THE LORD AS HAVING A HOUSEHOLD
[p. 401] THE LORD AS HAVING A HOUSEHOLD
Isaiah 8: 18 - 20; John 13: 33 - 35; John 21: 5, 6
JT What is in mind is that the Lord Jesus has a household, which He regards as His own, and hence these scriptures speak of His children. They are to be viewed relatively, not in the sense of His being a father, as God is, but as given children Himself, and hence having a household. And so these scriptures in the New Testament show how He regarded the disciples, involving tender affections, parental affections, but tender and gracious. So that the thought will bring out the link between the Old Testament and the New in this sense, that Christ being the Messiah was regarded as having a house, and hence the passover became introductory to the Lord’s supper, involving all the government of a house. This should have a special reference to young people, and to parental feeling in older ones so that the young are cared for in view of the Lord’s supper and the service of God working out in it.
Ques Is it that conditions have been set up in which this peculiar affection can be expressed continually?
JT Well, I had thought of that. There is much inquiry as to children, and how the question of age enters into their participation in the things of God. It works out in protection, and also in the advantage that they have as being the children of believing parents. It is said that the children are holy.
HH In the previous chapter it says “the virgin shall conceive”, then we get the thought here as you say, then in the next chapter, “Unto us a child is born”. All that comes into the thought of the children, does it not?
JT Quite so, in Isaiah 7: 16 the age of the child, too, is mentioned; the age of one of the [p. 402] children alluded to is mentioned as marking off something.
HH That is very typical of these days, is it not? That section in Isaiah refers to what would be true of the conditions of the last days, and then the coming in of Christ?
JT Quite. To bring out the place the children have.
LPM Does verse 4 of chapter 8 also enter into that; “Before the lad knoweth to cry, My father! And, My mother!”?
JT Well, I was thinking of the first part so as to proceed in order, as to what was referred to in chapter 7; it says, “And Jehovah spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask for thee a sign from Jehovah thy God; ask for it in the deep, or in the height above. And Ahaz said, I will not ask, and will not tempt Jehovah. And he said, Hear then, house of David, Is it a small matter for you to weary men, that ye weary also my God? Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign, Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel” (which we all know means ‘God with us’). “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good. For before the child knoweth to refuse the evil and to choose the good, the land whose two kings thou fearest shall be forsaken. Jehovah will bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father’s house, days which have not come since the day when Ephraim turned away from Judah ...” (verses 10 - 17). Now you referred to another scripture.
JT So as to get the full bearing of the text, the chapter begins, “And Jehovah said to me, Take thee a great tablet, and write thereon with a man’s style, concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz. And I took unto me to witness, sure witnesses”. And then it says in the end of verse 3, “Call his name, Maher-shalal-hash-baz. For before the lad knoweth to cry, My father! And, My mother! the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria”. And then we have this reference already made in verse 18, “Behold, ... the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel”. Then there is reference to another child in verse 3 of chapter 7, which reads, “And Jehovah said to Isaiah, Go out now to meet Ahaz, thou and thy son Shear-jashub, at the end of the aqueduct of the upper pool, on the highway of the fuller’s field”. Now, that word “Shear-jashub” means, ‘a remnant shall return’, so that all these children are signs and full of instruction, but especially now in view of the Lord’s supper coming in in this prophetic part, the passover leading up to the Lord’s supper.
AJG Have you in mind that the passover was to be celebrated in households, and that it becomes the moral preparation for the Supper?
JT That is just the point that I had in mind, because the passover was introduced in Exodus 12, and it was to be the beginning of months, the first of the year for Israel. So that it is a significant thing and opens up wide avenues of instruction, and particularly because it makes way for children; and then the Lord’s own part in it in the sense of government, for He is the Son over the house of God.
ECT Does verse 18 suggest that there are to be good conditions prevailing — signs and wonders in Israel?
JT Yes. And then another thing, in chapter 9 the Lord is said to be “Father of Eternity”, meaning the ‘Father of the age’.
RHG Would you say a little more as to what you have in mind as to the age of children in these matters?
[p. 404] JT The reference to it is striking, because it is alluded to several times here, and the age of one at least is in mind, and sometimes the question arises as to the age of children, whatever it may be, and whether the Lord’s own age would be a guide, for He was a Child. Luke, of course, presents Him as a Babe. He is alluded to in His very earliest moments; but Matthew treats of Him as older; that is to say, He is under the care of Joseph, but Joseph is to take His mother, “the little child and his mother”; and then in Luke His age is given as twelve, when He asserts His responsibility, so to speak, to do His Father’s business. Mary, His mother, said that she and His father (meaning Joseph) had searched for Him, and He said, “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?”, meaning that God was His Father. He was asserting Himself in that sense at the age of twelve, and whether that may not guide somewhat as to children’s place in the service at the Lord’s supper, and leading up to having part in the service of God.
CAI Would the fact that “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good”, indicate that there was moral discernment in the children?
JT Well, it is to be noted that it is not the same child as Immanuel. This child is meant, I think, meaning that it was the child immediately before the prophet.
AJG Do you mean it refers to Shear-jashub?
JT Yes.
AJG Do you think that these two children. Shear-jashub and the other one, one meaning ‘a remnant shall return’ and the other referring to the quickly-coming judgment, are intended to suggest what may take shape in the children of the saints now, the evidence of a remnant going on with [p. 405] the truth, and bearing testimony to what is about to come?
JT Very good. Going on with the truth. They are to be brought up with a sense that they have something to go on with, in a sense of responsibility, and that they should take it on early, as early as possible. Their parents should have that in mind, to bring them up with that thought, that there is something of God to be taken care of. And so the Lord says, “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?”. There is something to be taken care of, and they should have part in it.
ET Would John 16: 21 bear upon that, when the Lord is about to leave His own? He refers to them as having sorrow as a woman “because her hour has come; but when the child is born, she no longer remembers the trouble, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world”.
JT Very good. One has often thought of that. It is not a child, but a man, meaning one to take on things, reverting back, really to Adam. The man is born into the world, he is potentially a man if he is a man-child; and, of course, that runs right through Scripture, as, for instance, in Revelation 12: 5, where the word is “male son”, which is very remarkable. He is referred to as caught up to God, as if God took Him out of the way so that the devil could not attack; but He is still there and in due course will come in and take His part in everything. The book of Revelation, of course, opens up all these things.
GHH Would John have in mind what you say in writing to the elect lady? “I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth”, 2 John 4.
JT Just so. The elect lady; a very remarkable designation in the scriptures, that a woman should be called an elect lady, but then an elect lady and [p. 406] her children. While she was a lady she was a woman, and she had children, and her children walked in truth. So that again bears on what we were saying as to the children coming into truth. Peter refers to someone in Babylon, that she greeted others. Some think that it was his wife, but it might be an assembly in Babylon. And if there were one, possibly there was, it would be all the more significant.
AD Would the man in John 9 help us in this matter? His parents say “He is of age, ask him”.
JT Very good. That is they asserted that he was of age, and therefore responsible to answer for himself, which is a great matter too for children, to know what to say in answer to any question raised, because questions are raised with children. But then he was a grown up man.
LPM Is it your thought that the Lord’s supper is a family matter?
JT That is just the thought. The same idea extended back to the Old Testament, and now it is worked out in the New.
CCC Do you think the occasion in Luke 24: 30 would bear on it? The Lord taking the house-father’s place.
JT The house-father is the word there, meaning that the Lord took the place of the head of the house in giving thanks for the food, in giving thanks for what was on the table. A remarkable time as entering into the Lord’s supper, because it was at that time that He vanished out of their sight, and they made their way to Jerusalem; showing the effect of the occasion was to gather, to bring the saints together, so they were able to contribute to what was current in Jerusalem.
AGL So that as the passover is introduced in Exodus 12, it is contemplated that the children will ask, “What mean ye by this service?”. Do we look for that inquiry amongst our children?
JT I am sure we do.
Ques This thought seems to run right up to the idea of the Lord’s coming to us. I was thinking of John 14: “I will not leave you orphans”; is there a paternal suggestion there?
JT That is very helpful. “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. Showing that the Lord was mindful, according to what He said elsewhere, “as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings”. The youth are brought under the Lord’s wing; and, of course, much is made out of that passage in John 14, because it begins with the incoming of the Spirit, and that He would come to remain with them for ever.
PHH Do I gather from your remarks that the Lord Jesus in the character of house-father would in some way enter into the Lord’s supper?
JT Well, that is what we have been saying, because when He inaugurated it, according to some of the records, they were eating; “as they were eating”, Matthew 26: 26. The allusion is to a father with his children.
PHH That would open up a wide range of thought as to the way that we could address the Lord, or at least the thoughts that we would have in our minds in relation to His coming in, and His touch upon us at the Supper?
JT “As they were eating” would indicate that the idea of eating was there. It belongs to a family, and these allusions that we have made, and these passages, all bear on that. It is a question of a family, and the ages of the children. And then the Lord Himself coming into all that in Matthew, and in Luke, and how He was cared for, especially in Matthew, in view of the assembly. “Take to thee the little child and his mother”, meaning that the [p. 408] mother at that time was the vessel chosen to take care of Him. So it says Joseph was to take them and flee into Egypt, and then He was to be there; hence the word in the prophet, “Out of Egypt have I called my son”. So parents can see that the Lord is placing within our range advantages as to our children, and nothing less than His own Supper, the Lord’s supper, that they are to have part in it.
Ques Would the discipline and admonition of the Lord, in which the children are to be brought up, have their place at the Supper in view?
JT I would think that, and especially as it is in Ephesians that we get that expression. It is for the fathers to look after them. “And ye fathers ... bring them up in the discipline and admonition of the Lord”.
LPM In the scripture in Isaiah it says, “Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel, from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion”. In what way does this reference to Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion, enter into the matter that you are now speaking of?
JT I suppose that mount Zion is an allusion, constantly found in the Old Testament, to the sovereign selection of God for Himself. And undoubtedly the application to children is striking, because it is in the children He makes His selection. And therefore in Matthew the Lord says that “their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven”, Matthew 18: 10.
GA You have referred on three occasions to the Lord’s own words to His parents. “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?”. Do you think it would imply that from twelve years of age and onwards, God would wish to give to our children some apprehension [p. 409] of sonship?
JT Well, something that would lead up to that. Of course, in using a thing like that it has to be somewhat fluid in our minds. It is not a question of literality as to the exact age of twelve, but to give an idea, indicated in the Lord Himself, as to when they should be taught to accept responsibility.
GA One asked the question in view of the great feature of divine compression in the holy life of the Lord Jesus, thirty-three and a half years; in the antediluvian economy they lived for nearly a thousand years, did they not? Yet God would express everything in thirty-three and a half years.
JT What an age! What a life! What a Child! So His forerunner, that is, John the baptist, is also made to serve in this same sense. In Luke he responds, even when unborn, to the voice of Mary. A very remarkable thing, showing what God can do in children, and what tenderness there should be and holiness, because it is said, “else were your children unclean; but now are they holy”, 1 Corinthians 7: 14. That is, compared with the children of unconverted people, converted people’s children are holy, relatively holy. They are not so literally. The Lord was literally holy; “That holy thing”, it is said. A remarkable statement too, He was personally holy, intrinsically holy; not simply relatively, but really so. Therefore we think of Him reverentially in that sense, and as comparing our own children, think of them too with some thought of holiness, because God has ordered that for them. The parents have that advantage, and the children have that advantage that they are regarded as holy.
AM As to the family side of things, does the reference in Luke 8 to the man, and the woman, and finally to the child. Jairus’ daughter, aged twelve, raised to life, all bear on this thing working out practically in localities?
JT Quite so, there [p. 410] it is.
RRT With regard to Samuel, it is said, “And Samuel ministered before Jehovah, a boy girded with a linen ephod”. Would that illustrate what we are having, a boy growing into this thing in the house of God in relation to service?
JT It is very appropriate to bring that up, because in fact he was in the house. An extraordinary circumstance, of course, was that seemingly the house of God was somewhat reduced in the esteem of those that were responsible then; but still Samuel was laid there, as set there. And his mother brought him a little coat every year, showing that the growth of the child was in mind, and therefore it is most appropriate to bring his name in now.
WHF Does Paul refer to that in 1 Timothy 5, where he honours the widows who had brought up children; not simply had had children, but had brought them up?
JT Brought them up, very good. And the one who is especially mentioned is not to be less than sixty years, showing how age enters into all these matters.
Ques Would it seem that the mother has a special part in this matter? I was thinking of your reference to John the baptist; the movements of the unborn child really came about through the ears of Elizabeth as she heard the salutation of Mary.
JT Wonderful. It is really a striking illustration of God’s power, even in a creative sense, in the creation of man. But it is not merely as being created, but as being born, a person being born. The idea of birth is really more important than creation in that sense.
PHH Alongside of that there is the reference, in the last piece of ministry in the Old Testament, to the turning of the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. Does that mean that happy and mutual relations between [p. 411] old and young are to characterise the houses of the saints in view of the children coming into the assembly?
JT Quite so. And that brings up the idea of a ministry, and Elijah is the man in question, reminding us of the importance of ministries, and how a man may be addicted in a peculiar way to the service of children. And so the Lord was not behind in that Himself. He says: “Suffer the little children to come to me; forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God”, Mark 10: 14.
PL And His vindication of the children who cried “Hosanna to the son of David”, in the temple. “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise”, Matthew 21: 15, 16.
JT Very good. That should appeal to every mother’s heart, and every father’s heart.
LPM So that you would allow scope for service in a special way to children if the Lord directed a servant in that way. Is that what you had in mind as to the end of Malachi?
JT I am not so sure of people addicting themselves to children’s education, because the parents ought to look after the children’s education; the parents ought to be the immediate vessels of looking after their education. I doubt very much the wisdom of little children being separated and given over to others to educate them. I think the mothers and the fathers ought to do it. It says “Ye fathers ... bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord”. It is an authoritative allusion.
LPM I had more the thought of ministry bearing in the direction of the children.
JT Well, quite. I am not sure about children’s books and the like, picture books. I am not saying that our brother is alluding to that, but I think the children ought to be brought up on the highest level possible, that they might be taught to learn things [p. 412] about God, and about Christ, and about the Spirit, and even about the assembly; and they do too — they are ready to take in those things.
JP Would the law and the testimony have its place in that connection, the children would be made conversant, as far as they are able to understand, at an early age?
JT That is just what is brought in here. “To the law and the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, for them there is no daybreak”. So that the testimony is brought in here, and, in regard of the children, we are to bring them up in view of the testimony. Someone had alluded to a remnant, a continuation of the service of God, and the elder brethren being taken away, the Lord taking them away one after another, and of course, we elder people are very sobered about that, but then the children have to be thought of. “One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh”, Ecclesiastes 1: 4. That other one, the coming one, is the one we are dealing with now.
DJM I wondered if Eutychus would come in there. It says, “They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted”.
JT Very good; but the boy had been in a dangerous place first, at the window-opening. There was need of care on the part of somebody.
Rem Referring to Elijah again, he was sent to a widow’s house where there was no fatherhood, but he supplied it. He stretched himself upon the child three times and then he said, “My God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again!”. Is that the fatherhood that you have in mind?
JT That is an incident I have often thought of, and you have, too, I am sure. And another thing is how, in Elisha’s day, a child had to be raised up, and he was raised up; there was a father in that case. The child died on account of some condition [p. 413] in his head, and Elisha walked up and down through the house; there had been a place for him suggested by the mother of the child, and he walked up and down through the house, as if he were looking round for books or the like, or pictures, or anything that might defile the child. I was just transferring your thought to Elisha, because in a way Elijah and Elisha are one piece, and in Elisha’s case also the child died. He was given according to promise, but he died, and the woman sent for Elisha who was at mount Carmel, and his servant with him, and she insisted that he must come. He first sent his servant with his staff, as if his experience might raise him, but it did not; experience in itself will not do, there must be personal intervention. And so the servant took the staff and laid it on the child, but there was no result, there was no life. And then he went himself, and he lay upon the child, just as you said about Elijah, and there was no result, and he walked about the house, as if he did not know what it was, but there might be something hidden that might have caused the death of the child. And I believe that that is often the case, that things are hidden and secreted and children are damaged by them.
Ques Would what Elisha did bear very much on the meeting for ministry? I was thinking of Elijah as setting out fatherhood, but the activity of Elisha is more prophetic ministry, would you say, which would always bring in a challenge to anything that would cause us to lose our children?
JT Quite so.
GA Would you say something at this juncture too, as to the woman who was faced with the creditor in the same surroundings? The creditor was come, and she feared the loss of her sons. Does that have any bearing on our exercise in relation to our [p. 414] sons?
JT So she is to shut the door on herself and her sons. Her husband had died. She is to shut the door on herself and her sons, and then what had she in the house? Well, she had something; it was very little in her account, but it was something. There was a little oil in the house, and Elisha enjoined her to shut herself in with her sons, and then get vessels and pour out the oil. And she did so, and the oil filled all the vessels, and she asked for another vessel, and the answer was, “There is not a vessel more”. But then there was enough there to pay her debt. She asserted that she was in debt, and that the creditor had come. He says, “Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy sons on the rest”. That is to say, the great lesson is to live by the Spirit, and that we discharge our indebtedness; the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We discharge our indebtedness, we liquidate it, and then we have means of living. That is another feature of the subject. And, of course, it bears on what we have said as to the children getting the Spirit.
AD “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him”, Proverbs 22: 15. Would that be in line?
JT The rod of correction would be the father’s part more particularly. And so, transferring the thought fully, Timotheus was sent to Corinth to instruct the Corinthians; the apostle addresses them as children, and Timotheus was sent to instruct them, which he did. But then the apostle later asks them whether he should come with a rod. He sent Timotheus instead of a rod; he was a young brother with tender affections, I would say.
HHS Have you in mind that the children, as brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, are steeped in such thoughts in the home, and they learn that the Lord has a house of His own in [p. 415] which they are to be free, and into which He calls His own children as in John 13?
JT That is good, and it gives one an opening to speak about these points, as to the Lord having a house of His own, which He has. And we have the two passages read in John 13 and John 21. In both the term that is used is “Children”. The first refers to love among the brethren. “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”. It is not simply each one having love, but love as in quantity where the children are, or may be; that they are brought up in that atmosphere. And in chapter 21, they were, you might say, naughty children, because Peter says “I go to fish”, and the others say “We also come with thee”, and they went off and they did not get any fish; but the Lord did not give any reproof, no formal reproof. He just dealt with them in a fatherly way with a view, in due time, to correcting them, but they were brought round. He said “Have ye anything to eat?”, and they said, “No”. They had to admit that the whole expedition was a failure. But then the Lord said, “Cast the net at the right side of the ship and ye will find”, which, I think, is a reminder to us of the need of the element of grace; and in due time the opportunity will come for correction. But at first there was no reproof.
ACSP Would Paul’s reference in Colossians to not vexing your children and in Ephesians to not provoking them to anger bear on what you are saying?
JT Quite so. Ephesians on the higher level, I would think; and so as to wives, for it is all bearing on the same thing.
AM Do the disciples get an early impression as to this in John 1, where the two disciples followed Jesus, and He says to them, “What seek ye? And they said to him, Rabbi, ... where abidest thou?
[p. 416] He says to them, Come and see, ... and they abode with him”. Do you think that would bear on early impressions that they would receive as to knowing the Lord in this way?
JT Yes, and the minister too. The minister, that is John the baptist, so to say, preached his followers away from himself to Christ. He was affected by the walk of Jesus. He looked upon Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold the Lamb of God”. The two disciples heard him speaking, and they followed Jesus. I suppose that these disciples may be regarded as young; they were young anyway in a spiritual sense, and they called the Lord “Teacher”, and said “Where abidest thou?”. And He says, “Come and see”, which is a very tender way of dealing with young people. That is to say, it is not simply what I say, but what you may see in Me, or around Me. It is a question of the circumstances in which the Lord is to be found; and it is a very tender thought that the children are invited by the Lord to come and see.
PHH In chapter 13, just before the Lord uses the word “Children”. He gives them great impressions of glory. “Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him”, and so on. Would that be to fortify children, the saints in that way, in the position of the testimony, by giving them a sense of the great glory of divine Persons? Would you mind saying a little about those glories, because they come immediately before the Lord says, “Children, yet a little while I am with you”? Is this the inside position, John being in the bosom of Jesus, and therefore love and restfulness making for the expression of these great things, and moral glories attaching to the Lord, even as He goes into death; and then actual glory as He is contemplated in heaven; and then in addition to that, glory in the [p. 417] assembly?
JT Quite so. I am just thinking for a moment of the chapter; what a chapter it is! It is somewhat corresponding to Acts 20, which is a love chapter, and it looks to me as if John 13 is similar. It begins thus. “Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end”. A beautiful suggestion for young people, having loved His own, He loved them to the end. And then the supper is spoken of, and then the feet-washing. It says in verse 3, “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came out from God and was going to God, rises from supper and lays aside his garments, and having taken a linen towel he girded himself, then he pours water into the wash-hand basin, and began to wash the feet of the disciples, and to wipe them with the linen towel with which he was girded”. Well now, this is well known, of course; it has always been well known to the brethren, but the tenderness of it perhaps has not been so much touched; I mean the applicability of it to young people. The tenderness of the Lord Himself — in pouring the water out into a wash-hand basin, and then washing the feet of the disciples, and then using a linen towel, because linen is absorbent; there is a tenderness in it to relieve the discomfort of washing, so that the person is set at ease. I believe all these things are very touching in this chapter, and then all that you say as to the glories of the chapter. We considered yesterday as to how many glories there are; we read of “from glory to glory”. John certainly furnishes us with glory and glories, and this glory of the feet-washing is one of the most touching, because the children, the young people, need the washing, and the Lord explains that one who is washed does not need to wash save his feet, because he is clean every whit; that is to say, that the word of God effects that,
[p. 418] but then there is the detail, the need of washing for persons who are youthful and in contact with the earth. The feet get contaminated, and there is constant need of washing, and the washing is by the word, the ministry.
AD Would Hebrews 10: 22, come in? “Let us draw near ... having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water”.
JT Just so.
Ques Connecting the passage in John 13, the Lord having a house at the present time, with the next chapter which speaks of the Father’s house, and then “I go to prepare a place for you”, do we get touches in the Lord coming to us now, of what we will enter into in the future when the Lord comes for us?
JT Quite so, the Father’s house, of course, is the full thought. It is no question of youthful persons or juvenile persons, it is the full thought of God. The Lord rises to that in chapter 14, “Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe on God, believe also on me. In my Father’s house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you, for I go to prepare you a place”. Now He is rising to the full thought of the family of God. But it is quite in order that this question of children should be brought up too, leading up to that.
RRT In regard to what we have been saying, would it be a right thought with us to have children according to the high level of things as we have been speaking of it? I was thinking of Abraham, who said “What wilt thou give me? seeing I go childless”. Here it is “The children that Jehovah hath given me”. Would it be a spiritual thought with us to have children according to this high level of things?
JT Well, clearly. It ought to be the thought of parents to have children, and the Lord taking them on according to what we have been saying, the parents themselves nurturing them in the nurture [p. 419] and admonition of the Lord. But we must come to the divine thought, it would be a mischief to keep people down; let the thought of manhood be in mind always. That is what has already been alluded to, as to the gospel of John; the Lord says “for joy that a man is born into the world”, John 16: 21. That is, a man is the full idea. The ark had no children in it, and that is the idea of the divine abode eternally, that developed people are there, persons that have intelligent affections; although as we have remarked already, “their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven”, which is very beautiful; but at the same time what is in mind is the full grown man.
RS Would Psalm 127 bear on that, “Children are an inheritance from Jehovah”?
JT Just so. Well, now we are going back to the juvenile class, so to speak, whereas the divine thought is to lead up to the fathers. So whilst John’s letters are written to fathers, and young men, and children, yet the fathers are the highest thought, and it is clear that the fathers are in mind. So that what we are dealing with now ought to lead us to the fathers, the full thought of God; and the full thought is “my Father’s house”. There are many abodes there, which probably alludes to the families that God will have, but the Lord says, “I go to prepare you a place”, meaning that the saints of this dispensation have the first place, and I believe the same thing is true in Matthew. “Two of you” is a question of the part that we have in the assembly; in the assembly, down here; in the Father’s house, up there.
GA As your last scripture bears so directly on current exercises, one wonders if you would be free to say a little more to us as to that, for we feel the urgent need of help and instruction in that matter which your last scripture bears on? In John 21,
following Peter’s word, “I go to fish”, they say, “We also come with thee”. And then your scripture, “Jesus therefore says to them, Children, have ye anything to eat? They answered him, No”, and so on.
JT It is to bring out the grace side. John has the grace side in mind; he begins with grace and truth, “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”. And so the Spirit of God says, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth”. Grace and truth! John 21 contemplates that grace is to prevail, because the Lord does not rebuke the naughty attitude of Peter and the others in going to fish; He does not rebuke it. But He does things that lead up to a full rebuke; Peter is left in the position of becoming a martyr according to the divine thought, and John is left here to carry out the behests of grace during the dispensation.
LPM There is an interesting footnote in the New Translation to the word “children” here that might serve. The footnote is ‘paidion’, the diminutive; it expresses peculiar affection.
JT The different words that John uses as to children are striking in that sense.
AJG Is it significant that when they come to land they see a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread; is all that suggestive of the Lord’s house that you were speaking of?
JT Very good. What a touch! And there the word that He uses as to the meal is dine, which shows that it is not merely something to eat, but it is a dinner; and the Lord Himself clearly has prepared it. The things are found there, and then He associates them with it saying, “Bring of the fishes which ye have now taken”, as if they had done it. There is a certain distinction granted to them, that they had [p. 421] caught the fish, and there were a large number, a hundred and fifty-three great fishes. The Lord gives them credit for that, showing that it is a question of grace in the last chapter of John. Indirectly it is a testimony to the spirit of John’s ministry; it runs right through the dispensation.
PHH Does the net draw attention to the assembly?
JT I suppose so. The net did not break, so there is no fear, even as we read in Matthew, “hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. The net does not break, so that the catch is secure. So that we have in John 11: 52, “That he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad”. That is the ministry that is to characterise us, to gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad.
PHH I wondered whether it was remarkable that the net was there, and this adjusting word of the Lord, “Cast the net at the right side of the ship”. The children in that way were immediately amenable to adjustment.
JT Very good, and so the last chapter leads to completion in what we are saying as to the ministry. Peter is the martyr, and that is what is needed at the present time, martyrdom. The Lord says, “When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not”. Meaning that he would be carried to death for the Lord. He had asserted that he would die for the Lord, and the Lord says, so to speak, You will be allowed to do it; you shall have the opportunity of doing it. But then on the other hand Peter says, “What shall this man do?”. The Lord said, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”.
[p. 422] That is to say, we have John, as it were, running down the dispensation, the spirit of life.
CFI Is it your thought that this scripture in John 21 bears on the question of the food supply amongst the brethren? “Have ye anything to eat?”
JT Quite so. Another thing comes up in Matthew to support that: “Blessed is that bondman whom his lord on coming shall find doing thus”. And that ‘doing thus’ refers to food in the household, the Lord’s household.
CFI Would it be a word as to the headship of Christ? “Cast the net at the right side of the ship and ye will find”, the direction that is available there.
JT Very good. It is a question of knowing how; in Luke the net broke, but not in John.
FW Would this ministry be calculated to prepare us for anything that might happen?
JT Very good, anything that might happen. And, of course, many things have happened.
WHW I was wondering if this word, “Children, have ye anything to eat?”, might come as a test to any of us at any time, but where it is honestly answered to as they did here, help is given.
JT Help is given, exactly. The Lord was there to do what was needed; to light the fire, and to make the meal, and to do anything else; to provide the food by direction, by order to Peter, and all the chapter runs down on those lines. It is a grace chapter, and we may rely upon it through all the vicissitudes of the assembly’s history. At the same time, there is nothing omitted that is not cared for, and if severity is necessary it has to be used.
JS It is a great comfort to us to know that whatever happens the net cannot break.
JT Whatever happens; and how many things are happening, and we need the Lord nearby. The word is, “The Lord is near”. He is near to help.
[p. 423] Ques Is all this care of the Lord in view of having us free and available for the Supper?
JT That was in mind at first, but we have travelled pretty well, I think. I think we have reached a good end, and it bears on the Lord’s supper. We specially stressed the youthful elements that are coming in, and ought to come in, and specially the age that would govern the whole matter, the different ages. Age has a great deal to do with all this. And so we read about those different children in the prophets, each of which has significance, and it is for us to be instructed.
AGL Would you say a word about Isaiah 8: 18, being quoted in Hebrews 2, “Behold, I and the children which God has given me”, after referring to His brethren?
JT There are several quotations in the chapter, leading up to family conditions, and the Father and the Son are eventually in mind, that is to say, the Father is to be praised, to be worshipped, as we might say; and then the Son active in that service. So the assembly is the great field in which the service is carried on, but the Son is the One who does it. The Lord is the One who sings in the midst of the assembly. Therefore we come back to the assembly again.