ASSOCIATION WITH CHRIST IN THE ASSEMBLY AS RISEN WITH HIM, PRESENT CHRISTIAN PRIVILEGE
[p. 166] ASSOCIATION WITH CHRIST IN THE ASSEMBLY AS RISEN WITH HIM, PRESENT CHRISTIAN PRIVILEGE
Colossians 2: 9 - 23; 3: 1 - 4
RSS At the close of our meeting yesterday afternoon, the question was raised as to whether the subject of the house of God and living stones did not also include the thought of association with Christ. Again, last night our brother, speaking of sonship, led us along pretty well in the same line, and I think we might have something this afternoon which would follow up these subjects.
There cannot be anything greater before us than what you were leading up to last night — namely, the service of God in the way you spoke of it. Would you not say that it would indicate what might occupy us hereafter?
JT Yes, I think so. I have no doubt at all that the service of God will have application to the New Jerusalem.
JP It is in connection with the heavenly city you get the expression, “His servants shall serve him”. Revelation 22: 3.
JT Yes, I thought of that in Revelation 22. It says further, “And they shall see his face”. I think it must be very evident that all this depends on the liberty in which the saints are with God. I think the heavenly city sets forth the idea of sonship it is in liberty.
RSS “Jerusalem which is above is free”. Galatians 4: 26.
JP I suppose Revelation 22 presents the thing in perfection. It is in contrast to what marks Christendom now.
JT Yes. Historically you can see how it came to pass. The Lord began divine service on the [p. 167] ground of sonship, but I think He intended to associate others with Him in the service, and for that they required to be liberated — brought consciously into sonship. I think that came to pass historically in the church. The Lord set the disciples free: He brought them on to His own platform before the Father, and gave them the Spirit; then they went forth in service. I think that was the order.
JP Service is in view in Hebrews from the very beginning. It is there you get, “It became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory”, etc. Hebrews 2: 10.
RSS When you speak of service, is it service Godward that is in your mind?
JT Pretty much, only the term is a very large one. It would involve all that God would have effected. As to Israel, God said, “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Exodus 4: 23. No doubt God had in mind to effect great things through Israel, but their service to Him was to be on the ground of their being liberated from Egypt and brought to Himself.
JP There is a marvellous thought in what we have before us. God would not shut Himself up to Himself, but has embraced man in His wonderful thoughts. Even with regard to Israel; Israel had the first place with God as to the earth, but His purpose embraced many others.
JT Yes, I think He intended to set up Israel in the midst of a system of nations, but Israel was to have the place of sonship with God; and I think you can understand how the other nations would come into the benefit of the favour in which Israel would be with God. God intended to establish a system of His own (I think that is clear enough), and in order to do that He must have His people. He would establish a system of His own, with Israel as the centre of it, but Israel was first to be in liberty with God, so He says, “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Exodus 4: 23.
JP Thus the idea of service becomes very wide, because it really embraces all that God had before Him; all that He is going to effect and bring to pass.
JT Yes, and in order to have His people as the instruments through which to bring it to pass, they must be liberated. What God meant to do, as I said, was to establish Israel as the centre of a system of nations and they were to be in liberty with Him; to be, indeed the expression of His power, but, as we know, they failed in all this, so all has to be taken up in Christ. The Lord takes up the whole history of Israel in His own Person; but still, even as to Israel, He will bring them into sonship in resurrection. Israel will be brought into resurrection.
Ques Does sonship embrace every family that God has before Him?
JT In the Father’s house there will be many families. I think that in a sense the Spirit of sonship will pervade all, but the church, of course, will ever enjoy its own distinctive place in heavenly glory in association with Christ.
JP Would that be indicated by “every family in the heavens and on earth is named” of the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Ephesians 3: 14,15.
JT Exactly. God does not take pleasure in slaves; I think all the house will be made free by the Spirit of sonship.
JP The remark you made a moment ago is very important for us; that is, that service really depends upon the liberty we are in with God.
JT Yes, and that introduces a most important consideration: the church was set up in liberty — in sonship — and it was in that way adequate to set forth God.
JP That is rather striking. The effort of the enemy was to divert the saints from this great privilege,
[p. 169] as in the case of the Galatians. The Galatians had failed to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ had set them free.
JT The service of God must be relegated to the future unless sonship has a present application. The display will be future, but we have the Spirit of sonship now. The service of God was consequent on the descent of the Holy Spirit.
JP Do you mean to say that sonship has a present application?
JT Unquestionably. If it has no present application there is no divine service, but God is not going to be deprived of His service. God is going to be served, and that is the idea even with regard to Israel in “Let my son go that he may serve me”. Exodus 4: 23. There must be divine service.
JP Is there anything less than sonship in Christianity, I mean, from God’s side? Does it not say, “Ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”? Galatians 3: 26.
JT Every Christian is a son. Every single person that belongs to God in this age is a son. That must be so, for the simple reason that they live in the age of sonship the time appointed of the Father.
JP Why do you say the age of sonship? You seem to make it a question of time.
JT It is a question of time, according to Galatians: we read there, “The period fixed by the father”. Galatians 4: 2.
JP Galatians does make it a question of time.
JT It certainly was no question of the state in Galatia.
JP It was not a question of attainment, but a question of the time in which they lived. They lived in the age of sonship. It was the Spirit’s day. “Ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”. Galatians 3: 26.
WHF So we are still living in the age of sonship; and if the Spirit could apply sonship to the saints at Galatia, He can apply it to us now; and I [p. 170] am sure He is seeking to do so. It is exceedingly encouraging.
JT That is the great comfort for us now. It is not the time for display: the display of sonship is unquestionably future, but title has come in already. The title to sonship was given when Christ was raised from the dead. The Lord says then, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father”, etc. John 20: 17.
Rem The apostle says to the Galatians, “When the fulness of the time was come”. Galatians 4: 4.
JT Yes. “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship. But because ye are sons” (not because ye are going to be sons, but because ye are sons) “God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. Galatians 4: 4 - 6.
Ques What would you say if I should tell you that I am a son?
JT I should say you were telling the truth. That is what Christians need to know, because, practically, Christianity has fallen into slavery.
Ques Would you not say all Christians are sons from God’s side?
JT It is simply a statement of a fact. Whether you know it or not, you are a son.
Ques It is not a question of state?
JT No.
Rem The Galatians were in a bad state, but they were sons.
JP That is what the apostle impresses on them. When the light of that breaks in on souls it will have a great effect on their state.
JT That is exactly the point: what Christians at the present time need to know is that they are sons, and the knowledge of that in their souls would set them free.
Ques Then you would not connect sonship with liberty, but [p. 171] liberty with sonship?
JT I would connect liberty with sonship: sonship brings liberty to pass. You go in at the front door, as it were, and enjoy all the liberties of the house, and are perfectly free in doing this.
Rem I suppose it was a very necessary point with the Israelites — they must be liberated first?
JT They must be extricated from Egypt. “Let my son go”, Jehovah said. They could not serve Him in Egypt.
JP I suppose the point in the Spirit of God setting before those Galatian saints the fact of sonship, was really to extricate them, for the apostle exhorts them to stand fast in their liberty, and not to be again entangled with the yoke of bondage.
RSS When, and how do we become sons? Is it by the reception of the Spirit?
JT I think the title is there prior to the reception of the Spirit. That is the way Scripture puts it “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. Galatians 4: 6. I should not call anybody who has not the Spirit a son, because I do not know that he is the Lord’s until he gets the Spirit.
JP Of course you could not. As you were saying last night, you see the beginning of it in Christ, the Son, becoming a Man, and now, in that Christ is risen, the time of sonship has come for us.
JT Yes, so when Christ rose from the dead, historically every one of the Lord’s people were sons. Before that they were in the nursery. I do not think they knew much about it, but they were sons; they were in association with Christ. Directly the Lord rose from the dead the disciples come into view as His brethren: “Go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God”. John 20: 17.
JP In that way this would connect with [p. 172] Colossians.
JT Yes, the resurrection is the basis of everything.
Rem It was not the Galatians who fixed the period it was “the period fixed by the father”. Galatians 4: 2.
JP And that wonderful period fixed of the Father has come: all are sons now.
JT What hinges upon that is heirship. “... heir also through God”. Galatians 4: 7. A man comes into his estate at twenty-one; he is a minor prior to that. Though he be lord of all, he is not different from a servant.
Ques Is that the reason the apostle could say, “Be as I am for I also am as ye”? Galatians 4: 12.
JT He was not different from the Galatians on that point, although his state was very different. He was very different from them as a Christian.
Rem You would say he was in the good of sonship, but as to his title, it was no clearer than theirs. They were just as much sons as he.
Ques What place have the children?
JT The sons are all children. Children is a different thought from sonship. Every son is a child, but the idea of children is derivation; it brings in the thought of parentage: so in Galatians when Paul speaks about our mother, he does not say, Sons of Jerusalem above, but she is our mother, and we are her children; that is, we are derived from her.
Ques Would you say the thought of children brings in responsibility, and that of sonship, privilege?
JT I would connect privilege with both. The thought of children is a question of parentage and derivation, so we are children of God because derived from God: we got our being from God.
JP Begotten of God through the gospel.
JT Sonship is our greatest privilege. You are entitled to all the privileges of the house: you can sit at the table with the head of the house, and talk [p. 173] to him, and he to you, as to a friend. So the apostle says, “Thou art no more a servant, but a son”. Galatians 4: 7.
JT In John 8 it is very clear. The Lord speaks about the servant, and says, “The servant abideth not in the house for ever, but the Son abideth ever”. John 8: 35.
Rem I have noticed that the expression, child of God is never applied to the Lord Jesus, although we get, “This is my beloved Son”, etc. Luke 9: 35.
JT Just so. In Acts 4 you get the expression, in the authorised version, “Thy holy child, Jesus”, (Acts 4: 27) but it ought to be “servant”.
Rem In Matthew we read, “He took the young child and his mother”. Matthew 2: 21.
JT But that does not indicate child of God: that is according to what He was publicly, the child of Mary and Joseph: it does not say He was the child of God.
Ques In John’s epistle it speaks of children, young men, and fathers. In what sense does that come in?
JT Children there are babes. They are simply relative terms, and refer, I think, to experience. You begin as babes, and go on to young men, then fathers, but the term son would apply to each one. It is a question there of the different degrees of growth in the family, but all are sons.
Ques Does not the word “sons” bring in God’s purpose from the very outset?
JT Yes, God’s thought was to have a company of people in liberty. He takes up human terms, and we have to get behind the terms to see what was in His mind. His thought was to have people in liberty of affection with Himself, and I think the way sonship is brought out in Galatians is very important, because we have all been captured. Christians have all, to some extent, been brought into slavery.
Ques Would you say Hebrews was like Galatians? It speaks there of being babes, not of full age. Is that the same thought as we have [p. 174] here?
JP No. In Hebrews it is not slavery it is a question of the senses: these had become stunted. It says, “Ye are become dull in hearing”. Hebrews 5: 11. I think it is important that there is nothing lower, nothing less, than sonship now.
JT That is a very important point for Christians. If I should go to any person I knew had the Holy Ghost, and say to him that he is a son, and it is his privilege to be free — if he received it, it would have a very great effect upon him: it would liberate him.
Ques When you say Christians are in bondage now, what do you mean?
JT I think they have got into Babylon morally. That is exactly what took place with Israel, actually. God liberated them from Egypt (that was the world in one aspect) and His thought was to bring them into His own land. Subsequently they were taken captive to Babylon, but God’s thought was to have them in His own land. That is really what took place at the outset as to the assembly. The Lord brought His disciples into the land of promise — God’s land: into the sphere of divine affections: and He intended them to stay there, but instead of staying there, they went into Babylon. That is what has taken place in the history of the church.
Ques What is the difference between Babylon and Egypt?
JT I think Egypt is the world in which the flesh lives and moves, and Babylon is the imperial system, bearing a religious character. The danger the people of God were exposed to after they came into the inheritance lay in the East. They were exposed to danger from the East, that is to say, from Babylon. Balaam came from that direction and Achan coveted the goodly Babylonish garment in Jericho.
Ques What do you mean by imperialism?
JT I think when God set up Noah on the renewed [p. 175] earth, He gave him the light of government, and Satan seizing the thought, imitated it; so in Genesis 10, you get Nimrod, who established imperialism.
JP He was the first imperialist.
JT And Babylon was the continuation of Nimrod’s kingdom. You can understand Babylon was the great system by which the enemy would endeavour to capture the people of God. You may depend upon it, it was a very great point with Satan to capture the children of Israel. They had been good servants to Pharaoh, but he would make them good servants in the East: he would use them to build up his system there. Babylon is the great power by which Satan has enslaved the people of God. It is a terrible system. According to Revelation 18 it trades in the bodies and souls of men. They are, as it were, sold at auction there.
Rem That was a great thought on the part of Satan, but it was a far greater thought to capture the church.
JT What happened to Israel was really a foreshadowing of the history of the church.
Ques Would you explain the meaning of “sold at auction”?
JT I think Satan offers certain things for your soul. He can use you. You would be a capital slave, and so he offers you the world. It may be the commercial, social, or religious world, but he offers you something in order to capture you.
Ques It is something on the principle of his taking the Lord up in the wilderness, would you say?
JT Yes, if Satan could have captured Christ, look at the Servant he would have had. Of course you could not entertain the thought, but still he endeavoured to capture Him. Satan takes Christ up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, and then tells Him if He will fall down and worship [p. 176] him they shall be His. Satan would have given all in his possession to capture the Lord.
Rem Hezekiah showed the Babylonians all the treasures in his house, and by and by they took them.
JT Yes. I think the devil is a shrewd slave-master; he knows the people who will do him the best service.
Ques Would you say Satan will bring up all kinds of possibilities to tempt Christians?
JT Yes, he would be greatly interested to find a place for you in his system: to find you work to do in the system he controls. He will give you plenty of work to do there. It amounts to slavery, and of the very worst kind.
Ques What is the difference between the service we have been speaking of, and that which Satan wants to bring us into?
JT Well, what kind of service did the children of Israel do for Pharoah? Very irksome service. They were compelled to make bricks without straw. Very hard work. I think Satan’s work is a very hard kind of work.
Ques Is there any difference between the character of their service in Egypt and in Babylon?
JT I do not know that they did exactly the work of slaves in Babylon. I think they had a more exalted place there.
Ques When you speak about Christians being in the Lord’s service, what class of people have you before you; those who go out preaching the gospel, etc.?
JT No. In a comprehensive way the service of God is the activity of divine love toward God, toward one another, and toward all men.
Rem I have always looked at it, in my mind, as those who were preaching, etc.
JT There is plenty of preaching, but not much service at the present time.
[p. 177] Ques Will you not say a little more about divine love being in activity?
JT I think that is the idea of service. God took account of the children of Israel in the wilderness to put them into His own land. He numbered every Israelite in order to give him a place in His own land. His land may be taken as a type of the assembly now. The Lord takes account of every believer, and gives him a place in His system. What does that mean? The Lord would have service, and it is the service of love; not like Satan’s hard service, such as making bricks without straw. The Lord says, “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light”. Matthew 11: 30. “The perfect law of liberty” (James 2: 12) — that is what the Lord brings us into.
Ques What did you say the service of God is?
JT The service of God must have relation to God — that means love in activity, and it comes out in our conduct toward one another.
JP I will give you a very good scripture on service. The apostle in writing to the saints in one place says, “I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved”. 2 Corinthians 12: 15.
JT Yes, that is the servant. He is no slave. He is acting there in the dignity of a son: that is to say he is like Christ. That was what marked Christ.
RSS And I suppose it all flows from association with Christ. I imagine you get the very opposite of what we have just been hearing in the servant who said, “I knew thee that thou art an hard man reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: and I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine”. Matthew 25: 24.
JT He took account of the Lord as if He were like Pharaoh.
RSS Just so, and the very thing he says he knew he did [p. 178] not know.
JP Does not the Lord give us a wonderful example in Himself, of one acting in divine love in regard to others, in John 13? Look at Him there: the Model Servant, the Example. He lays aside His garments, girds Himself with a linen towel, pours the water into the basin, kneels, and washes the disciples’ feet, then turns to them and says, as it were, It is not that I am going to continue in this service: I am just giving you an example, that as I have done to you, you should do to one another.
JT He gave them the start, and they were to continue it right on to the very end. So in Galatians everything working by love was the thought. “By love serve one another”. Galatians 5: 13. I think that is the idea.
RSS I suppose you get a type of the Lord in the Hebrew servant in Exodus 21, where he became a servant for ever, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free”. Exodus 21: 5. His ear is bored, and He becomes a servant for ever.
JT The Lord had been alone in service prior to this. He had been serving, but had been alone in it, and now He would associate others with Himself in the service.
Rem In connection with service, I often think of what the Lord said to Peter regarding it. Peter took the ground of loving the Lord the most, and in the end of John’s gospel the Lord puts before Peter that He had interests here. His sheep and lambs were here, and He would have Peter care for His people in this world. “Feed my lambs” and “Feed my sheep”. John 21:15; John 21:17. I take it the service of God is connected with the Lord’s people here.
JT Yes. Primarily the thought was that God was to be ministered to, and the priest was taken up in order that he might minister — “That he may minister unto me in the priest’s office”. Exodus 28: 1. That was the primary thought of service. First He has the people with Himself, then the tabernacle comes in [p. 179] then the priesthood. The service was to be carried out in the priesthood.
Rem You get the thought of service in 1 Peter 2.
JT Yes. “As living stones are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”. 1 Peter 2: 5. Then lower down in the chapter you have “a royal priesthood”, to “shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light”. 1 Peter 2: 9. Worship is the highest order of service.
Ques Would you connect the thought of sonship with priesthood?
JT Yes, you cannot be a priest unless you are a son.
Rem You get that distinctly in Hebrews 7.
JT Christ, the Son, was constituted a Priest for ever.
Ques Referring again to what the Lord said to Peter, is that not the basis upon which you can serve? He said, “Lovest thou me?” John 21: 16. And when Peter said he did, then the Lord says, “Feed my lambs”, and “Feed my sheep”.
JT Yes. I should like to get the thought clearly as to what was in the mind of God: God would be served. It brings out what was in the mind and heart of God. He would be served by men, but then they must be free.
Rem He would be served by those who are in association with Christ risen, as we get it in John 20.
JT God would bring them into His own land of freedom.
Rem No bondage there.
JT They had been in bondage, but God would have them in His own blessed land, where there was no bondage. I like to think of God as bringing His people into His own land where there would be no bondage: where all would be of God, and that would be the basis of service. All service would go out from [p. 180] there. If Israel had entered into God’s thought for them, they would have been a wonderful means of blessing to the nations. If it had been possible (we know it was not possible in the flesh), for them to enter into the thought of sonship with God, in the land of Canaan, what a means of blessing they would have been!
Ques What did you say answers to the land now?
JT Association with Christ in the assembly.
JP In what sense are you speaking of it?
JT In the sense we have it here in Colossians. The saints are raised with Christ. “In whom also ye are circumcised” (Colossians 2: 11) involves Gilgal. Gilgal is the end of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ. Then we are said to be raised with Him, through the faith of the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Association must be on resurrection-ground.
Ques . Then the land is open for any Christian?
JT Yes, if anybody cares for it, the land of Canaan is available.
Ques You think you get Canaan in Colossians — risen with Christ?
JT Risen with Christ is Canaan. I have no doubt God, as it were, gives us a taste of it without our actually being there, but you get the taste so that you might be there. That is the grapes of Eshcol.
Ques I suppose you cannot possibly have sonship without resurrection?
JT No, that is the ground of sonship. It is in resurrection all the people of God become sons; it has reference to time, which was when Christ rose from the dead. Every one of the disciples, if they had affection for it, might then have joined Christ as risen. The power was not there until the Holy Ghost came, but the privilege was open to them.
Ques Does that involve what the Lord said to Mary? “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended”. John 20: 17.
JT What He meant was, that the relation in which He had stood to Mary had ceased: He must ascend to the Father and the Holy Ghost must come, and then things would be on an entirely new and different basis.
Rem He does not associate Himself with them in that way until after He is risen.
JT He says, “Go to my brethren”. John 20: 17. That is after resurrection.
Rem There is another thought in connection with Christ’s resurrection; it is not only association: it involves the service of God.
JT That comes out later. It is in the church divine service is continued. “To serve the living God”, it says in Hebrews 9: 14. God is not going to relegate His service to the future; He has not given up the thought of service. Israel did not answer to His thought of service. When Christ came, the service of God was taken up by Him, and it is to be carried on by the sons; that is, by Christians.
RSS Is service Godward priestly, and manward Levitical?
JT In Peter both are connected with priesthood.
Ques Would you say it is very poor after all He has done for me that I should not have a deep desire to be where He is?
JT Yes. His company is well worth having, I can assure you. What the Holy Ghost would do is to produce in us a desire to be with Him, to see His greatness, to see Him as He is in His own sphere.
Ques Can worship be looked at as service?
JT It is the highest part of service. The word “service” is rendered “worship” in Hebrews 9 as J.N.D. gives it. In John 4, however, the word is different, and involves the highest and most intimate relations of Christians with the Father.
[p. 182] Ques Is the thought of worship that God gets a response to His affections?
JT Yes. God attaches value to the affections of men: He wishes men to serve Him in love, and that came to pass historically when Christ rose from the dead, and the Holy Ghost came down.
Rem In John 12 they made the Lord a supper.
JT Just so. They made Him a supper, and that was consequent upon resurrection. Lazarus had been raised from the dead, and he sat at the table with the Lord. He is figurative of those who are risen.
JP I have been greatly struck with what Colossians 3 presents. There is no defect there. I think the beautiful climax is reached in verse 17. Leading up to that you get, “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God”. Colossians 3: 16. It is a wonderful and beautiful climax, is it not?
JT Yes. It is wonderful that God in His love has brought His people into His own land. In Numbers 26 He takes account of every one of them, and they are all to have a place in God’s land every one of them.
Ques Would you say a little about your thought of God’s land?
JT It is a question of being with Christ in His own sphere.
Ques Where is Christ’s sphere now?
JP On the other side of death.
JT His sphere is not in this world: in the commercial, social, or any other sphere of this world. The Lord has a sphere of His own, and this is realised in the assembly. He never intended to set up His system in connection with this world. He intended to have a sphere all His own, and He [p. 183] also intended to give every person belonging to Him a place in that sphere.
Rem You said a moment ago that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt in order to give them a place in His own land. The idea, I suppose, was that there was to be nothing to hinder, but everything to help in the service of God.
JT Yes, and in the sphere He brings us into everything is affected by what is of heaven, all is according to God there. The thought is marvellous, that the sons should be brought into that blessed sphere where all things are of God.
Rem Getting there involved going through Jordan, and I do not think there was much taste for that. Even the grapes of Eshcol did not give much taste for it. The two and a half tribes preferred the land of Gilead.
Ques Will you say something about Jordan? We know so little about it.
JT Jordan is the ending of life down here.
WHF Is not Jordan privilege?
JT It is privilege in that it introduces you into Canaan.
Rem It is the only way into Canaan.
WHF You spoke of Canaan as typifying the assembly. Is it the assembly as viewed on the side of privilege?
JT Yes, as risen, according to this chapter. “In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead”. 1 Peter 1: 21. You see the platform is the world to come properly. In this chapter resurrection is the platform. God is going to put everything on that basis, the ground of resurrection. Christians already can take that ground and in that way we get the land of Canaan now.
JP I suppose Colossians is the present privilege side [p. 184] of it?
JT I think it is a question of privilege in Colossians. The Christian company is already entitled to take up the ground of resurrection: “In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God”. 1 Peter 1: 21. That is to say, on the principle of faith we can anticipate the coming age.
Every thought of God for man finds some answer in the assembly now. You will have difficulty until you see that. There is some answer in the assembly to every thought of God for man, whether service, the land, the kingdom, the city, or whatever it is.
Rem Some years ago we used to talk of the assembly as being a certain meeting: we used to speak of the assembly at such and such a place.
JT I think you might speak of the assembly at New York or Chicago, meaning all the people of God in those cities. In that sense it is God’s assembly, but to say God’s assembly is restricted to a certain company meeting in those cities is not true. The assembly, from the point of view we are taking account of it this afternoon, is not the assembly in the wilderness, as in the epistle to the Corinthians, but the assembly viewed as risen with Christ. “In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God”. 1 Peter 1: 21. It is the assembly from the side of privilege. Christians now are entitled to take up the world to come.
Rem John 20 is the divine pattern of the assembly viewed in that way.
Rem Looking at the assembly in this way, it is a very wonderful thing in the mind of God.
JT And the way you get into it is by attraction to Christ. In the case of Israel, the ark went before, and they followed. Really the way we get into the good of the assembly now is by being attracted by the Ark, by Christ.
Rem The Lord said in John 14 “I will not leave [p. 185] you orphans, I am coming to you”. John 14: 18. Is that indicated in this?
JT I think He meant to have a sphere down here all His own, what you might call His own land. God had taken up Canaan. He did not take up the Babylonish kingdom, nor Egypt. God did not take possession of Egypt: He took His people out of Egypt, and then left it in the hands of Pharoah. But he did take possession of Canaan: that was to be a sphere of His own. It was a small sphere comparatively, but a sphere God intended to call His own land, and He was to have His people there. In that sense it is a type of the assembly.
I have no doubt the thought of the Assembly is that Christ has a sphere down here which is all His own, and where every person belonging to Him has a place.
RSS And you would say it is our privilege to be at liberty there, to be at home? I expect what we call a good meeting depends pretty largely on the saints really being at home with the Lord.
JT Yes. See what liberty there was at the beginning: one can see they were all free in the beginning of Acts. I think they all felt they were brought into an entirely new sphere, where they were perfectly free and at home. It was from that basis the service of God toward man was to go out. I think blessing was to extend from that sphere universally.
Ques Would you say all Christians are included in the assembly?
JT Every single person belonging to Christ has a place in His assembly. He has a place there for everyone.
Rem When the Lord delivered His people from Egypt He took them all out, but in deliverance from Babylon they did not all come out.
JP No, only a remnant was brought back. In a way that is what is going on now. You cannot look [p. 186] for much now: only a remnant is being delivered from the world system. The way this has come to pass is that the Lord has revived the truth, and by the truth people have been enabled to judge of things. They have been able to take account of things around them, and refuse what is not of God, and it is in that way we have been delivered. The Lord says, “Ye shall knew the truth, and the truth shall make you free”, (John 8: 32) and, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed”. John 8: 36.
Rem It may be that some are feeble, not walking in the good of it.
JT It is a great thing to see that all Christians have a place there. God took account of every one of the Israelites in order to give them the inheritance.
Ques Recovery now has reference to the assembly?
JT Unquestionably. If the Lord is active now He must be active in order to deliver His people from Babylon, and this came to pass by the revival of the truth of the church. There was a divine movement during the Reformation, but recovery is not seen there fully. Philadelphia answers to recovery.
JP If a man’s wife and children are in distress or need, he would set to work to relieve them first. He would not go to his neighbours, but would begin with his wife and children. I believe the Lord acts in that way. While there are people in Christendom to be extricated, you may depend the Lord is active there.
Ques You said a moment ago, “The truth shall make you free”. What is truth there?
JP The truth is simply what is true. I know no better definition of truth than that.
Ques Is the assembly for seven days in the week, or just for Sunday morning?
JT I think in the tabernacle there was to be continual service.
[p. 187] Ques Do you mean by that a Christian can live in the land — over Jordan always?
JT No, but I think the service of God is maintained.
Ques How is it maintained?
JT It is maintained by those who are in the good of the land.
Rem You see that in Caleb and Joshua. They had reached the land, and tasted the fruit, and were able to go on the other forty years, knowing they would be brought into it.
Ques You would not call your daily occupation the service of God?
JT Your daily employment could hardly be called the service of God. Service has to do with the tabernacle.
Rem If I serve the saints I serve Him. I serve, as it were, in His name.
JT Quite so.
Ques Service is in connection with the tabernacle in the wilderness then?
JT In a sense it is, but in order to serve God in the wilderness according to His pleasure, I must know what the land is. I have no doubt the epistle to the Ephesians gives the true thought of divine service. I would not undertake to prove it, but I have not a doubt in my mind that it is so. It must be so, I think.
Ques What part of the epistle especially?
JT I take the epistle in a general way. In chapter 1 the saints are before God in love: in chapter 2 they are raised up and seated in the heavenlies: in chapter 4 they are in relation to one another in love and in chapter 6 the testimony is going out.
Ques Is it not possible to serve the saints in a legal way?
JT Yes. For instance, you know a man who is in need, and you help him merely out of a sense of duty. You would rather he was not there, but feel [p. 188] you ought to do it. You are a slave if you are doing things in that way.
Rem I think it is a great thing to have brought home to our hearts, that love is the source of service. The Lord said to Peter, “Lovest thou me?” John 21: 16.
JT If you love you give freely and cheerfully; it is a pleasure to do so. You are free, as a son, and act in the dignity of a son; but if you do anything for a saint, merely because he needs it, it is slavery.
Rem God would have no pleasure in that. The service of God refers to God. All your movements must refer to God.
JT Bringing you into the land is what God does for you. God brings you into His own land, and now what are you going to do for Him? You are going to serve God. God says, as it were, Look what I am going to make you: I make you an heir; now what are you going to do for Me? You are going to serve God in love.
Ques Suppose I should have a desire to get over Jordan into the land, and I were to ask you for advice, what would you tell me?
JT I would tell you that you get in by attraction to Christ. It is a great thing to see that God has a place there for you. The land is God’s best for us: it is what He has prepared for us, and when I am there consciously, the question arises, what am I going to do for God? I am going to serve Him.
Rem It says in 2 Corinthians 5: 15, “They which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again”.
Ques Would you say a little more about the assembly, because we have had the idea of connecting the assembly with a room or building, and thinking when we leave the assembly we are independent Christians in the world? We knew we were responsible, and all that, but were, in a way, standing alone.
JT The Lord’s thought was to bring all His [p. 189] people into touch with Himself. I think we can see in the Acts how Christians were affected by coming together to meet the Lord. Every first day of the week they came together, and I am sure they realised the Lord’s presence. He had a sphere into which He could come at any time with perfect freedom and find a welcome there. All were free there — all sons.
Ques I suppose the fact that when they first came together they had the door shut for fear of the Jews, shows in a way that they wished freedom from what was outside. The world was nothing to them.
JT Yes, and the Lord came in, and they were glad to see Him. That gives the idea of the assembly. The thing to see is that the Lord had a sphere down here, into which He could come at any time and find a welcome.
Ques What would you think would be the effect if all Christians knew the truth of sonship?
JT I think they would conduct themselves in a very different way: they would walk as sons. I think our conduct is pretty much that of slaves.
Ques And every Christian would then enjoy association with Christ.
JP Look at Barnabas. There was a son. He did not act like a slave. He had possessions, sold them, brought the money to the apostles and others did the same. The true effect of sonship conies out there.
JT I think the way the Lord intended to deliver His people was by bringing them into something infinitely better than the world. He brought them into something far better in the beginning of the Acts. It is clear that they thought that it was far better, for they gave up the world, and thus proved to the world that they had something better.
Rem We are to seek the things which are above.
JT I should go anywhere to get into the sphere of [p. 190] heaven, and you can find it among the saints. That is the sphere of the Holy Ghost; Christ’s sphere; that which is influenced by Christ. What a wonderful thing it is to be found in a sphere where Christ rules!
Ques Is that why we get the exhortation, “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”? Hebrews 10: 25.
JT Yes, because you find Christ there. You come into a sphere where Christ rules, outside of the world entirely. The reproach of Egypt is rolled away. You are there outside of all that marked you as a man in the flesh.
Rem I find it very easy to speak of the Lord when amongst the Lord’s people, but it is not so easy to speak of Him when out in the world.
JT That is because Christ is in reproach in the world, but I think we ought to consider it an honour to have the mark of Christ upon us.
Rem It is when you come in contact with the world you need to have the armour on.
JT Yes, if it is a question of having to do with the world you need to be clad in the armour of God; but I think the thing to see is that you begin with entering into Canaan. That is really the beginning of service. If you have not entered into Canaan, you are not equipped for service. You must know what it is to be in God’s land.