THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (6)
[p. 264] THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (6)
2 Thessalonians 2: 1 - 17; 2 Thessalonians 3: 6 - 18
JT The coming of the Lord for us is set out in the first epistle to the Thessalonians, we might say specifically; and the appearing of the man of sin, or whatever it may be, is specific here; and so is his formal appearing, or coming. It is thought important at this time, that the truth should be before us, that we might be specific as to it. The book of Revelation, of course, gives us formal and extensive statements as to the beast and the false prophet, and affords us information as to what gives character to the appearing of the man of sin, and leads to finality also as to it, and the book tells us as to the doom of the beast and false prophet, but here he is called the man of sin.
The beginning of chapter 2 refers to the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him. The injunction is in the main, in that sense, a sort of formal exhortation or charge to the brethren not to be deceived by anything misleading. Things are apt to be misleading, and the apostle is concerned that there should be nothing to mislead the brethren as to what must intervene, that is to say, the apostasy. “Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition”. The apostle is concerned about the day of the Lord.
PHH Would you mind saying a word about the various appellations, the day of Christ, the day of the Lord, and the day of God?
JT The “day of Christ” would be His day as doing things for God. He is the One who does things for God, who takes up things and carries them [p. 265] through, you might say, to their conclusion. In the beginning of the Acts it says, “All things which Jesus began both to do and to teach”, so that what follows refers to christianity, but the day of Christ would be a public matter. This is not necessarily judgment, but whatever might be necessary as characterising His day. There are the days of the Son of man, and such phrases as that, but the day of Christ, I would think, would refer to Him as doing things for God mediatorially. In “the day of the Lord” it is a question of His authority and supremacy.
PHH Peter speaks of the day of God being hastened.
JT He also speaks of the day of eternity, does he not?
PHH Yes “To him be glory both now and to the day of eternity”, 2 Peter 3: 18.
JT The “day of God” would, I suppose, be very much what we have already touched on as to the supremacy of God, when God is to be all in all. All these appellations point to conclusions, to the settling of matters, in certain phases, but all will be settled.
Ques Paul specifically writes about what may trouble them, saying, “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter”. Is there any present application of such matters?
JT Well, there is a well-known movement in America that says that 1914 was when Christ came, showing that there are such things in the minds of men, which, of course, are folly. Something like twelve years ago there was another day appointed, by one who had once been in touch with those walking in the truth, saying that the Lord would [p. 266] come then. But whether there is anything of this kind now, I do not know.
This is peculiar, I do not think there is any reference like this in the epistles anywhere, “Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him”. This is, of course, real fact, real expectation. But then it goes on, “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present”, I suppose it must have been some pernicious aim to disturb the saints, and mislead them as to the actual coming of the Lord. There have been terrible changes, of course, in the history of christendom, such as the fall of Rome, the French Revolution and all that, and many other such things; and not the least are the recent events in Germany, such as would disturb and distress and divert people from the real truth. It is manifestly in the apostle’s mind to make it very clear to the Thessalonians that there is such a thing as the day of the Lord, and that it will come, and that the man of sin will come too. But that is the apostasy. So that there is a guide for the saints as to these matters, because it says, “It will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition; who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God”. The matter is very explicit.
Ques Is this the opposite to the Lord Himself coming for His own? The man of sin opposes, and exalts himself, and he himself sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. One was thinking of the complete opposition to what we cherish in our hearts. The Lord Himself shall come for [p. 267] us.
JT So that the personality that is in mind is clearly indicated here, it is a real person; the man of sin is a real person.
LPM Does the reference to man and son so close together, in “the man of sin” and “the son of perdition”, imply satanic opposition to what God is working out?
JT Yes. It is to be a real man.
LPM Is the reference to son, the enemy counterfeiting in this person what God had in His mind?
PL So that Barabbas is the son of the father.
JT Just so.
Rem The Lord applies this term, son of perdition, to Judas.
JT Yes, I was thinking of that. And then there are other instances of the use of the expression ‘son’, indicating the result from some course of things.
Ques Is it to remind us that they are not only principles at work, but they are to be personified?
JT That is the idea; the word ‘son’ would be the personification of some evil. The apostle says to the man that he had to do with in Acts 13, Elymas: “Son of the devil, enemy of all righteousness; wilt thou not cease perverting the right paths of the Lord?”, and he is condemned to blindness for a season. He appeared directly to oppose the truth of Paul’s ministry, so that we get a clue as to how what the word ‘son’ stands for may appear. It may mean the personification of some line of thought or principle in opposition to the truth. The son of perdition would, of course, refer to what he is morally as begotten from beneath.
AED Would it be right to say that the principles are at work now in a variety of ways, and in the man of sin the thing will all have culminated in a pattern set together in that way?
JT Yes, and in a man, as known in history, as we [p. 268] say.
EB The two beasts that arise in Revelation 13 are two distinct persons. Are they both brought together under the description of the man of sin, or are they distinct personalities?
JT Well, we also have the word ‘antichrist’, which is equivalent to the man of sin, only that it is another term, and bears against Christ, whereas here it is more against God, and I suppose the first beast in Revelation 13 would correspond. He is supported by the second beast which would probably be his active agent or representative, so that we have the two thoughts brought together, the beast and the false prophet. The beast would take character from the devil himself, and indeed there the devil is in mind, because he is behind the whole movement. There is a trinity of evil, and everything here is included in the thought of the man of sin.
ET What is the connection between the man of sin and the system called Babylon?
JT The latter is a religious thought. It is well to bring it up here, because they are connected in the book of Revelation. Another thing has to be mentioned, and that is, that what is called Babylon is first represented in the assembly of Thyatira. That is to say, it is in the form of a woman but she appears later in a political sense. She has a political aspect, and that too gives us a clue as to the various workings of sin. The woman is undoubtedly in mind, as the religious form of evil, the mystery of evil, and has continued possibly these fifteen or eighteen hundred years, showing how masterful the thing is; it is now working out fully, and there is more or less a check on it in what is current in trade unionism. God is evidently providing a check and perhaps modifying both the elements, to relieve the saints and to make a way for us.
Ques Would you, therefore, for the encouragement of those who may fear further intimidation,
[p. 269] distinguish for us between that which restrains in verse 6, and he who restrains in verse 7?
JT I think the “he who” is the Holy Spirit; at least it is usually understood to be so, and I believe it is so; and the “that” is probably government, for which we pray rightly. God uses both these elements to relieve His saints.
Ques At the present time there seems to be a measure of conflict between the religious and the political sides, but I suppose as time goes on they will join forces, when the apostasy is fully come?
JT No doubt they will. The religious and the political have already joined forces, because the Romish system has sovereignty politically, in a very small measure, but still, it shows what is in mind. Their popish principles and working are undoubtedly contributory to all this, and in fact are represented in the woman in the book of Revelation; only that at the outset the assembly is involved; the assembly is held responsible by the Lord in His letter to Thyatira. One of the most terrible things that there is, perhaps, is the formation of that system, and yet it carries, you might say, some of the most beautiful truths, but applies them to wickedness, to what is really wicked. But then, the Spirit of God is turning us to the thought under the heading of Babylon in Revelation 17, and it is in that book that we get the full destruction of the system, and it is an eternal matter: “Her smoke goes up to the ages of ages”, Revelation 19: 3.
PHH Is it significant in this chapter to read about the apostasy, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the lawless one? Does that mean that all that is concerned has reached its height?
JT And they are known. The article indicates that they are known. There is no effort to hide them.
PHH Not merely a character of things.
JT [p. 270] No, the thing is now worked out in a person, or in persons. The apostasy, of course, is a general thought, a turning away from the truth of christianity, denying the Father and the Son, that is what it is.
AJG Is it not remarkable that God will employ the beast for the final overthrow of Babylon, and then will that, in a way, remove the last obstacle to the full development of apostasy? Babylon retains certain elements of the truth, does it not?
JT I think that is good, because we can see how it is antagonistic to bolshevism or communism, and there is a certain protection for us in that, and we may thank God for it, because it is just a check, what we might call restraint as mentioned here. There are two things that have been noticed. “And now ye know”, the apostle says in verse 6, “that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time”, and then there is “he who restrains” in verse 7. There may be the restraint of some other element, but particularly what is in mind, I believe, is the Spirit of God, and of course that would mean what we are occupied in at this present time, where the Spirit of God is operating, that we exert influence abroad, as we leave these meetings, which checks what is of the wicked one.
DJM The Spirit in that way in us? “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”.
JT That is what is meant, I am sure, which is very comforting and assuring as to what we are going on with. God is with us. But, on the other hand, we should be careful that we are not assuming to be anything else, but of the assembly.
ACSP Is it significant that in this epistle, so much is made of “our God”, or “God our Father”?
JT All that is over against what is in mind, what the devil is doing; and, of course, what is so terrible is that we are right in the midst of what is being done; that is to say, the apostasy is already [p. 271] setting in, although we can hardly say that what is called “strong delusion” has begun, but still the apostasy is current, it is going on, and it is finding its support in what is called the system of trade unionism, one of the most extraordinary things that has arisen, affecting the Lord’s people very widely.
Rem So that whilst we cannot speak of the strong delusion in a general sense, it seems to be working out that way governmentally in certain quarters; God having been refused, there seems to be that element there.
JT Yes. Trade unionism has become a system employing violence, of wickedness in that sense, systematic wickedness. We may as well face this thing, because we have to do with it. God will be with us in seeking to maintain what is right, and in suffering too, because suffering is involved in it.
ENJ Does Gideon help, in having to meet Midian, Amalek, and the children of the east, in relation to the spread of apostasy? I was linking the children of the east with what is spreading over christendom, but it is met by Gideon.
JT Very good; met by what we are going on with today, you mean. That is to say, as we adhere to the mind of God, what is according to God. God is with us; and no doubt there is more of the east than many are aware of that has penetrated into the west, but the west is in mind in what we are dealing with, and it is a terrible thing that the pending judgment is towards the west. So the Lord tells us that it should be “as the days of Noe” (Matthew 24: 37), meaning that it will be similar in extent.
JP-sn You spoke of trade unionism. We cannot allow for trade unionism with those that are going on in the light of the assembly.
JT Well, that is clear. They are opposites. One is concerned about it, because it is to be met [p. 272] with almost everywhere, and modifications of it perhaps, are brought forward, and excuses, but the thing is as plain as possible, as to what it is essentially.
AED You just referred to the matter of Noah. This morning you said we were to pay attention, not only to Noah, but to his ministry. Had you in mind to say anything more to us as to Noah’s ministry?
JT Well, he was a preacher of righteousness, which is a very important ministry, and it is the effects of ministry that check all this wickedness that is current, that we are speaking of. There is something that God is using in those who are ministering the truth, and we can, therefore, be emboldened in going on with what we are doing, because it is checking all these things. It is the very thing that is involved in these verses that I read; that is to say, verse 6 — “And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains” — the word “restrains” is used in both cases — “he who restrains now until he be gone”. The “until he be gone” clearly indicates the departure of the saints, because the Spirit will go with them, I would judge.
LPM Would you say a word as to the mystery of lawlessness, and its present bearing on all these matters?
JT I think it involves what we have said already, the system called Romanism. It is a mysterious system, in that it began early in the truth, in the apostle’s ministry, and the Thessalonians had been made acquainted with it; and now the apostle is confirming all that he had said to them; and it is very suggestive that the word ‘mystery’ is applied, because it is secretive in the sense of priestcraft, monkery, and so forth. They are all secretive, and people are affected by it without understanding [p. 273] it.
AJG Is it suggested in the parable of the leaven in Matthew 13, “Which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened”?
JT Very good. And another allusion, I would say, is in Zechariah 5. Two women are mentioned as taking the ephah, and carrying it away to Shinar, and setting it on its own base. “This is Wickedness”, it says, and no doubt it is alluding prophetically to what we are speaking of. It has its own base, it is identified with Babylon, with Shinar.
HW In Revelation 17 the name of the woman is “Mystery, great Babylon, the mother of the harlots”.
JT How the idea of mystery attaches to it is perhaps not so clear; but it is important now, as it is before us, that we should examine it a little; it is timely here, because all these things are around us, and God is looking to us, because He has His own instrumentality; and that instrumentality is the assembly, and it cannot be overcome, as the Lord says, “And hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. The attack is against the assembly.
EB Would sons of light in any degree stand over against this element of mystery, and the darkness of the confessional, and so on?
JT Sons of light; you are referring to the previous epistle. It shows that we have the means of resistance in this very fact that believers are sons of light. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief, for all ye are sons of light and sons of day”, 1 Thessalonians 5: 4. It corresponds with what we have already remarked as to the word ‘son’, that sons are said to be the outcome of things such as light and darkness.
Ques Would Paul’s reference to the assembly as “the pillar and base of the truth”, suggest that that is our own salvation? As the wickedness has [p. 274] its own base, the truth has its own base here in the assembly?
JT Quite so, showing what the assembly is, and what God has in it. It is a system really, a divine system maintained by the power of the Spirit of God, but maintained at the same time within certain principles.
LPM And mystery attaching to it?
JT Well, quite. It is called definitely the mystery.
CFI Is the love of the truth important? Those who come under judgment “have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved”.
JT That is a thing to be noticed. It comes in later, showing that this chapter is working out the full thought of wickedness, centring in the man of sin; and then that God is sending strong delusion, showing that it is judicial, and that they all might be condemned; and showing that the whole of christendom is involved in this terrible judgment.
CFI Would it suggest that the truth had been made known to them in some sense, and had been refused?
JT Exactly. That is just it. The condemnation is that; so it says, referring to the man of sin first, “whose coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth”. What God is aiming at here is christendom, really, those who have received the truth; and it says here, “in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this reason God sends to them a working of error, that they should believe what is false, that all might be judged who have not believed the truth, but have found pleasure in unrighteousness”. That has hardly formally come in yet; that is, the strong delusion, but in principle [p. 275] it may have come. Certain things are being allowed to proceed, and if people are unrighteous, let them be unrighteous still. God is not going to change matters. He is not going to give any relief at all.
ET In Revelation 17, it is the system that is charged as such, but here in the verses alluded to, and also in the first chapter, persons themselves are in mind. Would that be intended to stimulate us in what has been before us, in relation to speaking to men, such as street preaching?
JT I would go with that. And then the Lord’s words as to the truth, He says that the Spirit will guide us into all the truth, and hence the great importance of these meetings that we are having, that there is the unfolding of the truth in them, opportunity for the brethren in conversing together to get a clear view of the truth, and try to get all the truth, for the word is “all the truth”. We should not be satisfied with less than all the truth.
HB Would you say that John, in his epistle, gives us what is preservative in that way, when he says, “If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father”?
JT Quite so. And then John’s epistles to the fathers, and the young men, and the little children, to confirm us in the things we are going on with, and they are to guard us from the world. But he writes to the fathers “because ye have known him that is from the beginning”. There is a personal knowledge of Christ through the ministry, the Spirit of God making Him known to us.
Ques Would John’s line involve that which is inward, whereas, whilst this would include that, we have the word “So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold fast the instructions which ye have been taught”? Would that include the outward order, the administrative side of things, as regards the assembly?
JT [p. 276] Well, the fathers are written to by John: “I have written to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning”. These meetings give opportunity for the Lord to be apprehended in His administrative service amongst us. The assembly remains, the Spirit remains, and the Lord remains; and as we give Him opportunity on these occasions. He shows Himself amongst us. I think one is not going too far to say that He shows Himself, the Lord shows Himself in certain ways, and, therefore, the fatherly quality is developed by the apprehension of Christ, so that we know Him.
WSS Is sonship the great issue in what is before us? I was thinking of the system here, which is finalised in the son of perdition, typified in Barabbas, son of the father, and in Thyatira, which the Lord, as Son of God, addresses. I was thinking of it in contrast to the ministry, which leads us to the knowledge of the Son of God, and the sons of light being here present?
JT Very important. It is to be noted that the Lord addresses Himself to Thyatira as the Son of God, and I suppose one thing involved in that is that it is a question of the house, the idea of God’s house. Christ is over God’s house as Son, and Thyatira, I mean to say the woman alluded to there, the assembly as such, is recognised. The Lord recognises her, but He says, “thou sufferest that woman Jezebel”. The Lord challenges her in that respect, that she is guilty, and therefore the assembly, in her public character is involved, for she is allowing that woman Jezebel; she is allowing her in some sense, whatever sense that would be. I would say the features of the Church of England and other such systems take on the character of Jezebel in some sense. The assembly is discredited in that she allows it. It is really ‘thy wife — Jezebel’. That is to [p. 277] say, the bond is a sort of marital thing, and the system of the Church of England is a national system, perhaps the only fully national one now, but it is a national system, and it stands in relation to the whole empire, but only England itself actually. It does not include Scotland or Ireland. While, on the one hand, we are thankful for it, for there is some maintenance of the truth in it, yet on the other hand, it is weakening many true believers; many are caught by it, and the Lord is raising the question, I believe, in that way with it, as addressing Himself to them as the Son of God. It is the power He has to deal with it, that is, He is over the house, He is over the house of God.
WSS Would you say that the teaching of Jezebel would rob the saints of the inheritance which is theirs as sons?
JT Well, it would. Then there is the systematic idea of the thing. “These things says the Son of God”. He is raising the question with Thyatira as to her having an affiliation with that sort of thing; whether it is in the Church of England or the Church of Rome. Of course, in the Church of Rome it is out and out, but even the Church of England is impaired by it too, because the same sort of things are carried on.
AM Would you say what Sardis and Laodicea represent, for they go on to the end, do they not?
JT Sardis represents Protestantism, I would say, and Laodicea is more imitation, like what open brethrenism is, I think, without being too personal. I believe Laodicea is imitation of what is derived from Philadelphia; it is the effect of Philadelphia, only not real, not characterised by the truth, by reality and faithfulness. So the Lord addresses Himself to them there as “the faithful and true witness”. They are not true in the witness they are [p. 278] maintaining.
AM I was thinking of that awful expression, “I will spue thee out of my mouth”. Does it bear on what we are reading in this epistle?
JT Well, of course, spuing is the repudiation of what is nauseous, but this here is more direct judgment. Jezebel is alluded to later in the book of Revelation in a political form. In the early part, that is, in the letters to the assemblies she is viewed as identified with the assembly; but in the later references, she is simply out and out in the world as a political element.
CSK Does the Lord challenge us when He says, “All the assemblies shall know that I am he that searches the reins and the hearts”? “I am he”; would that come in here?
JT Well, just so, He is the Son of God. He has not yet given up the assembly, because Thyatira runs on to the end, just as Laodicea does, also Sardis, and Philadelphia. They contemplate a change in the whole matter. The number seven is applied, and Thyatira is the end of one section, and then we have another section embracing Sardis, and Philadelphia, and Laodicea. Laodicea is the end of the whole matter, and what the Lord is alluding to is the nauseousness of such systems where the truth is not honoured or maintained. They are characterised by neutrality to Christ and His claims. Therefore the Lord speaks of Himself as “the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”.
JE I thought it was important to see that the truth is really the issue in all these things, is it not? Would you say that the consideration of such thoughts as the assembly being the base of the truth, and the Holy Spirit being designated as “the Spirit of truth”, would give the truth a very great place in our hearts, to be regarded as an entity, something that we [p. 279] love?
JT That is what is so important in John’s writings, the truth. He says “I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth”. He keeps up the feminine side too, and the idea of children, and he had no greater joy than that his children walked in truth. So that the only hope and stay for us is the maintenance of the truth, going on with the truth.
PHH Would the expression “have fallen away” in Hebrews 6: 6, bear upon this? It says, “It is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift ... and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him”. Would that in principle be apostasy?
JT Yes it is. There is no escape, there is no hope of recovery. I would say it is apostasy.
AJD Would the systematised error, referred to in Ephesians 4, be set over against the knowledge of the Son of God?
JT Yes it would. Systematised error is just the thing that Paul in writing to the Ephesians is aiming at. What is needed to counteract it is full growth, the full-grown man, and what we have already been saying about Jezebel, I think, is quite important and ought to be followed up a little; that is to say, she is seen first of all in a religious character, and allied with Ahab, so to speak, allied with the responsible element called the angel; that is to say, what represents the assembly responsibly. But then she is detached, in the account of the Spirit in the book of Revelation, she is detached from that in chapter 16, and particularly in the 17th and then in the 18th; so much space is given to her. It is very significant that so much space is given to the subject of Jezebel, and then Babylon. That is to say, the political side is thoroughly in mind, and her relation to the seven-headed beast.
[p. 280] She is riding the beast; she is sitting on it, meaning that she has taken up her place. She says, “I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow”. She is detaching herself and becoming independent, thinking that she has enough to rely on, but the scripture goes on to show in chapter 18 how thoroughly she is demolished, destroyed. And then chapter 19 makes way for the true assembly to appear, in the words, “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready”. All that is consequent upon the destruction of the false assembly.
HH Would the thought of domination come in there, the woman riding the beast as dominating that system of things?
JT Yes, she is clothed in purple and in scarlet representing all the show of the world. She is seen in a wilderness, a remarkable thing.
JE Is it instructive to see that such expressions as “man of sin”, and “son of perdition”, are masculine ideas? But would Jezebel, and the reference to Babylon, and the place the woman has in it, give us the climax of the enemy’s work on the feminine side; this being swept away, the ground is cleared for the bringing in of the assembly, the bride?
JT Very good. That is open to us here, to see how the bride is first brought in, in chapter 19, as “his wife” over against Jezebel and all the horrible conditions that marked her; over against her, and all that attaches to her, we have the wife, the Lamb’s wife, meaning one that would stand by His interests and look after them. And then there is what is granted to her, “that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints”. Therefore the position of the brethren at the moment is of such importance to heaven; that there is that which is according to God, according to Christ, in the sense of clothing,
[p. 281] and the wifely relation to Him. The book of Proverbs confirms this in type.
DJM Are we only delivered from the spirit of these things in the power of the Spirit? I was thinking of sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
JT These are very beautiful phrases, and I am thinking of them in looking at these epistles. They point to the importance of the meetings that God has brought us into, these three days meetings in different parts of the world; because the truth, the assembly itself, is worked out in these meetings, and they become resistant to the wickedness of the devil in all these systems. So there is something for God; and as a matter of fact, it is irresistible. What is here is irresistible.
DJM Would you say a word about “sanctification of the Spirit”?
JT It is what we were saying about the last chapter of the Bible; in Revelation 22: 11 we have, “Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still”. We are going on with that; these meetings are specially on our hearts for the truth, and the idea of sanctification of course comes in, because it is a question of the service of God; that is to say, priesthood, and all that enters into it. We are made priests of God and of the Christ, so let us continue in what we are made, and increase in it.
AED That links on with the thought of being beloved. We have the suggestion here of the brethren being beloved of the Lord in the midst of such conditions, and Daniel, earlier, was a man greatly beloved; what is here for the divine pleasure stands in contrast to all that has to be [p. 282] judged.
JT So that we have in verse 13, “We ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, that God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, whereto he has called you by our glad tidings, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold fast the instructions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our letter. But our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us, and given us eternal consolation and good hope by grace, encourage your hearts, and establish you in every good work and word”. These are the things that are a sure rebuttal of all this wickedness that is current. And it is not to be despised either, in a sense of smallness, because the Spirit is here Himself, the Spirit is actually working amongst the brethren.
JE Would you say that the enemy’s great aim is to oppose the truth working out on the masculine and feminine lines, and that the Spirit is here to support us as to that, as to the spirit of sonship on the one hand, and the means we have of really entering into what belongs to the bride, on the other?
JT Quite so. The Spirit of sonship: “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. That is what we have in the service of God.
AGL Would the blessing of Benjamin fit in with this passage? “The beloved of Jehovah — he shall dwell in safety by him; he will cover him all the day long, and dwell between his shoulders”, Deuteronomy 33: 12.
JT Very good. The fact is, the allusion is to Jerusalem, that Jerusalem belonged to Benjamin in his territory. He was gracious enough to let David come in and take on Jerusalem and set up the service of God in Jerusalem, and so David became, you [p. 283] might say, the leader in Israel in the service of God, especially in the book of Psalms. So that Judah is mentioned in the Psalms as God’s sanctuary, “Judah was his sanctuary”, which is a very remarkable thing. It really alludes to David, the place David has, because he comes in when God awaked as a mighty man and put His enemies to reproach (Psalm 78: 65 - 72). God constituted Judah His sanctuary, and I believe that was the grace of Benjamin, because the relations between Benjamin and Judah were very strong; in Genesis, Judah pleaded with Joseph about Benjamin, about the youngest son. And Jerusalem belonged to Benjamin really, as any one can see by looking at the book of Joshua, but it came into the hands of Judah, so that the whole position has been altered through the grace of Benjamin, but then the love that operated in him afforded liberty to Judah to take on Jerusalem, through David.
HH There is a good word on that line in Genesis 49 about Benjamin ravening as a wolf, in the morning devouring the prey, and at night dividing the spoil. As the One at the right hand of God, Son of the right hand, in that way Christ comes in in His appearing, and brings about these results we have been speaking about this afternoon?
JT So that Jacob, inspired by the Spirit of God, is enabled to put the whole truth in order, and Benjamin comes in as the son of God’s right hand, you might say, the son of Jacob’s right hand.
Ques Is it diverting you to ask if you had anything to say to us about verse 6 onward of the last chapter?
JT Well, it is a question of importance as to discipline, and how it might be modified; how it might be reduced from severity to mildness, on the one hand, or increased from mildness to severity on the other. The idea in that word in verse 6 is not withdraw in the full sense of putting away, as [p. 284] it was in the beginning, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 5. The word is ‘withdraw’, but in the sense of shrinking, as the note would indicate. So that the penalty may be made mild, according to the facts of the case; because what is alluded to is a person not working at all, as it says, “Now we enjoin you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the instruction which he received from us. For ye know yourselves” (this is something to be noted, because they had much already, before they got this epistle) “how ye ought to imitate us, because we have not walked disorderly among you; nor have we eaten bread from any one without cost; but in toil and hardship working night and day not to be chargeable to any one of you, not that we have not the right, but that we might give ourselves as an example to you, in order to your imitating us. For also when we were with you we enjoined you this, that if any man does not like to work, neither let him eat. For we hear that there are some walking among you disorderly, not working at all, but busybodies. Now such we enjoin and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that working quietly they eat their own bread”. So that it is a question of something that requires discipline, but with greatly reduced severity. It is a matter that does not involve that the man is to be treated other than as a brother. Whereas in Matthew, where discipline has to be executed, he is to be to the brother who is trespassed against, as an heathen man and a publican, but here this case does not require that; “Do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother”. There is not much more to say, only that it is something that is placed amongst the saints as discipline, when there is conduct that requires it.
PL Would such an attitude require assembly action to administer [p. 285] it?
JT Well, it is an apostolic epistle. The instruction here is apostolic, so that it is a question of carrying out what he says; but he is modifying it by the fact that the man is treated as a brother, he is not treated as a heathen man, or a publican.
PL Your point is that all apostolic injunctions are now enshrined authoritatively in the assembly?
JT Exactly. And it is a question of what the Lord would say. Take John 20: “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”. Well, that is left open. It is something put into the hands of the brethren. It is a question of what they think should be done. The Lord is leaving it with them.
AGL How far would you go on the line of not keeping company with such?
JT Well, the word ‘shrink’ is probably the actual thought of the word “withdraw” and it would mean, of course, that you would shrink from them: you would not ask them to your house, and carry on as you used to. In Galatians 6 the idea is, “If even a man be taken in some fault” (taken in it, found in it), “ye who are spiritual restore such a one”. That is left open. We are not told exactly what to do, except to restore him, and the word ‘restore’ means that you make him what he used to be. That is to say, he is to function as he used to. It is to set him up again as he used to be, and I think this is a similar thing.
CFI Would it require that the assembly be convened to take such action as it contemplated here?
JT I think it is a question of what the brethren might think. John 20 shows that the Lord leaves things with us, and if we deem it to require withdrawal, then of course, the Lord would say; He is with us, because that is the way the thing is put. It is to bear out the characteristics of John’s gospel, because it is what is left with us. Well, what are [p. 286] we? How are we instructed? What have we learnt? Go by that.
Rem There would be liberty, I gather, to apply this modified discipline in other cases than a brother not working; is it according to the judgment of the brethren?
JT Just so. That is what I was saying, because the Lord leaves it with us, as if He were giving us a blank cheque, to fill it out.
LPM So it is not a question of retaining his sins, would you say, but rather our attitude; he is still viewed as a brother basically. Is that right?
JT Well, that is what the apostle says; but then it may be more serious than this, because so far the apostle is only speaking of a man that is not working and yet eating; that is to say, he is not earning his living. He is really unrighteous, and it might turn to be that, in time, but that is all he is mentioning, what he is doing. Then it is a question of what the judgment of the brethren is.
Ques The question is often asked. Can the brethren withdraw from a fully repentant person; that is, are there sins which are so serious, and connected with a course, that would require withdrawal to fully restore the person?
JT Well, it is a question of the brethren’s decision. The Lord would be saying to us in John 20, I think, ‘I have breathed into you, and you know what I have taught you, and now I want you to be what you are, what My instructions have made you, and I am leaving it with you, as to what you do’; and “whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”, not they shall be but they are. You might say it is simultaneous, but the Lord was basing it all on what they were, what they would think.
AJD Would the following verse in this chapter help us. “But the Lord of peace himself give you [p. 287] peace continually in every way. The Lord be with you all”.
JT It would. John 20 itself is a sort of Magna Carta, really, given to the brethren, given to the saints; and the Lord would have it so. He would have christianity on that basis, the liberty wherewith He makes us free. It involves teaching that has gone before, what we have been brought up in, and should know ourselves.
Rem What you are saying would test the spirituality of the brethren very much more than a set code.
JT I think it would. You feel that you are more in sonship. You are acting like men, as the apostle said. “until we all arrive ... at the full-grown man”. We know what to do. We do not have to be told what to do.
JP You have already drawn attention to the fact that the assembly must be recognised in everything; would that be taken account of in connection with this section?
JT Well, that is what I think is of prime importance in all these meetings that we have had, the place the assembly has in the Lord’s mind, and especially now that we have touched on these letters to the assemblies. He loves the thought of the assembly and how it is brought up. He is Son over the house, and how He has nurtured us! Paul, of course, being His representative, and others. How he has nurtured us in this very epistle, as a father his own children! Well now, what is the result of that, what are you? Are you naughty, or are you wise? Can you be trusted, or can you not be trusted? The Lord is aiming at that. That is what I think enters into all this, especially this passage before us.
Ques So that Proverbs says, “The heart of her husband confideth in her, and he shall have no lack of spoil”?
JT Just so. The Lord is known in his wife, as it were. His wife makes Him known. He is known in the gates through His wife.
Ques Have we perhaps given too much importance to the care meeting, do you think; not enough to the assembly?
JT It never should be treated as the assembly, because the Lord is jealous of the assembly. It is the one thing that He has given Himself for, in that sense; and He is so jealous about it, and any diversion from it or disregard of it is distasteful to Him.
CFI How far should we go in the care meeting? Would we establish facts?
JT That is all. It is all tentative.
CFI Would what might be suitable to be done in the assembly be arrived at in any sense in the care meeting?
JT Well, it might be suggested, of course, but we must remember that the Lord is there when we assemble, not at the care meeting, but as the assembly. The Lord is there, and everything would take character from that fact; what He is, what His mind would be, and it is a question of spirituality, because the Lord has always His own mind, and we are said to have the mind of Christ. Well, it is a question of what might be imparted to us at the moment, not to be decided by the brothers in care; whatever they do decide is only in the sense of suggestion, because it may change in the interim.
JE Is it not striking that while according to Matthew the Lord says Himself, “I am with you alway”, yet as the matter reaches finality in chapter 18, the word is “tell it to the assembly”, not to the Lord?
JT Very good.
AED If there is any change in the interim, that would involve that priestly persons are in touch with the persons between the care meeting and the [p. 289] assembly? And any repentance discerned, is brought into the matter, is it?
JT Quite so. So what you get in Leviticus as to leprosy is the principle; that is, the priest is always there, it is not if he be there, the priest is always there, and therefore things may change in an instant, you may say. Therefore we have to go by what is at the moment.
Ques So you would not shut up a case between the care meeting and the assembly meeting?
JT Quite so.
CFI Would you say that something might require exclusion even if there is full repentance there?
JT “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted”.
Ques You mean the possibility of remission is mentioned before the possibility of retention?
JT Quite so.