THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (5)

^[p. 241] THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (5)

1 Thessalonians 5: 1 - 28; 2 Thessalonians 1: 1 - 12

JT It is thought well to linger a little on the protracted period, the prophetic period, before touching the final thought, God in judgment, in chapter 2. The suddenness of the judgment is touched on in chapter 5 of the first epistle, where the word is, “But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to, for ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night”. The disciples inquired of the Lord, according to Acts 1, as to whether the kingdom should be restored to Israel then, but the Lord said that it was not for them to know the times and seasons. Evidently Paul had instructed the Thessalonians as to the general position as to judgment, so that is it carried down here, and in chapter 1 of the second epistle, the suddenness of the judgment being touched on. The Lord told His own at the beginning, that it was not for them to know the times and seasons, but the Father had reserved them in His own power, and that thought is generally prevalent in Scripture, especially in Mark, where the Lord says that no one knows the times alluded to but the Father, not even the Son; it is a remarkable thing that the Lord should be content to accept this. The book of Revelation evidently was held in abeyance in the Father’s thoughts until God gave it to Christ, so that He should show to His bondmen what must shortly take place; so that we may have some inkling as to coming events, even before the actual facts of judgment are begun in the ways of God. John is the one that seems to have most to say, especially as to the great ^[p. 242] white throne.

AJG Does this thought of the Father reserving the times in His own authority link on at all with the thought of the patience of the Christ?

JT I think it would. We can only speak of it according to what it is, really, as inscrutable, the inscrutableness of the Godhead; and the Lord Jesus, the second Person of the Deity, is content to accept what the words imply. And so John was in mind, the Lord reserving him, you might say, for whatever matters might come up in the course of the dispensation; whatever matters might come up. He has one under His hand who has His confidence. And so in Revelation 1: 9 John says, “I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus”. His position is clear, that he is thoroughly with the Lord in the whole matter, and with the brethren too, because they are brought into it. “Your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus”. The note says, ‘The words’tribulation’,’kingdom’,’patience’are intimately connected, being brought together under one head by one article in the Greek’. This shows how the apostle’s mind was set, and how he brings the saints into it, speaking of them as his fellow-partakers in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus. The seven assemblies are in mind, of course, in this, so that the assembly is brought into the position of judgment, the execution of it, and the Lord shows Himself in this first chapter as in the midst of the lamps. He is not mentioned first, but the lamps are mentioned first, as in verses 12, 13: “And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment”; the lamps are seen first. That is to show ^[p. 243] that the Lord is identified with the seven lamps, the seven assemblies, and they are mentioned first, as if they were of prime importance in the position, even as regards judgment, to have a part in it.

GA Would all this that you are now speaking of disclose another intervention with its own divine characteristics?

JT It is another, and it evidently came in late in the course of the testimony. Possibly John’s gospel came in later, but evidently this book came in late in the disclosures of God, in the course of the testimony, and it is important that we should know and understand how we are brought into them, and especially that the assembly is brought into them, and the Lord is seen in the midst of the lamps.

EESL Was the turning round of John necessary because he had his mind set upon the coming kingdom, whereas a period of judgment intervenes?

JT Well, he would be occupied with heavenly things, I would think. If we were to consult his gospel, or what might precede it, or even his epistles, we may conclude that he would be occupied with heavenly things, but especially with eternal life and what is substantial in regard to life. And so he is ready to turn round, and he is called back to certain conditions that he would wish to be out of, and would soon be out of, because the Lord would take him; although he is evidently reserved for something, and the Lord is not disclosing what that is. So this book shows how things become disclosed as they are needed. The Lord did not disclose everything at the beginning, although He had spoken of many things that He had in His mind and would be disclosing in due course, the course of the testimony being revealed in the Scriptures. But there is really comparatively little disclosure at the outset.

PL With reference to the scripture in 1 Peter, “The time of having the judgment begin from the ^[p. 244] house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?”. Is His judicial dealing with the assembly a necessary prelude to God taking up judicial dealings with the earth?

JT I think it is God patiently pursuing His ways in Christ; Christ having come, having become incarnate, and as become Man He is ready for the mind of God, at any time. And then in due course we have the apostles, the twelve associated with Him, but the gospels came in late too, relatively, because they were written by such as Matthew, and Mark, and Luke, and John, some of them apostles. They were written by these men, and what they wrote came in comparatively late, but then they were disclosures. God would prepare His people for coming events. He always does that, He gives inklings to us, whether by ministry, or even by current events. He gives inklings to us as to them, and I think that is the character of John’s writings here, that the Lord took him up, and calls him a bondman, and then appears to him in this sense. He was in certain conditions and circumstances in the isle called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus. That is, he was right, he was just where he should be when the event came, and then he is told what to do, he is told what to write, and the order in which it is to be written. So that the matter becomes extremely important, especially as we come near to the end. God would give indications, in ministry especially, as to what may come. And what you have just said would be preparatory. God being merciful, as it is said, “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Yet He gives indications in a preparatory way so that men may know what is coming.

Ques The Lord said in Matthew 24: 32, 33, “But learn the parable from the fig-tree: When ^[p. 245] already its branch becomes tender and produces leaves, ye know that the summer is near. Thus also ye, when ye see all these things, know that it is near, at the doors”. Is that the principle to lay hold of?

JT Quite so. He gives them indications beforehand.

CAI Would the word in Amos 3: 7, confirm that? “But the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”.

JT Well, that is a good scripture to bring in here, meaning that the prophets are His special men. There are the law and the prophets, but the prophets are God’s special men in the Old Testament, and so He would make them His confidants in view of what He would have to say through them.

LPM Is this protracted period, to which you have alluded, needed for the later unfolding of Paul’s ministry?

JT Well, the Lord had Paul in His mind, and had him in reserve, because He says of him, “This man is an elect vessel to me”, and He tells us what he would do for Him, and what He would show him. So that the time had come for him, and that only illustrates what we have been saying, that there are the preparatory matters, and then the prophetic matters, revelations as to the assembly which were given to Paul. All these came in in due course, but did not come in at once. It would not be easy to point out just the period, the time elapsing, but they did not all come in at once. That is to say, the saints were to learn to be patient, and to go on with what they had, and to make the most of what they had, and not to go beyond what they had. And so the apostles were always a check, and that is what you get in the appointment of deacons. The apostles, that is the twelve, were minded that they could not do everything, they could not do all that was coming ^[p. 246] to them, and so they appointed the deacons. And many other things like that, the saints had to wait and to see what would come about, but had not to go beyond what came about, but had to keep to the truth. And hence “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Christ to suffer”, and so forth.

GA Would the scripture in Luke 21: 36 bear upon the matter, “Watch therefore, praying at every season, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things which are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man”.

JT Just so. And then the terrible thing, the suggestion of the Lord as to the days of the Son of man, that they would be like the days of Noah, showing that the judgment is a terrible thing, especially when we think of the whole world at that time being devastated, except eight persons. Eight persons!

JEC In connection with your remark as to John, are we very much cast on the Spirit as to what is coming. It says in John 16: 13, “But whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming”. Would that be prophetic speaking in the assembly by the Spirit?

JT I think so. You say prophetic, but then there is more than that thought; that is to say there are the actual disclosures of love by the Father and the Son, and then by the Father to the Son. All these result in the formation of the saints in the assembly, because the assembly is the prime thought in mind from the very outset.

AED Would the passage in Matthew 24 bear on it, “Who then is the faithful and prudent bondman whom his lord has set over his household, to give them food in season? Blessed is that bondman whom his lord on coming shall find doing thus”.

JT Well, that shows that every one of us ought to be on the alert now, as to doing that. That we ^[p. 247] may be found doing it when the Lord comes, because it is a question of food.

AED And the thought of “in season” would bear out what you say as to any particular phase in the church’s history?

JT Quite so. And then as we have been saying, this book of Revelation is so full and precise, because it is given to Christ by God, “which God gave to him, to shew to his bondman”. He has given it to Christ for the saints, but then it begins and ends with the assembly. That is, the assembly is apprised of what God is doing, and used in it. So that we must be sure to bring the assembly in in all that we are doing.

PHH Is that the reason why the reader is called blessed. “Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things written in it; for the time is near” (verse 3). The judgment being so drastic, one has sometimes wondered at the word ‘blessed’. Is it to be understood in the light of the assembly having a place here?

JT Clearly, and as indicating a premium, so to speak, on the reading of the Apocalypse. So that it should be thoroughly understood. It should not be regarded in any sense as a sealed book. It is for us. And hence John says in verse 4, “John to the seven assemblies which are in Asia”. Notice this, the seven assemblies. They were first in mind, first and last in mind. They must be apprised of everything that is done. If it be a question of creation, it was not so, and even in the economy of the Old Testament it was not so. But as soon as the assembly is formed, it is so, and it is for us to understand that it is so, and to keep to it. So that the letters that the Lord sends to the assemblies are to enforce what He has in His mind, that He thinks of the assembly all the time, and it is our very safeguard to let it into ^[p. 248] everything, not only that it should be acquainted with things, but that it is ready to serve in whatever way it may be needed.

Ques Would the result be a clearer and more definite line of demarcation between the assembly and the world? I wondered whether that line was clearly delineated in the chapter we were considering, the difference between those who are aware of what is about to happen, and those upon whom this sudden destruction comes.

JT The Lord really does what was already, intimated. Jehovah would do nothing except He showed it to His servants the prophets. That is the position here really. And so the Lord takes John and gives him instructions as to the order in which it is to be written.

PHH May I ask what you meant by saying the assembly is always ready to serve?

JT Well, in principle it is. The letters which the Lord wrote to the assemblies disclosed much failure in them, but in principle it is that there is that here in the Spirit’s power which is in accord with heaven; that is a very great thing to have before us, because it is a question of the Spirit, but the Spirit in the assemblies, and then if we connect what we have had already with Matthew, the Lord is here always, so that we are well cared for, guided too, as to what should be done.

DJM Is that the thought of being sons of light, in this chapter?

JT Quite so. That is very important to keep before us. John of course would enlarge on that in his gospel.

GRD Would you distinguish between the thought of the disclosures you have been speaking of, and then what Paul says, that the word of God was ^[p. 249] completed?

JT Well, that would be in a general way — the word of God — that is to convey the mind of God. The word of God conveys not only what He says, but His mind, and what He will say. His mind is in the thought of the word, what He may still say. Things were clearly said after the disclosures to Paul, even this book may have been written later, but the word of God was completed in Paul’s time. You can hardly say the Scriptures were completed, but the word of God was completed, as he says, “to complete the word of God”, Colossians 1: 25.

JP Would the verses in 2 Peter 3 enter into what you have in mind? “All these things then being to be dissolved, what ought ye to be in holy conversation and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God ... ?”.

JT That is what I would think. We know that Peter had the government of God in mind; his ministry was to the dispersion indeed, meaning that the judgment of God had already begun in that sense, among the Jews; and therefore the application of the judgment of God was more evident, because it immediately took effect in their case, as we have it already in the first epistle here, “Wrath has come upon them to the uttermost”. The government of God in the sense of wrath took effect in them very early, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Emperor Titus, and the Jews scattered. The judgment of God was already being executed, although in a general way the period of grace remains; the period of grace is, of course, the general character of the present dispensation, but then the position of the Jews remains, the Jewish problem which is so prominent today amongst the nations was there. It was there with God and with the apostles; they all had to do with it. And so Paul in closing the matter in Acts 28 refers to Isaiah 6, that the judgment of God is already in action as to them.

EEH ^[p. 250] Is there any correspondence between the second book of Psalms, where the remnant is cast out, and the truth that we have in mind?

JT The Jews were driven out, and they have in mind to return to Jerusalem, which they will do, but at the present time they are driven out. The Spirit of Christ in the Psalms is never unmindful of their position because they will all be saved; that is to say, all in the sense of the whole twelve tribes, as Paul says, “our whole twelve tribes”, Acts 26: 7. God thinks of them. He never lets them out of His mind, I would say, although He hides His face from the house of Jacob just now; at the same time He has them in mind and the Spirit of Christ never forgets them. It touches you because of what is current now, but still, it is the government of God, nevertheless. It is a very solemn thing that for the Jews the idea of wrath took effect long before it took effect in regard to the gentiles. The wrath of God coming on the gentiles is already current, you might say, but it was not at the first, whereas it was in regard to the Jews.

PL “How shall I give thee over, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee up, Israel? ... My heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God, and not man — the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not come in anger”. Hosea 11: 8, 9.

JT Very good. Showing how full the Scriptures are of the thought we are considering.

DJM Would you say a word on the feature of the armour in verse 8, the breastplate and the helmet?

JT It is an allusion to warfare. We have a clear allusion to it in Ephesians, but here it is mentioned in connection with other things, “Putting on ^[p. 251] the breastplate of faith and love, and as helmet the hope of salvation; because God has not set us for wrath”, and so forth. It is a provision for us as warriors in the defence of the truth, that we may not be overcome. The breastplate refers, I suppose, to practical righteousness, and the helmet refers to the truth; that is, the mental side of the position, the minds of the brethren being in use, because we have the mind of Christ, and it is to be used in the promulgation of the truth.

LPM Is the hope of salvation intended to fortify the mind in the conflict?

JT Just so.

AED Alongside this matter of the conflict, would you say why the thought of peace is given such a prominent place in this last chapter, and also in the last chapter of the second epistle. The word “Be in peace”, and then “the God of peace”, and later “the Lord of peace”, and “peace continually”.

JT I think you might say it is a principle with the Lord Himself as having come into this world, that peace should be indwelling us; and so in John 20 when He comes in after the message of Mary to His disciples. He says, “Peace be to you”. They rejoiced when they saw Him, and then He says it a second time, “Peace be to you”. In John 14 also we have “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled”. It would be, I suppose, the Lord’s provision, the attitude of His mind towards us in a troubled world, because we are in a troubled world, in every phase of it, and the Lord would garrison our hearts. “The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus”. It enters into these epistles, because it is so essential for the welfare of ^[p. 252] the saints.

PHH Would a man like Noah set that out? His name means ‘repose’, and yet he was living in the midst of such wicked conditions?

JT Very good. “This same shall comfort us”, said his father, “because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed”. That is, Noah would be a comfort to his father in respect of the troubles that arose from the incoming of sin, and on account of God’s judgment as regards it. Of course, it goes further than comfort, it is a question of Noah’s ministry, because we have to take account of these men that are signalised, as to what their ministry may have been, especially Noah and Enoch.

Ques Does Paul, too, express a similar spirit to the Ephesians, when he closes with “Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”?

JT Yes. How much you are conscious of the need of it! As has been already remarked as to the Lord, it seems to be a characteristic feature with Him, as to His relations with His people. And then there is the thought of “My peace”. It is not simply peace in a general way, but My peace, which is a very elevated thought.

JS Would “My peace I give unto you” mean that nothing less than that would keep us in His own thoughts during the time we are here, in things we are passing through or may have to pass through? He would have us in the comfort of that.

JT Just so. In that comfort.

WSS Reading a remark of Mr. Darby’s recently in regard to this passage in John 14, I notice he said, “My peace” flowed from the unclouded enjoyment of the Father’s love and favour, and He would give that to us.

HB Would that be illustrated in the Lord being asleep on a pillow amidst the conditions that were ^[p. 253] around?

JT It seemed as if He wondered at their waking Him up. Why should He be waked up?

JP-sn Is that set forth in Solomon, meaning ‘peaceful’? He is introduced in 2 Samuel 12; just his birth and his being named are recorded, and then antichrist typically comes in in Absalom, but later the reign of peace as found with Solomon is brought in.

JT Very good, and so we can understand the place that Solomon had in the mind of heaven; Jehovah sent by the hand of Nathan and called him “Jedidiah” because the Lord loved him. It was a most remarkable thing that Solomon had that place in spite of the subsequent history, but still it was a question of what he was as a type of Christ, as really like Christ in some degree.

JP-sn Is this to be enjoyed inwardly among the saints, while there is what marks antichrist in the world around, and tribulation for the saints outwardly, but peaceful conditions inwardly?

JT Conditions of peace among ourselves. Quite so, because we so readily fall out. It was said to Jacob’s sons, “See that ye fall not out by the way”. We so easily fall out with one another.

Ques Would you say a word about verses 12 and 13? I was thinking of the need that the ministry that the Lord may give should reach the saints and find them in suitable conditions to receive it. It has been an important issue in this country.

JT You have in mind that the brethren should “know those ^[p. 258] who labour among you, and take the lead among you in the Lord, and admonish you, and to regard them exceedingly in love on account of their work”.

Ques I was thinking of the conditions among the brethren that would provide an open door for the ministry, for “those ... who take the lead among you in the Lord”. Is it not essential that the brethren should discern where the Lord has placed the lead?

JT I think that is a good point to bring before us, especially in view of the many there are who are serving, that they might serve freely, that there might be, as it says, no muzzling of the ox that treads out the corn. Sometimes there are hints and suggestions as to certain ones being prominent, and why should not others be just as prominent or active, and of course it may be true; but those that are alluded to here are specifically mentioned: “know those who labour among you, and take the lead among you in the Lord”. Now they are not appointed to take the lead — there is no such thing. These persons that are alluded to here, are gifted, clearly. The saints are glad to have them apparently, but they are urged about it so that they should be more so. They take the lead, it is not a time of one-man ministry. God’s thought is to have twelve; He began with that. The Lord Jesus Himself began with that, He appointed twelve and He was very concerned about having them with Him; when the thought of the Lord’s supper was introduced, the twelve were there, as if He needed them to be there. He needed to have them there, so that the truth of the Lord’s supper might be guarded and yet be fully unfolded and have its full place in the service of God. They would be twelve trustworthy men that He could lay His hands on, so to speak, and so Matthew and Mark and Luke tell us that they were there, that the twelve were there, and that, I think, opens up a little what you have in mind as to the saints making way for those who are in the lead. It says, “We beg you, brethren, to know those who labour among you, and take the lead among you in the Lord”. Notice it is in the Lord. It is not of their own thought, of their own effort, it is in the ^[p. 255] Lord, but they do it, they take the lead. Well, why do they do it? I would say that they do it because they are able to do it. A man does what he is able to do; that is to show what God has effected in him, and therefore it is a question of what a man is, because it is sure to come out. I would say if the Spirit of God is ungrieved, what a man is, what God has made a man, is sure to come out, and we may as well make a way for that. So that in all that has been said, the assembly of the present time is not a one-man thing, it is a community; Acts 2 shows that it was a community, although the apostles were in the lead, and they were to be hearkened to; but they were a community and everything was there to promote confidence and mutual feeling. Therefore it is not a time of one-man ministry, but at the same time a man is what he is, that is what God has made him, and we may as well accept that.

Ques Is that the force, too, of the word ‘among’? Peter speaks of not lording it over your possessions.

JT Just so.

EB Does it appear that “Be in peace among yourselves”, would be the result of the recognition of those that the Lord has sovereignly capacitated to lead among us?

JT That is what is in mind, clearly.

PHH The term “man of God” is used in the two epistles to Timothy. In the first epistle Paul addresses Timothy, “But thou, O man of God, flee these things, and pursue righteousness” and so on, and then in the second epistle the Scriptures are divinely inspired “that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work”. Is it your thought that the term ‘man of God’ would be interwoven into this matter of those that are fitted for ministry, able to take the lead?

^[p. 256] JT The idea of a man of God is characteristic of the Bible, the whole Bible, but it has a peculiar place in those two epistles. The term is hardly used in the New Testament, whereas in the Old it is much used, especially in the second book of Kings, the book that treats so much of Elijah and Elisha. They were specially men that could be trusted as to the truth, and they are regarded as men of God. And perhaps something might be said as to Elijah; he was a mysterious sort of person, because he is sometimes represented in John the Baptist, and then he is alluded to in the last chapter of the last book in the Old Testament that he would turn the heart of the fathers to the children. In each and every case there is clearly a reference to what is trustworthy in ministry, men that are trustworthy in ministry. I would think that what you say is a matter that is to be taken to heart, as to whether we are trustworthy, whether in all that we do and in our travels, whether we are really clear in motive and trustworthy, only having in mind to serve the Lord’s people, and take care of the Lord’s interests. I believe that is what is in mind in the term, ‘man of God’.

AD Is that why Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit? He said “Thou hast asked a hard thing, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee”.

JT All that is very instructive as to a younger brother in relation to an older brother that came before him, or had been before him, whether he has respect for him. It is said of Elisha that he poured water on the hands of Elijah; that is to say, he carried forward the true thought of the man of God; he respected his predecessor. He was not waiting for his death; he was ready to make the most of him while he lived, and thank God that is what marks us now; there is a clear readiness to make the most of ^[p. 257] what there is to serve the saints. These verses set it out very fully, it says, “We beg you, brethren, to know those who labour among you, and take the lead among you in the Lord, and admonish you”. Perhaps there is a difficulty as to admonition, and the brethren are afraid to carry it through, because of the effect it may have on those they minister to, but then it is a question of courage and faithfulness. That was specially laid upon Joshua who came in after Moses; he was to be strong and very courageous; and so as to the word ‘admonish’; if a servant needs to admonish the brethren, why not bear it, because he is thinking of them and their good; he knows better, perhaps, as to the matter in question than they do. And so it goes on, “and to regard them exceedingly in love on account of their work”.

JE Would these two verses govern us largely in assembly giving, when those who labour in the Lord are before us, firstly the thought of who they are, and what they are, their labour, their courage and the value of their work. Are not all these thoughts intended to stimulate us in assembly giving?

JT Well, a brother has to be concerned, keenly concerned, lest he be governed by what he gets. The brethren are very liberal now, more liberal than they used to be. There are special collections for those who serve, and the amounts given are liberal. And it is a great matter to be careful that one makes it clear that he is not serving for what he gets, or what is given to him. So that each brother has to be on his guard not to take up the attitude of expecting, or looking for results in that sense, but content to go on, and God will gradually provide for what he needs.

Ques Would “in the Lord” in that sense become a governing phrase, both for the servant’s own outlook, and the saints as recognising him?

JT Quite so; labour among you, and take the lead “in the Lord”.

JE It is not a question of any ecclesiastical status that a brother might be given, but it is the virtue of his work and labour that counts.

JT That is the point that is made here. It is that the brethren know it. They know those who labour, it says; that is, How do you regard them? Here you have brethren coming from different parts of the world. Well, but it has to be challenged as to why they come so far, or whether they need to come so far. I am not saying they should not, only that these are questions that arise as to labourers, and how those who know them, and would be ministered to by them, regard them. We are therefore challenged as to whether it is “in the Lord”.

AED The pure motives of Paul in Acts 20 should enter into it from the servant’s point of view. “I have coveted the silver or gold or clothing of no one. Yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my wants”.

JT I think it is very encouraging to see that we have in these Pauline epistles so much to govern us. It is as if he were telling us all the time that he is thinking of us as the assembly, and thinking of what is suitable in us, as of the assembly. Hence all these hortative words, and the question is whether we are ready to accept exhortation.

DJM “Ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake”.

JT Quite so.

AGL You have said that leaders are not appointed. Is there a danger in a democratic country like this for the saints to prefer leaders according to their own liking.

JT Quite so.

RRT Verse 11 reads, “Wherefore encourage one another, and build up each one the other, even as also ye do”; that would represent general conditions among the brethren, and the word in verses 12 and 13 is added to further that. Those who labour and take the lead, and admonish, are in addition to the general encouragement.

JT It is all most instructive and encouraging, because they have already been recognised by the apostle as doing the thing. They are doing it, they are not lazy in it, and therefore the apostle is more at liberty to encourage them to keep on doing it.

Ques Is that why we have the phrase in Acts 15, “leading men among the brethren”? Not merely that they took on something specific, but they were that characteristically.

JT Quite so. I have often thought of that, leading men among the brethren, and they were recognised. Why were they leading? Well, because they were able to do it. The idea of a leader, or a king, is a man that is able. Whatever ability the Lord gives them, it is sure to make itself felt. So, that the brethren do well to pay attention to these exhortations as to those who labour among them.

WSS Would you say that it is important and a great preservative for us to recognise those whom the Lord is employing at any time?

JT Yes, because they are so needed, and we have the thought of the Lord thrusting forth labourers into His harvest. They are so needed and hence they should be encouraged.

AD Would you say that we see that in Peter and John when they went up to the temple to pray at the ninth hour? Peter said “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee”.

JT Quite so. They had something, that characterises labourers. If they have not something, they will not be thought of. They must have something, and it is well for the brethren to take notice of what ^[p. 260] a man has. A man is accepted according to what he has, whatever it is.

Ques Is not the value of this character of meeting not only the truth as it is ministered, but the personal contact it affords to those who are serving?

JT Just so. The brethren who are here from different parts meet one another and exchange thoughts together, and what is best comes out because the Spirit of God is with us. That is the great thing to be in mind, that we have the Spirit of God with us.

JE And is it specially important for those who serve to keep the assembly steadily in mind? Whatever distinctive gift may be given, is given in relation to the assembly.

JT The labourer is in it also. If he is a labourer in a true sense he is in it; he is part of the assembly. So that presently he will have to give up the idea of gift, because it will not carry him through eternally. It is a question of what he is, as formed of God in the assembly.

Now as regards the second epistle, there was a thought of seeing how judgment comes into it, but on the other hand how the apostle carries forward his thoughts of affection for them, as it says, “Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus to the assembly of Thessalonians”, which again might be noted; it is not simply the assembly in Thessalonica, but the assembly of Thessalonians; that is to say, persons who belong to that town, and hence have some distinctive features which, may be, have to be overcome. So it says “to the assembly of Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you, and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”. The full titles of the Lord are striking. Then we were thinking of the way that judgment comes into the passage. It says here, “Because ^[p. 261] your faith increases exceedingly, and the love of each one of you all towards one another abounds; so that we ourselves make our boast in you in the assemblies of God for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations, which ye are sustaining”; that shows that they were going through things. Although they were lovable to heaven, they were not lovable to men, and they were suffering from them. Then it goes on to say, “a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that ye should be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for the sake of which ye also suffer; if at least it is a righteous thing with God to render tribulation to those that trouble you, and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, when he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all that have believed, (for our testimony to you has been believed,) in that day”. I thought that before closing, we might have this word in our minds which will lead on to the second chapter, only that this is a question of the saints, and what is actually occurring, and how it works out in the judgment of God. It is in view of the fact that men have not received the truth, that they have not obeyed the glad tidings, that the judgment is coming. The book of Revelation does not disclose fully the thought of judgment on the East; it is more a question of what is coming on those who profess the truth, and it is terrible to have it brought forward in this way, because it is linked with the position of the saints in the future. “You that are troubled repose with us”; they and the apostles will be in repose when these awful judgments will be executed.

Ques Does it seem that repose from that point of view is not forthcoming until that time?

JT That is what I think. It is a question of God’s righteous judgment as applied to their circumstances then, because His righteous judgment will be poured out on those who trouble them, showing that God is thinking of the persecutions that we are enduring, whatever they may be.

Rem The Thessalonians had not lost their lovableness in the midst of persecution and shame and despising. I am referring to the first verse. He speaks to them in the same way and terms as in chapter 1 of the first epistle, as if that remained an abiding position with them in spite of all that had intervened. Would that be right?

JT Quite so. And then Paul brings out their association with the labourers — “us”. Whatever they come into the Thessalonians come into. “Repose with us”, he says.

HJM Does the book of Revelation show that all God’s movements in judgment are to produce witnessing and praising companies, and that has its present reflexive fruits in the assembly?

JT So that the actual sufferings we are enduring — whatever they may be, not many now, we might say in a general way, but there are some — God is taking notice of them, and they will all come into the matter of these terrible judgments that are announced here, because it is a question of those who have not obeyed the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ques Would it leave us with the impression that the way to get through is to adopt a suffering spirit in the acceptance of the matter until the Lord alleviates ^[p. 263] it?

JT I am sure that is right, to take on a suffering spirit, because it is there, and we are not ignored; heaven is taking account of what is happening.

CAI I was thinking of Peter’s word as to Christ having suffered in the flesh; it says “arm yourselves with the same mind”.

JT Quite so.