THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (4)
[p. 215] THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (4)
JT This phrase “for the rest”, which appears at the beginning of chapter 4 is found elsewhere in the apostle’s letters. It would indicate that he had finished, so far, what was in his mind; but his mind was always open to the Spirit, and hence we have the fourth and fifth chapters after this phrase in this epistle, and undoubtedly the thought of the Lord’s coming entered into it. It not only entered into this chapter, but was in the apostle’s mind from the outset. He says, “For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep”. That is to say, he brings in that section expressly as the word of the Lord, and hence it has that character. Then at the end of chapter 4, “So encourage one another with these words”; and then in chapter 5 he tells us something else; that is to say, what related to the judgment involved in the coming of the Lord. He says, “For ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night”. Evidently they had heard something about the judgment, but the Lord’s coming for us would seem to be in his mind, and he waited for the word of the Lord as to it, the full confirmatory thought as to it. There is no doubt that he would encourage us as to the idea of a word from the Lord, but we are dealing now with the Scriptures, with inspiration. The apostle makes a difference in 1 Corinthians 7 between what he might say himself and what he received directly by inspiration, so that he has clearly in mind that we should be impressed by what he says here in chapter 4 as to the Lord’s coming for us, and all that enters into it as preparatory to that great event.
EBMcC [p. 216] Would you say that verses 12 and 13 of chapter 3 would have that in mind? You have spoken of completion and here we have, “In order to the confirming of your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints”.
JT It is one of the references to the Lord’s coming, a subject which is found prominently in each chapter of this epistle. To confirm that, we have in chapter 1, verse 10, “To await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath”; and then in chapter 2, verse 19, “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting? are not ye also before our Lord Jesus at his coming?”. That is the complete thought as to their being ready; “for ye are our glory and joy”; and then in the end of chapter 3, verses 12 and 13, “But you, may the Lord make to exceed and abound in love toward one another, and toward all, even as we also towards you, in order to the confirming of your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints”. The same thought, that is, the Lord’s coming, is in chapter 4 and we have it also in chapter 5 that He comes “as a thief by night”. But as we were saying chapter 4 is perhaps the most important of Paul’s references to the Lord’s coming.
HH You would say that the rapture makes the appearing possible. I mean, the Lord necessarily comes for the saints before they can come out with Him.
JT He must come first, in order that we should come out with Him. That makes this passage in chapter 4 so important.
Ques Would “an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God” suggest the irresistibility of divine power to accomplish things [p. 217] quickly, so that at the end of the dispensation we are all together as they were at the beginning of the dispensation in the Acts?
JT Well, the Lord is aiming at that in the revival that we are in now. Undoubtedly He has in mind that it should go on to the end, hence the strong word to Philadelphia in Revelation 3: 11, “I come quickly”. That letter to Philadelphia has evidently in mind to touch the assembly. The words ‘thee’, and ‘thou’, and so forth, are to touch the assembly, the remnant as we sometimes say, as if it were the whole assembly, because it is so really in the Lord’s mind. The passage referred to is Revelation 3: 9 - 11: “Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. Then, “I come quickly, hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown”. Then all that follows that down to verse 13 is to emphasise the great features that will follow our translation. That is, “He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out”; these are very comforting words for those who have to go out much; “and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name”. So that what we have in verses 9 to 11 must precede what we have in 1 Thessalonians 4, the coming of the Lord Himself, as Scripture says, “But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep, to the end that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no [p. 218] hope. For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. So encourage one another with these words.)” There is no plainer statement as to the Lord’s coming than that, and it should be a great comfort to the assembly throughout the dispensation.
JE Would you say that every divine intervention is accompanied by the word of the Lord, which seems to have a specific bearing upon a certain matter at any given time, in contrast to the word of God which seems more general?
JT That is something to be noted, I am sure. There is a word in 1 Corinthians 15: 51 which might bear on what we are saying. Paul says, “Behold I tell you a mystery”; he is alluding to the raising of the saints at the Lord’s coming.
HH In that same chapter we have, “the firstfruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ’s at his coming”. Would you speak of that as the rapture?
JT I would think so. Then the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2: 1, may be compared with that, “Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled ... as that the day of the Lord is present”. So that the two epistles speak of the Lord’s coming in a very striking way, but this one particularly so.
[p. 219] PHH Would you say a little more about the expression “in the word of the Lord”. Does that refer to the necessity and rightness of the word at that particular time?
JT The title Lord would mean that He is here administratively all the time. It is a word that conveys the authority He can apply at any time, but this would be the supreme thought of His action; that is to say, He is coming for His people.
AJG Would it be right to think that all who have died in faith are raised at this moment of which we have read, yet this epistle presents it particularly from an assembly viewpoint; that is, it is the Lord Himself claiming His assembly for Himself.
JT Quite so. It says, “an assembling shout”, showing that it is an immediate thought.
Ques Is there a certain designed tenderness in the use of the name Jesus in verse 14? It is not Lord there.
JT I am sure that is right, because it is an affectionate term, the way He is regarded in special affection by His own, ‘Lord Jesus’ is similar, carrying with it the authority which is spoken of, but ‘Jesus’ is an affectionate term and really personal. There is a certain tenderness in being put to sleep by Jesus. One has often thought that Stephen would illustrate it. He said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”, and having said that, he fell asleep.
Rem At the time of his greatest affliction he saw Jesus in heaven.
JT Quite so.
AED Would you say a word as to that expression, “Asleep through Jesus”, as in contrast to “the dead in Christ”?
JT “The dead in Christ shall rise first”; that is a question of the order of things in the government of God, but entering into the administration of the [p. 220] Lord Jesus as to His own. It is a more official expression than “asleep through Jesus”.
Ques Are not similar distinctions made in Romans 8: 11? “But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. Does not the thought of the Christ extend towards the saints?
JT It does, and as I was saying, the expression there, and here, has reference to what we might call the official side of this great matter of the raising of the dead, that God has everything in order, and it is not simply Jesus, but Christ and the dead.
CFI Who would be covered by the expression “the dead in Christ”?
JT I suppose all the sleeping saints; “the firstfruits, Christ; then those that are Christ’s at his coming”, 1 Corinthians 15: 23.
CFI Would it cover those who died in the Old Testament period back to Adam, those who died in faith?
JT I think it would include them all. The dead in Christ, I think, would include all who are His: “Those that are Christ’s at his coming”. There would have to be a segregation of course, as to them, because there are some who do not form the assembly, and I suppose this is what you had in mind. The Lord will segregate, to use that word conveniently; there will be a segregation of them, but then the Lord will know what to do on that point, even as to those who were lost as spoken of in Matthew 18: 10, 11; that is, little children; they are all secured. He has given Himself for those who are lost. He came to save that which was lost; that includes, I should think, such as children. That has to be regarded by us, for God in His infinite wisdom and care ensures that all are secured, and the Lord, of [p. 221] course, will be the administrator of everything. John 3: 35 says, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”. So the segregation of all these will be in His hands and they will be taken care of. Those that are mentioned as having died in faith become a peculiar class, and they would begin with Abel, I would think; that is to say those who are spoken of in Hebrews 11.
FW Would there be a distinction between “they that are Christ’s”, and those who have died in Christ? Does not the latter involve possession of the Spirit?
JT I am not prepared to say much as to any distinction between “they that are Christ’s” and “the dead in Christ”. It was in the mind of God, to place everything in the hands of the Son, and Abraham saw His day. There must be some way in which he acquired a knowledge of Christ, because from the outset faith began to act, before it is mentioned. The Spirit of God mentions it in Hebrews so that we might have it in mind that it was known.
PL So that He was the Spirit vitally of all that preceded Him actually. I was thinking of Noah (1 Peter 3: 18 - 20).
JT Quite so, “The Spirit of Christ which was in them”, 1 Peter 1: 11.
WSS “And these all, having obtained witness through faith, did not receive the promise, God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us”. Hebrews 11: 39, 40. Does that help?
JT It does, because we must allow that Christ was in the mind of God, to become incarnate; “In the roll of the book it is written of me”, He said to God. It was in the mind of God, and nothing was done without Him, “by whom also he made the worlds”, I think we do well to recognise that the whole matter is in His hand. Then as to the administration [p. 222] of these things, the segregation of the different families, all will be in His hands too. It is said that every family is named of the Father, and Christ must come into the administrative position to name things and carry out the thought of God as to them.
RHG Is that why it is said in verse 17, “And thus we shall be always with the Lord”. That is Jehovah there, is it not, the “the” is in brackets?
JT It would have to be a question of understanding; it may be Jehovah sometimes, but only seldom, but “the Lord” is what is official. God has made Jesus Lord and Christ. That is what He is officially, and refers to administrative authority.
GRD Is it not a matter of His power here, the power of the Lord?
JT It is, but then it is more than that, because it is a question of the assembly, and that is the thing that is before us now and should be, too, “For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus”. That is saying that God does it, and it is to bring out God in His supremacy, yet not setting aside the fact that the administration of everything is in the hand of the Lord. John 3: 35, says, “The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand”, so here it says God will bring those with Him. All this would instruct the saints at Thessalonica, that it is a matter of God, that He would bring them with Jesus.
JE You have stressed the thought elsewhere that no other family is being formed in this dispensation. Would you include the infants that are taken before reaching the age of responsibility in the formation of the assembly?
JT Well, the word God has to be provided for in all this. He is the Ruler of the universe, which goes far beyond anything that we know, and so as I said before, Christ came to save that which was lost,
[p. 223] such as children. He came to seek too as Luke 19: 10 points out, but when the word ‘save’ is used and not the word ‘seek’ as in Matthew 18: 11, I would say that those who are children are included. We have to leave that with God, and we can well afford to, because God is sovereign, and so much has to be done by Him; that is what is meant, I think, here, “For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus”. They are not to be overlooked, but it is not necessary to speak of others. They are not going to be overlooked. It is a question of God. His supremacy is in mind.
JE But you would guard against the thought of another family, would you?
JT Yes, at the present time and in the sense of faith. But what I am speaking of now is not a question of faith, but what “the lost” are, and what the rights of God are in His creation; and that will involve what has been existent in the East, for instance in Asia. There has been little or nothing in Asia, but there must be something in a secret way as to God in the myriads there. We can only leave it with God, because “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18: 25), and in Hebrews 12, we have come to “God, the judge of all”. He is in that system of the things to which we have come.
JS Would you make it clear why it says that God will bring with Him? Is ‘God’ an official title?
JT The word ‘God’ is official. It is a question of what He is in the universe, outside of what we know, because we do not know everything. We do not know much about angels; we do not know much about the age of the earth, or about the time mentioned in the first of Genesis; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. God did that.
WSS “The hidden things belong to Jehovah our God; but the revealed ones are ours and our children’s for ever”, Deuteronomy 29: 29.
JT Yes, that is so.
AED Is the expression, twice repeated, “We the living”, intended to focus our minds on what is immediately before the apostle, so that we should not be diverted by matters that are too great for us?
JT That is so. It is very wise, too, not to be diverted into things too great for us, and there are things too great for us. We are to be concerned only with what is revealed, hence what can we say about the governing of the world? There is much that we know nothing of, but God knows; as Paul says, “Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows”, 2 Corinthians 12: 3. It is the supremacy of God in knowledge as in all else.
PL “He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth”, Isaiah 40: 22.
JT Yes, just so.
Ques Would the expression, “trump of God” suggest the assertion of all the rights of God in Christ?
JT I suppose so. The word ‘trump’ there would be an allusion to movement, as of a camp. It is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15: 52 as the last trumpet, a well known military allusion. The trump of God would therefore be a question of some great movement; the movement of those who form the assembly, I would say.
PHH There is nothing said here about the living being changed. That is mentioned in Corinthians, but not here.
JT If it is mentioned in Corinthians it fits into this, does it not?
PHH I was wondering if you would say a little about it. It says in 1 Corinthians 15: 51, “I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed”. Is there a reason why the word, ‘changed’ is not mentioned here?
JT I think it is probably more comprehensive there than what we have here. The word ‘change’ implies what will be necessary, for in Christ “there is no male and female”, Galatians 3: 28. That must be taken account of, the sovereign action of God to exclude male and female in the resurrection, so “that world and the resurrection” is a great matter in the divine counsels and secrets, and we have to make allowance for the things we do not understand. So 1 Corinthians 15: 50 says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom”, and we have to understand that, how that will come about. Much must happen, so that it is no longer a question of flesh and blood in the kingdom of God; there is to be a change, and the change would exclude many things, and bring in just what God has in mind to stand forever.
Rem The scripture goes on to say, “For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality”.
JT Yes. Must needs.
LPM Does this confirm what you have already spoken of as to the matter of divine intervention? This is what God does here, and Christ is coming for us. Is that in accord with what you had in mind?
JT Yes; it is an intervention. The first word used for God in Scripture is plural.
JP-sn Does the matter of hope that you referred to yesterday bear on all this?
JT Well, it is found in the second epistle, but it is not found as it is in the first epistle, In the second epistle we have in chapter 2: 16, “But our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us, and given us eternal consolation and good hope by grace, encourage your hearts, and establish you in every good work and word”. The [p. 226] word hope there is linked up with the great general thought of God, that hope belongs to the intervention of God for us. He has given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace. It is a question of what God has done in the gospel, but then that is a question of the general thought of God, as is evident also in the first nine verses of 1 Corinthians. These thoughts have to be worked out, because they were far from being true of the Corinthians in their then state. That is, they were divided amongst themselves and so on, so that we are to learn to read things in the abstract, and where we get them in that sense, they have to be worked out. So here, the idea of hope has to be worked out, because it is a great general thought as brought out in the gospel, but in the first chapter it is there. It reads, “We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you at our prayers, remembering unceasingly your work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father”. That is there subjectively worked out in actual fact.
Ques Is there a particular emphasis on the hope of the rapture? Paul has said “that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no hope”, and he goes on to speak of the Lord’s coming for us. Would that be a particular feature of the hope?
JT Well, I think it would be, as it says in 1 Timothy 1: 1, “Christ Jesus our hope”.
Ques You were going to say something about the first mention of the name of God, were you not?
JT Yes, it is a plural word, and it bears out what we are saying as to the supremacy of God in all these matters. The word in Genesis 1 is Elohim, the plural of Eloah, ‘the Supreme’. It is Deity, God in the absolute, but Elohim is plural. It is a question of power, but power in One who is supreme, and therefore as all these things are mentioned, what [p. 227] do we know about them? For instance, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and empty”. All that is more or less beyond us, only that the word ‘empty’ is touched on later in the Scriptures. We know little or nothing of the vastness of it and the real condition of what we call the earth during all that long space of time. We have just to say we do not know, but God knows. God knows everything.
PHH Do you mean that this word for God being mentioned from the outset, provides in us a worshipful approach to all these matters, including the bringing of the saints with Christ?
JT Well, I thought that. God is God, you know, and “God is love”. We must remember that all these things that we have mentioned as under His hand are attributable to the fact that He is love, even the lake of fire is attributable to that. God must have things that way; how could it be otherwise? how could wickedness be let loose? A lake suggests restriction, the idea of judgment is restricted.
HJM As to the coming of the Lord being a divine intervention, is it instructive to see that in 1 Corinthians 15 and in the passage we are reading, it is a military intervention and the trumpet is mentioned? Is that to establish our souls in the divine supremacy and the divine triumphs in the face of all the hosts of the enemy?
JT Yes, and if there is movement, nothing can interfere with us. When the trumpet is blown it is a question of movement; the last trump is a final one and we shall all be caught up to be with Christ. It is a question of movement and God is over it; it is the trump of God.
JNG In the expression used of the saints being caught up together, is there any reference to the way in which the Lord Jesus went up?
JT The word “caught up” is to be noted here; “together” too is a word that belongs to christianity peculiarly.
EESL The man child was caught up (Revelation 12: 5).
JT Quite so, “Caught up to God and to his throne”. That is to say, He is under God’s hand, and we might say, Where is He? Well, He is with God, He is out of the way, and the devil cannot get near Him any more than he could get near Him when He was here, watched over by Joseph and Mary. He was protected, but now He is caught up to be where God is, so that He is under God’s protection.
GA Why does the apostle use the word, “The Lord himself”? The word ‘Himself’ seems an almost characteristic word of the epistle appearing in the verse we are now dealing with, “The Lord himself”, and then earlier we noted it, and also later in the second epistle. Would you help us as to that very touching feature?
JT The Lord Himself — that is to bring out the personal side, I think. He could send the Spirit, of course, also the angels, but He comes Himself. It is to emphasise the tender feelings He has and His personal interest in us.
CHG Would you say a word as to the archangel’s voice?
JT The word ‘arch’ refers to the graded dignities that are in heaven, which God has a right to order. I suppose the word used is to distinguish certain angels. Gabriel and Michael are distinguished from others. Gabriel is a priestly angel, and Michael, I would say, is a military angel, but they are both distinguished; possibly Satan himself had high rank in the early ages of God’s reign and doings. God is entitled to give these [p. 229] ranks.
HH You would say Jesus comes alone, nobody comes with Him.
JT The Lord Himself. Quite so; whereas in the next epistle, referring to His appearing, the Lord is said to come “with the angels of his power”.
Rem It says in Jude, verse 9, “But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him, but said, The Lord rebuke thee”.
JT That would confirm what we are saying and that the devil may have a rank equal to those of Michael or Gabriel, and they recognise that. That is what I think would be meant.
EB Would you say a word as to the Father raising the Lord Jesus by His glory, doing that by Himself; and the great power that seems to be involved here. “Archangel’s voice and with trump of God” show the great power that will be present.
JT We do well to meditate on the first day of the week, what it was to God, and why Christ should have been three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. What it must have been to God that His Son should be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth! What a time of waiting it was for Him, speaking reverently, for the moment to arrive when He should raise Him!
JW Is the assembling shout something unique in respect of the Lord?
JT The assembling shout would mean that He is thinking of the assembly, so we have to think of the assembly, for the word ‘assembly’ enters into the shout. We would not know it perhaps if we heard it, if we were not told, but we will hear it, and we will understand that we are involved, because we belong to the assembly and that is what is specially in mind here. Other families are involved too, but it is specially the assembly here.
[p. 230] Rem So that this ministry would draw out our hearts to Christ personally, rather than our looking forward to the event, as a mere event.
JT That is what I should say. It is the Lord’s own voice that we shall hear and the Lord’s own face that we shall see.
JP-sn So that the “Lord himself” would link up with Ephesians 5: 25 - 27, “... has delivered himself up ... that he might present the assembly to himself”. It is what is personally for Himself in the assembly that He claims here.
JT He presents it to Himself a glorious assembly without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. It is presented to Himself, and is all for Him.
JE Does not the Lord in the Supper really acquaint us with the idea of being rallied to Himself? This assembling shout is something which we have become accustomed to in the principle of it.
JT Yes, because the word in Acts 20, “We being assembled”, is really the same sort of thing. The idea of assembling is in the Lord’s supper, but it will also be in the coming of the Lord for us. It is still the saints and the same persons too.
AJG This moment will be the first time that the whole assembly will be seen intact.
JT Very good. What a great thought it is!
RRT Does this word ‘assembling’ involve the end of the dispensation which is characterised by the saints being scattered abroad, that now we are to be assembled to be always with the Lord.
JT Quite so; “He should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad”, John 11: 52.
WHF In chapter 3 we are told that the apostle sent Timothy to encourage the saints. Is this feature in operation if we encourage one another as in the chapter before us?
JT “So encourage one another with these words”. It is the same thought. There is a lot of encouragement in this present meeting, a great deal of encouragement, so it is a question of circulating this encouragement to the brethren elsewhere who have not been here, telling them what we have enjoyed together, and it will encourage them. God is said to be the God of all encouragement.
WHF For what reason is the word “we” emphasised in verses 15 and 17?
JT That is very interesting. “That we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep”. Paul is including himself in what he is saying and of course he is to be included.
Ques Would that show that it was not a distant hope for Paul?
JT Just so, he considered himself as having part in it.
RHH Would you say a word about the transforming of our bodies of humiliation into conformity to His body of glory “according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself”, Philippians 3: 21?
JT I thought of that when we were touching on 1 Corinthians 15; that is to say, “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom”. We were touching on that just a moment ago, and Philippians 3 comes into mind as to what is involved in the change; but 1 John 3: 2 says, “What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. That I understand to convey that the Lord is not exactly in the same form and condition in which He was while here in the flesh for the forty days. John has in mind what He will be when He comes, when we shall see Him and shall be like Him, and of course that involves a change in us, that our body [p. 232] of humiliation is to be transformed into conformity to Christ’s body of glory. That implies that we shall be like Him as He is in His body of glory; there will be no discrepancy at all in that sense between ourselves and the Lord. As to what He was here below, in Mark 16: 12 it says “he was manifested in another form”. We have to see that that was not His body of glory, and yet see that there is mystery connected with the Lord’s own form after He rose. But when the final thought comes in in Philippians 3 we are to be changed by the same “power which he has even to subdue all things to himself”. We shall be changed into conformity to His body of glory, which is a matter to stimulate us as to the greatness of the thoughts of God as to us.
FW Does all this matter of hope, as to which he says in verse 18, “So encourage one another”, and then in verse 11 of chapter 5, “Wherefore encourage one another, and build up each one the other, even as also ye do”, have in mind the perfecting of the saints while here before the rapture actually takes place? I am thinking of verse 23 of chapter 5.
JT I think that is good because our reading today, all our readings indeed, have in mind to show that the Lord is always thinking of preparation for our translation.
PL So that if the assembly’s departure is in such a militant setting as this, the love that would finally assure this would support us at the present time in the church militant.
JT Quite so. But when we go up with Him, there is no militancy in that at all, although the military thought is there in the last trump undoubtedly. But then as to what we have already said as to the change, it must come; it says, “Must put on immortality” and so forth. Then the condition of the millennial earth will mean that men are in [p. 233] flesh and blood here, and there must be change to bring all into accord with the thoughts of God.
Ques I was going to ask whether when the assembly is translated, we enter upon what is eternal in its character, but there will still be on earth a period to be worked out when corruptibility is still extant; and does not that explain some of the references, in the millennial setting, to the Lord being pierced; “They shall look on me whom they pierced”, for instance? (Zechariah 12: 10).
JT Yes, there are statements of that kind in the prophets and elsewhere and they have to be understood accordingly; but as you said, there is much to be done from God’s side; God has to do it. The millennial earth will be an earth of men and women in flesh and blood as we are, although there will be a certain change, but the Scripture says, that there will be old men there, and old women, sitting in the streets of Jerusalem, and there will be boys and girls playing in the streets (Zechariah 8: 4, 5). Well, all that has to be understood, and what God will do. But why should God not have a right to that sort of thing being effected in spite of all the devil would do against Him, and to have that state of things for a thousand years? The period “a thousand years” is undoubtedly significant, it is a long enough time, longer than anybody lived even in antediluvian times.
DJM Does the house which is from heaven correspond? “A house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”, 2 Corinthians 5: 1.
JT Well, it is not houses, you notice, it is just a house, it is one general thought. We are looking for that, for our house which is from heaven, that is our hope, although we are still in the flesh. We are liable to die too, for we are in mortal bodies, but even if we die we have this thought, that we have a house which is eternal [p. 234] in the heavens.
FW Why is it that in the midst of all these glorious thoughts Paul introduces this matter of, “When they may say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them”? Why is that terrible state of things brought in here?
JT I think it is for the professors of christianity that are not real. That is what is in mind here in the fifth chapter. I am just wondering whether we should not dwell a little longer on this great chapter, the fourth chapter. That is to say, what we have touched on, that it is a matter of change, because it involves the idea of sex, as it says in Galatians 3: 28, “There is no male and female”.
HO Is full correspondence with the thoughts of God concerning Christ the thought in this instruction, and our being ready when the Lord comes?
JT Just so, we are to be conformed to His body of glory, and that is full correspondence with the divine thought, because the body of glory of Christ is what He is to be eternally.
Ques Do you think that might be why the Lord Jesus Christ is mentioned in Philippians 3: 20? We read in the Scripture about being “present with the Lord” and “with Christ”, and “asleep through Jesus”; but the apostle speaks of finality in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ, in the transformation of our body into conformity to His own body of glory.
JT It shows that He has that power and that we are the subjects of it in that immediate matter. It is the same power by which He subdues all things to Himself.
PHH As to the change of the body, it is spoken of relative to the Lord, but in 2 Corinthians 5: 1, “We have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens”. Does that fit in with your thought of God taking command of the whole thing?
JT Just so. It is ‘house’, the singular, not houses. It is a question of what God will do. He requires that we should have a building from God. Not that the building comes down as you might say, by itself; it is there, eternal in the heavens.
Ques Does this change to which you have referred involve what is moral, or is it connected with our bodily condition?
JT I think it would mean, in the main our bodily condition. It is a physical matter because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so that the physical side must be taken up; and I would say that the number of years involved in the millennium, one thousand, are to display what God can do, because He has a certain satisfaction in defeating the devil in anything, but especially in the matter of man. What satisfaction the devil must have had in the terrible moral conditions of humanity, especially in the East, and now in the West! Well, God is showing that He can have a world, that world and the resurrection from among the dead, in which they neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they are equal to angels. That is something I think to be considered.
WHF The Lord Jesus refers in that passage to God as the God of the living.
JT He brings that in as showing the stupidity of the Sadducees, that they erred not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. It is a question of God in all these things, and His power can bring about anything that is needed for the establishment of His counsels. Therefore the Sadducees’ idea, the question of whose wife she should be in the resurrection, showed they were ignorant of the truth of God, and indeed that word is brought in in 1 Corinthians 15: 34, “Some are ignorant of God”, a remarkable phrase. It is an important thing to have it before us that we are not ignorant of God, because we know [p. 236] God; but then there are things we do not know as to God. We have to leave those, but in 1 Corinthians 15 what we do know refers to the resurrection particularly.
AED The passage that has been referred to in 2 Corinthians 5, is followed by the word, “Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God”.
JT Just so.
AJD Is it to show that the treasure is to be translated into an eternal setting, the building from God eternal in the heavens? While the treasure is in earthen vessels at the present time, it is going to be in an eternal setting.
JT The treasure is the testimony we have for God here, and it is a question of what we can carry on in and keep, in spite of the fact that we are in earthen vessels, meaning that we are fragile; we are in fragile breakable vessels, but still the treasure is kept by the power of God.
CPP What is the thought of glory in connection with the body?
JT I suppose it would be in contrast to what Christ was down here. “His visage was so marred more than any man”, Isaiah 52: 14. The mind is directed to Christ and all He is coming into.
WSS Would John 14 be appropriate? “I am coming again and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be”. You spoke earlier of the verse, “If we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again”, and the suggestion was made that that would touch our affections. Jesus is speaking in John 14, and says, “I am coming again and shall receive you unto myself”.
JT It is a question of what has been demonstrated as His power. “If we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again”, is a question of our faith as to His power; that that will go through, and when He comes we shall be raised and changed.
[p. 237] Rem In our experience in assembly privilege, as knowing something of the presence of the Lord, we are introduced into what is an eternal setting, not a millennial one.
JT Just so. In the service of God you mean?
Rem I was thinking that sometimes it appears that the acme of our enjoyment seems to stand in relation to the throne and the day of display, whereas the assembly’s own peculiar portion with Christ lies in a setting that is beyond that, does it not, and the counsels of God as worked out in the assembly are touched in the power of the Spirit even now?
JT Just so, we were speaking about that on Lord’s day, that the Lord is seen in the midst of the assemblies in the beginning of Revelation; that is, the assemblies as they are down here, as they are addressed by Him in that book, but in chapter 21 the assembly is seen coming down from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. That is the great change and difference that we may come into, and it is a question of our being able to come into it and enjoy it in assembly; the Spirit of God would render us capable of that, giving us power to enjoy these great thoughts in the end of Revelation as to the assembly, because she is adorned as a bride, not a bride, but as a bride. Before that, in chapter 19, she is seen as the Lamb’s wife, but she is clothed with suitable attire, and all these scriptures are to be understood anticipatively, for the Spirit can bring them into the present for our enjoyment.
DJM Is that why it says in 2 Corinthians 5: 5, “Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit”?
JT Quite so. That chapter is of supreme importance in regard of what we have been saying, especially as to the change, because brethren are [p. 238] very vague as to how it will come about, how the millennial conditions shall disappear, that is to say those conditions that are described in the prophets. In connection with that the assembly will not be on the earth, but over it and ruling over it, because the ruling class is anticipated in the sun and the moon. The ruling class comes into the day indicated in Genesis 1. Well, if we are to be the ruling class then, we are the ruling class morally now, and hence we have supremacy. We may be killed, but still we have supremacy, and the ruling class is to stand. And so, as regards the change anticipated in 1 Corinthians 15, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, some change has to take place. That change must be a matter of God’s power, and it will involve that there will be no male and female; well, we have to understand that even already, that we rise to the thought of no male and female, no Greek and no Jew, no natural or national distinctions.
RRT In regard to that matter of no male and female, when the thought was introduced at the beginning in Genesis, it says, “Male and female created he them”. Then it is said that they were to multiply and fill the earth, these thoughts being connected with male and female. Does it indicate now that in the state which we are thinking of, such thoughts as filling the earth and multiplying do not have a place, that it will be a scene entirely filled, so that such thoughts as are connected with male and female can have no place?
JT That is what I am endeavouring to suggest to the brethren, that the great change is indicated in 1 Corinthians 15, and that a great deal has to be done, but God can do it. God can do things so quickly, in the twinkling of an eye indeed as, it says in that very chapter, so that we are to prepare ourselves for that and to anticipate the thought of [p. 239] no male and female, because the new conditions will be Christ and the assembly.
GWT Is the change in 1 Corinthians 15 seen in verse 44, “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body”, and the natural laws do not apply to the spiritual setting?
JT They do not. We shall be outside the realm of natural laws.
Ques Does the expression, “in the twinkling of an eye”, refer only to the change, or does it include the ascent?
JT I think it might include all that is involved requiring speed, and shows what God can do. We are to learn the thought of God and let it enter into our hearts as to what He is. It says, “God is a spirit”, not God was a spirit, or has a spirit, but “God is a spirit”; well, what can we know and say about that? “A spirit has not flesh and bones”, the Lord Jesus said, “as ye see me having”, but then it says, “God is a spirit”, and we have to make way for Him; it requires that we should if we are to enter into His service.
PHH Would it be right to say that the term “female” or “feminine” will apply to the assembly only, as such, in eternity?
JT Well, it looks like that. It is a matter on which one would not say too much, but we have the plain statement in Scripture, that in Christ Jesus “there is no male and female”. There are many other things said in the same chapter, Galatians 3. The subject really begins, “But, faith having come, we are no longer under a tutor; for ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus. For ye, as many as have been baptised unto Christ, have put on Christ. There is no Jew nor Greek: there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”. Well, that is to be [p. 240] understood now; it belongs to the service of God. We are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
PHH That is, you are taking the suggestion of eternal conditions, and bringing them down now into the service of God in the assembly?
JT That is right. You say, bring them down, but we are really being taken up to them. In Ephesians we are raised up into heavenly places, and that is the idea, I believe, of the service of God in its fulness, that we reach God, as God’s sons.