THE HOUSE OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL *(CONTINUED)*

^[p. 132] THE HOUSE OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL (CONTINUED)

1 Timothy 3: 14 - 16; 1 Peter 2: 1 - 10

JP It has been thought that we might continue the subject we had before us this morning — the house of God.

RSS What would you say was the relation between the last two verses of the first scripture read? The passage speaks of the house of God, and then goes on to say, “Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” 1 Timothy 3: 16.

JT Verse 15 speaks of conduct in the house, and this must be in accord with the revelation of God in Christ.

RSS Would you say the house of God was consequent upon the manifestation of God in flesh?

JT I would.

RSS The last verse is a very remarkable scripture. No doubt its connection is significant.

Ques Would you say the last verse is connected with the truth?

JT Yes, the truth is involved in the mystery of piety, and it is upheld and preserved in the church.

The first epistle to Timothy outlines conduct in God’s house: the house was there, and the man who was to conduct himself in the house. The house was literally the assembly at Ephesus, and the man who was to conduct himself in it was Timothy.

JP I think the expression, “that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house” supposes, on the part of Timothy, a knowledge of the divine standard. That is really what came before us this morning, and what you have just said.

JT Yes, it was all there at Ephesus. The groundwork of this epistle is what was established there. The house of God must precede conduct in the ^[p. 133] house.

JP It is a great point to see that everything was there. As was said this morning, the assembly at Ephesus was of great importance. The work begins at Jerusalem, and goes on to Antioch, and at Ephesus you get full bloom. I think it is very helpful to see that everything was there.

JT There was the house, the man who was to conduct himself in the house, and the line of conduct outlined. The idea of the house of God is a wonderful thing to get hold of, and I do not think anyone can get a right thought of it without apprehending the material of which it was formed and built.

JP That is where the scripture in 1 Peter 2 comes in. It gives an idea of the material.

JT It seems to me the primary thought in the house was that the Lord would have something He could call His own. I think the Lord looked forward to that with great delight. He would have that which would be all His own, and hence which He could use with perfect freedom down here,

JP This has reference to Matthew 16:18. “On this rock I will build my assembly”.

JT Quite so. In Matthew 11 the Lord refers to the “babes” in contrast with the leaders in the world-system. Rejected by the latter, He would take up the “babes” and form them for Himself; for His use.

Ques When Jesus said to Simon, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church”, Matthew 16: 18, what did He indicate?

JT Peter’s confession indicated that he was a stone, and as such was to form part of the building. The Lord says, as it were, I am going to have a structure, and you are going to be a stone in it.

RSS What would you say is the difference between the house and the body?

JT The body is that in which a man is expressed, but a house is that in which a ^[p. 134] man lives.

RSS And I suppose you would say that if you go into a man’s house, you get a pretty fair idea as to what the man is?

JT Quite so. The idea of a house is, I think, a dwelling-place. If God establishes a house, that house is bound to be in every way in accord with God. I think what you see also is that the house of God in its bearing is toward all men; it must be great enough to accommodate all.

RSS The Lord says, “It is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations”. Mark 11: 17.

JT In sending out the invitation, God meant to convey that provision had been made for all. There was plenty of accommodation in God’s house for the whole of humanity. It affords shelter, a home, etc., for all men. This brings out the vastness of the scheme; what the house was.

Ques I was thinking of the “great house” (2 Timothy 2: 20) and the various vessels in it. Is not that a different thought?

JT In any great house there are all kinds of vessels: silver, gold, stone, earthen, some to honour and some to dishonour, etc. I do not think the house of God is alluded to there. To be used by the Master of the house the vessel must be “unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work”. 2 Timothy 2: 21.

Rem When speaking of the house of God, it is important that we remember whose house it is — Gods house.

JT I think that is important. It brings in the thought of God’s character: it is God’s house, and there God must have things all His own way; and what that means is that the material must be all divinely formed. You must have the proper material. If it is to be God’s house, it must be constructed of material that is according to God — in other words, it is all living material, really ^[p. 135] divine riches.

WHF You get a description of the material in the second scripture that was read (1 Peter 2), “living stones”.

You spoke of the house of God: it is a real thing; there is nothing spurious in it; there could not possibly be in God’s house.

JT If God’s house, it is God’s house.

WHF Oftentimes in these days the thought of God’s house is given up, or it is looked at as a great house, a mixed sort of thing, where things are in a terrible state of confusion; evil has come in; good and bad are there; but the house of God — Christ’s own building — has always been from the very beginning that which was of Himself.

Rem And it is not to be viewed theoretically; it is living.

Ques In the first scripture read, a man is seen in the house of God, and in the second scripture he is seen as a stone in the building; the same man, in a sense. Would you say a little about that?

JT I think the passage in Timothy should properly come in after the one read in Peter. You must get the building before the man acting in it, so we should take up Peter first in that way. We were saying this morning that you could scarcely have preaching without the building; but, as a matter of fact, you do not come into this building without preaching. Becoming part of the building, you come through preaching, but the building must be there before you can come to it, before you can become a part of it; so if you take it up as an individual experience, it is as having grown up to salvation, having tasted that the Lord is good, and having come to Him as the Living Stone, you are built in.

JP I think the building-in really depends on what is indicated in the fourth verse “To whom coming, as unto a living stone”.

JT You are proved to be a living stone by movement — movement toward Christ, apprehended as the Living Stone.

Ques Would you say one might be a stone not yet in the building?

JT Yes. I think that is quite true.

Ques Is not everyone sealed with the Spirit a stone?

JT Yes, from the divine side. The first thing is to see the character of what God has instituted down here. To be a living stone there, really supposes you to have surmounted all adverse power.

JP And that is really the point you have reached in the third verse: “If indeed ye have tasted that the Lord is good”. You have grown up to salvation. Salvation involves the surmounting of all adverse power.

JT But then you get another point indicated: you actually move to the Lord; the Lord is rejected, and outside of all here, and you come to Him as the Living Stone, disallowed of men.

Ques I suppose Peter walking on the water is a type of one who is superior to all adverse power?

JT In Matthew 14 you get a man saved: a man walking on the water; and in Matthew 16 that man is given a place in Christ’s building; and while that place is really in the presence of all adverse power, he is superior to it. It is a very wonderful thing to be a part of the building.

Rem I think you have said a child does not walk on the water.

JT It needs energy to do that. What you come to is that which God set up down here, and this was in men who had overcome the world. It was true morally that the disciples had overcome the world, and were completely independent of every adverse power. What did Peter, John, and the others care for the world-power? They were superior to it.

^[p. 137] Ques They were in the power of Christ’s resurrection, were they not?

JT Yes. We speak of the house now; that which God set up, but I do not think we are sensible of the awful opposition there is to it. It is the same opposition that there was to Christ. It is no small matter to be part of the building. The whole world-power was opposed to Christ.

Now, what would the Lord do? He would build in the presence of all that; actually build; and build that which the gates of hades would not prevail against. It is in taking it up in that way you get an idea of what the building was. It was a wonderful structure.

Ques At what time do I get built into the church?

JT I think when you leave the world-system and come to Christ as the Living Stone, you are fit for the building.

JP That was a wonderful point you spoke of just now, “to whom coming”. It is wonderful when you reach Him in that way.

JT It is. You are then fit to be built in.

Ques What you have said is the only ground upon which we can be built in?

JT I think so.

RSS It needs education.

JT It needs divine education. What good is anybody to Christ at the present time who has not faced the world-power and overcome it? If the Lord takes him up he will give way. The Lord knows that too well, and hence would not take up anybody who has not overcome the world-power. The Lord is solicitous of the welfare of every Christian, but before He gives a man a place in the building he must have overcome the world. When in your soul you recognise Christ as the Son of God, the Lord ^[p. 138] would say to you, You are a stone: I can use you in the building.

Rem That is the man in John 9.

JT Quite so; a man that has come out of the world-system. That is to say, the building was formed at the beginning of men who had overcome the world-power, all the power that was against Christ.

JP Hence the Lord could say with all assurance and confidence, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.

Ques You would say building into the house, and adding to the church are two different things?

JT Adding to the church is not quite building. There were many added who were not built in, although all added by the Lord belonged to the building.

Ques To be built in, is it not necessary to be partakers of the divine nature?

JT I think so. The idea of being built in is that you are a living stone: you have come to the Living Stone.

RSS Would you say it is the appropriation of Christ as Son of the living God, in the soul?

JT I think it is, and that involves the antagonism of the whole world-system; in coming to Christ, you must come to Him outside it all.

RSS Is that because Christ is of another order?

JT Yes, He is disallowed here.

JP Hence, in John’s epistle you get, “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God”. 1 John 5: 5.

JT Yes, as Son of God. He is outside the whole order of things down here; that is what He set forth when He walked on the water; and in order to come to Him we must learn to walk on the water; and I think if you do the Lord will say, Now I can use you.

Ques What is the wind there suggestive of? The waves were boisterous.

JT ^[p. 139] The wind would be satanic power, I think.

Ques What puts the soul in motion?

JT Christ. He becomes infinitely attractive. The order is this, I think: in Matthew 11 the Lord calls attention to Himself; in chapter 12 His greatness comes out, and thus you are attracted to Him; in chapter 14 you get Him walking on the water, and I think He walked on the water because He wished to teach Peter to walk on it. Peter leaves the boat and walks on the water to Christ because he loved Him. He says, “If it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water” Matthew 14: 28.

Ques What does the water set forth there?

JT Humanity under the power of Satan. It is often used in that way.

RSS It is often spoken of as death. Jordan is a type of death.

JT Jordan represents death, but the water, as we see it in Matthew 14, is that upon which Satan can act. It was acted upon by the wind, and I fancy it is symbolical of man under satanic influence.

Rem The water is people — men.

JT I think if the Lord is working with you, there are things by which Satan would seek to affect you. If the Lord undertakes to build up a structure here, you may depend upon it Satan will do his best to demolish it. The Lord knew that perfectly well; therefore He built it of proper material — of Himself morally. He had overcome the world Himself, and was the Foundation — the Rock. The whole structure was to be of the order of the foundation.

JP I think what you have been bringing out connects with all we had this morning. When Christ was here it was a wonderful thing for God, for He was One in whom the blessed God could be perfectly expressed; He was in every way according to God; maintained in divine power against all the power of the enemy. And now the Lord has not intended ^[p. 140] anything less than a continuance of all that was really true in Himself. It is important to see that.

JT It was a wonderful thought of God, especially when you consider the kind of people He took up; that is to say, what they were in the eyes of the world. They were of no account at all, and yet they were put together in such wise that they could withstand all the forces of the world-power. It was truly a wonderful conception.

Ques I feel a difficulty in what is coming out. We have been accustomed to think of the house in connection with the indwelling of the Spirit, thus taking in all believers. You seem to eliminate a great many believers from the house as we get it in this passage.

JT I would not eliminate any person having the Holy Ghost from the house; still I think we should keep to the order of Scripture; if you do, you must leave room for building. The person built in is supposed to have salvation, that is, deliverance from this evil world, and to have tasted that the Lord is good, before he comes to the Lord as the Living Stone, and is built in. It is as “living stones” we are built up.

Ques What would you say the house was to those who had not overcome the world?

JT I think every Christian will find comfort there, and the strong will support the weak. It is a very blessed place.

Rem Account is taken of conduct in the house after you are once there.

JT I think the point is you are to conduct yourself according to the house — it is God’s house. I think it is important to see that the Lord is a perfect Builder, and if He builds, He builds of suitable material.

RSS What would you say the characteristic features of God’s house ^[p. 141] are?

JT Love and holiness, because these are characteristic of God. God is love, and God is holy.

Rem I still have a little difficulty, because I had supposed the force of this scripture was, that they had been cut from the Living Rock — Christ. While I very much enjoy what you say, my difficulty is that you seem to eliminate some believers from being built in.

JT I see what you mean, and I think the only thing is to see what was at the beginning, how the Lord began to work. At the outset evidently they were built in on the ground of coming to the Lord. “To whom coming”.

RSS Would you say at the present time you find souls in an abnormal condition? That might explain the difficulty.

JT I do not deny at all that everybody who has the Holy Ghost belongs to God’s building, from God’s side, but the question is, whether or not he is in his place. For instance, if a Christian is in the world he is in the world-system; whereas God’s building is God’s system. You cannot be practically in both systems at once.

Rem Then again, I suppose you get stones that are being prepared. You do not get a stone in the quarry that is ready to go into a building: it must be prepared.

JT Yes, you see that in Solomon’s temple. The stone was taken from the quarry, and prepared, before it came to Jerusalem to be put into the building.

The material used in God’s system must be altogether different from that in the world-system, for God’s system is all His own, and in every way different from the world-system, so I cannot see how you are going to make out that a man who is in the world is practically in God’s system.

Ques Would you say there is any thought of testing the material?

JT ^[p. 142] I think so; the test of everything is Christ. The question is whether you have come to Christ, apart from the world-system altogether. You abandon the world-system, and come to Him, and then the Lord can use you. My idea of the Lord using men is that He builds them into His system. The Lord is not using individuals apart from His system.

RSS I suppose the principles set forth in individuals in Old Testament times are now incorporated into God’s system?

JT Every thought of God for man must find its place in the church now. If the ark had not been capable of going through the flood every thought of God as to it would have been lost. Every animal, Noah and his family, would all have perished in the water. But the ark was capable of going through the flood, and so, taking this as an illustration, the church at the outset was perfectly constructed and capable of standing against all kinds of opposing elements.

RSS Even the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

JT Exactly. You may be sure that Satan would not leave it alone. Satan has done all he can against the church.

Ques When you speak of a system, what do you mean?

JT I speak of God’s system, of which Christ is the Centre, which involves the kingdom; and a city as another feature of it, as well as a house, a home; and if you have these three things together, I think you have pretty much the world to come. Every feature of the world to come must find its answer in the church now; thus God’s testimony is not in any individual now; it is in the structure.

Ques Then it is in the way of testimony?

JT Yes. Looking at the ark in this way gives you an idea of what the church was intended to be,

^[p. 143] and I think the way it works with people is that they become interested. Even in a day of ruin it is a wonderful thing for a locality to have in it a company of people in accord with God.

Ques You would say each one of us ought to be exercised to be in accord with God’s system?

JT Yes, we should be exercised to know how to conduct ourselves in the house of God. The house was originally the sphere of the activity of divine affections.

JP The question is, whether we know how to behave ourselves there. I fear we are somewhat strangers to a sphere like that, a sphere where there is nothing but the activity of divine love.

JT In 1 Peter 2: 5, you get the activity of divine affections towards God: “A holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.

JP What a wonderful sphere the house of God is! It is the sphere of the activity of divine love. The activity of divine love, I think, secures everything for God on the one hand, and it secures everything for men on the other; in that way the order is indicated here: “holy priesthood”, which is Godward; then the “royal priesthood”, which is manward. The activity of divine love secures both.

JT If we are constituted priests toward God (holy priests) it is only by love, and if we are constituted royal priests it is by love.

JP And you see it perfectly in Christ; it is a wonderful thing to see that everything was secured for God in Christ. God found in Him a full answer to all He was Himself; everything was there for man also; every possible kind of blessing.

Rem I was thinking of the Levitical priesthood, and how the blood of bulls and goats could give no satisfaction to God, but now in this scripture we ^[p. 144] have before us we can see how we can give pleasure to God.

JT Yes, “spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”. 1 Peter 2: 5. These sacrifices are the outcome of love, and would not be acceptable to God otherwise.

JP When God took the children of Israel out of Egypt, He proposed to make them a kingdom of priests to Himself, which would involve their being trained and formed according to God. This never really took place, but what God intended in Israel finds its answer now in the church.

Rem You might call these the two initial features of the building, that for which it was constructed: Godward and manward.

JT You can understand how a man appreciates having his affections reciprocated by his family. The original idea in the institution of a house was that the affections were to centre in the head of the house, and flow downwards to the wife and children, and then to be reciprocated by them; and I think that thought is taken up in God’s house. The love all begins with God, but finds its answer in the saints, toward God; then, on the other hand, there is the external aspect of it, the royal character of it, toward the world.

Ques Does that agree with what you said this morning regarding John 4 and John 7? In John 4 would you say you get what is for God and in John 7 what is for man?

JT When the heart answers to God you are a holy priest; when answering to man, you are a royal priest. A man of the world — what is there royal about him? He is but a common plebeian. He has no royalty. A man who is affected by divine love is royal.

Rem We have to be kings to be royal.

JT You must have royal blood. That is ^[p. 145] the idea of a royal priesthood formed into the nature of Christ. That is the idea of royalty.

JP You do not see much indication of royalty in a worldly Christian.

JT Not an atom of it. If you want to see what is in God’s house, you must look at it as it was set up in the beginning by the hand of God.

Ques Would you say to have a place in God’s house it is necessary to be on that side where the house exists, that is, on the other side of death?

JT I think so. The house properly was established in resurrection in superiority to all adverse power. If it were not so, it would have been down in a moment; it would not have been able to stand for Satan’s power would have wrecked it.

Rem, It is the pillar and ground of the truth.

JT And you may be sure it is a mighty thing to be that: to be the base of the truth, because all the power of Satan was against the truth.

Ques Is it not a real fight that comes up, as mentioned in the book of Joshua, when we reach the other side of Jordan?

JT That relates to the question of conflict; conflict is in connection with the house of God. I think it is that the house of God is that in which God is made known, in which He is expressed; it really means the overthrow of the world-system.

Ques Is that what you get in Ephesians?

JT Yes, those who have the place of the house of God are bound to come into conflict. In Ephesians 6: 12, you get the nature of the conflict. They are to stand. “Having done all to stand”. The saints are to be clothed in the armour of God. When Christ comes He will be clothed in the same armour.

Rem In order to stand it must be in the strength of the Lord, in the power of His might.

Rem In Matthew 16 the Lord says, “Upon this rock I will build my church”, and this passage we have before us says, “The church of the living God”.

JP That gives force to what follows “Confessedly the mystery of piety is great”; so great that God established that on which it could repose, and which was competent to maintain it here; that is, the house of God.

Ques Why do you say conflict is in connection with the house?

JT Because I think the house involved the destruction of the world-system. It was another system. The thing to get hold of is another system; that is, another world. If God proposes to bring in another world, this one has to go.

JP I know we would hardly like to confess it, but the difficulties we have when things of this kind are brought before us, arise from our being largely formed by the present state of things amongst God’s people. This makes it difficult to apprehend the true character of the house of God as it was first set up.

To-day we see Christians mixed up with this present world-system, but we can plainly see from Scripture the way any of us can get set right. The order of this is indicated in 1 Peter 2: brought to salvation, having tasted that the Lord is good; then you come to Christ, the Living Stone, and as a consequence of coming to Him we are being built up a spiritual house.

Here we are in a state of things contrary to God, which exists and prevails all about us, and the great point is to be in the light of the things which were established at the beginning, and to be exercised by them, so that they may be true of us; and then we shall be able, and only then, to come out in suitable conduct. In spite of all that we call ruin and failure, it is wonderfully encouraging to know that God has not ^[p. 147] changed.

JT Oh, no! I think where the various institutions in Christendom miss it is, that they practically say they can improve upon God’s plan, God’s system; all kinds of innovations have been introduced; and what this means virtually is, that God’s plan was defective. He has His own means to promulgate the truth, and He is not going to deviate from it. If things are such that you cannot act in accordance with the Lord, the best thing is not to act at all — wait on Him.

JP It is not for man to come in and dictate how anybody should behave in His house: God is the Dictator.

JT Yes, God is the Dictator. If the house is God’s, God rules. He must have His own way in it.

Ques Is it not a great encouragement to know that the house is intact?

JT In a certain sense it is intact. It is so in God’s mind, and the vital elements are still here, so that it may be realised practically.

Rem I suppose we have had something of the true thought of the house here this morning in respect to the gospel.

JT I do not feel we can say much about the house now. We can see what was at the beginning, but I doubt if there is anything of it to see now.

We know that God’s mind is always the same, and it is a great encouragement to know that God is able to bring His purposes to pass. The foundation of God stands sure; that means His ability to effectuate His purposes in spite of the failure of the church.

WHF You would say the house still exists?

JT The house certainly exists; in spite of the failure it exists here in virtue of the presence of the Spirit in the saints, but it is not apparent, and will not be until it comes out as the heavenly city. It is not only that it exists in the mind of God, but it still remains actually down here; otherwise there is ^[p. 148] no vital Christianity at all. But it has disappeared as a public witness.

Consequent upon the failure of the church, all turns on Christ, the faithful and true Witness. In our relations towards one another, we are governed by the order originally established in the house; but all thought of public testimony is now dependent on the coming of the Lord.

If I meet a few Christians walking in the light of the house of God as set up at the beginning; I value them greatly; I know God has put them there for my good.

Rem If you find a believer you make the most of him, and conduct yourself in the light of the house — the assembly of God.

WHF We come to 2 Timothy now regarding the condition of things: it is now a question of departing from iniquity, and following righteousness, faith, love, and peace, with those that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Ques Would you say, notwithstanding all the breakdown and failure that has come in, it is the privilege of every true believer to walk in the light of what the assembly was at the beginning?

JT Yes. Our conduct ought to be based on the truth of the house of God.

WHF Unless you get in your soul the reality of what things were at the start, I do not see how you can conduct yourself according to God now, in view of the present state of things around you.

It seems to me the thought for us is to find out where we are, in the midst of the confusion that has come in, so that we may be able to stand for Christ in it all; and 2 Timothy, to my mind, gives us real instruction as to it. “Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity”; then let him “follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart”. 2 Timothy 2: 19,22.

^[p. 149] I think that is really what would be before the true heart at the present moment. Everything, as far as man’s responsibility is concerned, is gone, and now everything depends on the Lord.

JT Yes, one can speak with the utmost confidence of Christ, and I have no doubt that is what the foundation of God means. The foundation of God stands sure; He has ability to bring to pass His purposes. You cannot speak of the church as seen publicly now.

JP I think it wonderful to see in that way the difference between the first and second epistles to Timothy. In the first we are manifestly in the light, presence, beauty, and glory of all God established down here at the beginning. In the opening verses of the first epistle Paul is an apostle according to the commandment of God, our Saviour. In the second epistle his apostleship is connected with the promise of life in Christ Jesus; in the light of what is established in Christ Jesus.

JT Yes, you can speak with the utmost confidence of Christ; you can depend on Christ, for He will stand by you. You get a wonderful account in chapter 4 of how He stood by the apostle. In the days of 1 Timothy you might have had some confidence in the church: there it is said to be the pillar and base of the truth; but now you can only rely upon Christ.

JP I think we have lived to see what you have spoken of: what we have lived to see is that if Christ is ministered, if Christ is set before His beloved people, God will put the seal of His approval upon that, and there will be an answer to it in the souls of the saints. That is what we need now.

JT The thing to see is what comes out in 2 Timothy. The apostle speaks of one and another that had forsaken him; he does not speak that way in the first epistle. I think the saints in Ephesus ^[p. 150] stood by Paul to the utmost when he stood for the testimony in Asia Minor, but in the second epistle he has to say that all forsook him. He goes on to name several who had forsaken him, but then he says, “The Lord stood with me”. 2 Timothy 4: 17. There is nothing that we can trust now, but we can trust the Lord.

JP The moral courage of the apostle in the second epistle is simply wonderful — it is marvellous.

JT Paul could say, “The Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; ... and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion” 2 Timothy 4: 17; and then he says, “He shall deliver me”. 2 Timothy 4: 18. You need not be afraid if you are standing. It is a wonderful encouragement to know that if you are standing for what is right, that is all that is necessary — you are sure of the Lord’s support.

Rem In that way we can live in the good of what the house was.

JT You have the Lord, and the Lord put the house there to protect His people.

Ques Will you please say a word on the church as we get it in Ephesians 5:25: “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it”?

JT I think that is the church according to what it will be in the future, the bride. There you come to very different ground. It is not the church as that by which God is made known down here; but the church in relation to Christ the object of His affection. What gives rise to that passage is the relation of husband and wife and then the apostle says, “This is a great mystery; but I speak concerning Christ and the church”. Ephesians 5: 32.

Ques In one of your remarks you used the word ruin. Will you kindly tell us what the ruin is?

JT It would not be an easy matter to define the ruin, because it is so extensive. I think the building as committed into man’s hand is completely ruined; the roof is off, the walls are down ^[p. 151] and, so to speak, you could not locate a single room in the house, as far as I can see; but the moral aspect is what ought to affect us, viz., what Jezebel expresses. That is the most prominent feature. There is great grief expressed amongst us about divisions, etc. Of course they are grievous things, but nothing to be compared with what it is to Christ to have that woman, Jezebel, in the house, as it were. The Lord says, “Thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess”, Revelation 2: 20, and then He goes on to expose her character. That is what affects the Lord more than anything.

RSS What is set forth by Jezebel?

JT I think it is Rome; the principles of Roman Catholicism. She teaches spiritual fornication and idolatry, and poses as related to Christ. What must He feel about that?

JP I am sure we would feel it more if we were more in accord with Christ.

RSS How does that morally affect those who may be spoken of as Christians?

JT I think the principle of it is pervading things all around pretty much, and I feel we ought to be sensitive as to it, and we are not free from it; we are responsible; we are connected with it publicly, Every right-minded child in a family would feel the scandal of the mother’s unfaithfulness just as much as the husband. It is a terrible thing; we do not take in the largeness of the situation, as to how it affects Christ.

RSS Every true Christian would prove by his conduct that he is in sympathy with Christ, by standing apart from it.

JT For instance, Mary of Bethany; she stands out as one who sympathised with Christ when all were against Him. The Lord greatly valued her sympathy. She anointed His head for burial, and He says, “There shall also this ... be told for a memorial of her”. Matthew 26: 13. I think He would greatly value the sympathy of our hearts in a day like this, when that terrible woman, Jezebel, poses in that which claims to be His, and to which He stands related publicly, as part of the professing church which bears His name.

Ques Would you say there is a difference between a disciple and a believer?

JT I think there is. Discipleship involves the circumstances of the Master.

Ques Would you say, coming to Christ as living stones would be coming to Him in the power of His resurrection, in the power of the Spirit?

JT I think in the power of the Spirit is the only way you can come to Christ as the Living Stone.

RSS Is there not the thought of association in the living stones?

JT I think so, and thus that leads on to what you might call proper Christian privilege, but the thought of stones as we have had it before us, is that in coming to Christ we are rejected here — have no place here, and the whole power of Satan is against us. If you wish to join Christ, you must face all that.

JP You would encourage everyone to seek to reach Him.

JT Oh, yes; He is available, and God is still building. It is this which brings out the kindness and longsuffering of God. God goes on building, however people may discredit what He is doing. He is building in view of the future, and even if they do not appreciate it, the long-suffering of God comes out. God is still waiting patiently.

JP In that way there is abundant encouragement for us.

JT Peter’s epistle speaks of how the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah. His long-suffering is salvation.