibilities tell them that that is not the place, and the Lord directs them to another meeting and they say to themselves, This is where the Lord is, they discern that there is what is living and fresh in the service of God. It is public in that sense.

EMe You were referring in another meeting to the golden calf. Would that be over against this, the indisposition to move, and having our own ideas in the service of God, cast in a mould?

AJG Yes, the golden calf was just that, it was made of golden earrings taken from the ears of the people, it is the idea of what is divine in the way of truth, which the gold represents, but it has not got any further than the ears, it has not really come down into the heart, and therefore it can be cast into a mould easily, and your idea of God becomes set in a fixed mould. And they would worship that and say, A feast to Jehovah. That is a picture of the condition in the Christian profession where the service of God takes on the character of a fixed, set system of service, with nothing living or fresh about it.

HEB You can understand therefore the value of recognising the Spirit?

AJG Well, exactly, because we can easily get into that kind of thing ourselves if we do not recognise the Spirit. We can say the same things over and over again if we are not watchful, if we are not in the Spirit.

AT I was noticing in chapter 9 that it is an extended period, either two days, or a month or many days, would you say that during that time we are given time for learning?

AJG Oh, yes, I think so. And it is just, I think, to impress us with the need for a spirit of dependence and alertness. We are not to move before the cloud, but we are to be careful not to lag behind when the cloud is moving.

RAE I wanted to ask if the idea of sovereignty would be seen in this passage, in this orderly recovery of the truth. It is a matter of divine sovereignty, is it not? I mean, the times of movement were uncertain, that was in God’s ordering?

AJG Yes.

RAE Then, also here, as to the actual movement, Jehovah selected, according to chapter 2, that the eastward camp should move first. Judah, in sovereignty - a right lead being given by spiritual men, would you say?

AJG Yes, quite so.