ABILITY TO TAKE ON CHANGE
[p. 378] ABILITY TO TAKE ON CHANGE
Revelation 1: 9 - 20; Revelation 22: 16, 17
JT These scriptures will help us as conversing with one another, as to the capability to change in the Lord Himself, and in the saints too, in view of certain services. So that in John’s case he says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, and then certain things happened. In verse 9 he is just the servant, John, in his ordinary condition, but he became something else; that is, he became in the Spirit. Then in verse 10 John says, “I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet, saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies”, and the names are given, and then John says, “I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps”, and in the midst of these things the Lord is seen in certain judicial garb which He took on for a judicial purpose. And then in verse 17 it says of John, “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not”. That is, the Lord is now returning, we might say, to Himself, speaking reverently; that is, He is now with John and dealing with John, and so He becomes Himself as with a loved one, with one whom He would regard in love, and care for. So He says in verse 17, “Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one, and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades. Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these”. So that the Lord is now with John on personal terms but in view of helping him in his service; so He tells him what he is to do, and the order in which he is to write. Thus the matter stands, and the whole book comes in in the meantime, a book which is in the main a symbolical [p. 379] book, containing symbolical thoughts and revelations, and then all being over, at the end of the book the Lord returns to Himself, as it were, addressing the assemblies, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come, he that will, let him take the water of life freely”, Revelation 22: 16, 17. So that we are now back to the Lord Himself, not in view of a further revelation, but in the light of what had been made known, that is, Himself, as with His own, speaking to them in the most familiar terms, and yet retaining His dignity, and we may say, His deity. So I thought, having mentioned all this, that the Lord would help us to see how it works out on the first day of the [p. 385] week, and whether we are ready for the changes that are necessary, and how we apprehend the Lord in His services coming into our midst and opening up to us the great divine thoughts which belong to the service of God on the first day of the week. So that we have the Lord Himself in freedom to present Himself as “I Jesus”, and on the other hand, John, as is seen very much throughout the book, is also personal in addressing the saints, “I John”; so that personality enters into all this matter of change in view of the service of God. One thought that perhaps the service that we often speak of, and we speak a great deal of the service of God and the Lord’s supper, should become more intelligible to us, old and young, and then all that flows out of it, too, in the sense of public testimony.
Ques You have in mind, I judge, that there should be a quick response with us as apprehending the changing phases from glory to glory?
JT Well, I think that it is good to use the word ‘quick’, because we are very apt to be slothful in taking [p. 380] on the change that is suitable; whereas, as we think of Zion, to refer to an Old Testament expression coming into the New, as soon as we leave our houses in view of the assembly, everything changes; that is to say, Zion involves a change. It is not our houses, it is God’s realm where He operates in view of His own thoughts, and having a certain sphere in mind which is His own; it is constantly used in the Old Testament, and used in the most striking terms. So that it is a question of whether we are accustomed to change over, leaving our ordinary affairs and entering on the service of God on the first day of the week, or any other day too that may be used in the same sense; to change over and lay aside for the moment at least what is normal, for the change that is due to God in His realm, the assembly, or Zion.
PL Would the reference in the Canticles to the gazelle or hart, in connection with the bridegroom and the bride, bear on the rapidity and agility of the change?
JT Just so. We have to watch carefully the words used in that book, because it refers to Solomon, typical of Christ, of course, but Christ taking on certain attitudes, and then the feminine speaker taking on corresponding attitudes; so that their communications are on a level according to all this; and it is a question of whether we are ready for these changes, because the service of God is peculiarly in mind in the Song of Songs, which is said to be Solomon’s, and there is a special reference to Christ which it seems to me peculiarly fits into the service of God on the first day of the week.
ECT You were referring to Abigail yesterday; she seemed ready for the change; she had sheep ready dressed, and so on. Would that come in?
JT Just so. She was ready for every change that was needed, or that occurred, even the wifely one; and of course we have the same idea in this book,
how the Lamb’s wife is equal to that position, and then she is provided with suitable attire.
HH Is the Lord’s personal presence connected with these thoughts — the changes operating in relation to the Lord as present?
JT You mean the Lord’s presence on the first day of the week?
HH Yes, or at any time.
JT Well, just so, whenever it may be, but especially on the first day of the week when these changes are particularly in view. But I wanted first to indicate the general thought in what I have been saying, that we are to be ready to leave our ordinary affairs, houses, children, and businesses; for a change is necessary to take on what is suitable for the sake of righteousness and holiness, so that we should be usable to the Lord as priests unto Him, because the priestly thought must come into it.
LPM Does John being on an island facilitate the position? What is in mind in “the island called Patmos”?
JT Well, I think it is isolation, very likely alluding to certain parts of the earth that are available to God in His government, and isolation is an advantage. And then, of course, if that be brought down to saints who may be isolated on the first day of the week, it is quite applicable, and so the change comes about in John’s case. I would say that he was in prison, or in some sense under persecution and all the more ready for the change that came about, the Lord taking account of him as in those circumstances.
CHG Would the males going up three times in the year to the place where Jehovah would place His name, fit in with this thought of change? They would have to leave their own affairs, many of them for a considerable journey, but their affairs would be looked after.
JT [p. 382] Just so. There would be hostile conditions on the way, as the Song of Solomon indicates; and then there is the occurrence recorded in Luke 2 as to the Lord Himself. He had been with His parents on the way going up to Jerusalem, and when they were returning they thought the Lord was with them, but He was not, showing that they were not in accord with the time. They were not in a state for such a time, and so they had to come back to Jerusalem and learn that they were in a position to be regarded as unfaithful to a charge. They were not fit at that time for the charge that was given to them. Mary says, “Thy father and I have sought thee distressed”, but He says, “Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father’s business?”. That is to say, He is ready, but they are not. So that may enter into what we are saying as to being ready for a change; if there be a charge, be faithful to it.
AWB Would the instruction in Psalm 45: 10, 11, fit in here? “Hearken, daughter, and see, and incline thine ear; and forget thine own people and thy father’s house, and the king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him”.
JT Very good. I would say that is quite applicable to what we are saying. She had to forget her own people and her father’s house so that the king should greatly desire her beauty.
WHW Would the voice here be like a word in the morning meeting that would bring the brethren to the point of being ready for a change?
JT Very good, only I think that the readiness ought to be in each of us in leaving our houses. We need a change to take our way from our houses to the place of assembly, because there is apt to be danger in that way. We are apt to be damaged or be the cause of damage, so that the moral side comes in there particularly, the purifying side, so that we are ready.
[p. 383] JP Does this matter come out on the holy mount where the Lord was transfigured, or changed, before them. Peter was not ready for the occasion, but later in the chapter the Lord says, “For me and thee”, bringing him into the light of the change himself?
JT Just so. So that the Lord in due time, although He had taken on change Himself, came to where they were, “they saw no one but Jesus alone”, Matthew 17: 8. Mark’s gospel adds “with themselves”; that was the final result, showing that the Lord takes on change when necessary, but then the question is whether Peter and the others were ready; clearly they were not.
AED Is that initial change seen in the reference to the Lord in Mark 16: 12, “After these things he was manifested in another form”?
JT Just so, I was thinking of that. We are not told what that form was, but it was another, a feature particularly seen in Mark.
AJG Have you in mind that this, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, is something that we should all be concerned to take up as we leave our houses?
JT That is what I was thinking. All are to be concerned, even the children are involved, in so far as we may impress them with what is their privilege, that the children are holy; so that the whole household may come in in this sense for the change. But, of course, if they are really believers and have the Spirit the thing should be more manifestly seen.
EBMcC I thought we saw the change in the Song of Songs 3:6, “Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant?”. She would be ready, would she [p. 384] not?
JT Yes, indeed. That chapter involves much in that sense as to the daughters of Jerusalem. Were they ready? because they are called upon to go forth and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart.
LF Is this change in any way consequent upon that which we had before us yesterday afternoon in relation to 1 Corinthians 10?
JT Well, what was before us then was the fellowship, and, of course, it enters into what we are saying.
CFI Would you say something about the Lord’s day in this connection as in contrast to the first day of the week?
JT It is the assertion of the Spirit of God as to the Lord’s authority and His having a right to certain days, to time. It really is an allusion to His deity, that He has a day. Of course, He made time; “All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being”, John 1: 3. He made everything, but He made time, and there is much said about it and about what is in the heavens, as to the lights and so on, but then He takes one day to Himself. It is the first thing alluded to, the idea of day, “God called the light Day”, Genesis 1: 5. Surely He has a right to one day; He has a right to them all, but He is asserting that right. He has rights in the sense of His part in the assembly in the service of God, and His own service. He has rights, and that brings up the question of the days of the week, the working days. Very many terms are used in Scripture as to these days, and now of course, we are in the midst of all these things like trade unionism and its assertions in regard to time; we are therefore dealing with a very important and practical matter, as to the first day of the week and whether we are ready for the Lord’s claim to time and our part in it.
Ques As this assertion of the Lord’s authority is made, it may confidently be expected that the Spirit would be especially active on that day?
JT I think so. That is good, for the divine Persons act together. It is a point which is in mind in Matthew particularly, that baptism is “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. If today the question of days comes up and what our baptism implies, then we are committed to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and the question of days would necessarily enter into that, whether we are ready for what divine Persons may require in the sense of time.
PHH May I ask if there is a kind of parallel change in the ground that the Spirit takes, alongside the changes that the Lord takes, and the saints, when we are speaking of the whole range of assembly service? I was thinking, for instance, of the Spirit as called the Spirit of the Lord, perhaps to occupy us with the Lord; and then the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of adoption, perhaps to occupy us with God, the Father, and with sonship, when the times for those changes are upon us.
JT The passage which comes to my mind immediately is 2 Corinthians 3 as bearing on the Lord’s supper, and the idea of change. It is said that we are “transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. The Lord is said to be the Spirit there, showing the interchange of thought between divine Persons, that the Lord is the Spirit. It also says that, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, so that this idea of change enters into that section peculiarly, and into the service of God beginning at the Lord’s supper. But the idea of the days is in our minds, and the divine Persons affected [p. 386] in them.
CCC Would an example of readiness to take on change be seen in Abraham in Genesis 18; when the three men stood near to him, he ran to meet them?
JT Very good. He is ready for the great moment, whereas Gideon in a like situation is not ready. He has great objections to make to the angel, to Jehovah Himself indeed, so that we have two cases in which one is ready and the other is not so. But there was the readiness with Abraham when he met the angels who came as three men. That would undoubtedly suggest the Godhead, which was not disclosed as yet, of course, as it was later, but undoubtedly the suggestion was there. Abraham is ready to remain with the Lord, but then they take on a certain mutual feeling toward Abraham and he is allowed to proceed in anything he wished to do toward Jehovah. The whole passage shows that he is ready and it helps us greatly in what we say, that is being ready, so that he is able to serve God; he distinguishes between Jehovah and the other two, and the other two are marked off as angels, whereas Jehovah allows Himself to be detained by Abraham, because He would specially distinguish Abraham, saying, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” Genesis 18: 17. Then we are told why, because “he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice”; hence much is opened up in the way of light for us in that particular incident. It should encourage us as to what we are dealing with now as to being ready, otherwise we may miss a great occasion.
DJM Is that readiness seen in, “I rejoiced when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah. Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem”, Psalm 122: 1, 2?
JT Very good. There was the state for it, you mean.
AJG [p. 387] The idea of haste and moving quickly marks Abraham and Sarah and the attendant, they are all in readiness to contribute to the occasion?
JT Yes. Sarah, however, is remiss in not being fully ready to make way for Christ, because we have to learn to make way for Christ as well as for God. She was not ready for what God was ready to disclose to her, that she was to have a son. She dissembled really.
AWB Samuel mourned for Saul; he was not ready for the anointing of David, was he?
JT Very good. He had plenty of time to be fully ready, because it had been disclosed to him what should happen, but he was not ready, and therefore exposed himself to a great mistake, to great error in his judgment. He called Jesse’s firstborn the Lord’s anointed, which he was not. All this only shows how we may be misled unless we are ready, and there is ample room to be ready because the Lord has given great light as to His Supper and the service of God in recent times, and the brethren ought to be ready, brothers and sisters alike, otherwise we shall miss great opportunities on these great occasions.
PL It says in Exodus 19: 11, “Let them be ready for the third day; for on the third day Jehovah will come down”; and again in verse 15, “Be ready for the third day”. That is in relation to the service of God, is it not?
JT Quite so, and in a later allusion in the same book to Jehovah coming down, Moses was to be ready (Exodus 34: 2).
EBMcC I was wondering if we see too how quickly Abraham was able to have things ready, when he is about to offer up his son. He rose up early in the morning. It says, “And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son;
[p. 388] and he clave the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up and went to the place that God had told him of”, Genesis 22: 3.
JT Very good. Much has been opened up from that; we all know that it refers to the sufferings of Christ.
ACSP Does Joshua 3 bear on this, the insistence that the people should be ready in view of crossing the Jordan, and keep their eye on the ark, and then the word, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you”?
JT Very good. They were to be prepared with victuals, ready in that sense for the great matter of crossing the Jordan.
ACSP I was wondering whether the insistence that they should watch the ark bore on what you were saying about the Lord’s preparedness to change?
JT One was aiming at the very practical side of the service of God which requires change when the time comes, because it is from glory to glory, and how many glories there are! Well, that we have to leave, because we are touching on infinitude as to glory, but we certainly ought to be ready for some of them, at least the idea of them, and hence, from glory to glory. The chapter alluded to in 2 Corinthians opens up the thought of glory. It began with the idea of a letter of commendation, which enters into our Lord’s day morning meetings, that is to say, in the announcements. Some of us were saying yesterday that in certain places the announcements of marriages, which are, of course, very important in relation to the testimony of God, are only made on the prayer meeting nights; whereas these announcements should precede the Lord’s supper, because we are dealing with the service of God, and the accompanying circumstances that may bear upon it at any time. Certainly marriages and deaths [p. 389] and the like ought to be announced as interesting to the saints.
DJM Providing an occasion for the manifestation of His glory as at Cana of Galilee?
JT Well, it would. That is where the manifestations of His glory began, really. They began at that time, at Cana, “This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him”, John 2: 11.
AED Would this matter of readiness bear on our right use of the small amount of time available to us?
JT Well, indeed. This very day and yesterday prove that, and we might say for the last week we have had constant pressure as to want of time. The service that we had in mind required time and the Lord was entitled to it, so that all this is of practical importance in regard to the service.
LPM So that we should be ready to break bread when we come together, and thus give plenty of time for the phases of the service as they are developed.
JT Quite so. Only that there is the exception as at Troas, that the apostolic rights, or rather Christ’s rights, enter into the matter, so Paul instead of having the bread broken or breaking the bread himself, discoursed at length. That was another change that had to be taken, because the brethren did not understand the truth of the Lord’s supper.
PHH When the Lord Jesus rose from the dead He said to Mary, “Go to my brethren”. Would that enable the saints to take on quickly a new appellation, a change in their own mind as to themselves?
JT Yes, because another thing comes up there, and that is the word ‘brethren’; it is used in a variety of ways, but the Lord’s using the phrase “my brethren” is another matter that comes into John 20 peculiarly. Although the synoptic gospels [p. 390] all have the thought of the Lord’s brethren (see Matthew 12: 49, 50; Mark 3: 34, 35; Luke 8: 21), John is exceptional and fuller in his meaning. So that the question now is whether we understand the word “brethren”, and in what sense the word applies when we first come together to partake of the Lord’s supper. We meet, and sit down together, and how do we regard each other? and then what may ensue after that? Another use of the word ‘brethren’ appears, but it is “my brethren”. Therefore we have to take on a change in both cases; that is to say at the beginning of the meeting, well, we are just as we were as we left our houses, as having already taken on change we may say, but the word ‘brethren’ there is just what we are as christians; we are just “brethren” to one another. Compare Matthew 23: 8.
GA Would the power of that communication, “Go to my brethren”, to which reference has been made, stand somewhat in relation to the matter of Mary experiencing change in herself? She first supposed Him to be the gardener, but then as the Lord speaks she immediately recognises Him as Teacher. Would not the saints as conscious of change be influential?
JT Very good. I am glad you brought all that up, because it is certainly very applicable. Mary was the one who bore the message to the disciples, showing what a great honour is put upon her, and she would not have had it were she not ready; but she was ready, and the fact that she was ready is seen in her ability to bring in a word that perhaps she may not have used much before, that is, “Rabboni”. It is not much used, but she used it; she knew the value of it. Only one other used it as far as I know.
GA Would the spirit of readiness be seen in John 12 where understandingly they made Him a supper, in consequence of what had preceded in [p. 391] chapter 11?
JT They are ready now for what chapter 12 opens up, you mean?
GA Yes, that the power of what was operative in the eleventh chapter, a great change, so to speak, had entered into their spiritual being, and they were ready for the great change now of making a supper for the Lord.
JT Quite so. So that the disclosures to Martha were essential to the readiness that He required in chapter 12; that is to say, she had to learn something about Him. He came into Judaea, but then He stayed in a certain place and Martha came to Him there, and He opened up certain things because she came. He could not have opened things up to her unless she came, but she did come. That just enters into what we are saying. She made herself ready in that sense for a disclosure, and so the Lord disclosed certain things to her, finally saying that her brother should rise again, and that He was the resurrection and the life. Then she went off to seek her sister and said to her, “The Master is come, and calleth for thee”, and then Mary came to Him, but the Lord did not come to meet Mary, she had to come to where Martha met Him, which is another matter. The Lord respected a woman like Martha when she was more or less right. She had not been right as to her state of soul, and indeed Luke does not disclose that she was corrected at all; but John gives us what is needed to show that she was corrected and ready for a disclosure, and that enters into chapter 12, which opens up another line of truth altogether.
HH Would not there be a difference between the Lord’s supper and the Lord saying, “Go to my brethren”? We break bread in the wilderness, and in that way we are not viewed as risen people; but the message conveyed to the brethren by Mary Magdalene would open up a new situation where the [p. 392] saints would be viewed as risen in relation to Christ. Is that right?
JT That raises the whole question of John’s ministry, and we are hardly equal to it now, nor have we the time for it. The message through Mary really rests on a change in her, because she had changed from the natural to the spiritual. She changed over when the Lord called her by her name, Mary; she discerned Him in that word. Then the Lord kept her from touching Him, but He says to her, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”, John 20: 17. So that she is in the position of being used. She does not really come into the full thought of the chapter, she is just a messenger. The disciples viewed collectively are seen in the full thought of the chapter; there is a collective position and the brethren are coming into it, and the message prepared them for it. So that the whole matter is full of changes, and enters into what we are saying today as to the first day of the week.
AJG Do the fifth and sixth chapters of the Song of Songs illustrate what we are saying? In one case she had put off her tunic, she was not ready; but in the next chapter he says, “Before I was aware, my soul set me upon the chariots of my willing people”, Song of Songs 6: 12. The willing people would indicate a ready response, would they not?
JT Just so, they were willing. He was on the chariots of His willing people, as far as the passage goes, which very much corresponds with the third chapter, where it is a sort of sedan chair; but the Lord had prepared for Him that by which He was carried, and it was paved with love. So that the whole matter alludes to what is provided for the Lord [p. 393] Himself.
PHH I should like to ask about the Person of the Lord in all these changes, because in Revelation chapters 1 and 22 it would appear that in our minds we must make room for His deity. Should we regard that at all?
JT I think we should. I intended that to come in, that the verses read in the last chapter involve the Lord’s deity, and it involves at the same time the great thought of the assembly. Throughout the whole book the truth emerges in that way as to Christ and the assembly, and that the Spirit is involved. We have already alluded to the divine Persons and how They relate to One Another in the services. In that chapter “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”, they both say the same thing, showing that the assembly is viewed very near to the Deity, perhaps nearer than any other family in the universe, to the Deity, to God; to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
PHH Would you, in that connection, make room for any expression of the Lord’s deity in addressing Him in this bridal relation?
JT Well, in so far as it is necessary to make clear in a spiritual sense that the Person is God, only it is a question now as to names used, and the relations conveyed in these names. But above all things we must ever bear in mind that the Lord Jesus is not changed, that there is no change in His Person; He may take on conditions, which He does, that is, human conditions and other forms as we have been speaking of it, but there is no change in His Person; He is the same all the time as to His Person.
PL “He is thy Lord, and worship thou him”, Psalm 45: 11.
JT It is conveyed there. Quite so.
EB Does that verse in a sense mark the terminus of the marital relations with the Lord in assembly? Is that the highest point that can be reached when [p. 394] we are in marital relations with the Lord consciously, “He is thy Lord, and worship thou him”?
JT I do not know about the highest, because authority is involved in it; that is to say, from her side she is to recognise that He is her Lord. I do not know that I would say that it is the highest point. I would like to know just what you have in mind.
EB I thought it was a reference to the Lord’s deity. I thought we had so used it as bearing out what our brother was inquiring about.
JT Well, what I was endeavouring to say, which I am sure is right, and what has been said by others is right too, is that the deity of the Lord must be ever kept in view in some sense; it may not need to be asserted, but I am sure His deity ought to be ever kept in view in our dealings with the Lord Jesus. He is a divine Person, equal with the Father, equal with God, and He Himself is God, and it may be a question of discernment and taste as to how we convey it, but it should always be in evidence. The changed conditions into which He comes do not alter His Person, because He says, for instance, “Before Abraham was, I am”, John 8: 58. That is His Person.
Ques Might there be a moment in the service of God when we could sing that verse of Hymn 181,
‘Thee — the great “I AM” — we worship,
Mighty God, Eternal One!’?
JT Very good. We entered into that fully at the time of the revision of the hymn book, and it was much before us and it ought to be before us. It was thought at that time, and it remains so, that the deity of Christ should always be put forward, however it may be expressed; whether in spirit or in formal statement it ought to be there, because infidelity and unitarianism are so much in religious thought, that we should be very careful to guard the [p. 395] Person of the Lord Jesus in every occasion in which it has to be mentioned, publicly and otherwise too.
PHH Do I gather that the thought of the deity of Christ, so to speak, interweaves itself in our minds with all these stages, or phases?
JT Quite so, so that the truth should be in conversation and in ministry, in the ears of men and in the ears of the saints; that there should be a fluid condition, as I understand it, in dealing with these matters, so that we can turn instantly to what is needed to preserve the truth, especially of the divine Persons.
AJG So that in making the garments of glory and beauty for Aaron it says, “And they beat the gold into thin plates, and cut it into wires, to work it artistically into the blue, and into the purple, and into the scarlet, and into the byssus”, Exodus 39: 3. Is that the idea?
JT Very good.
CFI Would you say a word as to union in relation to this thought? While the deity of Christ is ever in mind, is it His manhood that is especially in view in union?
JT Well, quite. We are not united to God, and yet He to whom, in manhood, we are united, is God. A certain denomination has no hesitation about saying that Mary is the mother of God; it is a terrible thing to say, but still it is just one of the things that we have to be guarded about; that we protect the divine Persons, and that there may be no allowance of anything that would discredit the Deity or assume that the creature belongs to It in any sense.
AJG Does not that emphasise the importance of what you have said recently, that the truth must be held in the Spirit. That is, that no human substitute for the truth will do; the truth has to be held in the Spirit, the Spirit being the [p. 396] truth.
JT Just so. So no one can say “Lord Jesus” except by the Spirit.
PL Would this be assured in the priests covering the ark before the Levites carried it?
JT That is a typical reference to what we are saying, that the Kohathites are the special Levites to look after what relates to divine Persons, and the holy things too.
GA Could we have the full substance of your thought as to verses 16 and 17 of chapter 22?
JT Well, we have the Lord introducing Himself, just Himself. As we were saying, it is Himself now, having passed through all the symbolical meanings of the book the Lord comes back to Himself. We are to be reverential about it; He says, “I Jesus”, speaking personally, and the “I” is emphatic, “have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. Now the Lord Jesus is speaking first, in the sixteenth verse, and it is as divine that He is speaking thus, and so He says, “I am the root”, that is in itself an assertion of Deity. He is the root of David, which means that He must be God. And then “the bright and morning star”, which is a title that He takes in view of the coming glories of His appearing — And then “the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. The Spirit is a divine Person, speaking as a divine Person, but the bride, although so glorious, is a creature. But she is the bride, and what is said in these verses indicates a family that has the nearest place to the Deity. That is what I would say as to verses 16 and 17.
JP Does the root and offspring of David come out in Colossians 1, the Lord as the Son of the Father’s love, His glories in deity and in manhood being brought before us [p. 397] there?
JT Yes, the Son of the Father’s love. Both divine Persons are implied.
GA Could you aid us in indicating how these two verses will help us in the service of God?
JT Well, to distinguish, as Abigail was able to distinguish certain features, as the word was, “Blessed be thy discernment”; so that in dealing with the service of God and having part in it, we are to have discernment, to have intelligence in it, so that we know how to speak to God, to speak to Christ, to speak of the Spirit, and even to speak to the Spirit, although it is very rare in the scriptures; it is right, because Numbers 21: 17 says, “Sing unto it”. “Rise up, well! sing unto it”. The “it” is an allusion typically to the Spirit. Therefore, as knowing these things, we know how to speak to the Father, know when to speak to Him, and we know when to speak to the Son and how to speak to Him, and so we may speak to the Spirit as a divine Person, equal with the Father and the Son.
GA You have touched every heart present, I believe, in that remark as to our great desire to know in what way we may speak to the Spirit. Every true heart longs to understand that, in the spirit of reverence, and anything further that you might be free to say as to that, I believe every heart here awaits.
JT Well, He certainly is a divine Person, and He speaks independently as a divine Person, especially in regard to the service of God. He says, “Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”, Acts 13: 2. Who could say that but a divine Person, and a divine Person in authority? And so there are other scriptures. But then, what I am speaking of is the type in Numbers 21; the word is, “Rise up, well! sing unto it”. The “it” is the Spirit typically, that is to say, the singing [p. 398] to the Spirit is warranted. We have a hymn that refers to praises for the Spirit. Hymn 126 (Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Little Flock, 1932 edition),
‘Praises for the Holy Ghost,
Sent from heav’n at Pentecost;
’Tis through Him that now we live,
And the precious truth receive’. (see 191:3)
That hymn was changed as used in our meetings. But, anyway, it is right as warranted by Scripture as I said. It is only a question of the Spirit Himself hiding His own glories, because He has taken a lowly place.
PHH I think we have all found a desire in our own hearts at times to speak to the Spirit, but would you make room for such a thing in assembly service?
JT Well, I was just saying that the Spirit is wonderfully lowly in the place He takes in the economy of God; the Father is supreme, but then there are three Persons. The Lord says, “Baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. Matthew 28: 19. That phrase asserts the deity of all Three, only that Two of Them are taking a lower place than the First, but that is only in the economy; it is not at all to weaken in any way the fact that the Three are One and the Three are equal. And when we are in the service of God we know, we are instructed, according to this verse, as to when to speak and how to speak to each Person, if necessary; we know what terms to use, and the Spirit is wonderfully lowly, as we have said. He is said to be sent from heaven. The Lord Jesus is never said to be sent from heaven, as far as I know. The Spirit is said to be sent from heaven, meaning that the Spirit is taking an inferior place publicly, or outwardly, in regard to the divine [p. 399] economy.
EB Would you say that the reference in Ezekiel 37: 9: “Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind” (the alternative translation is ‘spirit’) would have any bearing upon what you are saying?
JT Certainly. The Spirit is there; but He has taken a lowly place, and that is a wonderful thing for us to keep in mind. He has taken a lowly place, and has been here on earth for over 1900 years in that lowliness. He maintains what is due to God according to what God is in heaven; there is a perfect answer to that in the presence of the Spirit down here, and the Spirit is here in the assembly; and that brings out the greatness of the assembly’s place too, but nevertheless the assembly is never part of the Deity.
JP-sn Do we see this matter coming out in Rebecca? She says to the servant, “Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?”. Would speaking to the Spirit be in that way about Christ Himself? The Spirit as unfolding Christ to us?
JT Well, indeed. In fact the man wonders when he sees the features of Rebecca coming out in what she does, the service she renders. The man, that is, Abraham’s servant, the chief servant of his house, is undoubtedly typical of the Spirit of God, and he wonders at what Rebecca does, showing how the Spirit can take such an attitude, and yet He never changes as regards His Person — God is here by the Spirit according to Ephesians. God is here by the Spirit, for the Spirit is God. In Ephesians 2: 22 it really reads, ‘A habitation of God in Spirit’, not in the Spirit, but in Spirit. It is God; the Spirit there is God.
DJM Have you time for a word on the latter part of verse 17 and how it widens out?
JT Well, it is just to show how that when a great event such as is depicted in that verse occurs.
[p. 400] the influence of it is spread. For instance, when the Lord Jesus comes from heaven, as He will, according to 1 Thessalonians 4, it will be a great occasion, and the influence and bearing of it will spread everywhere. It is the time of the resurrection, so we are said to be sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. We are sons of a thing; that is, the resurrection, which will be worked out when the Lord Jesus descends from heaven and the saints are raised. But there will be more than that, for the ascension will also take place then. I am using all that to show how a great spiritual event spreads out in its influence and bearing; and that is what will happen when the Lord comes and the assembly goes up. There will be the greatest matters occurring on the earth at that time, and the saints will no doubt be ready for them.