INDIVIDUAL STABILITY

INDIVIDUAL STABILITY

Matthew 5: 43 - 48; Matthew 6: 1 - 6; Matthew 7: 21 - 27; Matthew 16: 13 - 18

AJG What one had in mind was that these scriptures give us the thought of stability individually, so that we are not overcome by any principles or influences of evil, and then, invulnerability in connection with the assembly in chapter 16. It is clear that chapter 16 contemplates that Satan will be opposed to the assembly all the time, and opposed to it with all the resources of counsel and wisdom that he can draw upon, hades’ gates, I suppose, conveying some such idea as that, but the Lord says that He will build His assembly, “on this rock,” “and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.” But, in point of fact, we need to be built up in moral stability if Satan is to gain no advantage, and hence chapters 5, 6 and 7 of Matthew are so important because they indicate the lines on which we may be built up in moral stability. So that at the end of chapter 7, the Lord says, “Whoever therefore hears these my words and does them, I will liken him to a prudent man, who built his house upon the rock and the rain came down, and the streams came, and the winds blew” and so on, “and it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock.” In contrast to that, one who does not do the Lord’s words is likened to a foolish man who built on the sand. Hence we need to pay great attention to chapters 5, 6 and 7 of Matthew because they establish the lines on which we can be built up as morally stable. And that is essential if we are to fill our place in the testimony, and in the service of God, too, in the assembly. Otherwise we expose ourselves to the enemy and become the means of allowing him to get in in relation to the assembly. One could only read selected passages, of course, from chapters 5, 6 and 7, because they are long chapters, but it is really the whole of those chapters that are in mind, as constituting the principles, as I have said, on which moral stability can be built up in our souls.

CB You mean that all the principles of the kingdom are set out in these chapters?

AJG Yes, that is it, they are the principles of the kingdom of the heavens. It says at the beginning of chapter 5, that Jesus “went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him, and having opened his mouth he taught them.” So that they had to be withdrawn from the level of things here in order to obtain instruction from Christ. And He sat down, a deliberate matter with Him, to afford this teaching.

RS Would you tell us what is the meaning of the expression, “the kingdom of the heavens”?

AJG It refers, I suppose, to the rule of the Lord in heaven over those subject to Him on earth. Sometimes in Matthew’s gospel it embraces the whole profession, that is to say, all that outwardly acknowledges Jesus as Lord, whether it is real or not. But here in chapters 5, 6 and 7, I think it is what is genuine that is in view, it was the disciples of Jesus that went to Him and received instructions.

LAC Would it be that the mountain would suggest outwardly the thought of stability, that which God has in mind to establish in our own souls?

AJG Yes, I would think so. And the Lord went up a mountain so that He would withdraw His disciples, if they were to come to Him for instruction, from the level of this world. And that is very important, because we all are in danger of taking our standards from men, and from the world in which we move, and one of the first elements in this instruction is the Lord saying over and over again, “Ye have heard that it was said to the ancients” so and so, and then He says, “But I say unto you,” that is,

that as in the kingdom we are to understand that there is an entirely new standard, a new level of legislation, so to speak, which we are to learn from Christ.

RAE Because the One who is the King is a new order of Man entirely?

AJG Exactly. I think it is most important that we should keep that in mind, that whatever has been said in olden times, or whatever may be said amongst men, it is a question now in Christianity of what the Lord says, But I say unto you. It is an entirely new set of standards, so to speak, altogether, and new governing principles which are to be learned from Christ.

CBl “But I say unto you” would set forth the right of His position?

AJG Quite so.

AAT The Lord is speaking. Is His speaking continuous? That is, can we hear His voice today?

AJG Well, I would think so. But I think these three chapters are, in a sense, a complete setting out of the principles of the kingdom.

SW Would you say that the first thing that is necessary for us to arrive at is discipleship?

AJG That is an important matter. A disciple is one who learns from Christ. There is a close link between the thought of disciple and discipline, and teaching. The disciple is one who learns from Christ. And, of course, the thought of disciple also includes that we are publicly known as belonging to Christ and taking character from Him.

SW I suppose you are referring to what had come to light in the Acts, “they recognised them that they were with Jesus”?

AJG Yes, quite so.

LBr What would make these laws, so to speak, become easy to us? It says, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.”

AJG That is all met by this, “But I say unto you.” It is a question of what we learn in Christ. The Lord does not enjoin anything that cannot be learned in Himself.

AY Is “I say unto you” the direct opposite of what is being taught in the world, what the Lord now is teaching His disciples?

AJG That is just the point, I think. You will notice that it starts in verse 21 of chapter 5 and goes right down to the end of the chapter, the contrast between what was said to the ancients and what the Lord says, and in its application to us, I think, it is important to recognise that if what the Lord says is different from what men say, or different from the standards that are generally accepted among men, then our business is to adjust our standards by what the Lord says, and not by reference to what may be current among men.

VB In verse 45 He says, “That ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens.” Is that a point reached in His teaching?

AJG It is, a very important one, that we are to be the sons of our Father who is in the heavens. For it says, “He makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust.” That is to say, that God is not affected by the good or the evil of those on whom He bestows His blessings. What He does proceeds from Himself, from what He is, without reference to whether those Whom He blesses are good or evil.

HAL I was wondering if the first part, the beatitudes, are not the result of all this teaching?

AJG That would be so, I think. The Lord is there setting out abstractly the features of those who are blessed. He says, “Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens,” and “blessed they that mourn” and so on. In Luke He brings it down more personally to the disciples. He says, “Blessed are ye poor” - but here He is setting it out abstractly.

AT In Christianity we should not regard one as an enemy against another?

AJG No, quite so. But still, of course, we may have enemies, not among the saints, but we might have enemies in the world; the saints sometimes have. Not that the saints have provoked the enmity, but sometimes people are at enmity with the saints.

LBr And it is said to love them.

AJG Well, just as our brother has in mind, that we are to be sons of our Father which is in the heavens, that is, setting out what the Father is in a dignified way. Children set out the character of the Father, but that ye may be sons of your Father is, I think, particularly placing us in a dignified position.

HN Would you say there is grace for all this?

AJG There is, indeed. Nothing is required of the saints that there is not power for in the Spirit.

HN But things become a real test to us as we go on?

AJG Well, it is very necessary to see that if we do not hear these words of the Lord and do them we are foolish people, and sooner or later we shall come to grief. That is the instruction, that if we want to build up a line of conduct that will be supported right through, so that our life will not become disastrous at some point or other, we must pay attention to these words of the Lord and do them.

HLH At the end mention is made of the authority with which He taught, is that a matter of submitting ourselves to that authority in an absolute way?

AJG It would be, I am sure, and the impression is too that they referred to the fact that they felt there was authority in His words from the moral standpoint, that He Himself was all that He enunciated,

and therefore there was authority in what He said.

HN What would help us, I suppose, is to have the Lord before us continually?

AJG And to pay attention to these things in detail, not simply to have the Lord before us in a general way, but to pay attention to these matters in detail, because the Lord is going into detail, understanding the kind of things that we are apt to be tripped up by.

HLH It is a matter of obeying the truth, is it not?

AJG Yes. It says, “He taught them as having authority and not as their scribes.” That is what makes me feel that the authority there is moral authority, resulting from His being Himself entirely in keeping with what He taught, because the scribes had a certain authority, the Lord says, They sit in Moses’ seat, but they had not moral authority.

LAC Would the beginning of John’s gospel, chapter 8, bear out what you are saying? The scribes and Pharisees begin to quote Moses to the Lord as though they would bring Him under the authority and teaching of Moses, but He stoops down and writes, as though He would bring in a law of His own, which would govern the then position and the law of grace would govern the dispensation, would it not?

AJG Yes, it was grace, of course, reigning through righteousness. That is, the Lord in stooping down, I take it, indicated that the law did require that the woman should be stoned, but at the same time intimated by His action that He Himself would stoop down to pay the penalty, so that grace might reign.

HOE Do you mean that we are all builded either upon the rock or on the sand?

AJG That is it. I believe the house that we build is really our whole life, our course here. Are we going through and never going to be overcome, or is it that, through following some wrong principle, the time will come when morally some disaster overtakes us? That is, we get overcome, Satan gets an inlet. It is by the observance of these principles that we build up what is stable in a moral sense.

CB We have to be entirely different. God wants to secure a people who are entirely different from the world around?

AJG Yes, and hence the fifth chapter seems to lead up to this point, that we may be sons of our Father which is in the heavens, and then the first part of the sixth chapter, that we looked at, is the great point of all that we do being before God and in secret. That is, that we cultivate secret relations with God and allow our motives in what we do to be brought into the light before God: that we are not acting or praying before men, we are acting and praying before God.

CB That would be the source of all power, would it not?

AJG And preserves us too.

LBl In His teaching here the Lord takes up matters in detail. Would you not say it is encouraging too that we can refer to His life for the working out of these truths in detail? It would correspond with what we get in Acts, “to do and to teach”?

AJG Yes. At the same time I believe it is important for us to pay attention to these particular details, because the Lord has not said these things to no purpose, and these are details of different things by which different ones are overcome if they do not pay heed to the instructions of the Lord.

FW Giving heed to these things would lead to spiritual prosperity?

AJG Exactly.

SW The Lord had in mind what should be continued in those who are His own?

AJG He has in mind our being built up in ability to stand against wind and stream and so on, that is, powerful influences brought to bear upon us, and it is a question of being able to stand. And the Lord has the assembly in mind, something that will be able to stand against hades’ gates.

TG It says in the fifth chapter, “Ye are the salt of the earth,” and “the light of the world,” would that help us to stand?

AJG Well, that tells us what we are, but then the Lord goes on to say, “If the salt have become insipid... it is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out.” Shewing that while in the mind of the Lord we may be the salt of the earth, and we are that if we are going on in the truth, we may become insipid, salt-less. I think the principle of salt is very much a question of maintaining the fear of God in our souls, which is preservative. Salt is preservative.

LBl Would you say just there that that would suggest to us that we are not to take things for granted, but there is a necessity of working out the truth in our lives in a practical way?

AJG That is exactly what is in mind. The Lord said, Ye are the salt of the earth, but then He says, If the salt become insipid, showing that it is possible for that to happen.

AAT In Paul’s ministry does Romans correspond to this teaching, because the principles of the kingdom are brought forward, and the boards of the tabernacle are made to stand?

AJG Quite so. The epistle to Romans really develops us after the order of Jesus Christ, that order of Man, and that is what is typified in the acacia wood that the boards of the tabernacle are made of. It all has in mind our being able to stand up as identified with God’s testimony, and not be overcome.

HLH When the Lord said in chapter 16, to the disciples, “Who do ye say that I am?” Was it not a sort of appeal to persons who had gone this way?

AJG Yes, I think so. It brings in something additional, of course, to what we have in these chapters, but I believe this is a very necessary foundation, that we should be built up in stability.

HAL Did you have anything specially in mind reading these verses?

AJG Well, verses 42 - 48 of chapter 5, emphasise the thought of being the sons of our Father who is in the heavens. That is something to bear in mind. And then the first six verses in chapter 6 emphasise the importance of having to do continually with our Father who sees in secret, and cultivating secret dealings with God. It says, “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who sees in secret,” not simply who hears in secret but who sees in secret, “will render it to thee.” Not “openly” as the authorised version says, it is not a question of wanting open vindication, it is a question of the Father Himself rendering it to us.

LAC We cannot be stable if we are not real?

AJG No, exactly.

LAC In the fifth chapter, the injunction in activity towards the enemy is to love, bless, do good, and pray for. Would those four things indicate what is inside in the way of a store, a moral store that can be drawn upon?

AJG Well, quite so, but I think it is a question of keeping the Father who is in the heavens before us. It is a remarkable thing that it says that “He makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust”. That is, the blessing proceeds from what He is, regardless of the character of those on whom it is bestowed.

HOE All those things are acting like God, and if we are sons of God we are supposed to act like God.

AJG Exactly.

EMe So, if we understand this we would be in a better position for these features to be worked out inwardly for the pleasure of God?

AJG Exactly, and then the importance of cultivating secret relations with God, and not doing things before men, but cultivating relations with God who sees in secret.

TG Would that be seen in David and Saul?

AJG Yes, exactly, it was. David evidently knew what it was to cultivate secret relations with God, Psalm 139, amongst others of his writings, shows that, that he knew what it was to be much in the presence of God, and God who sees in secret, He not only hears but He sees.

CM Would you say that in the fifth chapter where the Lord took a deliberate position in sitting, and then opening His mouth, is that not an example of stability?

AJG I think His sitting down shows how important it was, that He was deliberately taking up this attitude with a view to imparting this instruction. And “having opened his mouth,” would probably convey that all that He was saying proceeded from Himself, so that the truth may be learned in Himself.

WH And would you say this teaching was not to the crowd, but only to the disciples?

AJG It was only to the disciples.

AAT I notice that after the thought of “seeing” in secret, that He goes on to the prayer. It is often referred to as the Lord’s prayer, but I suppose it is really the disciples’ prayer, is it not? “Our Father who art in the heavens, let thy Name be sanctified.” I was wondering why He had to educate them as to the exact words to use.

AJG The Spirit had not come, of course. It would be a poor thing to do just what they do in system and repeat this verbally, because we have the Spirit, and the Spirit of adoption too. So that we ought to be able to pray intelligently and according to God without having a set form to follow. But then, the Lord gave them this prayer because they had not at this time the Spirit, and in order to set out the lines upon which we should pray. The first thing is, Let Thy Name be sanctified. Now how often do we really pray that? One has challenged oneself lately as to that, as to how much that comes to our minds as a first thought, that the Father’s Name is to be sanctified.

AKH Is that connected with preserving in us the fear of God?

AJG Quite so.

AKH Say a little more about the Father’s Name being sanctified?

AJG Well, we bear that Name. We are in the world as those who know God and therefore we bear that Name, and it is a serious thing if that Name is in any way besmeared, or blasphemed, which, of course, is worse. The Name of God was blasphemed among the Gentiles on account of the conduct of the Jews, which was a very serious matter. But we should see that the Father’s Name is sanctified, that is, as bearing that Name we are in keeping with the holiness of the Father’s Name.

LBr We should not do anything to cause persons to blaspheme the Name of the Father?

AJG That would be a very serious matter.

WT The Lord Himself, when speaking to the Father, says, “Holy Father.”

AJG Yes, exactly, and He speaks of Himself as His Holy One.

JHH I wondered if there was anything more in your mind in connection with the fact that the Father sees in secret, not only hears but He sees.

AJG Well, for one thing, if we are conscious that the Father sees, we do not need to say a great deal in our prayers, bring the matter before God,

whatever the matter is, because He sees the whole position, He is not dependent on what He hears to understand what is needed, He sees the whole position. But then He sees us too, and He sees what is in our hearts. The Psalmist says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me,” Psalm 66: 18, so all that enters into it - that He sees in secret. That is to say, He would give us the sense that it is a matter between Him and me individually; that is to be cultivated by us.

JHH As we get into His presence, it is there that we have God’s view of things, and our motives are exposed?

AJG That is it, exactly.

JHH I was noticing that Nehemiah when he prays, he says a thing that we very seldom say, he asks God to hear, “Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open,” Nehemiah 1: 6. So that you have the two thoughts there, there is the thought of hearing and seeing, as though we would invite divine scrutiny into our very motives, to have the Lord give us His approval or otherwise.

AJG And that is very preservative.

RS Does not the Psalmist’s calling upon God to “search” him come into it too?

AJG That is what I had in my mind a moment ago in referring to Psalm 139.

AAT The eighteenth verse again brings in the thought of seeing in secret, but in connection with fasting.

AJG Yes, we get it three times, this thought of His seeing in secret, and the great thing is to cultivate what is secret between our souls and God.

HOE In connection with the Father’s Name being sanctified, is that not an attitude that is to be characteristic in us? It is not only a matter of how it affects others, but it is how we regard it in ourselves.

His Name sanctified with us and in us as having the Holy Spirit.

AJG Yes, indeed. And then, “Let thy kingdom come, let thy will be done as in heaven, so upon the earth,” all that before it is a question of our needs.

CW As these relationships with God are cultivated, would it give us the power to love our enemies?

AJG Yes, but it would help us in every way, because it would preserve us from the beginnings of anything wrong, and preserve us from the subtle desire to do things before men or before the brethren, to receive approval of men or even of the brethren. It would preserve us from everything of that kind.

AAT This is not assembly prayer, is it?

AJG No, it is a question, I suppose, of what is individual. Although there is no reason why we should not pray in assembly that the Father’s Name should be sanctified.

AAT I was thinking of the individual needs.

AJG Quite so. Now in chapter 7 it leads up to what we have already referred to as to the Lord saying that the one who hears His words and does them is likened to a prudent man who built his house upon the rock, and although it might be tested and powerful influences brought to bear upon it, it stands, because it is founded upon the rock. That is, it is founded on principles that God Himself approves of, and that are, in fact, in moral keeping with what God is. And therefore such an one will never fall.

AY The Lord’s mind is that the saints should be nothing less than what He Himself is, so that when the test comes along they will be able to stand the test as He stood it. The winds blew against Him and the waves swept over Him but He stood it.

AJG Quite so. The Lord has in mind the assembly as that which is to stand here as “My assembly,” He says, in service God-ward and in testimony man-ward; it is to stand in spite of all Satan’s influences brought to bear upon it.

CB Would you say these features that are set out in these chapters are carried forward in the assembly and hades’ gates cannot prevail against such features?

AJG That is it, because after all the assembly is composed of individuals. They are built together by the Holy Spirit but are still individuals; and if one of us fails on these moral lines, Satan gets in by that means, he gets an advantage.

HAL Do you think the suggestion of building the house on the rock refers to Himself?

AJG I do not think I would put it that way. It is more a question of building it on the rock, what is firm and cannot be shaken, in contrast to the sand; it is a question of a foundation that will stand. Of course, you might say it is Christ, but it is a question really of being built up on sound principles, principles that are of God. It says in Timothy, “The firm foundation of God stands,” an abstract idea. It is a foundation that is of God, and that will always stand.

LBr This is a foundation, then, on which we build ourselves?

AJG Exactly. In a way, your house, according to this verse, is just your life, your course here, and it is to stand, there is not to be any disaster of a moral kind overtake it.

VB I was looking at verse 22 of chapter 7 as regards what a person might do with regard to prophesying, “Have we not prophesied through thy name, and through thy name cast out demons” and so on, but the Lord says, “I never knew you.” Those details that we have been speaking of were not in evidence apparently with those persons, would you say?

AJG No, I would say that exactly. That is the point in this passage, that we may be going on with things outwardly and saying, “Lord, Lord,” and it even contemplates the possibility of effecting things in the power of His Name, and yet being a worker of lawlessness. And the Lord has to say, “I never knew you. Depart from Me.” So that it all stresses the importance of genuineness and being governed by these principles, and not resting in anything that is outward.

LAC The pursuit of what you have suggested in attending to details, even to the matter of thoughts, as is covered in this part of Matthew, would call for continual self-judgment, would that not be the digging, so to speak, into the rock for this foundation?

AJG Yes, I think it would.

EB I was wondering if it is not noticeable that the test is put on both of these buildings?

AJG Yes, you mean the building on the rock and the building on the sand, they both alike are tested? Exactly. Well now, in chapter 16, it is a question not of principles but of the appreciation of the Person of Christ. The Lord says, “Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?” And they give various replies, and then He says, “But ye, who do ye say that I am? And Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly.” So I take it the rock really refers to the appreciation of Christ in the soul of Peter, and in the souls of the saints.

LAC Would the Lord Jesus Himself here be in any way viewed as the prudent Man, building on the rock?

AJG I would not care to apply that thought to Him. Of course, He does build on a rock that which is impregnable. He says, “On this rock I will build my assembly and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.”

CBl He could not do otherwise than that?

AJG No, the Lord does not build on an unstable foundation or a worthless foundation, so that there is the work of God in Peter’s soul, the revelation of the Father, and there was something there therefore that was stable, impregnable indeed.

CB Do you think the Lord’s question, “But ye, who do ye say that I am?” was to bring out what he had got from the Father?

AJG I think so. And then He not only brings out through Peter the truth as to His own Person, but He also tells Peter the truth about Peter, that “thou art Peter,” that is, a stone. He wants Peter to get a right idea about himself as well as a right idea about Christ, which is another important matter.

AY Would you say that this thought that we see here in chapter 16, is made good in the soul of Peter and is carried forward in his epistles when he said, “To whom coming, a living stone,” and “yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”?

AJG Yes, I would, there is no doubt that that part of his epistle is based on what he confesses here in this chapter and what the Lord says to him.

RS Would you say what is the difference between “this rock” and Peter a “stone”?

AJG I suppose there is a certain affinity between the idea of Peter as a stone and the thought of the rock. The rock, I suppose, refers to what the Father had wrought in Peter’s soul in the appreciation of Christ. But then, as having been wrought upon thus by God, we are to understand that we ourselves are material for the spiritual house, that we are it. He wanted Peter to understand that he was a stone.

RS Is it then that Christ is taking on persons who are subjects of the work of God?

AJG That is it, exactly. So that our business is to learn how to fit into this spiritual structure for which we have been fitted by the Father’s work.

HOE Is not this whole matter a question of values according to God? In the earlier chapters it is “sons of your Father who is in the heavens,” and now here it is a revelation of God to Peter, and it is all recognised and has a great value in the sight of God.

AJG Yes, quite so, and also a great value in the Lord’s sight, because He says, “And I also, I say unto thee.”

HLH Would that word to Peter, “Thou art Peter,” be a substantive answer to the revelation made to him?

AJG I think it would. That is, that the revelation was effective in Peter, he had it there in his soul, and nothing would allow him to give it up, that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God.

HLH Is that the way that things are worked with us, that is to say, we get a certain measure of light and then there is an answer in substance in what is built in our souls?

AJG Yes, I think so. And the appreciation that Jesus is the Christ, that is, the approved of God, the anointed of God, involves that every other man is set aside. There is only one Christ, there are many antichrists but there is only one Christ, and therefore if we really get into our souls that Jesus is the Christ it means that every other man is set aside; it means, that the first man has got to be repudiated in our own souls.

HOE That is what I meant by values.

AJG Quite so.

HAL What did the Lord mean when He said to him, “Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee”?

AJG Just that he had not got it by man’s teaching or anything of that sort. “Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.” A definite revelation in Peter’s soul by the Father as to the Person of Christ, and I think we can take that up, because the Lord says, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona,” that is He calls him by his ordinary name as known amongst men. But He says, You are blessed because you have this light in your soul. And every one of us who has divinely given light in his soul as to Christ, ought to think of himself in that way, that we are blessed compared with our neighbour who has not got it.

LBl So that it was not a mere expression of words, but this statement corresponded with the moral state that was there, would you say?

AJG I would. And not only the moral state but really what was there in Peter’s soul as a result of the Father’s work. The Father had wrought in Peter to give him this light as to Christ. And everyone of us who has a true appreciation of Christ, whatever the measure, as a result of the Father’s sovereign work in us, ought to take account of it, that God has done that for some purpose, not simply that we might go to heaven when we die, but that we might fit into the assembly, that is what God has in mind.

AAT And the Son of the living God is a Man?

AJG Quite so. His sonship is in manhood, and did not exist until He became Man, but He is Son of the living God, that is to say, He is the centre of a system of living affections of which God is the Source.

LBr Having this knowledge of Christ in our souls, what men say about Him cannot affect us?

AJG Quite so.

RS And is it not so then, since we as believers are subjects of God’s work, that there is capability there for pursuing the truth and fitting into the assembly intelligently?

AJG There is, and I believe it would help us greatly if we would just lay hold of it, that God has sovereignly wrought in our souls, and now you say to yourself, If that is so, and my neighbour next door has not been wrought in in this way, why is it? And the answer is that God intends us to be a living stone in this spiritual house, and to have part in His service; every brother and every sister is to function in it livingly.

EMe So what Peter says, “To whom coming,” would not apply to every believer but only to those who are moving livingly, would you say?

AJG I think so. It is not coming in the initial way as sinners coming to Christ, I think it is rather what is characteristic, “To whom coming” - like Peter leaving the boat to go to Jesus.

AT Is it the Spirit’s work that the Lord Jesus should be known as the Son of God?

AJG Everything that is wrought in us is by the Spirit, even new birth is the Spirit’s work. It is all the Spirit’s work.

AT I was thinking of Ephesians, “Until we all arrive... the full grown man.”

AJG The full grown man, the knowledge of the Son of God? Quite so. The Son of God, as Mr. Taylor has said, is God’s great ideal. His great ideal in manhood is set out in the Son of God, and His work in souls has in mind no less standard than our being brought into accord with the Son of God.

LAC I was thinking of the Spirit’s place in connection with all that you were saying, and wondered whether the streams and the wind as you referred to in chapter 7, no doubt suggestive of the independent influences all controlled by hades’ gates and suggestive of Satan’s opposition, would not be exactly in contrast to the Spirit’s influence as seen perhaps in the type of the river; the result of which builds up that in the souls of the saints which is impregnable?

AJG Yes, I would think that.

HAL The angel had said He would be the Son of the Highest. Would “Son of the living God” be connected with that?

AJG I think the stressing of the “living God” is to stress that it is a living system, a system of holy affections centring in the Son, because all around us there is the professed divine service, and divine worship, as it is called, but very largely a dead system. It is dead formality and God is not known. Whereas Peter says, Thou art the Son of the living God.

CB Was what was given to Paul on the same level? He says, “it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb... to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him.”

AJG I would think it is much on the same level. “The Christ” would involve that the assembly is set up in complete independence of man and of the world, all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in the Christ, and the assembly is complete in Him, and does not need anything from man or from man’s world. And the “Son of the living God” would involve that we have our part in a system of living affections as characterised by liberty, the liberty of sonship. And you can easily understand that if the assembly is held under the influence of Christ and deriving influence and direction from Him, and in liberty too, then Satan will not gain an advantage.

SW Would you tell us what you have in mind in using the term “the Christ”?

AJG That is what Peter says, “Thou art the Christ.” It is simply marking Him out in that distinctive way as the anointed One of God. He has no rival. There are not two Christs.

AAT While this revelation is made to Peter, is it not so that Peter in his ministry says very little about the Son of the living God?

AJG Yes, it is, which would show that a servant does not necessarily bring out all that is in his own soul. He is governed in his service by what the Spirit directs in relation to the needs of those to whom he is ministering.

SW Would you not say that the character of Peter’s service would not necessitate the bringing in of that line of truth?

AJG Quite so.

LAC The Lord’s question here is as to Himself as Son of man, but the revelation from the Father brings in the statement which brings Him before us as the Son of the living God. I was just wondering if the revelation from the Father almost, so to speak, went beyond the Lord’s own question of what would have been applicable to the general thought and opinion, bringing in something entirely new, new even to the disciples?

AJG The Lord habitually spoke of Himself as the Son of man in the gospels. He would not allow Himself to be spoken of as “the Christ” until He was risen from the dead, for if He had allowed Himself to be spoken of publicly as the Christ while He was still here, men would have thought that He had come in to adorn man in the flesh. And so the Lord would not allow them to make Him known as the Christ until He was risen from the dead.

BA The Lord asked the disciples the question but Peter answers for them all.

AJG Well, I have no doubt it genuinely represented what they all had, except Judas Iscariot, but Peter is taken up as a sample man, especially in Matthew.

MC Is not what was given to Peter, the light of Christ as “Son of the living God,” what the Spirit is seeking to put into our souls?

AJG I think so. And if any of us feel that we do not really understand what is involved in “the Christ, the Son of the living God,” let us get to the Father about it. He revealed it sovereignly to Peter, and He will be quite pleased to make it effective in our souls too. Why not get to the Father about it? The Father loves us to be specific in our prayers, and if anyone does not really understand what is involved in the Christ the Son of the living God, get to the Father about it in secret, and tell Him that you want to understand what is involved in “the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

HOE Is not that a pre-eminent truth that the Spirit would lead us into?

AJG I think so.

HN So that these two thoughts of stability and invulnerability are not general, but would call for individual exercise and prayer?

AJG Quite so.

EMe Would the Lord in saying, “But my Father who is in the heavens” indicate that He wanted to put His disciples in touch with the Father also, livingly?

AJG Well, yes. Then He goes on to say, “I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter.” That is very interesting to me, that Peter has now a right view of Christ, and now the Lord says, I want you to have a right view of yourself as a subject of the work of God. It is very important that we should have a right view of ourselves as subjects of the work of God, that if God has wrought in us in that way He intends every one of us to be a living stone: not a mere listener at the meetings or an onlooker, but one who is capable of living affections towards Christ and towards God, capable of receiving impulses by the Spirit, capable of contributing to the wealth there is in the company.

HN We want help on that, I think.

AJG Well, it is a question of what the Lord would say to Peter, “I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter.” If the Father has wrought in our souls, why is it? What has He in mind in working in our souls?

LAC Is it not in that way very blessed to dwell upon the substantial character of Christianity, whether whatever is presented objectively in its completeness as here in chapter 16, must be worked out in stability down to the very details of the earlier chapters as you spoke?

AJG Yes, quite so.

AY I am glad you stressed that, I wanted to ask earlier if we might not learn something from this expression of the Lord. Perhaps you would tell us a little more about it?

AJG Well, that is all that I see at the moment. The Father has given this revelation to Peter, which resulted in Peter having a right appreciation of Christ. Now the Lord says, I have something to say to you, and what I want you to have is a right appreciation of yourself, as being the subject of the work of God.

LBl And part of the material used in the building of the assembly?

AJG Exactly. The Father’s revelation had constituted him as suitable material for the spiritual house, which is made of living stones.

RS These lines are very helpful because the general disposition of the saints is to take account of ourselves as forgiven sinners, and even when thinking of the work of God in sovereignty it is mostly in view of knowing our sins forgiven.

AJG Exactly, and on the other hand what God has in mind, and what the Lord has in mind, is the assembly. The Lord calls it “My assembly,” and it is to stand here, the constant butt of the enemy’s attack, and yet impregnable as the vessel of service God-ward and the vessel of testimony man-ward.

HOE I suppose Peter is in the good of the principles of the kingdom in the earlier chapters that we have been looking at?

AJG I am sure that is contemplated. We know that Peter broke down and failed from time to time, but he was recovered, but I have no doubt that characteristically he was formed by what the Lord said in chapters 5 - 7.

LAC Is that not substantiated in the Lord’s own statement to Peter, “Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto thee.” Would that not suggest that what was connected with what was merely sensual and the natural impulse of a man like Peter is judged, so that he was no longer under the influence of what was connected with flesh and blood.

AJG And yet immediately after that in verse 23, we find the Lord saying to Peter, “Get away behind me, Satan,” showing how quickly we may become someone that Satan can use if we are not watchful. He allowed himself to be governed by mere sentiment and natural considerations, and thus became someone that for the moment Satan could use.

RS Was that not dropping down to the “Simon Bar-jona” line?

AJG Yes, quite so.

AAT The expression, “My assembly,” would that give us the authority to say “Christ’s assembly”?

AJG Yes, I would think so.

AAT Is there any other scripture in the New Testament where the assembly is spoken of as “Christ’s assembly”?

AJG Well, “Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it... that he might present the assembly to himself glorious.” It is spoken of as the assembly of God also, especially in its public character - “The assembly of God which is in Corinth.” But I think the Lord says, “My assembly” here, viewing it as in testimony, because it means so much to the Lord that He has a vessel here which He can employ in the service of God in the very presence of evil.

WH Would you say, “Upon this rock I will build” shows divine authority?

AJG “I say unto thee” is authoritative, and “I will build” is, in a sense, a challenge to Satan, “I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.”