UNITY AND PREACHING
UNITY AND PREACHING
JP Would you say a word on the difference between the first and second parts of this chapter? I suppose this second part is all present?
JT I suggested the portion read because I think it presents the assembly in relation to the testimony of God at the present time. The first part views the assembly placed in the heavenlies in relation to eternal purpose.
JP So the first part is anticipatory in its character?
JT Yes, but this part of the chapter treats of what was present; that is to say, what they were actually at Ephesus; and, in a wider sense, what the church, as a whole, was down here.
JP I suppose that condition of things at Ephesus was the bloom of the church. God was free, as it were, to bring all these things out in connection with that particular assembly. In Ephesus there was by the work of God in the saints, an answer to His mind in regard to the assembly.
JT Yes. I take Ephesus to be what you might call the summer of the church (if one might be allowed to use a figure of that kind). I think the church has had its springtime and summer; I fancy it is now having its winter.
JP It was midsummer at Ephesus.
JT Yes, things were in bloom. I gather this from the record of it in the Acts. From the manner in which things are presented there, I think the formation of the assembly in its world-wide character begins properly at Corinth. The apostle speaks of laying the foundation and planting there, but when you come to Ephesus, it is bloom.
JP We get the chief corner stone in Ephesus.
[p. 192] While it might be said that there has to be a foundation for the chief corner stone, still there is this important distinction: the one is the beginning, the other is the climax.
JT The chief corner stone was seen and prominent. There was not much to see at Corinth. There is nothing to see when you plant a seed, or when a foundation is laid. The foundation is not seen, but a handsome corner stone is to be seen, and this is what was to be seen, morally, at Ephesus.
JP Yes, I remember distinctly some years ago one of the Lord’s servants, in speaking of the apostle and his ministry, said the foundation of the structure was laid at Corinth, and it reached its climax at Ephesus.
JT Yes, Paul had laid the foundation and had planted the seed at Corinth.
JP We naturally connect brightness and sunshine with midsummer, but, as a matter of fact, even in winter we do occasionally get a little sunshine, and I believe the Lord would, in His grace, even now in the wintertime of the assembly’s history, afford some sunshine. Do you not think so?
JT Yes, I do.
Ques Would you say the sun is low in the horizon?
JT I think the flowers, so to speak, have disappeared. Instead of the blessed fruit of the testimony of God, as there was in the beginning of the church’s history, you have now that which is of man. The apostle records in 2 Timothy the order of things that was then becoming patent. It was not the blessed fruits of the testimony of God, but fruits of the flesh, which latter had become active in the house of God.
JP I would like to be clear about that first part of Ephesians 2. You say the assembly is seen there in the heavenlies, and that must have regard to the [p. 193] future, and the eternal purpose of God. I suppose you mean the eternal purpose of God in actual accomplishment and display. I should like to know how far we can take up the first part of chapter 2 at the present time?
JT I do not think we can take it up at all in a literal sense.
JP Then if you connect the idea of Canaan exclusively with the first part of chapter 2 and you say that cannot be taken up at the present time, that is equivalent to saying we cannot reach Canaan now.
JT That would be the conclusion. If Canaan refers to heaven literally it must be altogether relegated to the future, for the reason that the Lord never indicated to the disciples that they were to go up to heaven until He returned to take them there. What He presented as privilege, in view of His absence, was that He would come to them: “I will come to you”. John 14: 18.
JP That is what we had before us a little yesterday afternoon, and in that sense you think we get into the land now?
JT Yes.
JP We may find association with Him now. The truth of God here should be made clear for the beloved saints, who have a difficulty regarding it. I think the difficulty arises from the form of the language, if I may so speak, in the opening part of this chapter: “Hath quickened us together with Christ ( ... ) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus”. Ephesians 2: 5,6. That seems as if it were spoken of as having present accomplishment.
JT Yes, but I think it is anticipative: its bearing refers to the future, for immediately following that, it says: “That in the ages to come, he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. Ephesians 2: 7. It has the ages [p. 194] to come in view clearly. We can, however, regard the saints as in heavenly places now morally.
JP And I suppose it is set before us that we might be in the light and enjoyment of it now?
JT I think it indicates the position of the church in the divine sphere. It is the place given the church by God in His great love. This should affect us profoundly.
JP I think it is plain from the way the assembly is spoken of in the end of chapter 1 (as the fulness of Him who fills all in all) that its place is in the heavenlies.
JT Yes, our place is on high: there can be no doubt about that. The place of the assembly is in heaven, and things are to take form and character from her as coming down from above. In the future, relief for the creation depends on what comes down from above — not on anything that comes from below; and that is to a large extent the thought of heaven. It is the source of good and blessing. “Every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from above, from the Father of lights, with whom is no variation nor shadow of turning”. James 1: 17. Everything comes down from above, hence the holy city comes down from above. She is seen coming down as a bride adorned for her husband: coming down from God out of heaven.
JP The coming down of the city from God really introduces and brings about the wonderful day of the display of Christ’s glory here. You cannot have any day of display here until the assembly, or city, comes down from God out of heaven.
JT That is the beginning of things publicly. The saints, in a moral sense, come down from God out of heaven even now; if they do not, they cannot represent Him down here. God’s thought was to shine out morally in the church, and the church at Ephesus had furnished an opportunity for it, because, as I said [p. 195] before, Ephesus is, as it were, the bloom of the church. Things were flourishing. Paul had planted, Apollos had watered, and, I think, Ephesus was, in a sense, the “increase”. You get the planting in Acts 18, that was at Corinth; and in the end of that chapter you get Apollos, who was the waterer; he comes upon the scene there, and in chapter 19 you get Ephesus.
Ques What do you mean by coming down out of heaven?
JT That is the idea that Scripture gives; all that is of God must come out of heaven.
Ques I mean in connection with us here now, as we are?
JT The idea is that you are heavenly: you belong to heaven, and even now you are brought into the divine sphere. That was the case with the Ephesians: they were brought into the divine sphere. Unless you are brought into it you cannot represent God here. The land of Canaan now is association with Christ. This is assembly privilege, although we do not leave the earth literally, privilege is essentially heavenly.
Rem You cannot know much about God unless you come from His presence.
JT You must know what it is to be in His sphere.
JP That is a principle of the greatest importance, and I think it runs all through Scripture. In John 3 the Lord speaks of Himself to Nicodemus thus: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. John 3: 13. There was a Man who could speak of Himself as having come down from heaven, and hence His competency to bear testimony as to what is in heaven. He is competent, as having come down from above. The One from above was here and gave testimony as to what is [p. 196] above.
JT What we have been saying as to coming down from above, reverses the whole order of things from the popular point of view, because the common thought is what is going above. What comes down from above is the thought we should get hold of. God intends to affect things down here by what is above, and things come down from above. You know the common idea is what is going above to stay, but that is really the very reverse of Scripture. Although the church is not seen on the earth after the rapture, yet Revelation 21 presents it as in relation to the earth both in the millennium and eternal state. Scripture leaves it as “with men”.
Ques If you were to die today, you would go to heaven, would you not?
JT Scripture puts it differently. It says, “To depart, and to be with Christ”. Philippians 1: 23.
Ques In the future we are to come from above, but in the meantime we are going above: we are going to be with Him. That is heaven, is it not?
JT It is not disclosed where we are going, except that we are going to be with Christ. I suppose if you were to ask ninety-nine out of one hundred men in the world about the world to come — what they call the other world, they would understand you to mean heaven. I think the common idea of heaven is Utopian.
JP In all I have asked you I do not wish to divert you from what we see here before us in this passage. I think it is a great point, and I hope the Lord will give us some present help to see the assembly in relation to the testimony of God.
JT Yes, that is what concerns us most for the moment. The assembly must come down from above, morally. I think you would conclude that those people who were at Ephesus came down from above, morally: they were not produced by any elements down here.
[p. 197] Ques Would you mind my getting clear about the thought of going to heaven? When a boy I used to sing, “There is a happy land far far away”, and I think that is a good deal in our minds yet.
JP They have modified it on the second line, and it is, “Not far away” now.
JT I think our brother is quite right: in the minds of most people it is a question of what is far away. The thought is wrong.
JP So it is. It is remarkable that in the New Testament Scriptures which speak of the death of the saints, the thought of going to heaven does not once occur; it is to be with the Person. “To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise;” Luke 23: 43. “Having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ;” Philippians 1: 23. “Absent from the body, present with the Lord;” 2 Corinthians 5: 8, and Peter speaks of putting off his tabernacle; of his departure, or decease. That is the way it is expressed. In Revelation 14: 13, we get, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth”. That properly has no present application.
RSS I suppose the reason why so little is said in regard to what our brother was speaking of, is that it is incidental, it simply comes in in the meantime? The normal thing is really the coming of the Lord.
JP Which properly is not the rapture, but His appearing. This is when He comes the second time apart from sin unto salvation.
RSS The normal thing is, “We which are alive and remain”. 1 Thessalonians 4: 15. Would you not say so?
JT “We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep”. 1 Thessalonians 4: 15.
RSS What I meant to say is, the normal thing is not that we should die, but that we are alive and remain until the Lord comes: but we cannot hold out: our bodies get so weak we fall asleep, and there is not much said about that [p. 198] condition.
JP If some do fall asleep the comfort given is “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. 1 Thessalonians 4: 14. What follows is really a parenthesis, to make clear how God will bring them with Him; but the truth raised there is that all the saints are coming back: God is going to bring them with Him: “Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. 1 Thessalonians 4: 14. That beloved servant of the Lord, who was with us here in this city a little over two years ago, just before he went to be with the Lord, said (when somebody mentioned in his room, in his hearing, Our sister Mrs. So and So is gone), I suppose you will be saying about me before long that I am gone, but I am coming out with Christ when He comes in His glory. That is the true expectation of the saints.
JT The thing for us to have clearly before our minds is God, and God has come out in testimony, for blessing, and I think He has given indications as to the sphere of the blessing.
Ques Is your thought that that which testifies of heaven must come out of heaven, in order to affect the earth?
JT Yes, I think all good must come out of heaven. The thought is that God has created the earth to be inhabited by man, and His intention is to bring blessing into the earth, and the way by which He brings in blessing is that He comes in Himself; if God is here, all is well.
Ques Would you connect that with the verse in Proverbs, “My delights were with the sons of men”? Proverbs 8: 31.
JT That is Christ and His associates, I judge, but God intended to bring in blessing, and He would bring in blessing by coming in Himself; that is to say, the dwelling-place of God involves blessing.
Ques Then if the assembly is any witness and testimony here it must come from God first?
JT So morally the first part of the chapter has [p. 199] application in that way; that we are brought into God’s sphere on account of His great love wherewith He has loved us; we are quickened together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That is God’s thought about us, and I think that has taken place in a moral sense; we are brought into the sphere of God’s love, and it is in that way we are qualified to come out for God.
Rem You said at the beginning of this meeting that what we get after the eleventh verse is what the assembly is here actually.
JT Yes, what it was actually at the beginning.
Rem I suppose the first and second chapters of Genesis set forth in a way the things we have before us: God’s purpose is shown in the blessing of man down here, etc.
JT I think the idea of blessing came out in Abraham, but it never took form properly until the Holy Ghost came here.
Ques What do you understand by the blessing coming through Abraham?
JT I think the blessing of Abraham must lie for us in the Holy Ghost, at the present time. The blessing of Abraham is said to have arrived at the nations in Christ, but it came to them in a practical way in the Holy Ghost.
Rem They were strangers from the covenants of promise. “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world”. Ephesians 2: 11,12.
JT That is the point. They were atheists — that is the meaning of the term “without God”.
[p. 200] They did not have God: there was no God for them. That was the state of the Gentiles.
Rem I got much help in regard to the seed of Abraham in Galatians, in seeing that the promise to Abraham’s seed was in connection with faith — not in connection with natural descent.
Ques It says, “That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith”. Galatians 3: 14. You said a moment ago the Holy Ghost brings these things to us?
JT The question is: Has the blessing come in or not? and if the blessing has come in, the next point is: In what way?
Rem We have nothing to do with Abraham now that Christ has come.
JT We are all children of Abraham on the principle of faith.
Rem I understood when Christ came it put an end to all this.
JT We have to take things up morally. Abraham is the father of the faithful: the father of all those that believe. It is remarkable how the Spirit takes up expressions in the Old Testament. Abraham being the father of a great multitude (that is the meaning of his name), referred to Christians — we are included in the multitude, see Romans 4.
Rem The promise never passed away.
JT We are the multitude come into the blessing of Abraham. But I should like to have it clear as to how the blessing came in, and my thought is that the church was the vessel of the blessing in a practical sense.
JP Our attention is often called to figures, but we hardly take in the bearing of the figures.
In regard to the blessing, if you look at Colossians, the Spirit is only mentioned once in that epistle, but in Ephesians He is very prominent, and hence the blessing. The blessing was at Ephesus [p. 201] evidently.
JT The apostle proceeds to state here that enmity had been removed: where enmity had been, unity and peace were established. The Lord had annulled the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances, and had reconciled both Jew and Gentile in one body by the cross. Then the next point is preaching.
JP Yes, the reconciliation in Christ, and then the preaching in verse 17.
JT I think that is the divine order. You must have unity established, for you cannot have blessing without that. The blessing follows the unity. The Lord had brought unity to pass, and then He becomes the Preacher. He preached the glad tidings of peace to those that were afar off, and to those that were nigh. How could you preach the glad tidings if the blessing was not there? But Christ had effected unity in one body, and hence the blessing was there.
JP There could not have been preaching seeing that the Lord had left the earth, until that was effected.
JT If it be a question of what was effected in heaven, all was accomplished in Acts 1 but salvation was not possible without a divine Person on earth, Acts 2 presents a divine Person here in the house, and hence the preaching.
Ques Do you not see that order in John 20? Christ comes into their midst saying, “Peace be unto you” then, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost” (John 20:19; John 20:22); He also speaks of sending them out.
JT That is it.
RSS Psalm 133 indicates the order: “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! ... there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore”. Psalm 133: 1,3.
JT That is the blessing of Abraham — life for evermore: there, no doubt, it refers to what is still future, but at the outset the blessing took form in [p. 202] the church. I think this passage (and that is why I suggested it) brings in the thought of unity — what the Lord Jesus Christ has brought to pass down here. He has brought unity to pass by reconciling Jew and Gentile in one body by the cross and the blessing depends on that, and then we have the preaching: “And coming he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh”. Ephesians 2: 17.
Ques That is the nations and the Jews?
JT Yes, all are included, but you must have the blessing first — the blessing was there.
RSS The question might be asked: What exactly is the blessing? Would you say it is life?
JT I think the blessing, in the purest sense, must be life eternal. If you take account of the state of man you must conclude nothing could be blessing to him short of life. What could be blessing to him other than that? You might give him blessings down here in the flesh, but what good would they be to him? He has to die. The Spirit being here in the assembly involves that God is dwelling here, and blessing is in consequence of this. Every blessing is found where God dwells.
JP You might even, in a sense, relieve man of wants, but if you stop short of life — eternal life — you stop short really of that which is the blessing.
Ques Would you say the reason there are so few cases of blessing now is on account of the condition of the church?
JT Yes. There is but little to attract people: the blessing is not apparent.
Ques It is outward unity here, is it not?
JT Not outward unity only: it was vital. At the beginning where enmity had been the Lord established unity: but where the Lord had established unity, man has introduced enmity. Discord and enmity are what mark the church now. Where [p. 203] is the blessing now? What is there to speak about? The state of things in Christendom is just as bad as what pervaded the empire prior to Christianity. What is there but avarice, rivalry, pride, and every other trait of man in the flesh?
JP See the striking moral similarity between the end of Romans 1 and 2 Timothy 3!
JT You called attention last night to what man was without God “Hateful, and hating one another”, Titus 3: 3 etc. That was the state of man naturally. Now salvation delivered from all that. I think the idea of salvation is that you are brought into an entirely new sphere, where there is nothing of that kind, but where instead, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost abound. That was what marked the beginning of things. There was the external world, the world of the flesh, which was marked by those things to which you called attention, and now God brings in another system, an entirely different one — one with nothing at all of the world in it.
God’s sphere is brought to pass by Christ, but brought to pass in relation to the testimony of God down here. That is seen in this passage. The Lord brought unity to pass, and the blessing follows upon unity; then the preaching — the universal preaching to those who were afar off, and to those who were nigh.
JP I can see more clearly than ever I did the divine idea here in connection with preaching. It pre-supposes the establishment down here of that which is according to God.
JT Yes, it always supposes building, so far as I see. The first preacher was Noah.
JP That is, he was the first man called a preacher.
JT Yes, and he really was not the preacher — Christ was the Preacher.
JP Yes, that is clear in 1 Peter 3. It was the Spirit of [p. 204] Christ.
JT Christ has always been the Preacher. In 1 Peter 4 we read, “The glad tidings were preached to the dead also, that they might be judged, as regards men, after the flesh, but live, as regards God, after the Spirit”. 1 Peter 4: 6. Christ has been preaching all the time, and He is now preaching.
JR The way in which you have spoken of this has been a real encouragement to me. When a certain beloved brother, and devoted servant of the Lord, died, over twenty years ago, I remember the looks of some of the saints, as they said: What are we going to do now he is dead? Well, I say, The Preacher is not dead; the Minister is not dead. What are we going to do for ministry? The Minister is not dead; the Preacher is not dead, and, thank God, He never will die.
JT I do not think that Noah was much of a preacher after the flood. You do not hear of his preaching after that, but the preaching went on, and it does still.
JP It goes on notwithstanding the fact that those who may have been, for the moment, the vessels through whom Christ has preached, may die. They are but vessels.
JT And they may become unfaithful and cease preaching. Preaching went on after the flood. Abraham was preached to, but there is no evidence of Noah having preached, although he lived a long time after that event.
JP One would not expect it from the solemn picture the Spirit of God gives of him, lying drunk in his tent. That would hardly seem a suitable vessel for preaching.
JT I do not think that God is shut up to any particular man: the preaching will go on whether men go on or not, and the thing is to be in accord with God. He goes on building and preaching no matter how men treat Him, The longsuffering of God came [p. 205] out in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing. For a long period God, as it were, continued to build and preach, although nobody believed Him. There was no answer to the preaching, but nevertheless there was no stopping in the building and the preaching. That is a very encouraging thing at the present time. Take this country for instance: you do not see much result nowadays, but still God goes on building and preaching. If men do not get benefited, this much comes to pass: the longsuffering of God is demonstrated by it.
The thing to see is what God brought in at the outset: He brought the assembly to pass. Really Christ brought unity and blessing to pass. Nobody solicited it: nobody invited the Lord to do it, but He comes and brings out what was in God’s heart, and brings the blessing close to man.
Rem After all this has been accomplished, then the preaching goes out.
JP What did you say grew at Ephesus?
JT “The word of the Lord”.
JP You were saying that in this chapter we see the assembly in relation to the testimony?
JT Yes, and the apostle was greatly concerned. He was the mouthpiece of Christ, so to say. He was to be the herald of the glad tidings, and was very anxious that he should be able to speak with boldness. He asked the prayers of the saints “That I may be bold in it as I ought to speak”. Ephesians 6: 20.
JP I quite agree with you. No doubt the assembly was set up at Ephesus, but I think you would say the Lord also had a great work at Thessalonica, for from there the word of the Lord sounded out in all Macedonia and Achaia.
RSS It is very encouraging to think that the testimony has been extended in a westerly direction.
If God has commenced a work in this country, we ought to be exercised to further it, as [p. 206] individuals.
JT The thing is to be in His service; to be vessels sanctified and meet for the Master’s use. If such, He can make good use of the vessel. The great point is to yield yourself to Christ.
Ques I should like to ask how you connect the “habitation ... in the Spirit” with what was established?
JT What was established was the habitation of God. God came down here and took up His abode in the assembly. That is seen in this passage: “So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God ... built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”. Ephesians 2: 19, 22.
Ques I have been thinking of the blessing of Abraham in connection with what we have been having. In regard to Zion, “There the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore”. Psalm 133: 3. It seems to me what we have here is life for evermore. Is it not?
JT Yes, life for evermore is the blessing; and this, as I said, took form in the church in the power of the Holy Ghost.
Ques In speaking of preaching, it was not the Lord personally preaching, because He was never seen after His resurrection. Of course He came to His disciples, saying, “Peace be unto you”, (John 20: 19) etc., but He never spoke to the world.
JT No, not personally, but He is the great Overseer. For instance, take a great emperor or king; he controls everything. If anything is to be done in his kingdom, he tells his prominent men to do so and so; while he has not done it himself, still it is regarded that it is he who has done it. Now the Lord is the supreme, universal Director of everything. It is so even in regard to departed spirits. They are with the Lord: not at the right hand of God: it means that they are in His sphere: He is taking care of them.
[p. 207] The king of England does not come to Canada very often, but he is doing many things in Canada, and all over his colonies, and just so it is with Christ.
Christ is the great Preacher, but, as in the case of Noah, the preaching is through men down here. We read, “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”. 1 Peter 3: 20. Wonderful longsuffering! Preaching to disobedient people.
Rem God was vindicated in that case.
JT Yes, His longsuffering came out.
Ques Will you speak a word of two about eternal life as connected with the church?
JT I think the question was that the blessing of Abraham had arrived at the nations. Where the Holy Ghost brings unity to pass among men, you get eternal life.
Rem I was thinking eternal life came out in the 18th verse “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father”. Ephesians 2: 18.
JT No, I should not call that eternal life quite. I think it is involved in it, however: but the saints were set in relation to Christ, and to one another, in righteousness and love, and then they lived. Instead of being in the sphere of death — the world system — they came into the sphere of life. Coming into the Christian circle at the beginning, meant coming into the sphere of life.
Rem They lived in the love of God.
Ques I was thinking of the passage, “This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”. John 17: 3. This would involve access to the Father?
JT The thought of life was that it came in consequent upon unity. You get a company of saints together in the unity of the Holy Ghost, and you have every evidence of life there.
JP [p. 208] In other words, the question of eternal life is a question of certain conditions, and all those conditions were there in that wonderful circle.
JT That is it.
JP That is what you meant by saying life for evermore was there.
JT Yes, it must have been. Everything of God must be there.
JP I think in a way it is very beautiful to see the form in which the blessing has arrived at the nations. It is in the Holy Ghost. Everything lies in the Holy Ghost subjectively. Life lies in the Holy Ghost. If you admit the Holy Ghost is in the church, all good dwells there Spirit-wise. “Built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”. Ephesians 2: 22. That really involves everything.
Ques I have a little difficulty in this way. You spoke of what conies down from above. To me what came down from above reverts back to knowledge of divine Persons, and in that way we get eternal life. It means the knowledge of divine Persons.
JT It does, but I think the idea is that God would bring in the elements of blessing. He would bring into this scene the elements of heaven, and as a consequence men would live. That will actually take place in the future, but has now taken place in the church, and I do not think we could have denied it had we been at Ephesus, or Antioch, or Jerusalem. It could not be denied that the elements of life were there, and they were placed there by God. That was the testimony on the part of God to Christ: “For this is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning his Son”. 1 John 5: 9. “And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son”. 1 John 5: 11. God had given to the saints eternal life, and that was the witness on the part of God to Christ.
Rem That is the blessing.
JT It is the blessing and the witness too. The [p. 209] record that God has given of Christ is that He has given to the saints eternal life, and that this life is in His Son.
JP Do you think that point in 1 John 5 is clear to all of us? I do not think it is: I mean what you said about the witness being in the saints.
JT It was a question of God bearing testimony to His Son, and the testimony was that He had given to the saints eternal life. I think it could be seen there at Jerusalem, or at Ephesus. If you came in contact with those Christians you would at once see the elements of life. You can see from their conduct what a wonderful sphere they were brought into. They abandoned all in the world, and did not seem to think they had lost anything, or made any sacrifice.
JP And the result was, the word of God multiplied. “Thus with might the word of the Lord increased and prevailed”. Acts 19: 20.
JT In a certain sense, all Asia was illuminated through Ephesus. The preaching was by Paul, but he was identified with the assembly.
RSS What was characteristic of them was their faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints. It was love that characterised them.
JT I think our great concern at the present time should be to be set in relation to one another. That is the testimony of God. God is love, and the testimony of God is love. “God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him”. 1 John 4: 8. So I think if we get close to one another in love there will be at least something of God apparent.
Ques Is there any connection between what you were just saying and what you get in the twenty-second verse of this chapter? “In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit”? Ephesians 2: 22.
JT Yes. I suppose verse 21 really looks on to the future “In whom all the building fitly framed [p. 210] together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord” (Ephesians 2: 21) but already they were the habitation of God down here.
JR The point about the testimony is not quite understood (I am not speaking for myself). Would you mind reverting for a moment to 1 John 5? The point that is not understood is that in the saints the testimony is given as to the Son of God.
JT I think the passage clearly states that: “If we receive the witness of men the witness of God is greater for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. 1 John 5: 9 - 11. That was the witness, and if people do not believe that witness they make God a liar, because it was God’s testimony. It was an unquestionable testimony.
JP Many beloved saints have had the idea it was certain passages in Scripture.
JT The saints were to be the testimony.
JP How do you think this would go with it: “Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us, Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”. 1 John 4: 11 - 14.
JT I do indeed think that goes with it. I do not think anybody can testify to God unless it be those who know God in love. One might preach a good sermon, and not know God in love. In consequence of the rejection of Israel the testimony was bound up, and the law sealed among the disciples.
[p. 211] Ques Why is it we get so mixed up in time of trouble?
JP I suppose the only remedy for that is to get into the secret of His tabernacle, then you will have a good time in the time of trouble. Time of trouble will be to you an exceeding good time.
JT I think we are extremely defective in regard to the church — what a marvellous thing it is!
JP I feel how little we understand what it is. I never was so impressed regarding the magnitude of it.
JT The ark was a marvellous thing, capable of withstanding all it had to contend with. We do not hear of any accidents on the way. Every animal came out that went in.
I think every single thought of God in the future will be seen. They have all been preserved and carried through. There are no new developments to come out. God has given expression to every thought of His, and all are preserved.
JP You do not go in then for New Truth?
JT Nothing new. Everything is preserved; all housed, as it were, in the ark, and awaiting the time of display.
Rem That is the church.
Rem What other place is there for the activities of the love of Christ?
JT No other place: there is no other sphere where His affections are active except in the church.
JP In the world people are “hateful, and hating one another”. Titus 3: 3. That is what is characteristic of the world.
JT But the idea of the assembly is that “righteousness, and peace, and joy, in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14: 17) are to be characteristic of it. A direct contrast to all in the world. Salvation meant leaving one sphere for the other. So salvation for Noah really meant leaving the world so corrupted, and [p. 212] entering on a world that was purified. Salvation for him meant “saved by water”, and we are all “saved by water”. 1 Peter 3: 20. Of course, Noah and his house were saved in the ark from that in which all others perished, but the flood was a mercy because of the state of things in the world.
JP I have often thought of Noah’s experience. You see he was an old man when he went into the ark, and must have been very familiar with the old order of things; must have known a good deal of the terrible character of it; hence when he comes into the new world one can readily understand what a keen appreciation he must have had of it all. What a wonderful thing salvation must have been to Noah! How real it was!
RSS Could we have a word about “Through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father”? (Ephesians 2: 18) Is the thought there approach to God?
JT 1 think so. I think it is perhaps what you might call our highest privilege. We have access to the Father.
JP. I suppose in accompaniment with what you have said, the service of God is taken up?
JT Yes, but I think this is set forth here more to show the privilege of these Gentiles. The apostle says, as it were, See the wonderful privilege accorded to you. We (Jew and Gentile) have both access by one Spirit now.
JP And it is set in contrast to that previous verse, where one is described as being in the world “Having no hope, and without God in the world”. Ephesians 2: 12. The people who were in that terrible condition were brought into this wonderful sphere where this marvellous privilege belongs to them. It belongs to all alike who are there.
Ques Is that something like Psalm 134? It speaks of the priests standing day and night in His temple serving.
JT [p. 213] I have no doubt the thought is there.
Ques Is not the privilege extended beyond that of Judaism?
JT They never had access to God.
JP The priests had access to God in a sense, but no one had access to the Father.
Rem Going back a little to your illustration of the ark, and how they all came out of the ark in good order: in all that there was a sweet savour to God.
JT The Lord smelled a sweet savour, and then He says, “I will not again curse”, etc. Genesis 8: 21. It conveys an idea as to what the new world is to God as based on the sacrifice of Christ. It really refers to the coming age, but I think, as we have said frequently, it all finds its answer morally in the church now. I think God finds a sweet savour in the Christian assembly. Christ, personally, when here on earth, was that to Him, but the disciples were to bear fruit for the Father. (See John 15, and Ephesians 5: 2). There was to be that in the Christian circle which was pleasing to the Father. In Leviticus 23 Christ and the church are seen in resurrection. The idea of “first-fruits” is connected with both.
Ques What would you say was the difference between this (having access to the Father), and having boldness to enter the holiest by the blood of Jesus?
JT I think this would call more for affection. I would connect this more with the land of Canaan; access to the Father I think involves the land of Canaan. It involves having to say to the Father in privilege. I think entrance into the holiest of all is apprehension: it is more connected with the mind. I think too, the idea of the holiest is that it stands connected with the wilderness.
Rem You would connect the holiest [p. 214] with the wilderness and that which can be grasped with the mind.
JT It is what you apprehend, with the spiritual mind. What you see (by the Spirit, of course), so to say, because you go in there to contemplate.
JP Entrance in Scripture is generally a figure of apprehension.
RSS I think those two words privilege and apprehension are very helpful in connection with the Scriptures we were speaking of, and I am thankful for them.
JP Yes, and the practical connection is very clear in Hebrews. You are in the wilderness there, and the value of entrance into the holiest is seen. Its effect is seen in your ability to come out and take up what is connected with Christian responsibility in the wilderness, but here in Ephesians I think, as our brother said, it really involves the land, because it is the scene of privilege, and present privilege, too.