READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS
READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS
JP What do you think the subject is here?
JT The Speaker: the greatness of the One who has spoken; then the importance of paying attention to what has been spoken.
JP It is a very wonderful Scripture in that way. The Hebrew Christians were in danger of slipping away from what had been communicated to them. This would be negligence of the great salvation; if it was neglected, there would be no escape.
JT I suppose the thought was that a great salvation had been brought to the Jews — made available for them; the Lord had inaugurated it, and there was no escape if what He had inaugurated was neglected. You come to finality when you come to the Son, and if negligent of what He has spoken there is no escape.
JP If we consider the One in whom God speaks we are forced to the conclusion that the speaking is ultimate. As Mr. Raven once said, “Who could speak after the Son?”
JT You might send messages by messengers, but no messenger could convey your mind, but if you come yourself then everything is told out. The prophets could only speak in part. They were only given a message for the moment, but when the Son comes, all there is to be said is said.
Ques Is that why the word “great” is used in connection with salvation?
JT I think so. “Which at the first began to [p. 279] be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. Hebrews 2: 3.
Ques You said a little while ago that it was from the divine side. What did you mean by that?
JT It is God speaking in the Son. Here the Speaker is alone; there is no one associated with Him. What He spoke was “confirmed unto us by them that heard him”, but they are not called speakers. The Speaker is the Son. He is speaking on the part of God.
JP It is no doubt through divine wisdom that the name of the writer of this epistle is left in obscurity.
Ques Have we the purgation of sins here?
JT It is not introduced in this chapter in its application to us, but simply to emphasise the greatness of Him who is speaking.
Ques Is that not in line with what we have been speaking of, that things are presented here from the divine side?
JT In this chapter it is all a question of the great Speaker. If He is seen in any relation or position, it is simply to emphasise His personal greatness. It is no question of applying these things to us, not even as regards His companions. He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions, which emphasises the greatness of Christ.
RSS And the angels are introduced in the same way.
JT It is all a question of the greatness of Christ, the Speaker. The Hebrew Christians had previously received the speaking, and the point was to establish them in what they had received, as they were in danger of slipping away from it. What had been spoken involved the whole truth of Christianity, and there was no escape if they neglected that.
RSS This is emphasised by being again referred to in the end [p. 280] of chapter 12.
JT The One who speaks from heaven, you mean?
RSS Yes. “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh”, etc. Hebrews 12: 25.
JP That principle goes all through this epistle. It is finality here. There is nothing beyond it, and if this be slipped away from, or given up, everything is given up.
Ques Has this reference to the hope?
JT Chapter 6 speaks of the impossibility of renewing again to repentance those once enlightened, and who had tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fell away; but the point here is that if they neglected the thing spoken — the great salvation — there was no escape.
Ques Angels in Revelation have a very prominent place. The several addresses are to the angels of the churches. Is that the same thought as here?
JT No. Angels there are symbolical; whereas here they are introduced in contrast to the Son. “Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son”, etc. Hebrews 1: 5. God never spoke in that way to an angel, but He did to Christ. Angels in the seven addresses to the churches are symbolical; they represent those who are responsible in the churches.
Rem While here they are introduced to show the greatness of the Son.
JT That is the point. Christ alone is addressed as Son.
WJN I suppose there was a tendency on the part of the Hebrews to make much of the angels, for the reason that God had spoken through angels. Here, as has been said, we get testimony to the greatness of the One in whom God has spoken. The One who has spoken is really the expression of what has been [p. 281] spoken.
JP I suppose if the greatness of the One in whom God has spoken really comes before our souls it will deliver us from every wrong tendency. We shall not be disposed to make too much of angels or anybody else.
JT The Person being what He spoke is hardly the point in this chapter. In chapter 4 we get the Word of God, but here Christ is not said to be that. He is here the Son, the Speaker, and the point is not that He is what He spoke, but that the speaking is great because He spoke it. God has spoken to us “in Son”. It is in that Person He has spoken, and what He speaks would be the word of God here.
Ques “Thou art my son”. When was that said of Him?
JT When He became Man.
Ques In a way does it not apply to resurrection? In Acts 13 it speaks of His resurrection, and in Psalm 2 “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion”. Psalm 2: 6.
JT I do not think His being Son is made to stand on resurrection. Born into this world He is owned as Son, and the Father addresses Him as such at His baptism. Resurrection power declares Him to be Son.
RSS “That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”. Luke 1: 35.
JT I think sonship for us is made to stand upon resurrection, but as regards Christ personally nothing is made to stand on resurrection. He is what He is. So here He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions; that is, there is something distinctive about Christ; no matter how He is connected with men, something always marks Him off from them. This is seen in the anointing. He was anointed personally prior to His death, whereas we do not come into the anointing without His death — [p. 282] that is, without the application of the blood. Aaron, as a type, was anointed with oil without the blood.
Rem Here it is the Son who is the Speaker. In former days God spoke through the prophets. He now speaks through the Son.
JT It is stronger than that. God Himself is the Speaker here, but “in Son” — the article is not there.
Rem God is the Speaker, but through the Son.
JT That makes too little of the Son; it places Him on the platform of prophecy. The actual Speaker here is no less than God.
JB We must not forget the personal glory of Christ.
RSS What is the force of “him that speaketh from heaven”,? Hebrews 12: 25.
JT Position, I think. Here it is no question of the position of the Speaker, but of the Speaker Himself. No position could affect the Speaker, whether speaking from heaven or as on earth. The speaking is great because of the Speaker. Morally the Lord always spoke from heaven.
RSS Why do you think it says, “him that speaketh from heaven”, while the speaking was actually upon earth?
JT The law was uttered on earth, and had reference to the earth alone; whereas the speaking now was from heaven, and it refers to both heaven and earth.
JP It is contrast. “For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven”. Hebrews 12: 25.
RSS Does this refer to Moses, or to all the prophets?
JT It refers to the mount from which the law was given. It is a wonderful thing for Christians to get intelligence in their souls as to the Person [p. 283] who has spoken, and the heavenly character of what has been introduced.
JB The first two chapters cover the personal greatness and glory of Christ, as Apostle and High Priest.
JT Chapter 1 is the Apostle, the Speaker, who came out from God; chapter 2 is the Priest; and in chapter 3 the brethren are exhorted to consider the “Apostle and High Priest of our profession”. Hebrews 3: 1. The point was to engage them with the Person who could effect their deliverance and preservation from the world system.
WJN It is a question really of recovery and preservation. The Spirit proceeds on that line: the presentation of Christ, in order to get the eye fixed on Him.
JB But is not inauguration connected with this? I think the first thing is the inauguration of the system.
JT I think so. There was an entirely new system of things inaugurated, with which the great salvation was connected. The apostles are not said to be apostles here. They are mentioned as those who heard and confirmed the things spoken by the Lord.
JP Their importance is derived from the fact that they heard Him. That is all the importance they have.
JT And the Holy Ghost is not even presented as the Speaker in this chapter. All that is introduced is simply confirmatory of the great speaking of the great Speaker.
Rem I had in mind the transfiguration, where God says: “This is my beloved Son, hear him”, (Luke 9: 35) which would bring out the greatness of this One. He owns His Son. This was also at His baptism [p. 284] in Jordan.
Ques Would you explain a little about what is said?
JT I think that is a very important consideration. Of course the chapter does not give what He said. That had already been received. These people, I have no doubt, could have given an account of what He said, but they were in danger of slipping away from it.
WJN I suppose, without going into details, all that was said could be summed up in the expression “great salvation”. The idea with the Jews was to be saved from the hand of the enemy. Did this great salvation effect God’s thought for them?
JT I think so. It would be salvation in its purest sense.
WJN Because Christianity is in view here?
JT Yes. It is simply a question of Christianity, and so what was inaugurated.
Ques Had it been spoken of prior to this?
JT The law and the prophets had borne witness to it, but the great salvation “had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord”. Hebrews 2: 3. An entirely new system of things had been inaugurated by the Lord.
JP There have only been two divine systems. The first proved ineffective, but salvation is found in the second.
JT He is “able also to save to the uttermost”. Hebrews 7: 25.
Rem The great salvation would effect that which we are all set for, I suppose: deliverance from everything.
JT I hope we are all set for it! It is there. The Lord Jesus has inaugurated that in which there is deliverance from everything — escape from everything adverse.
J.B. Where is that found?
JT It is presented to faith as in Christ, but practically it was found at the beginning [p. 285] in the church.
ARS What do you mean by salvation being found in the church?
JT I mean that the Lord has instituted an entirely new system. He spoke about it while He was here. While the Lord was here, there was a measure of salvation for men: He was the Centre. But really what was before Him was the establishment of an entirely new system, and the gospel stands in that relation.
ARS Does not Peter say in the Acts, “Neither is there salvation in any other” (than Christ)? Acts 4: 12.
JT But the question was, “Where is it found?” Christ gives it to you. My thought is that it is realised in a certain sphere. The Person through whom it has been effected, and who gives it to you, is one thing and the sphere where it is realised is another. The Lord Jesus inaugurated that in which salvation is, and it is available to all believers on the Lord Jesus Christ. The Philippian jailor felt the necessity of salvation when he asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” The apostle said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”. Acts 16: 30,31. Salvation was in Christ. The jailor would of course be saved from wrath, but while actually here in the body he would find escape from the power of evil and the elements of the world in virtue of the presence of the Holy Ghost in him as linking him with the assembly.
JP You do not go far in this epistle until you reach the sphere: it is found in chapter 3.
JT Salvation being in Christ is a question of what He has made available for men.
JB It is what He has effected, and what He has effected can only be found in one sphere. That is the church, which is the sphere of the Holy Ghost.
JT I think when speaking of salvation one is justified in speaking of where it is found.
Ques If you neglect this wonderful salvation, what [p. 286] is there?
JP It is neglect in failing to hear His voice.
JB In the inauguration of a system like this there must be a competent Person to inaugurate it, and that Person is seen here.
JT If you want to speak about Christ, you cannot speak about Him fully without bringing in His work — His achievements.
JB If you get a thing inaugurated, you must have an inaugurator.
JT And the inaugurator of necessity is greater than what he inaugurates. All I want to make clear is that the great subject of preaching is Christ, but then you cannot preach Christ fully unless you introduce what He has brought in for man. I hold that to be fundamental. It is absolutely impossible to present Christ in the fulness of His work unless you speak of what He has established here for the good and blessing of men. The prophets speak of salvation: it would be placed in Zion, Isaiah 46. The walls of Zion will be called “Salvation”. The church answers to this for the moment, because it is the dwelling-place of God. It is extraordinary that it should be doubted that salvation is realised where God dwells.
Ques Will you explain more fully as to the sphere of salvation?
JT It is a sphere established here by God, which is permeated by righteousness, peace, joy, etc. There is on the one hand a strong fortress, so to speak; and on the other there is a home, or place of enjoyment. The fortress insures preservation from hostile attacks, but then a man wants more than that. He not only needs preservation and deliverance from enemies, but he wants comfort, and the house of God supplies that for him.
Ques Taking the man who went from Jerusalem to Jericho as an illustration: he fell among thieves, and the good Samaritan came and saved [p. 287] him, and brought him to the inn. Does that mean bringing him into the church?
JT It does not say he saved him, but that he poured in oil and wine. It was a question of the man’s state. The thieves were not in view. The Samaritan did not interfere with the thieves in any way. The man was in a half-dead condition, and the Samaritan poured in oil and wine, and placed him on his own beast. When they come to the inn the man is cared for.
JB I have thought the inn was a place of safety, as having resources for those who could command them. That is, the man is brought to a place of safety, and by One who can command all the resources there.
JT Saying salvation is found in the church in a practical way is only confirmatory of its being in Christ, because the church is in Christ.
GFW When you say salvation is found in the church, do you mean that it is realised there?
JT Yes. It is as if you, as living in Cincinnati, were to say to me, “What you require from me financially you can obtain on application”. I apply to you by letter. You have a bank in New York and give me an order thereon. I find the money in that given place, but always get it from you. If I do not go where it is I will not get it, but I must always maintain direct contact with Christ in heaven.
Ques Do you mean salvation is to be had in Christ, and when a person is saved he forms part of the church, and is therefore in a safe place?
JT He is brought into an entirely new sphere. A great many think safety from judgment in the future constitutes salvation; there is deliverance from judgment, but the true idea of salvation is complete deliverance from a world dominated by the devil. You are brought into a sphere where Christ is law.
Ques Where did Israel get [p. 288] their salvation?
JT Their salvation involved a change of place, to begin with. You could not say that they had salvation in Egypt. You might say they were safe and justified as sheltered by the blood, but they were not saved until they were on the other side of the sea, their enemies having been destroyed by the judgment of God.
Rem You can see clearly in Acts 1 that the one hundred and twenty have salvation, but all in connection with a glorified Christ.
JT In Acts 1 the Lord Jesus Christ is seen going up into heaven. If it be a question simply of announcing what is in heaven, and Christ personally, all was true in Acts 1. The Lord was in heaven, and redemption accomplished; but what was down here? Could you preach the gospel under those conditions? My belief is that the idea of the gospel with many is that it could be preached in Acts 1. While Christ was on earth there was preaching: the kingdom was there in His Person; but after He left, there was no preaching till the Holy Ghost came. The presence of the Holy Ghost involved a sphere in which salvation from the world-system was found; to this the Lord added such as should be saved. The gospel announces Christ as Head and Lord. As Head He is righteousness for man: this might have been preached in Acts 1; but to preach Christ as Lord without the Holy Ghost down here, would be to announce the title without the power to sustain it. Christ being Lord insures practical deliverance for those who obey Him, and this could not be unless the Holy Ghost came and established the kingdom where man is. The kingdom is established in heaven because Christ is there, but it is here because the Holy Ghost is here.
JP There cannot be any question about that, because you would have nothing practically aside from what is established down [p. 289] here.
JT You might have the announcement of Christ as glorified, but without including the wonderful sphere formed here by the Holy Ghost practical salvation from the world-system is not available. There may be a measure of preaching as to what Christ has done, and one might even get so far as to know the forgiveness of sins, but salvation is an impossibility without a divine Person down here. He is here in a divinely formed vessel — the church.
JB I know people get beclouded about the church, because they speak of the church as it actually exists here today, instead of looking at it as set up at the beginning. It is in looking at the church as set up at the beginning that I get right thoughts about it.
JT I cannot understand any one who is at all acquainted with the testimony of Scripture, refusing the thought that salvation was found practically in the church, or how it can be thought that this weakens the truth that it is in Christ. If you were to suppose a city in a colony of Great Britain falling prey to an adverse power, the inhabitants would say that their salvation was in the king, and their great effort would be to make their condition known to the king; and the king, if true to his office, would do all in his power to relieve that city. Now the fact that the king knew, and that salvation lay in him, did not release the city nor relieve the sufferings of its inhabitants. What would be glad tidings to those sufferers? Glad tidings would be that the British fleet was in sight, with a British army on board. The proof of the king’s favour is the presence of the fleet and the army to raise the siege and relieve the city. That is what the Lord Jesus Christ has done. He has, so to speak, sent the fleet and the army. The Holy Ghost came, and this meant an almighty power here acting in men for the good of men. Of course, with this, God ever acts sovereignly, in the new birth,
[p. 290] for instance. This is always true, and without it men would not avail themselves of what the gospel presents.
Rem Those who come to Christ form part of that which He would use, and should they not be in readiness for the service? Wherever He calls them they would willingly go.
JT That is what comes out in the Acts. The gospel goes out through those in the church.
RSS The Lord uses the saints who form the church to spread the glad tidings.
JB Philip was sent to the Ethiopian eunuch.
Ques Would you say that the mind of God is that men should have salvation?
JT I know it is. A present salvation for all men is what the gospel announces. “For the grace of God, which carries with it salvation for all men, has appeared”, Titus 2:11. At the beginning there was a place of salvation, and “the Lord added to the church daily such as should he saved”. Acts 2: 47.
JB I do not think in emphasising the greatness and glory of the assembly, we in any way detract from the present glory of Christ, because His glory is there.
Rem So the importance of keeping to the company of the saints is emphasised in this epistle. “Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together”. Hebrews 10: 25.
JT It is assumed that these saints had primarily received the truth, and if they neglected what had been received, there was no escape.
Ques You would say that practically all the preaching in the Acts went out from the assembly.
JT That is a simple statement of facts.
Rem I suppose there is an individual side to salvation.
JT In what I have been saying I have not had individual experience in view at all. I have been speaking of the assembly as built by the Lord, and [p. 291] indwelt by the Holy Ghost, and what was found in it as such. If it be a question of individual experience, one has to grow up to salvation, and you always maintain connection with Christ in heaven by faith. Romans furnishes the instruction necessary for this, and there the soul is led on to the truth of the church.
JP We are so apt to form our thoughts of the assembly from what we see about us, instead of going back to the beginning and getting God’s thoughts about it. You must get your thought of the assembly from God and the Scriptures.
JB In Peter’s day the assembly was of sufficient importance to him so that after he went down on that wonderful mission to Cornelius he returned to it to rehearse the whole matter to the saints. I do not think the assembly has enough importance in many of our souls. I think we have been satisfied with knowledge of salvation from an eternal death, and so have not been led on into what has been spoken of here as to the new sphere; and I do not think we can realise a present salvation apart from the new sphere of things.
WJN Going back for a moment to a remark regarding an individual work in souls, it is important to see that while there is a company, and salvation is connected with it, we must guard against being content with what belongs to the company without personal exercise.
JT So a subjective work is necessary with each one of us. By the “pure mental milk of the word” we “grow up to salvation”. 1 Peter 2: 2. We should ever bear in mind that the new system is connected with Christ in heaven as the Head and Centre of it.
JP Interesting as individual exercise may be, it is not the line in the first of Hebrews.
JT The great point in Hebrews 1 is the Person who has spoken. In the beginning of chapter 2 we see [p. 292] the great salvation.
WJN In regard to salvation spoken by the Lord, do you think those who heard His word, and turned to Him, were in a sense saved?
JT For the moment they found protection under the Lord, for the reason that the kingdom of God was there in Him.
JP He says to the Father, “When I was with them I kept them in thy name”. John 17: 12. That was a great thing, to be kept in the Father’s name.
JT It is a most blessed thought: the Lord kept those whom the Father gave Him. I think every believer ought to be able to give an account of how he is kept at the present time. The apostles were kept while the Lord was with them. How are we being kept? We have been kept as set by the Spirit in relation to Christ and the saints. Believing on Christ, a man receives the Holy Ghost, who places him in relation to the saints — the sphere of His blessed activity. It is in this connection salvation lies at the present time. We all know and gladly own it is the Lord’s hand that is keeping us — we are kept by the power of God — but it is all a question of the “modus operandi” — how God actually keeps us in a practical way.
Rem The thing is to get with the saints whenever you can, even if we have to give up a good many other things in order to do it.