THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (3)
[p. 188] THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (3)
1 Thessalonians 3: 1 - 13; 1 Thessalonians 4: 1 - 18
JT The third chapter continues the record of the apostle’s tenderness of affection toward the Thessalonians, and then in chapter four we have the great subject in mind of the Lord’s coming for us. Evidently the first epistle has in view our preparation and fitness for our translation, although it may be, and is, a question of comforting the saints as to those who have fallen asleep. Yet now, in view of all that is past, we can see that the coming of the Lord for us and our readiness for it are in the apostle’s mind, hence the need of those affections being developed that are so evident in this epistle. There can be no doubt, as we observe what is current generally amongst the saints, that love among the saints is increasing with the corresponding disallowance of all that is contrary to it, all that tends to disunion, because it is obvious that the translation of the assembly must involve its completion in every respect; thus, much must be done and, of course, God can do it, because He can work, according to Scripture, rapidly. Much must be done in view of completion.
Ques In this thought of completion, how do you view the divided state that exists amongst believers today? Is that to be altered?
JT I do not think it will be in a general way, but still things can happen toward the end rapidly; in fact as to judgment itself, according to chapter 5 and the next epistle and other scriptures, the work will be rapid. The protraction of certain events is one thing, and the contraction of them is another, contraction involving what is done rapidly, that is to say, in three and a half years or at the most seven [p. 189] years; we are bound to pay attention to the literality of prophecy in that sense, because it is a question of actual time. Regarding the positive side, the question is what can be done, what God can do quickly, especially in view of 1 Corinthians 15: 52, “in the twinkling of an eye”. Paul speaks of it as a mystery; he says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery”; that must enter into this short period; whereas in what we are engaged with now, extending over years, one hundred and fifty years maybe, of the revival there has been protraction, a great extension of things, and it is still going on, but still God can do things quickly, and will do them when He decides to act, to finish up, as it says, “Then the end”. There is such a thing as that to have in our minds.
Ques Would there be a distinction between the perfecting of His work with those that are in the testimony as we say, and the final touch that will make the assembly ready to answer to the shout?
JT Well, I think the protracted period will continue, therefore the responsibility of each of us to carry on the work, but then what may partake of miracle will come. I believe it is contemplated in this epistle that God will act miraculously. From what we know of Him and the history of the truth and the testimony it is not to be wondered at because the conditions require that there must be some speedy action. The same would be true as to the millennial period when it comes in, dealing with Asia; these chapters deal with Europe, that is to say, with the propagation of christianity and the effect of it, whereas Asia is still held in abeyance. What has been done in India is a small matter as compared with what has to be done, and God will act in a swift way; that is, by an angel flying in mid-heaven.
HH In that way the fourth living creature, the flying eagle, would come into line with these [p. 190] thoughts.
JT I would think so. Especially the fact that the eagle is one of the creatures, but it would be speedy work certainly.
AJG Even as regards constructive ministry, is it not significant that with the Lord working mightily through Paul at Ephesus, it only took three years to bring about an assembly which was in the full gain of all the counsel of God?
JT That is a good remark, illuminating too. It shows how things can be done even in the protracted period; that is to say, the present period.
Ques Have we a simple illustration of it in Gideon who was told to take his stand as regards idolatry in his father’s house? He took that stand at night, and found God had worked with his father overnight; his father was with him and not against him in the morning.
JT Quite so, and then he asked for a miracle; that is to say for the action on the fleece, “And Gideon said to God, If thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said, behold, I put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor; if dew shall be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the ground, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said. And it was so. And when he rose up early on the morrow, he pressed the fleece together, and wrung dew out of the fleece, a bowl-full of water”, Judges 6: 36 - 38. A bowl full. Very small, of course, but it was enough for a sign. Now verses 39, 40, “And Gideon said to God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once! Let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it, I pray thee, be dry upon the fleece only, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night, and it was dry upon the fleece only, but on all the ground there was dew”. So that in what you are saying, I think it is well to take account of this, what we may call a [p. 191] miracle. That is to say, God answering Gideon’s prayers so that he might be assured. It is not, indeed, that any one of us would hope for a miracle, or anything in the sense of a vision so that we might be able to tell when the Lord is coming, but at the same time there is enough to indicate that He is coming very soon. This sign is notable as assuring faith as to what will happen.
AJG Perhaps you would say what is the import of this double sign?
JT I would think it alludes to Israel and the nations. For the first part of the sign he put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor and said, “If dew shall be on the fleece only”, I would think that the fleece there and the dew on it only, would be a type of God’s dealings with Israel throughout. And then, the second sign would be what is universal. That is to say, “Let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it, I pray thee, be dry upon the fleece only, and upon all the ground let there be dew”, “All the ground” would be a universal thought, as compared with the special dealings of God with Israel. We had it yesterday, “All Israel shall be saved”, but then it is not going on now. The dew is general, that is, it is universal, but especially on Europe and its outgoings westward, including the British Empire.
Ques Does it emphasise, too, the sovereignty of God, in that He works where He will at one time and at another place at another time, and that faith lays hold of that?
JT Just so. We are tested as to whether we can lay hold of the thoughts of God as indicated in the three sons of Noah. Their names are given and what their names mean, too, are given to us; clearly Japheth is in mind for the assembly, that is, that sphere of the earth out of which the [p. 192] assembly is drawn.
EESL Would these two signs include also a reference to the Lord in humanity, on whom alone the dew rested, and to His death, in order that the dew might be on all around?
JT Well, I think that would be good; I would go with that; only the thought of the dew being on the fleece might easily be expanded from Christ Himself to Israel.
PHH Would this thought of the rapid touch of God at the end explain perhaps why some believers seem to pass all their lives without the Spirit, but I suppose, it would be hardly right to say that they are taken away without the Spirit?
JT I do not think it would be right to say it, because, whatever we may say, God can do things quickly, and it is the day of the Spirit. We read in John 7: 39 that “The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. That is to say, the effect of Christ’s redemption would be worked out in the presence of the Spirit, and that presence is continuous, and so the results are continuing.
DND I would like to refer to Philippians 1: 9: “And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and all intelligence, that ye may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent in order that ye may be pure and without offence for Christ’s day, being complete as regards the fruit of righteousness”.
JT Your thought is that that has application to what we have been saying? Being complete as regards the fruit of righteousness. That is, the apostle has the thought of completeness in his ministry amongst the Philippians, and we all know, perhaps, that this statement was very significant that they had had fellowship with him from the first day and had not faltered at all. So that they can be regarded as indicating the work of Paul, how effective it was, how resultful it was, and how he had [p. 193] in mind in his prayer for them that they should be complete.
HJM Does the miracle of the dew and the fleece find its answer in the tenth and eleventh chapters of Romans? The apostle exclaims, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!”
JT That is one of the rich doxologies of Romans and very significantly comes in at the close of the eleventh chapter. The ninth, tenth and eleventh chapters are a great parenthesis in the teaching, to link up the first part of the book dealing with the ministry among the nations, with God’s ways as to Israel, and the promises to the fathers, because they were beloved on account of the fathers. It is a question of God’s love, and hence the enlargement of the prophetic truth as to Israel, and therefore, as we had it yesterday, “All Israel shall be saved”. It is very significant that there is such a doxology as that, that such feelings come out of the heart of God as in that doxology, because it is a question of His love. We cannot say that the nations are loved at all, but it does say the world was loved, “God so loved the world”, but that is the world as a system of order, which indicates what God has done in creation. So that it has not just the same personal value as the end of the parenthesis that I am alluding to, because it is a question of the fathers’ sakes; He loved them for the fathers’ sakes. “So that all Israel shall be saved”; and then we see the terribleness of the gentile position, because they will be cut off. There will be no remedy at all for the gentiles for there is nothing promised to them afterwards, whereas there is something promised to Israel.
HJM But for the moment, the world’s reconciliation is the dew on the ground. Is that right?
JT Just so, that is [p. 194] the idea.
LPM Does the reference to Timothy twice in the third chapter provide some link with the present moment amongst the saints, and the finishing touches that Timothy would secure as representing the apostle?
JT And he is remaining too. So that what is said of him as to the teaching, runs on to the third generation.
LPM You are referring to the passage which alludes to “the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also”, 2 Timothy 2: 2?
JT Exactly. So that if you take account of what is said, there are clearly three generations, and the ministry is to go on through Timothy’s mediatorship. I think the brethren will have all known that, and I think it is well to bring it in here, as to the teaching of Paul, and how it continued and could be handed on to another; the reference to Timothy in this chapter, of course, enters into that.
EB So the second epistle to Timothy has come into great prominence just before the close of the present dispensation, 2 Timothy 2 having become a watchword of saints in the revival.
JT It has been, you might say, the great text on which we base our position. 2 Timothy has helped us in recent times as to the ground of gathering, and how the work of God is to continue. Instead of assuming that we are in Pentecostal days in the administration of discipline, we can resort to 2 Timothy. The earlier thought had been based on 1 Corinthians 5, that discipline should take the form of putting away, whereas the more recent adjustment implied that we withdraw from iniquity, and that is what we are doing now, and God is helping us, so that the teaching is continuing.
EB [p. 195] Does that bear on the two thoughts of protraction and contraction, that God had made provision in the epistle to Timothy for the extension of the assembly’s history for so long, so that now in days of contraction, we still find that God had made adequate provision, even during Paul’s day, in his letter to Timothy?
JT So that we can withdraw, even if it is only one person, as, for instance, in Estonia, where there was only one brother in the meeting and the others were sisters, and he sinned, and they withdrew from him, so that the ground is clear; and it is clear, however few or many, we can withdraw.
EGJ Do the three generations that you mentioned suggest to us God’s intervention for us in the present day, Timothy, faithful men, and others also?
JT Yes, others also, you are stressing that, and of course, we can take our place among the “others also”. We are not pretending much in that, certainly, because there are a good many of us. However able any one of us may be, he takes his place with the others, because there are many others that have been taught and are able themselves to teach too.
EESL Timothy himself was of the third generation.
JT And a young man, too, so that there is good hope for the young men amongst us, and that is, I believe, what the Lord is stressing, as to what He has under His hand.
PHH Along with taking the ground of being among the “others also” are we to be exercised as faithful men? I am thinking, for instance, of meetings like these where the Lord is giving us some truth; should we be exercised to pass it on by way of instruction — “such as shall be competent to instruct others also”?
JT To instruct. The greatest need I know of is teaching, because the brethren are not very well [p. 196] taught. I am not criticising anybody, but it is lamentable how poor the teaching is among the brethren here and there.
Ques Does that agree with the end of Matthew, where the Lord says that His support with His people and His presence will be contingent upon their teaching all the things which He commanded them?
JT Just so. The Lord guarantees things for us too in Matthew, and it arises from discipline, from a person who is trespassing against another person and fails to judge himself. It arises from that and the Lord says, “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”, Matthew 18: 20. He says before that, “If two of you”, meaning that He is stressing the assembly. The verse reads, “Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens”, so that we can count on the Father’s support in that sense in prayer, two of us, and then two or three of us gathered together.
JS Is there not great encouragement in view of what you were saying yesterday as to reduction, that an answer is assured to two agreeing.
JT Well, it is significant that it is linked up with Matthew, for Matthew, next to 2 Timothy, I think, has been the great standby for the brethren during all these years of the revival. Matthew is the assembly gospel, and as the Lord is not referred to in it as having ascended, it means that He is here with us, so we can confidently carry on, however few, because He is here with us always. It is in view of teaching, so that the teaching has gone on, not only the oral ministry as we have just now at these meetings but the written ministry, and of course, these meetings have taken on this character through note [p. 197] taking so that they are written too, but it is primarily a question of oral ministry by a person who is able to serve the saints. The written ministry has assumed, however, very large proportions, especially in the Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, which have circulated throughout the whole christian profession, and have been widely read. God has thus rendered a great testimony in the written ministry, and it is so, in our own case, whether it be spoken or written, spoken first and then written afterwards, which perhaps makes it more valuable as permanently recorded. Those who minister thereby know the actual facts of the situation and how the truth came out, and minister accordingly.
AJD Does the word to Timothy, “Enjoin and teach these things”, link on with what you are saying?
JT Quite so; enjoin and teach.
Ques You have often spoken of the urgent need for teaching, and of the lack that you have observed. How do you account for that condition? Could you put your finger on anything?
JT Well, I would say, to be simple, and not critical, that I believe the sisters are not instructed, and that perhaps the husbands forget that their wives need instruction, and that the sisters leave the teaching side to their husbands, whereas in the beginning women were more instructed, especially as there was prophetic power amongst them. There is not any now that I know of, and I believe the Lord would speak to the husbands, all of us, as to our wives and see to it that they become instructed in the truth, because if they are not instructed the children will not be instructed.
HW Do you think the failure might be in a lack of headship?
JT That is good, and hence the Lord’s supper has acquired such a place amongst us, and effectively [p. 198] too, and the thought of headship comes in first. It stands between the general thought of the Lord’s supper in the sense of fellowship in chapter 10 and the actual thought of the celebration of it in chapter 11. That is, headship comes in between those two things, and the sisters perhaps are allowed to proceed without the thought of headship being insisted on.
GA Do you think in the matter of teaching, that we may have neglected to some extent the distinctive features of the first epistle to Timothy, which so repeatedly alludes to the matter of teaching, the Spirit of God using the words ‘teaching’ and ‘teacher’ repeatedly, as though it would prepare us for the second epistle?
JT Well, there is great stress laid on sisters in the first epistle, and even on the age at which they should be contributed to financially, that is to say, not below sixty years. Well, these are all matters of great importance which the Spirit of God has written down, and we are to look into them and inquire as to whether our sisters, our wives, and our daughters are kept in our minds for instruction.
AED Sisters are emphasised in the word in the second epistle, “In thy grandmother Lois, and in thy mother Eunice, and I am persuaded that in thee also”.
JT Yes; there it is.
ECT Even Apollos, a servant, is helped by Aquila and Priscilla, Acts 18: 26.
JT They are equally mentioned, showing that sisters are capable of advancing, as their husbands are, in some things.
PHH As to what is practical in the way of teaching, would it be diverting you to say a word about the three-day meetings? They are in our minds a good deal, though not so prominently in this part, nor in England as they are in [p. 199] America.
Would they provide a suitable opportunity to pursue teaching?
JT Yes, I think for a course of instruction. Week-end fellowship meetings, that is afternoon and evening, hardly afford a course of instruction, I believe what is said to Timothy, “Instruct others also”, involves instruction in a course, and what enters into that is the departmental system inaugurated by David, that things are continued in a course, so that they are fully developed, and I believe the matter of three days is important because it affords time for a course of instruction. You can take up a subject and go through it as we are doing now. “Three days” is a spiritual reference.
GA There has been a little reservation of thought in our minds as to whether a three-day occasion embracing the Lord’s day constitutes a gathering of such a character properly in the mind of the Lord.
JT Well, of course, the first day of the week ought to be made prominent in any matter that we are dealing with, that is the Lord’s day. At the same time I think the practice in Great Britain in these larger meetings is right; that is, they usually begin on the Tuesday and end on the Thursday. That is to say, they allow time for prayer, and what we have seen often is significant, that the stress on Paul and Silas in Philippi brings out that prayer precedes praise. I mean the idea of preparation, that prayer is provided for on the Monday, whereas if we begin on Monday, as we have done this time, then we miss the prayers and the exercise that follows on the Lord’s day preceding the special meetings. I believe we would do well to go by experience in these matters and what has been inaugurated in Great Britain has stood the test well.
Ques Would the addition of one day to the normal fellowship meeting be an expression of what [p. 200] you have in mind as to the three-day meetings? In some place, I believe in Australia, the brethren may add one day to their normal fellowship meetings and may think of that as corresponding to what we have spoken of as three-day meetings.
JT That is to say the Lord’s day is included. I would agree to that too; in fact in America we are bound to include the Lord’s day in these occasions, because the travelling is so great and the first day of the week of course, coming in after the beginning, affords another day.
Ques Does not that fit in rather happily, in view of the fact that the sisters and children are present?
JT I would think so. But at the same time I would not like to see the abandonment of meetings such as these we are now having in Sydney to which brothers are invited, because we get quality. We get more ability in those who are present, who are, you might say, selected; they are here by choice, which is right enough; it is scriptural, for the idea is conveyed in Nehemiah 8: 13, as we have often noticed. There was the general thought of all the brethren first, and then on the second day the chief fathers, the priests and the Levites gathered to Ezra to get instruction from the Scriptures.
Rem It would be well for that distinction to be preserved, in view of the exercise as to three-day meetings becoming more general, that perhaps they would not be quite on the level of occasions such as this.
JT Even if they are not on the level of it, it is well for us to understand that there is such an occasion as this, and it might be very special, and we can count on God to make it such, because He is ready to answer us.
Rem You have distinguished, I think, between the one-day fellowship meeting for which a collection [p. 201] is taken up to pay for the food, and the three-day meetings, at which sisters and children are present, which are on a higher level sufficient to warrant assembly giving.
JT Well, they are, I understand, on a higher level because in the main the arrangement of these three-day meetings, even although they may include the week-end, is a question of the truth, and the assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. The brethren who arrange for these three-day meetings have in mind the truth in a general and a full way; that is to say, they take it up in a systematic and a general way and God blesses it, whereas that cannot be done at week-end meetings which become more a matter of fellowship and a way of getting together.
RRT As you know, we have been free in America to invite a brother from a longer distance for three-day meetings, than we would for a fellowship meeting. Is that right?
JT Well, I know it is a fact at San Francisco and Los Angeles and Vancouver, but if you have a brother nearby to take the meetings there is no reason why he should not take them, because distance does not add to a brother’s ability.
ECT Do the three-day meetings give more the thought of dwelling together for that time and in the same place?
JT Well, they do, but the main thing that we are leading to now is a question of the truth, and as is stated in Timothy, the teaching.
ECT The truth being developed in that kind of atmosphere, I had in mind.
JT The truth is the point, I think, that we should all keep before us, the question of the truth, and Paul says to Timothy that the “assembly is the pillar and base of the truth”. No week-end can give [p. 202] time enough for a development of any subject such as we are engaged in now. We would want to go through the thing in a systematic and orderly way, and in our houses, of course, we have opportunity to look into it systematically and get the truth in its general bearing. I think all that is of profound importance.
LPM You made a reference some little time ago to the matter of teaching, and I suppose it requires competency on the part of those who serve, to instruct others also; do you feel that the brethren need to pay more attention to the ministry and take it on, so as to disseminate it better?
JT Those who are leading or are given the place of leadership should be able to instruct, and I believe they are able, and we should thank God that there are so many of them. At the same time there may be special occasions and I think the Scripture warrants that. What I have referred to in Nehemiah 8: 13, is an evidence of it.
PL In regard to Nehemiah 8, verse 18 says, “Also day by day, from the first day to the last day, he read in the book of the law of God”. Does that fit in with the extended period to which you have referred?
JT Especially the thought of the law of God, a very strong expression covering any dispensation, but especially the present one and the one attached to Israel. These are the two main dispensations, though there are others besides, but the law of God would at least cover these two dispensations, because the first dispensation that we have had to do with is Israel, and to them were committed the oracles of God, and what we have in christianity is, the outcome of that; it is a question of the oracles of God. They are now fixed, that is to say each Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable. The [p. 203] text is fixed and the brethren know it, and therefore the whole matter comes up when we have sufficient time, such as three days, to look into it.
PL Let him speak “as oracles of God”, 1 Peter 4: 11.
JT Quite so.
JP Does the completeness that you referred to require not only the teaching but the recognition on the part of all who are being instructed, of the necessity for hearing and taking in the truth? That is, that it is not optional?
JT What we are now dealing with is a great matter, a dispensational matter, and the idea of dispensation in the main is applicable to Israel and christianity, and Israel had the oracles at the beginning — “to them were entrusted the oracles of God”, Romans 3: 2, and God worked accordingly. Then Christ came in and He was Himself the truth. He said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life”, John 14: 6. The Spirit of God is also said to be the truth, so that we are now in the second great dispensation and it is really the greatest of all, and the ministry has in mind the oracles of God, and so 1 Corinthians provides for the oracles of God; we have already referred to Romans, that the oracles of God were committed to the Jews, but then that has all come into christianity and hence the oracles of God are vested in the temple of God. It is not a temple built by hands, but a spiritual temple, “Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”. That is the principle of these extended meetings; that is to say, it is not a question of fellowship only, but it is the truth, the truth of God, and the assembly is the pillar and base of it, so that the assembly must be in mind in some sense for any three-day meetings that are arranged for [p. 204] us.
JP Does 1 Chronicles 12: 38 - 40 bear that out, the men of war came to make David king, but all Israel were of the same mind, confirming it?
JT The mighties too, the mighties were men who could do things, and we are told what they could do. It was not a question of a large number of them, but one or two or three.
AJG Are you stressing that in this matter of teaching it is not only a question of gift, but also of temple light as the saints are together in the assembly?
JT Quite so. Only, that gift is important in view of the need of authority, because authority goes with gift.
AJG Hence Timothy was enjoined, “Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth”. Is that necessary in view of sound teaching?
JT Very good. Another thing that ought to be said is that Timothy had a peculiar place, and so did Titus, perhaps others, but they were the apostle’s delegates, and so they could do what none of us can do because they represented apostolic authority. There is no such thing as that now, but it existed then, and that makes a great difference between the early days and the present days; so no individual can administer a rebuke, for instance. It requires the assembly to administer a rebuke now, whereas Paul could tell Timothy that those who sinned should be rebuked before all.
DJM Can the care meeting administer a rebuke?
JT No, I do not think so. The care meeting is only a tentative thing, it is not the assembly, it has no authority really, except moral authority, but the assembly has actual authority as committed to her by [p. 205] Christ.
JWH In view of failure in this matter of actions in care meetings in times past, how do matters stand as regards the present? Is it necessary for matters to be reviewed in the light of this or are they to be left in view of our ignorance in the past?
JT As far as I know, what we call the care meeting was not a part of the system of truth or procedure in the apostles’ time, because there was no need for it, because the apostles were there and their delegates were there, and the assembly too was there. As far as I know the phrase ‘care meeting’ is modern; but God has honoured it, because it is simply expressing the word care, and that care is taken on by certain brothers. It might be taken on by others, but that is all it is, but God has honoured it, because the brethren are working in the light of His mind and seeking to apply His mind as to facts, but the administration or ultimate action on the facts must be taken by the assembly.
JWH I understand that, but I ask as to past actions in which those gathered together in care have exercised discipline and certain persons have been told not to break bread, and that has never been reviewed by us.
JT What scripture was the action based on?
JWH It was on the principle of withdrawal, but it was done by the care meeting instead of by the assembly.
JT Well there is an error there. That is all you can say about that.
JE The difficulty is as to what means might be taken to rectify these matters? Can any action be taken now to put matters right?
JT Well, there is such a thing as Leviticus 4; if a priest errs, or the assembly errs, it can be rectified, or judged in the sense of it being recalled and pronounced as wrong, if it is shown [p. 206] to be wrong.
DJM Could you help as to this matter of convening the saints in assembly character for the administration of a rebuke other than according to 1 Corinthians 5. A case may be before us where brethren do not feel we should go as far as withdrawal, but the gravity of the thing should be brought home to the conscience of all.
JT Then why should it not be dealt with by the assembly? If it be some error, what was the error that was to be dealt with?
LPM Is there any rebuke that the assembly can administer short of withdrawal in the light of the teaching of 1 Corinthians 5?
JT “Whatsoever ye” in Matthew 18 refers to the assembly. The Lord leaves it with us. John 20 has to be taken account of in discipline as well as 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18. John 20 is the gracious side of the truth, and the Lord before He announced what He had in mind, breathed into the disciples so as to qualify them for anything they might do, and then He leaves things to them to do. He does not tell them what to do. He says, “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”, as much as to say heaven endorses what they do; really the Lord had full confidence in what they would do. Well now the question is, whether the case referred to can be dealt with under that head.
AED Must we not take up each case in its own individual setting and not lay down any rules exactly? Would not the ministry we have had as to priesthood have in mind that there should be ability to discern just where the person is?
JT But we are now dealing with procedure, whether a few of the many brethren, the care meeting as it is called, whether there is attached to their action that which the Lord speaks of, “Whose soever sins ye remit”. Who are the “ye”?
LPM Would that require the [p. 207] assembly?
JT It does. That is as John presents it. That is the assembly, or those who form it. Mary Magdalene was included in that in a certain sense, because she had to do with the message that the Lord sent to the disciples.
Ques Is there any suggestion in John 20 of a midway course between remission and retention?
JT I do not think so. The Lord is giving them a blank cheque. “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”. Then the “ye” is the point. Who are they? And that raises the whole question as to what John means, and where the assembly is to be found in John, and it is in the persons who form it, but the idea is there; the Lord is not committing himself to anything less than that idea.
Rem I think it would be perfectly clear to all that the “ye” involves the assembly, but I think the question would arise in some minds as to whether rebuke was a kind of midway course between those two, between remission and retention.
JT The midway course is not the right course.
JP You have said that John 20 has the persons who form the assembly in view; must the assembly be convened for them to act in the way of remitting or retaining?
JT I think so. The “ye” would mean that, because we have to read scripture with scripture, and Paul is the great architect of the assembly. He is the great architect, the Lord has constituted him that, and therefore when we come to matters of this kind that John deals with, we cannot ignore what Paul says. If Paul has formally dealt with anything, then we must go by what he says as well as what John says; in fact, let Paul’s word have prominence.
JP If the course is to be remission, might that be accompanied by a rebuke?
J.T. By whom?
JP [p. 208] By the assembly. It might be that one who would voice the judgment of the assembly might feel that it was the assembly’s mind that a rebuke should be administered.
JT Well, where is the scripture you are dealing with?
JP I am just asking the question, in view of what has been said as to the assembly rebuking.
JT Who is the person who administers rebuke?
JP Someone must speak on behalf of the saints as convened in conveying a judgment. I was contemplating a case where it was felt that the mind of the assembly was that a rebuke should be administered by the person who voices the judgment of the assembly.
JT Well, but is the assembly there? The Lord is speaking of the “ye”, and the authority He is committing to them.
LPM If we remit, it is an unconditional matter, is it not?
JT Yes. There could be no remission in such a case except by the assembly, as far as I see. If he does not hear the assembly, that is the point Matthew makes. Matthew is authoritative clearly, but then John has the same teaching in his mind too, and Paul pre-eminently has the same teaching, and the assembly must be in mind; if you are dealing with anything you must not leave it out.
LPM The assembly having come together, it would remit or it would retain, and there is nothing between those two thoughts?
JT Nothing between, nothing at all. It is one or the other.
CFI Does true repentance towards God meet the whole position?
JT Well, just so. Why should not the whole position be there? It is a question of the dispensation and God has linked Himself up with that. He is [p. 209] the Author of it, and He is in it in the Spirit being here, being sent down here, and here all these centuries. So that we are to have reference to Him, what He is doing. Therefore the Lord breathes into them before He told them what to do as to remission and retention.
HW Would you say that the Lord Himself in John 21 gives us a beautiful example of how the action might be done, in His dealing with the seven erring brothers? There was no rebuke on His part whatever as to their action.
JT Quite. That is a very beautiful passage, but at the same time the thing is there and the Lord probed Peter, and He recognised what Peter said, that what he was saying was to be relied on; the Lord acknowledged that. So I think the whole matter implies what we are saying now. The Lord did not pass the offence by, but He had His own way of dealing with it. On the other hand He was doing that, but now we are dealing with persons delegated by Him to do it; that is to say, the assembly.
Rem I would like to get clearer the thought in your mind. I gather you are not suggesting that every matter that comes before the care meeting must of necessity go to the assembly. There are matters, I suppose, that come up and are considered as sufficiently clear without further action being taken.
JT Quite so. I believe the Lord is in the way things are being done now. What the brethren decide on as before God because of facts, and you are dealing with facts, is in principle brought to the assembly, because the announcements are made in the assembly, on the Lord’s day.
JE Can forgiveness be administered in any sense short of the assembly? Providing repentance is evident to the brothers as in care, might forgiveness be administered there?
JT [p. 210] Well. Matthew 18 provides for forgiveness of the trespass; that is, the person who is trespassed against forgives. That is, of course, manifest.
HJM Where does the scripture, “Rebuke before all” fit in with this passage?
JT That was said to an apostolic delegate directing what should be done in any particular meeting. Suppose Timothy was at Ephesus, or Titus in Greece or at Crete, it would be a question of the assembly, of course, but he would direct what to do.
AJG The scripture reads, “Those that sin convict before all, that the rest also may have fear”, 1 Timothy 5: 20. I was wondering whether the point in the passage was not so much giving direction as to a mode of procedure, but rather the moral effect by the way things are done on the conscience of the person concerned, and on all the rest.
JT Well, just so. But still there is the idea of convicting. Maybe it is a solemn word but that idea is in it. What we are saying, I am sure, is right, because anything put on the care meeting or on a brother, that belongs to the assembly, should be condemned.
Ques In regard to your earlier reference to Leviticus 4, does that come now within the administration as given to us by the apostles?
JT Well, there it is. Even the assembly can judge itself for a wrong action as well as a priest.
Ques My inquiry relates to how far we can bring the assembly in, in that regard, or would it be persons responsible as in the assembly?
JT It should be the assembly. The word “assembly” is there. “And if the whole assembly of Israel sin inadvertently, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the congregation, and they do somewhat against any of all the commandments of Jehovah in things which should not be done, and are guilty”, Leviticus 4: 13. There it is, what need we say about it? It is a question of the assembly.
Ques Does that not suggest some overt action, some transgression of what was laid down?
JT Well, it might be overt, but it says “inadvertently”. The sin is there anyway.
Rem I was thinking, on reflection, that we may look back over the years and see certain things that indicated a low state or perhaps ignorance of assembly principles without perhaps its amounting to anything quite so definite as an inadvertent sin.
JT Well, why do we make these qualifications? I always go by the Scriptures. Whatever it is, certain things have to be done in accordance with that chapter.
Ques If there is anything to be reviewed it must be something specific, must it not?
JT Yes, quite so, but a specific thing is there; it is spoken of in Leviticus 4.
GA Would this scripture provide for the review by a local assembly of a past history in which specific things were done which are recognised now to have been against the Lord and the truth? If it has been, in an individual sense, judged, how is the local company to be cleared entirely of the matter?
JT Well, has it been taken up and judged in any sense?
GA The teaching was judged and the teacher refused, but the party conditions were not really recognised for a long period; that is now dawning upon the brethren. What is the outlet? Is there any?
JT Well, if there is any particular assembly you are alluding to, or meeting which has had part in it in an active way, I would say they were responsible to express their judgment of it, but, is the person in the midst of that [p. 212] assembly?
GA No. He is outside.
JT Therefore, it is not a direct responsibility, except in a personal way, that if you had had part in it you would have to judge the thing in your own soul. Of course, you are saying now that the assembly has had part in it too, which is peculiar, but the question now is whether the whole thing has been dealt with anywhere where the person is.
AJG If every individual who has had part in it has judged himself would not that clear the assembly?
JT I would think so, if the thing is fastened on to him, but then what we are speaking of now as to the ways of God raises a very wide and important question, because the Reformation brought to an end the whole Catholic system, judged it in a certain sense, in Germany or in England, we might say, but there was no attempt to deal with the thing judicially, except in separating, and that is what happened later in the great revival in which we have part, the matter of separation. That is the only way in which the brethren could have got clear of it at that time, and so that goes on now; the only way we can get clear of what may arise amongst us is to separate, unless we can pronounce a judgment before God in a collective sense, and that can be done too.
Rem I think our brother had in his mind that there may be concern as to the fact that leaven may still be working in the company.
JT Well, that is a question of each finding out. It is very hard to say much on that because the person is not there, unless you single out persons that have been specially involved in the matter.
WSS Would the reference in 2 Corinthians 7: 11 be a help in the matter? The apostle says, “Ye have proved yourselves to be pure in the matter”.
JT Just so, he uses the word vengeance. At the same time, we have to allow for another thing, that the apostle was tenderly dealing with the Corinthians, but there was a danger of much more pending if he were dealing with the real offenders. He says, “Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled”, 2 Corinthians 10: 6. That is, at that time the apostle carefully and graciously waited on the Corinthians until their obedience was fulfilled. And that is the point now, whether it is in Sydney or any other place, what the general state of the meeting may be, but he had in readiness to avenge all disobedience. It has to be avenged in the apostolic sense. We have no apostles but we have the assembly. The Spirit of God is with us, and we can do it in the assembly by refusing certain persons.
FW Does the action in 2 Thessalonians 3: 6 require the convening of the assembly?
JT It is not a question of withdrawal, but of shrinking from him, not regarding him as unfit for fellowship, but regarding him as a brother.
FW I refer to it, because the question of rebuking a person may link on with such a position, as has been referred to earlier.
JT The question is, who does it?
FW But that is what we want to be clear about and get an understanding of.
JT Well, what I am saying implies that I question the whole matter of rebuking save in an assembly sense. Whatever comes up as a critical matter, must make allowance for the assembly; the assembly has some part in it, however remote it may be; we must recognise the assembly.
ELG Would you say that in a case of true repentance there is nothing to present to [p. 214] the assembly?
JT Well, if the fire has done its work, what is there to present?
FW Have you not emphasised the need for priestly discernment as to whether professed repentance is real before God?
JT Quite so.