READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (2)
READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (2)
JT It is thought that we should read the third chapter with a view to speaking of the temple, but also touch on chapter 2. In these epistles to Corinth there is much allusion to Paul himself, to his ministry and to himself generally. It is to be noted because it indicates that he was intended to be a model. We mentioned yesterday that the book of Exodus has in it a suggestion of the pattern, and there was to be no deviation from that pattern. It is thought that the apostle Paul, like the Lord Jesus, is an example of everything as Paul himself says, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ”, chapter 11: 1. Paul is not excluding Christ from the idea of pattern, yet Paul, a creature like ourselves, is intended to represent the mind of God in ministry, as well as being an example of christianity or christians. According to Genesis, at that time in the history of man, the speakers, or servants of God were generally left free as to what they might say or do, but in Exodus God is very particular as to pattern, and Moses was responsible as to the pattern, the pattern of the tabernacle shown him on the mount.
Now in view of all this, chapter 2 says “And I, when I came to you, brethren, came not in excellency of word, or wisdom, announcing to you the testimony of God. For I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling; and my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power; that your faith might not stand in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power”. The apostle thus shows us the example [p. 43] intended to be followed in these epistles, and in a wider sense in the whole assembly at all times. Ministry therefore is to be gauged by what the saints may be in any given place, what their measure may be, what they have already acquired in the sense of knowledge or growth, and so Paul here says that when he came to them, he did not come in excellency of speech, or of words or wisdom, but he says further, “I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified”. It is a very remarkable thing that a minister, whoever he may be, is not to assume to be beyond the measure of the saints to whom he is ministering. He does not wish to convey to them that he is far beyond them, but rather that he is one of them and would learn with them, but at the same time be an example to them, using skill in this sense.
FJF Would you say that in Genesis there was no established economy regulating men, but in Exodus God establishes His economy, even as today?
JT Very good. There is an economy, although it has been sadly departed from; in fact, we might say that the thought of it is given up in general amongst the professing people of God. It is, therefore, all the more needed that those of us who would walk in the truth and follow the Lord as Paul did, should be guided by the example that has been spoken of, the example that Paul sets before us, as he said, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ”. So that Christ is still the example here, only He is to be apprehended through Paul. The Lord speaks of him as “an elect vessel to me”, Acts 9: 15. He had been selected by the Lord for this very purpose, not simply that he should be a christian, but that he should be an example to all christians in regard to the teaching and principles governing christianity and the assembly.
AWP [p. 44] What you are speaking of is referred to in Galatians 3, “To whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you”.
JT Paul’s example, even going so far as to portray Christ crucified, as though He was crucified among them. They had the full thought of christianity set before them, but they were deviating from it, even more than the Corinthians, especially as taking up judaism.
HW Would you say these first five verses of chapter 2 give us what is basic, and must remain while what is for the Lord is here? “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” and the Holy Spirit the power of things.
JT I think it is well to keep that in mind, because verse 5 says, “that your faith might not stand in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power”. What is current amongst christians generally today is not simply God’s wisdom or God’s word, or God’s principles, but man’s, very largely; hence men are sent to college to be ministers; not that there is anything wrong in learning so long as it is under control, and that we are using it for the sake of the truth. The wisdom of the brethren is to keep within the range of the knowledge of any given company or of the brethren generally, so that all should learn together, that the principle of mutual feeling should govern our dealings one with another. The one who serves amongst them can afford to be like them, to get down to the same level so that all should learn together; the principle of mutual feeling should govern our relations one with another. So he says in verse 6 of chapter 2, “We speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought. But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory”. The full progress of any one in any company is to be recognised, but he would be glad, though the brethren recognise it, to fall in with where they are, and move with them in so far as they can move together in the truth.
PL “Ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake”, 2 Corinthians 4: 5: Would it be in that spirit?
JT Just so. We are to be the servants of the saints; not simply the servants of Christ, or the servants of God, but we are the servants of the saints too, which is a very sobering thing to keep before us as ministering.
PL “Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas”, and so on, “all are yours”.
JT And then to guard that, to balance it, “Ye are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s”.
FJF Would what you are speaking of be in practice the truth of the body carried out experimentally as we learn together?
JT Very good; and so it is, as we hope to come to it in the Lord’s supper. We have the word “I speak as to intelligent persons”; that is to say, as partakers of the Lord’s supper, as having part in the assembly in principle, we should be intelligent; even although recently converted, we should be intelligent according to measure. As christians we have more wisdom than the angels, in that we have the Holy Spirit and therefore we should be intelligent.
JPvN Would you say that the Lord Jesus gave us an example when He laid aside His garments and girded Himself with a towel to wash the feet of His disciples?
JT Just so. He led the way for them, not as to their teaching but an example generally. We are supposed to serve the saints, to wash their feet, as “servants for Jesus’ sake”. It is not out of the way for a servant to go to the very lowest point to serve the saints and so the Lord said He was amongst His own “as the one that serves”. Luke 22: 27. Paul too worked with his own hands to earn wages in order to be able to give to the saints.
CMM Would the wisdom of chapter 2 and the meat of chapter 3 be what Paul was ministering at Ephesus at that time? Would he be adjusting the truth to suit the Ephesians in that way, and on a lower note the Corinthians?
JT Very good, and he says to the Ephesians: “Whereby ... ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery”. He wished them to know his knowledge, what his measure was.
PL Does this fit into the portion of “meat in due season” as referred to in Psalm 104: 27 and Psalm 145: 15? The due seasons bear on it.
JT The Lord intended that the household, meaning the saints viewed as a household, the assembly, should have meat in due season. The apostle here follows that principle, because he determined to know nothing amongst the Corinthians but Jesus Christ and Him crucified; that is to say, he gauged what they needed. And again in verse 6 of chapter 2, “We speak wisdom among the perfect” and he goes on further to speak about this wisdom; “We speak God’s wisdom in a mystery”. This is a point for us all to bear in mind, that christianity is not a thing to be understood by everybody, by persons uninstructed or unconverted; it is mysterious, and we are to take on that attitude, as those who are entrusted with the mysteries of God. It seems to me they are available to us, and so, “We speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew”, showing that the most learned people of the world know nothing about these things, and are not able to follow them either, “for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
[p. 47] but according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man’s heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God”. Paul then adds, “But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means”, In the ‘we‘ of this passage he would include himself particularly as representing the highest feature of instruction, but at the same time, he would lead all the brethren into it, and give them instruction such as they could take in and assimilate.
FJF All the learning of the Greeks would be shut out as one comes into the things of God?
JT Just so, because the Greeks seek after wisdom, that is what is of man, what is called the classics, of course. It puffs up man, as learning does, but this epistle is to keep us lowly, so that we go along with the lowly. Let us learn all we can, but learn it in a spiritual way.
WSS The apostle was among them as speaking these things; that is, the things of God. It says, “Which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak”.
JT Quite so; “which also we speak”. How striking it must have been to hear that one man speaking the full thought of the Scriptures. As we remarked yesterday, we are to move together in a mutual way, not assuming to lord it over God’s heritage, or to be superior to the brethren, but move [p. 48] with them, and in moving with them to show what can be amongst us, although it may be only in one, for it is well to observe what there is in each one, what brethren are, what they may have, what they are able to do and say, so that we might reach their way and learn from them as Paul says, “The measure ... to reach to you also”.
FJF Would that be by basing everything upon Scripture? How would it practically take form?
JT Scripture, of course, is our guide for everything in a literal sense, but then we, especially young people, have also to observe what older people do and say and how they say things. It is said of the Lord Jesus, “He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak”, Mark 7: 37. The Lord is the example in that sense, but there is also now what we are coming to in chapter 3; what is called the “temple of God”. The body of every christian is a temple in a certain sense, because he has the Holy Spirit, but the word ‘temple’ in chapter 3 is a collective thought; “Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God ... ?”; ye, that is to say, the saints at Corinth, and that is because they not only were converted but they had the Spirit of God dwelling among them and had understanding too. Therefore, a local company anywhere as formed according to the truth of the assembly, could be designated in that way and therefore when they come together to look into the things of God, they have the character of the temple of God. The word ‘temple’ was applied even to the body of Christ when here. In chapter 2 of this epistle the word ‘mind’ is applied to us as to Christ. “We have the mind of Christ”; the same mind as Christ has, meaning the same thinking faculty that He has, and so therefore we can take in the things of God. However deep they may be, according to the measure that is possible we can take them in, therefore we [p. 49] should not give up, or think that we do not understand. We have the Spirit of God, and as Paul says elsewhere, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding”, 2 Timothy 2: 7. If we are attentive to the ministry, and perhaps do not understand, the Lord will give understanding. Let us pray if we have a difficulty, and He will give understanding.
CMP Is the knowledge of the things of God connected with the Spirit searching all things?
JT The allusion is to the depths of God. The Spirit searches them. John says in his first epistle, “Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things”. It is a somewhat different word from that usually employed for the Spirit, but it refers to the Spirit, and what we have as a result that we may know all things.
WSS Does the thought of the temple in verse 16, link with the Lord’s remark in John 2, when He says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”?
JT Well, it is the same word, but in an infinite sense applied to Christ; He alludes to Himself in speaking thus. It refers to Christ’s body, as a Man, that although they might kill Him, He would be raised; He could raise Himself, because He is a divine Person.
PL So He is viewed there as the shrined Deity.
WSS Was the shrine here in the Lord personally, but the shrine is still here, is it not?
JT Well, the word ‘shrine’ conveys what we are dealing with. It depends on the presence of the Spirit now, not the Spirit as in the Deity Itself, but as in the saints; that is, in the assembly.
HW Would you connect the temple with the hidden wisdom in the previous chapter? It was the inward side of christianity that was lacking in Corinth.
JT [p. 50] I would say that God has helped the brethren as He has helped the saints from the very outset of christianity, so that they have learnt to come together, and to read the Scriptures together and to pray together and to worship together. Matthew enlarges on these thoughts in saying, “Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. That is the Lord’s own word, spoken as recorded by Matthew to show that, however reduced we are in numbers, this thought that we are now treating of may apply to us; that is, the thought of the shrine, the temple, because Christ is with us. It is also consequent on the saints being together, not simply so many persons, but together, which would mean, together in assembly. “Two of you” would mean two of the assembly, those who have the Spirit and understand the assembly; “two of you” are of that class. They have part in the assembly and can function as of the assembly.
CMM In that way we can count on the Lord for a measure of temple light in all our Scripture readings together, although the temple in its fullest sense involves the whole assembly in the city.
JT I think that will come before us later. It is well to bring it up now, so as to make the position clear. The Lord has helped us I believe in these last days, during the time of the revival, extending back now nearly one hundred and twenty years, in which the Spirit of God has been freely operating. During this time certain methods have been taken on which are scriptural although they may not be exactly as they were at the beginning; that is to say, Bible readings and addresses among the brethren and there are many other things like that. So that we are learning, steadily learning, and coming to a knowledge of the truth; not ever learning, and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. The important [p. 51] thing is to be learners, to be ever learning and learning in a true sense. The prophet speaking of the Lord Himself in the days of His flesh says Jehovah opened His ear morning by morning as the learner, so that He might speak a word to him that was weary, a word in season.
FJF If there are only two or three in a small city or town, who come together thus, appreciating that God’s mind with regard to the greatness of the truth is not altered, they can count upon the Spirit helping them.
JT Quite so. They can use written ministry too, I suppose you would say. We have written ministry, very often used, and very rightly used too and very important. Written ministry is what may be called an aid to the teaching of the apostle. So Paul himself asked Timotheus to bring the books, certain books. It does not indicate that they were his own writings; and then he said “especially the parchments”. The notes that are taken amongst the brethren in recent years are of great value, because they afford the means to carry the truth to distant parts, to persons who are at a distance from the ministry.
FJF Would that be recognising the temple in its fullest sense?
JT I think so. The temple, of course, always refers either to Christ, or to the Spirit in the saints. It does not refer to one isolated person, but to the saints who love one another coming together at any time and looking into things; the Spirit of God is with them and they take on the character of the temple as referred to in 1 Corinthians 3. The apostle Paul proceeds in chapter 3 saying, “And I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly”, showing how gatherings, local companies, may become very low in their state, in not availing themselves of what is to hand and in [p. 52] not improving themselves, so that they might grow in the true knowledge of God. Paul has to say that they were not spiritual, but fleshly, as babes in Christ. Peter alludes to babes in another sense. In saying, “as newborn babes” Peter brings out that newborn babes have good taste and discernment as to food. Such are fresh and their minds are clear and so it is not a derogatory thought in Peter, but it is here in Corinthians. To remain babes as Paul speaks of them is derogatory because we should be steadily growing.
MTSV You referred last night to prayer being linked with current events in the assembly. Might the parchments refer to current ministry?
JT Quite so. It is not very clear, but they would refer to something written by Paul, because they are distinguished from books. The service of writing or of taking notes of spiritual ministry is important, because they can be passed on, so that brethren elsewhere may get the gain of what there may be in that sense. To the Corinthians the apostle says, “Ye are yet carnal”, which means they are just natural men, and they have not developed in the truth and thus become spiritually grown men. I think this reminds us that the apostle Paul is dealing with the Corinthians as recently converted people. No doubt many were converted much earlier than they were, but in general, I would say, the Corinthians were recently converted and therefore treated very tenderly by the apostle. Some amongst them were going on very badly, for in the second letter he says he is reserving what he had in mind in the sense of vengeance, or judgment, until the generality of the saints at Corinth had arrived at the truth, as he says, “When your obedience shall have been fulfilled”. Chapters 2 and 3 of the first epistle are specially aimed at that, as he calls attention to how he came down to just where they were, and brings [p. 53] himself in, not treating them as chapter 5 does. He does not at the outset treat of the persons who were practising wickedness; he does not touch on them until chapter 5, where he deals with one of them whose conduct was worse even than that of the nations. In these earlier chapters Paul is dealing with them as a whole; they had not advanced very much, so he did not want to damage them, or to cause anything, as it were, to scare them. Paul did not want to do that as to the Corinthians, to scare even the young ones lest they might be turned aside.
CMP Would there be help for us in dealing with what may be morally very low, that if the spiritual state is improved a truer moral judgment may be reached in individuals?
JT And to lead them on, as we shall see, is Paul’s method with the Corinthians. He said to them in chapter 4 that he had sent Timothy to them. He did not want to come himself, because if he came, he would have to resort to apostolic authority, and therefore he sends a younger man; that is Timotheus, his own child in the faith, so that they might observe Paul’s ways, and learn the truth from such a one as Timothy.
FJF So he acted very tenderly towards them.
JT Quite so. We are struck too with the success of it.
JEM Is what you have been saying in connection with the first and second chapters basic, as we approach the thought of the hill of God, in its present position relative to the Philistines, with a view to our getting further help in the midweek readings? Christ as God’s power and God’s wisdom and the Spirit of God are available, indicating what there is in a locality for correction, and for the building up of what is for God among the saints in the locality.
JT That raises the whole question as to ministry and what has come before the saints during recent [p. 54] years as to the weekdays, that is to say from Monday to Saturday. The first day of the week when we have so much that is spiritual, has a distinction of its own that no other day has. It is the day on which Christ was raised by the glory of the Father, not simply by the power of the Father, but by the glory of the Father, and hence the peculiar distinction attached to the first day of the week, affording much instruction too for us, but then the other days of the week have not the same spiritual advantages. The midweek meetings, therefore, afford help, specially for the brethren as having to do with this world’s affairs and the earning of their living and providing for their wives and children; they have to come in contact with what is defiling and what would tend to weaken them spiritually, and hence the great need for other meetings besides what there are on the Lord’s day. Alluding to the midweek meetings, a meeting, say, on a Thursday (brethren will understand I am speaking very simply and practically) affords help to the brethren in the days when it is specially needed. In addition to the first day of the week and the prayer meeting on Monday night, which has now become customary, they have another meeting, not simply for the readings at the different rooms in any given town, but for the whole assembly in the place to come together at one time and in one hall; that is in chapter 14. The gathering together on other days in the different rooms is also right, even as the breaking of bread, but if the thought of “the hill of God” be understood and apprehended, then we must have the whole assembly come together at one time for ministry. All the gifts that may be available in the town are there, the prophetic men ministering and these are all available to all the saints in the place. That is what is in mind. What our brother has alluded to, the midweek meetings, have in mind the additional thought of supporting [p. 55] and furnishing and helping forward generally all the saints in a town at the same time.
FJF It gives us a very needed stimulus to go on throughout the whole week as being encouraged in coming thus together.
JT The “hill of God” alluded to in 1 Samuel 10 was in the camp of the Philistines; it should not have been there. Where the saints are walking in the light of the assembly and in the power of the Spirit, the Philistine will not have his place there. He has not such a place here today for instance. If we resort to Scripture and the ministry the Spirit affords, the hill of God will be in the hands of the saints themselves and they will be able to help one another. They will not need a clergyman or ordained minister, as he is called. They will be able to help one another, which is a great matter.
SPS Would you make any distinction between that which is called the city reading and those in the different gatherings in a place? Is there anything different in character?
JT There would be less power in the smaller gatherings because all the gifts cannot be there. I am supposing that there are gifts, and there are (this epistle contemplates that there were gifts at Corinth), and they should be there when all the saints are together at one time. The gifts should be there, and hence the instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 is of prime importance.
CMM You would encourage us to continue with both readings?
JT Quite so. It is because we need them. If there are many saints, as for instance in London, or in other large places, where there are several meetings in a city, they afford additional help in each part of the city beside the city meetings when all in the place [p. 56] come together.
FJF The Lord seems to come in in a very special way in these midweek meetings. They seem to convey a very tangible sense of the assembly as gathered together which we do not have on other occasions.
JT Hence the assembly would throw light on the whole position. 1 Corinthians 12 tells us about the gifts; “Concerning spiritual manifestations, brethren, I do not wish you to be ignorant. Ye know that when ye were of the nations” (he is alluding to that because they had not been long away from paganism) “ye were led away to dumb idols, in whatever way ye might be led. I give you therefore to know that no one, speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, says, Curse on Jesus;” (that is a test), “and no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit”. Well, that ought to appeal to every single one of us to say, “Lord Jesus”, but the apostle in saying this implies that it is not simply the words, “Lord Jesus”, but the power that accompanies the words. “There are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all. But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit. For to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; and to a different one faith, in the power of the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing in the power of the same Spirit; and to another operations of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to a different one kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues. But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases. For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ”. Now that is the general thought, as when we are together.
[p. 57] In the concluding verses, the gifts are mentioned, so that we have to distinguish the first part of chapter 12, as applying to a local company, and the second part which applies to the whole assembly in a universal sense. When we touch the whole assembly then all the gifts are there, and hence the great advantage of large gatherings such as we have had in Glasgow and London and that we hope to have in Sydney and elsewhere, so that we might get the gain of all the gifts as far as possible, whatever they are.
AM Is the thought of gifts linked up with the idea of building, developed in chapter 3? It is for edification.
JT Just so, so that we have here Paul and Apollos and Cephas. He says, “Who then is Apollos, and who Paul?” The answer to that is “ministering servants, through whom ye have believed, and as the Lord has given to each. I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase”. That is to say, we have in these two men the idea of gifts and how they work, the one plants and another waters and God gives the increase.
AM I am not quite clear as to the link between the agricultural thought and the constructional thought of the building.
JT We have already touched on the agricultural side, the watering and the planting; but then it goes on to say in verse 8, “But the planter and the waterer are one; but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God’s fellow-workmen; ye are God’s husbandry”; that is the agricultural thought; then “God’s building”; that is the structural side. Paul says, “According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid [p. 60] the foundation, but another builds upon it”. We have [p. 58] the two sides, the structural side is a question of building, and skill in it. Paul uses the word architect, “a wise architect”. He had a special place. Paul alone was the architect, Apollos was not the architect. It is in keeping with what is said to Peter by the Lord Himself in Matthew, “Thou art Peter” meaning that he was material for the building, and the Lord says, as to Peter’s confession of Himself, as the Son of the living God, “And on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. It is to bring out what we have here, but more. Peter is not the builder, as some would say; he is the material for the building. The word is, “thou art Peter”, whereas the Lord had already laid the foundation.
WSS I was thinking of what the apostle says, “as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it”. Paul’s ministry would all be linked with that, would it not?
JT Therefore, we can see that Paul has a distinct place. Peter had one too. Peter and Paul had distinct places in regard to the structure, the building, and Paul, it would seem, is especially taken on in regard of the assembly. Peter is not taken on in that full sense, he is taken on administratively. The Lord says to him, “I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens”. But he was not given the ministry of building; Paul was given that. Peter does allude to the material, the stones, but Paul was the architect. Peter is never said to be that, nor is anyone else. Paul is an elect vessel unto Christ, and therefore in the chapter we are dealing with now, he regards himself as the architect of the assembly.
WSS Does the word, “But let each see how he builds upon it”, put every one of us under responsibility?
JT Just so, but I would say specially persons that are in special service.
WSS And it was to be upon that foundation.
CMP Is that because it must be in accordance with the pattern?
JT I would say that; the pattern must run through. The pattern in Exodus is just a type, whereas the New Testament furnishes the reality, what comes from the hands of Christ and His apostles in the power of the Spirit, but the Old Testament helps greatly. It says, indeed, that every Scripture is divinely inspired, in alluding to the Old Testament as well as to the New, and this accounts for the help we have in ministry from the Old Testament.
AM All true building is to be God’s building in character by the Spirit.
JT Just so. That is what they were at Corinth, God’s building. We must come back to God. That is the general principle of the scripture. We must come back to God in everything.
EAW Will you help us a little in relation to the recognition of gift?
JT Where such may be there is special ability from God which must be treated as universal, and on this basis the saints, “all that in every place ...”, should be sure to avail themselves of it. It is a question of God, and His workmanship. God is the Giver of the increase. “The planter and the waterer are one; but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God’s fellow-workmen” (which I think would allude to Paul particularly); “ye are God’s husbandry, God’s building. According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it”. I think that “another” would allude to a workman in a special sense, although I would not exclude the general thought, for every one can do something in a sense of edification.
WOS In regard to this question of recognising gifts, would Paul correspond with Moses in having received what he ministered from the glory? The Israelites were able to take account of Moses’ face, that it shone.
JT Paul in that sense would correspond with Moses. In fact he speaks of himself in that way in certain places, and we can see that God has His special men, particularly men like Paul, outstanding men; there are none like them. In chapter 12 of Numbers, God tells us what He thought of Moses. As to Paul, I would think that the Lord gave him special liberty to speak of himself; I do not think he had any great pleasure in speaking of himself, but he does so because he was a typical man, a man that should be followed. He tells us too, how much he worked; it is most remarkable, the enormous amount of work he went through and the amount of travelling, so that we can rightly understand what the Lord meant when He said, “This man is an elect vessel to me”.
PL Gideon said to his men, “Look on me, and do likewise”, Judges 7: 17. Then at the end of the verse, “it shall be that, as I do, so shall ye do”. Is that leadership?
JT Just so. There are many like them, but as regards Moses and Paul, they are unique.
FJF Are you referring to chapter 4 of the second epistle in saying that Paul had liberty to speak of himself and all he passed through? It is practically the subject of the whole chapter. “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not [p. 61] from us; every way afflicted, but not straitened”, and so on. He gives a great list.
JT Yes. As you run on through that epistle you come to a list of things that he mentions in chapter 11. He descends to the thought of folly, as if he were at liberty to do this, to speak in folly so as to help the Corinthians, and he tells them the things that he did and that God had done through him, and so he says, at the end, verse 29, “Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I burn not? If it is needful to boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows — he who is blessed for ever — that I do not lie. In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes shut up, wishing to take me; and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands”. And then he goes on to the visions that he had, that he was caught up to the third heaven and into Paradise, showing what an extraordinary man he was, what extraordinary experience, and what extraordinary power was given to him towards the Corinthians.
JEM It is well to bear in mind in our localities that Paul has the last word in regard to assembly matters. It was given to him to complete the word of God.
JT Quite so.
JEM And then Peter, his great contemporary, speaks so favourably of him, saying, “According as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; among which some things are hard to be understood, which the untaught and ill-established wrest, as also the other scriptures, to their own destruction”. The instructions necessary for the locality are to be found in Paul’s writings.
JT [p. 62] Well that is what I would say, not indeed that Peter is excluded, because in his first epistle he does speak in similar language to Paul’s, but you do feel that Paul has the very last word, as it were from heaven, even as the completion of the word of God. Surely the Lord should have liberty and right to present such a vessel, admiring him as He did, His own handiwork. He would guide Peter, His other great servant, to call Paul “our beloved brother Paul”, and to make clear that his ministry was the word of God, “as also the other scriptures”. Paul’s letters are designated in that sense as the word of God by Peter.
WSS So that in matters of local exercise we should pay strict attention to what Paul had to say and not take our directions from the Old Testament.
JT I think it is well that you have brought that up, because one has observed that the Old Testament scriptures are sometimes brought in by themselves, and Paul is overlooked and Peter overlooked, whereas at the beginning of the dispensation the word says that the believers “persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers”. It was not in the Old Testament service, but in that of the apostles; it was not Moses, not Abraham, not any of the Old Testament servants, but the apostles, showing that we are all to understand the character of this dispensation, that it is unique. We belong to it and we should shine in it.
SPS Would you help us more on the question of recognising gift?
JT I think Paul in using himself so much covers the whole ground. No one speaks so much about himself as Paul, and that is clearly not that he wanted to, or that he was boastful of himself, but rather that the Lord used him in that sense, the [p. 63] Spirit of God had liberty to use Paul in that sense to bring him out as a model for all saints at all times.
CMM Were the Corinthians going to be tested by the coming of Timotheus? “Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear”. They would have to recognise gift, would they not?
JT Quite so. He was a timid man, apparently, and Paul probably had that in mind in sending him. He did not go himself because he might have had to use the rod, in fact he raised the question with them as to whether they would prefer to have him come, but he did not go, showing that he was careful about the young Corinthian saints, that they should not be turned aside by anything and that wisdom should be used in all that was done for them.
WSS That passage may help in regard to this question of recognising gift. “I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways, as they are in Christ”. Such a brother coming among us and putting Paul’s ministry before us would be recognised as one with gift.
JT Quite so. And things are gathered up in that way, and it is all tending to the completion of the assembly, so that the assembly should be fit for translation.
HW With regard to acknowledging gifts, the apostle says, “Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood”, 1 Timothy 4: 14. Would you expect anything of that kind today?
JT Well, “the hands of the elderhood”; there is such a thing as elderhood today, I suppose.
HW I was wondering whether we could look for any movement of the Spirit of God in that way, or whether gift is more set out in a man like [p. 64] the apostle.
JT The idea of eldership should be fostered, and the two epistles that speak of it especially are 1 Timothy and Titus. I think it should be fostered, and hence it is that we have the description of an elder and what should characterise him, but it has to be remembered that eldership never extends beyond a local position; it is always local. They were ordained for every assembly, or for cities, though they are not in the same category as the gifts referred to in 1 Corinthians 12 or Ephesians 4. At the same time they fit in with the truth of Ephesians, because the elders of Ephesus were called for by Paul at Miletus. They were called over to meet him, and he spoke to them as if they were representatives of the whole assembly, but I think that has to be taken with intelligence, because elsewhere elders are only for the local position.