THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (2)
[p. 164] THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (2)
JT It is thought that we might well devote our time to this chapter in view of the remarkable affection shown by the apostle for the Thessalonians which it discloses. We have already alluded to the high level of the first chapter: “Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus to the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”. There can be no doubt that the apostle intended to set a standard for us, for all the saints, in all times, as to the seemly relations between those ministered to and those who minister. Then there are the allusions to his own sufferings in Philippi and the effect of those sufferings on himself. “Having suffered before and been insulted, even as ye know, in Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the glad tidings of God with much earnest striving”. That is a word not to be overlooked, earnest striving in the apostle’s soul as speaking to them.
PL Did he, like Jacob as prevailing with God, now prevail with the saints?
JT In the section alluded to, Jacob said to Esau that the young cattle would die if they were overdriven one day, which is a tender allusion to youthful affections and weakness, so that we are to be patient with the saints and not strain them.
AJG Does the allusion to “the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” imply that they had a special place in the tender affections of the Father and of the Lord?
JT I thought that. The word in Revelation 22: 17 that we have already alluded to says, “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”. What a level was reached in the work of the Spirit in the saints viewed [p. 165] as the bride! the nearness with which she could speak, the nearness to divine Persons. The Spirit and the bride, the Spirit speaking with the bride and the bride speaking with the Spirit show the level to which the work of God brings the assembly; that is to such nearness to divine Persons.
AJG Do you mean that Paul was near to divine Persons here in his affections for the saints and that in his ministry he would bring that about in the saints?
JT That is just what I thought. It is a question of tenderness of feeling, and affection in the ministers, as to those to whom they minister.
PL “I drew them with bands of a man, with cords of love; and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I gently caused them to eat”, Hosea 11: 4.
JT And He said in that chapter in Hosea, “And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk”. There is an allusion to a little child being led along by his parent or parents into boyhood or manhood. No doubt the wider allusion would be to the order of the tribes, the order of march of the tribes, and the tenderness of Jehovah in leading them forward in the wilderness.
DJM Did the tribulations of the Thessalonians, the manner in which they suffered, endear them to divine Persons (1 Thessalonians 1: 6)?
JT I am sure that is the truth and shows how the Father and the Son and the Spirit enter into our sufferings, however small or great.
PHH Would the ark going before them according to Numbers 10, taking the brunt of the opposition, illustrate this?
JT Yes. That was much better than the proposal of Moses to make Hobab their guide in the wilderness. That was not to be compared with the ark going before them in the three days’ journey,
[p. 166] which suggested the tenderness of Jehovah in leading them through the wilderness, not only teaching them to walk, and the feelings that were in keeping with it.
Ques Do you see those feelings also in that God did not take them by a short way lest they should see war early and be discouraged?
JT That is in exact keeping with what we have been saying; it was lest they should be discouraged by seeing war.
Ques Would the authority suggested in the reference to Christ’s apostles be balanced by what Paul says, “But have been gentle in the midst of you, as a nurse would cherish her own children. Thus, yearning over you”? Does that suggest the affection that was in evidence in his service?
JT That was one of the thoughts that were in one’s mind; “a nurse ... her own children”, and then there is a further allusion in the chapter to a father his own children. “As ye know how, as a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory” (verse 11). One was struck with each one being spoken of as the object of the apostle’s care, not simply as a flock, but each one, which would be in entire keeping with Jacob’s suggesting to Esau that the young cattle should not be unduly strained in taking the journey that he proposed.
HW Are these divine feelings coming out in the ministry with the intention of securing subjective results in the way of formation?
JT That is what I was thinking, that the minister is to take the pattern that the apostle furnishes, because he is the leader really; the Lord intended him to be the minister of the assembly, bringing the saints on to the level of heavenly relations — what they will be, what will be expressed in the assembly unitedly in the coming day. It is the training time [p. 167] now, the nursing time, during which we are being brought up in the tender affections flowing from divine Persons.
HW Is this part of the processing that you have spoken of in another place, having in view the formation of bridal features and feminine affections?
JT Just so.
PHH Jehovah said to Moses about the people, “Carry them in thy bosom, as the nursing-father beareth the suckling, unto the land which thou didst swear unto their fathers”, Numbers 11: 12. Would that combine these two thoughts of the tender care in service, and then the high level of the objective in the land?
JT Which would fit in with the peculiar allusion to espying the land as it were unexpectedly, and deciding that it would be fit for Israel. Jehovah said He espied it for them and designed that they should have it (Ezekiel 20: 5, 6). So that the state of things in Canaan has to be kept in mind, what God has in mind for us, “Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man’s heart, which God has prepared for them that love him”. But then they are revealed, “even the depths of God”, so that the saints are thoroughly with God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, in all this, and in view of our eternal abode.
Ques Is it remarkable that the quotation made from Numbers 11 arose through the murmurings that were present? Do you think the tests of the way are to bring out the reserves that God has in affection in the ministers?
JT Quite so. It is like Paul’s allusion, in the remarkable account of his labours, in 2 Corinthians 11. “Who is stumbled, and I burn not?”, he says, showing how, as reflecting the heart of God in regard to the saints, he observed what might happen to them, and was affected by it. All is to bring out [p. 168] this great thought of pattern for us in those who serve.
LPM Is this all the unfolding of that which you spoke of this morning as “our entering in”?
JT It includes that. That is just what we get at the very beginning of the chapter, “For ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you, that it has not been in vain”.
LPM Is that in view of their final going out in the rapture, the apostle entering in in this manner to secure a perfect outgoing?
JT I think it is one of the great features of the finish, because there must be a finish to the dispensation. There must be a finish, and the finish of the work is undoubtedly going on, and no doubt this epistle being couched in such tender language is intended to form us, so that in the fourth chapter we have the actual coming of the Lord for us, not to us, as today when we are in assembly, but for us. “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven”. It is not without significance that this epistle is designed to prepare the saints for this great fact.
PL So that in Deuteronomy, on the eve of entering Canaan, so to speak, there is great tenderness of spirit with Moses, his doctrine distilling as the dew: “Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”, the care of a bird’s nest, and so on, all to verse the saints in tender feelings in view of Canaan.
JT I think so. It is in keeping with the great characteristic of Deuteronomy, that it is Moses. It is Moses himself. It is not, “Thus saith the Lord”, as in Numbers and Leviticus, but Moses himself. That is the character of the book of Deuteronomy, to direct us to the feelings and expressions of Moses himself. So that it is said in chapter 1 that he began to unfold the law. “These are the words which Moses spoke”, not what he was told to speak, but which Moses spoke. It was himself, the man that had been with them all the time, and would have gone in with them too; he was full of the affections suited to the place. In fact he is allowed to see the land, and to see it as the tribes would inhabit it, as the tribes would be seen in it. So “these are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel on this side the Jordan, in the wilderness, in the plain, opposite to Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. There are eleven days’ journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea”. Deuteronomy 1: 1, 2. Showing that everything is measured, measured you might say, by a father.
Ques Does that account for the fact that he was so readily accorded a place of kingship at the end? “He was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together”.
JT Quite so. It is a question of righteousness, I suppose. For an upright people, it was suitable to have a king like Moses. He had proved his kingly qualities in all that way.
AED Does that find expression in Paul? “I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ”, and very soon after, he refers to a man in Christ.
JT “I myself”. In speaking of the man in Christ he is lowly enough to say that he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it. We have to think of the mystery entering into that word, but then there are the affections of Paul. You get it, you might say, constantly, especially in the epistle to Philemon. What feelings are expressed there!
Ques You referred to “each one”. Does Paul, when he calls over to him the elders of Ephesus, not only outline the course of things to them but all his feelings as entering into it, as he says, “Wherefore [p. 170] watch, remembering that for three years, night and day, I ceased not admonishing each one of you with tears”.
JT That is good. Especially because that chapter, Acts 20, begins with love, begins with Paul’s embrace, and ends with their embrace of him. And then there is the raising of Eutychus in the middle of the chapter. In fact it is a great love chapter, the very centre or heart of the book of Acts. Hence the suitableness of the embrace, the feelings between himself and the elders, as he departs from them.
Ques In the list of gifts given by Christ as described in Ephesians 4, the gifts of shepherds and teachers appear to be combined. Is that exemplified in the apostle in the matter to which you refer?
JT Just so, it is one gift. So that the shepherding is undoubtedly the feature of it. Shepherds and teachers. Shepherding is undoubtedly the initial idea, and then the teaching is a stronger thought, but an essential thought, because children, after all, however you shepherd them, have to be taught. Even if it be a school of Tyrannus they have to go, but at the same time shepherding secures everything, and hence the Lord says to Peter, “Shepherd my sheep”. There is the feeding, but there is also the shepherding.
HH Does all this mean we are being loved into these things?
JT Quite so. We are loved into it, but then there is the element of love in us, or it would be very ineffective. The principle of love, I mean to say the basic thought in a person, is the new birth. All that we are speaking of follows that, but the new birth must be there, or there is nothing at all of God. You would say that?
HH Yes. The affections of Paul, as of old the affections of Moses to the people of God, all result in response.
[p. 171] JT Therefore the work of God has to be taken account of in its initial idea, in its initial thoughts, and the Old Testament of course helps us in that, because of the place the Spirit has in the new birth. The Lord calls the attention of Nicodemus to the new birth. Apparently he did not develop in it himself, which is often the case, but it was there, it was in him and John 3 is to bring out the depths of things; that is to say, the love of God; that “God so loved the world”. The basis in man is the new birth, and there is a response in the person born again. It is really born anew, or entirely afresh, and the whole person is affected. Perhaps that is where the great defect is in the development of the saints, the want of the knowledge of the new birth and of how much God in His Spirit enters into it Himself. It is a question of the Spirit of God.
HH It was in that way a very great matter that the Lord took up with Nicodemus, a master of Israel, and yet everything had to be started all over again on a new line.
JT “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!”. Knowest not; and yet undoubtedly the thing was there in himself.
CFI What is involved in the glad tidings of God?
JT That would be expressed in the word of God. “Thus, yearning over you, we had found our delight in having imparted to you not only the glad tidings of God, but our own lives also”. A remarkable thing, as if the glad tidings of God required such a statement, that Paul’s own life was bound up with the Thessalonians. Well, you might say, God Himself is bound up with the Thessalonians, because they are “in God the Father”.
CFI They turned to God from idols. Does God become the object [p. 172] thus?
JT Just so. That is what we had this morning: “To serve a living and true God, and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath”. So the Godhead is much stressed in that, as involving our deliverance from the coming wrath.
Ques Is it noteworthy that whilst Paul pursues such a positive line, he mentions several things that did not mark him. He says, “For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile”, and later, “For we have not any time been among you with flattering discourse”. Are they, so to speak, landmarks so that we may avoid dangers?
JT Yes. I would say negatives involving positives. They involve positives, every one of them.
Ques In verse 4 he says, “Even as we have been approved of God to have the glad tidings entrusted to us”. Does that apply in principle now?
JT Well, what is a man, if he has not something entrusted to him? Paul had this greatest thing, you might say, entrusted to him. He speaks in his second letter to Timothy of this trust, that he had committed to the Lord, “to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him”.
Rem He also says, “According to the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted”, 1 Timothy 1: 11.
JT We shall never find much in anyone who has not a sense of having a trust, something worth holding. The apostle said he had committed it to the Lord. So that it was in safe keeping, but the responsibility for it was with him.
Rem I was thinking of God in that way jealously guarding the glad tidings. They are so precious in His sight that the persons to whom they are entrusted must come under His approval.
JT Quite so. Trustworthiness would, I suppose, enter into all confidences.
[p. 173] JP-sn Is the work of God seen in evidence in the servant? He spoke of himself, in writing to Timothy, as having been an insolent and overbearing man, but here he is commending the glad tidings in all its fullness in the way he has presented himself to the saints at Thessalonica.
JT Just so. He was worthy of the trust; hence he can speak in Colossians also of what was committed to him, and how he completed the word of God. He finished the thing in keeping with the Lord’s own way of finishing, and probably part of the weakness of our position is the want of finish, as is suggested in Psalm 133, “the hem of his garments”. There is no doubt we have come to the finish, and all these things that we are seeking to go over together are to lead us into the idea of finishing; God has come to the time of finishing and chapter 4 of this epistle is to show that the Lord Himself is about to come down too. He is coming Himself and He is not going to catch up an unfinished assembly. He is going to have a finished one, and therefore we have to make up our minds for quick work before the end.
PHH Would the repetition of the glad tidings of God here in this chapter mean that the whole mind of God is really to be before us in the gospel?
JT Quite so, and I observed the brethren have a notice outside this hall that the word is preached on Lord’s day evenings. The word is, “Proclaim the word”, as the apostle said, and it is a most penetrating thought. It is to bring out the depth of the thing, and so Paul said, “Proclaim the word”.
RHG With reference to your suggestion as to trustworthiness, have you in mind that it is as we are developed in feelings according to God that we become trustworthy to God?
JT Just so. John’s gospel I believe is the great part of Scripture that stresses the idea of trustworthiness.
In chapter 2 it is said, “Jesus himself did not trust himself to them”. Though they believed in His signs He did not trust them, because what could be trusted was the new birth, not any mere knowledge, but the new birth. Therefore the word “cannot” is attached to it, “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God”. And then he cannot enter into it. So it is the new birth and all that follows on it by the Spirit that warrants trustworthiness.
Rem You mean it is wholly and solely the result of the work of God and our becoming identified with it.
JT It is new. It says “born anew”. It is throughout. It is a question really of the thoroughness of it, the reliability of it.
HH How does eternal life in John 3 stand in relation to new birth? The Lord goes on to that.
JT He goes on to it because of the thoroughness of the basis. It is a question of what is basic and what is reliable. He can speak freely and fully according to His own point of view, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal”.
Ques Do you see trustworthiness in a sister in Mary Magdalene who received a communication to take to the disciples? She said that she had seen the Lord, and that He had said these things to her. She does not take the place of teaching. Would you say she is most trustworthy and comely as a vessel?
JT I would say that, because she had already indicated her trustworthiness in the way she referred to Him as “Rabboni”. One who could speak of Him to Himself from that point of view is trustworthy; that is to say, she has taken on the right Teacher. We not only need right teaching, but we need a right [p. 175] teacher, we must have a right teacher; it is not a creed, which may be well in itself, but it is the person who teaches that we have to think of. Mary had in her mind that He would be her teacher, my Teacher. Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel, but what could be based on his teaching? He did not know even the elements of divine teaching.
Ques Did the Lord express all the tenderness of our chapter when He came to her and said, “Mary”?
JT He called her by name. I suppose at first the Lord intended it to touch the depth of her being, so that He called her by name. He had called her, ‘Woman’, but when He said, ‘Mary’, that was the word that conveyed what she was really. I believe in the root of that word there is the idea of bitterness, what has been gone through in learning the truth, and coming into contact with Christ.
LPM Would the sufferings of the Thessalonians alluded to in verse 14 of our chapter have some parallel? “For ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus, for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews”.
JT It is remarkable, the use of the word “countrymen”, and then the terrible result in the Jews, wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. It shows how little can be relied on in the idea of country, according to this world. “Your own countrymen”. Their relation is characterised by sufferings, it was causing sufferings, so that national feeling is of little worth, as any one who relies on it will find, even natural as well as national feeling is unreliable.
AED Would this element of trustworthiness in the Thessalonians work out in scope for the word of God as including whatever may be current at the moment? The previous verse refers to “even as it is truly, God’s word, which also works in you who believe”.
JT I think we do well to examine that a little, because it works out in the universal constitution that had been wrought in them. We spoke of it this morning, that they imitated the assemblies in Judaea; they went far afield, showing they were becoming universal in their outlook; the word of God would effect that. It is “God’s word, which also works in you who believe. For ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus; for ye also have suffered”. This matter of the assemblies being imitated shows that we can imitate what is of God in a distant country; we should not be national in any outlook that we have, thinking that what we have ourselves is all right, whereas it may not be. There may be some distant work that is more right, more useful, and more according to God, so that we do well to examine into the general work of God as to what it may be.
HW Does this feature of suffering found amongst the saints provide an attractive feature for the Lord Himself? I was wondering whether we could link it up with the Song of Songs 5: 1, “I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse; I have gathered my myrrh with my spice”. Is there something for the Lord’s heart seen in the saints suffering locally for the testimony as suggested in the word myrrh? He gathers His myrrh with His spice.
JT No doubt the woman in Luke 7 would represent that in the way she anointed the Lord with myrrh.
HJM What bearing has the truth of divine judgment on all this? Has it a sanctifying effect?
JT I am glad you bring that up, because it was one of the main thoughts in introducing this epistle. What an awful thing divine judgment is! The word “wrath” here is used first as to the general feature of it, “Our deliverer from the coming wrath”, but now it is applied to the Jews, God’s ancient people; for it is said here, in verse 16, that “wrath has come upon them to the uttermost”. How terrible it is, that in spite of all that had been shown to them, as we have been speaking of it in Deuteronomy, that God’s wrath has been expressed towards them! We see it all around us in all that is happening in Palestine and in Europe generally, how the government of God has pursued them. There is that which can be called wrath in its treatment of them. And yet all Israel shall be saved, so that there is something to work out in our souls as to the word “wrath” in regard to the Jews. No other family on earth is treated this way. God pursues them in His wrath, and yet He pursues them also according to His counsels that all Israel will be saved. It is another feature for us to think of, but the general thought of judgment in this epistle is very striking. And the general thought is attached to the Lord’s coming too, because the idea will synchronise in His coming, as we shall see in the second epistle, in verse 5 of chapter 1: “a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that ye should be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for the sake of which ye also suffer; if at least it is a righteous thing with God to render tribulation to those that trouble you, and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, when he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all that have believed”.
[p. 178] We can see, I think, a distinction between wrath as applied to the Jews in this chapter, having come upon them to the uttermost, and wrath as applied to christendom. There is no mitigation at all as to the application to christendom, because the book of Revelation shows the totality of the judgment of God coming upon christendom; that is to say, those who have had the glad tidings sent to them; whereas I suppose the wrath that is spoken of here as following the Jew will not be final. All Israel will be saved, for God is true to His counsels, to the promises made to the fathers.
PL So that the angel “cried with a strong voice, saying, Great Babylon has fallen, has fallen”, Revelation 18: 2. That is irrevocable.
JT “And her smoke goes up to the ages of ages”. Revelation 19: 3. There is no mitigation of it at all. That is the terribleness of the judgment that is to come upon all around us, and so the need of preaching the gospel to men that they might be saved, at least that some might be saved.
PHH Even the judgment as depicted in the book of Revelation in the hands of the Lord, belongs to Him as “The Word of God”. I am referring to the name the Lord has in Revelation 19: “And his name is called The Word of God”. Does that mean that we are receiving the revealed mind of God about it?
JT I thought so. His name is called “The Word of God”. He comes out as the King of kings and Lord of lords, but the Word of God is a most penetrating thought.
PHH Is it your mind that the title of the gospel here, “the glad tidings of God”, several times repeated, would cover a good deal of scope so that we have considerable liberty in going over God’s thoughts in the gospel? I am enquiring whether in the gospel we should open up the great things of [p. 179] God, corresponding to the land, and on the other hand we should open up the judgment of God according to what you have referred to in the Revelation?
JT Yes, because judgment is the alternative to the blessing.
HH In Romans 11 it says that all Israel will be saved, but would you say a word as to the apostate side? That does not come into salvation does it?
JT Oh, no, it does not. It is a question of what the Jews are as exposed to that judgment. When it says “all Israel” it means the number of the tribes; “our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night”, as Paul says. We have to understand that. It is a question of God’s purpose, that what He has committed Himself to He will fulfil, but the judgment against the unrepentant Jew will be terrible.
Ques Do you see the penetrating effect of the word of God the first time it is mentioned in Genesis 15? “After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision”. All that follows in that chapter is of very real heart-searching character, and God says the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
JT God is reserving judgment there, holding His hand, as it were. He is holding His hand, because the iniquity of the Amorite was not yet full. I suppose the iniquity of the Amorite will be seen in the apostate Jews.
Rem It was a very searching time for Abraham when he was spoken to in this way, and he seems to answer with divine instinct, to the searching character of the word.
JT Quite so. So that he had to go through a horror, a great darkness. It is a remarkable thing that Abraham the great progenitor of Israel, of the Jews, should have to go through that, and then that the time is given during which it all should happen, four hundred years. Scripture has to be [p. 180] carefully compared to make this period to agree. What is stated in Genesis 15, is, of course, the truth as to the actual years they had to spend in the judgment of God in Egypt. To link with what we have just been saying Abraham himself would be buried in a good old age, he would go to his fathers. The Lord says, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad”. So that we have to see how the working of God according to His counsels works out in Abraham in that chapter. The wickedness of the Amorite had to be fulfilled, but that God would be patient enough to wait for that time, to express what He is in relation to the evil, is remarkable.
Ques Does Paul in Romans 9, verses 6, 7, state the truth very concisely with reference to Israel. “Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel; nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children”. Does that clear up the difficulty that may exist in some minds in regard of all Israel being saved?
JT I think it should, because it is a question of actual truth that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. What He has committed Himself to in regard of Israel, the promises made to the fathers, stands. What may happen to some who are of Israel is another matter, but there is great discrimination in regard to God’s dealings with Israel, discrimination that is not found in regard of the gentiles.
RRT As to this matter of wrath, it says in Romans 1: 18, “There is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men ...” How does that stand in relation to what we are speaking of now as to wrath?
JT It shows that God is God, and morally what answers to His nature, as we may say, must go through in regard of everybody. The lake of fire is [p. 181] the great finality of the whole matter, as to judgment. It is a lake, a limited place, and whosoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into it. The first to be there are the beast and the false prophet, showing that the terrible judgment of God is not to be stayed. He may be patient, and is patient, but when these two appear according to the second epistle, their doom will be the full expression of God’s wrath against human wickedness; with the devil they form a trinity of wickedness against God and Christ.
LPM Is that the bearing of the expression, ‘the uttermost’? That the thing is thoroughly done: “Wrath is come upon them to the uttermost”.
JT Well, “the uttermost” in that quotation refers to the severity of God’s present dealings with the Jews, but then the Jews of counsel, those that are in the mind of God to be saved, will be saved. All Israel will be saved, and we must remember that.
Rem As regards the judgment on Babylon, it says, “God has judged your judgment upon her”, but there is the final judgment, the great white throne; the Lord there carries out the judgment of God.
JT John says, “I saw ... him that sat on it”; it is a position deliberately taken up. I think the character of the wickedness that is dealt with is in mind too. The worst wickedness, I suppose, from the time of Adam down, will be in Babylon, because her smoke rises up for ever and ever. But then that same wickedness is seen in the man of sin, and in the false prophet; they are cast alive into the lake of fire.
HH Do they come before the great white throne for judgment? It is supposed to be final when a man gets there.
JT I do not think there will be any judgment needed to be rendered in the case of the beast and [p. 182] the false prophet, any more than with Satan, because the evil is manifest. Satan’s wickedness is manifest too. Of course there will be, you might say, a judgment, but the actual execution is already there when they are mentioned.
HH Might I submit what might possibly be the difference between the judgment of Babylon and the judgment of the great white throne. Is not the fall of Babylon the bringing down of a system of things, but the great white throne is the judgment of individuals.
JT That is a just remark. Babylon is a system, wickedness has more scope in a system than in an individual.
AM Could we draw a distinction between summary judgment, and what might be called delayed judgment?
JT Quite so, it is a question of what God may do. Take for instance the judgment of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. It was instantaneous; the earth swallowed them up. Whereas other judgments are delayed, for instance the mystery of iniquity. That has been working since the apostle wrote his epistle, you might say for eighteen hundred years or more, but yet God is patiently waiting for the full result; and so He waited the iniquity of the Amorites being filled. God waits for that, because He has some peculiar satisfaction, to speak reverently, in the execution of penalty on such wickedness, on the full development of the wickedness we have been speaking of. We are in the midst now of certain things, systematic things, that involve the worst kind of wickedness. God is just delaying the execution of judgment on them until His time comes, because He has a certain satisfaction in dealing with sin, and Satan.
AED Would not the Pauline light as to the judgment that is to fall upon christendom enter [p. 183] into how we regard the movements of persons back to the religious systems, such having been with us, and leaving us? Would it not give us a more sober judgment as to that kind of action?
JT Yes, you are going back to that which is apostate, and of course that is what the book of Revelation contemplates.
GA Did you not make reference some years ago to the fact that before the first shot, so to speak, is fired in the final battle, the beast and the false prophet would be cast alive into the lake of fire? Does not that delineate the matter for us?
JT Well, I think it does, because they are judged by themselves, because of the wickedness that is there. The second epistle shows the character of the wickedness, and how Satan is behind it; it is a trinity of wickedness, answering to and opposed to the divine Trinity. It is Satan’s work that God abominates, and He will wait His time to execute judgment against it. When the beast and false prophet come out fully as against Christ, because that is how they are seen — they lead their armies against Christ, they are taken alive and cast into the lake of fire at once, whereas the others are slain. There are grades of wickedness, and I think God abominates systematic wickedness more than anything else, more than any individual wickedness. These two men, the beast and the false prophet stand related to a system, and the system has the mark of what is current around us, that is to say, the unfair disallowance of a man earning his living because of this system. It is utter unfairness.
GRD In the epistle of Jude, verse 15, reference is made to executing judgment and also convicting. Is it important that conviction should go with it? “The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly”.
JT To execute judgment and to convict, that is a good point. Jude and 2 Peter help greatly in all this as well as this second epistle to the Thessalonians. All these thoughts are developed in those three books, and I believe that the Lord would help us in the matter of judgment, because it is the only alternative to the full blessing of christianity involving the gospel.
Ques May I ask why in such a chapter as this Paul should mention Satan hindering him?
JT Well, that is another thing that comes into this chapter, that there is such a thing as that, as a servant being hindered directly by Satan himself. It is all very well, of course, to say that God allows it, but then Satan does it, and that is a very solemn thing, because he is against God in what he is doing and the servant is to be watchful so that he should not expose himself to the devil’s work in that sense. “Satan hindered us”, Paul says.
PL Was not another servant hindered according to Daniel 10: 13? “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one-and-twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia”.
JT That opens up much as to prophetic announcements, especially in Daniel and as to his lot.
AJG Do you mean that Satan’s hindering may take the form of governmental restrictions or anything of that sort, which, in Satan’s mind, have in view the hindering of the testimony?
JT Well I do. Anything that would tend to interfere with any work that the brethren had in mind, things such as happened through the last war, which hindered the special meetings in New Zealand, for instance. There was a great deal of hindering that undoubtedly the war was intended for, and of course, it was a question for those of us who were engaged in the Lord’s work to be with God about it, so that these hindering things should not happen.
LPM Was the effort to keep Paul from the saints at Thessalonica? Is the effort today to keep the saints from Paul’s ministry? Is Satan in that betimes?
JT Satan would be in anything like that, but the question is how you can work out that he is against Paul’s ministry, as no doubt he is especially, but then we would not have in mind, I am sure, to say that he was not against John’s ministry or Peter’s ministry, because he is against all. Paul’s has a peculiar place, and as the great servant said, ‘Let not John’s ministry be forgotten in insisting on Paul’s’, hence we should cleave to Paul, and work it out too, as to its application to us at the present time; that is to say, the assembly being developed fully, the full thought of the assembly, and surely nothing would be more in Satan’s mind than to defeat that, but there should be the working out of the assembly according to Paul in the ministry.
AJG So that in Colossians Paul says, “Praying at the same time for us also, that God may open to us a door of the word to speak the mystery of Christ”.
JT Very good. You can count on God doing that, you mean?
AJG I thought it gave scope to the prayers of the saints, in regard of conditions in the world, that God would open the door for whatever was needed in the way of ministry.
JT And I think He is doing it too. Meetings that are being held such as this are indicative that God is doing it for us, because these meetings, and the way the saints are brought together, that is to say, those in whom God has wrought more particularly and who are able to take things in and work them out themselves, and the ministry too, and that they are set free and get help at these meetings, all [p. 186] I believe, are a peculiar evidence of God helping us against the devil.
GA Would the element of invulnerability appear in that direction, in the Lord’s movements in the wilderness, in Matthew’s gospel, so that it would be demonstrated that this principle would be here? Satan did hinder Paul; but he did not hinder the Lord, and would that be characteristic that he will not in the will of God hinder the assembly? The gates of hades do not prevail, the invulnerability of the Lord in that way is demonstrated.
JT Very good, I would say that. The assembly has peculiar means vested in her of overcoming the devil, and I believe that Babylon is just the answer to that in wickedness; that is to say; the woman in the early part of Revelation and then Babylon itself seen later. The awful wickedness there is over against the truth of the assembly, and God is helping the brethren, I am certain, in these meetings that are being held, to work out the truth of the assembly, so that the Lord would have in mind that it might be finished, because there must be a finish to it.
Ques Do you see in the spirit of Python and the experiences at Philippi in the jail, two efforts of the enemy to prevent the truth coming into Europe and hence to Australia, that there was nothing in the servants that the enemy could lay hold of, and so the work not only goes on but prospers in those very circumstances?
JT Very good. The passage in Acts 16 is a very fine statement of the position, that in praying, they were praising God with singing, a great triumph, and then they were able to evangelise the jailer.
AM Do you think that Satan will not be so concerned about us if we keep to ourselves, but if we come out into the light, we may expect perhaps more definite attacks on the [p. 187] testimony?
JT In trade unions there is a widespread means of attack at any time, but there is resistance to it, and there may be governmental resistance. It is a remarkable thing that the United States has legislated against it quite recently, whereas in Great Britain the opposite is in view. All these things are to be taken notice of, and I believe in this country the thing is all laid ready for the attack, and so there is a great need of the brethren being faithful to the truth, and carrying on, as we are carrying on now. What happened seven or eight years ago before this war was a proposal for a meeting of this kind in New Zealand, but that never took place. Well, that was the enemy undoubtedly, but still the way is open yet for this, and is all to the end that the truth of the assembly might proceed and go through.
Ques In Acts 16, verse 6, the apostle and Silas “having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia ... attempted to go to Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them”. How would the apostle know that it was the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Jesus that was hindering his movements into Asia and Bithynia, and that it was Satan that was hindering his movements into Thessalonica?
JT That would be a question of spiritual discernment. A man who was walking in the Spirit, as he was, was almost a personal antagonist of Satan. Paul acted in that way, and if Satan hindered him or the Spirit of God hindered him from going to such and such a place, it would be that he would go to some other place, and that other place was Europe, that is to say Macedonia, leading the way to Europe generally.
PL Paul was known in hell as a redoubtable warrior. He was singled out as is evident in Acts 19: 15: “Paul I am acquainted with”.