READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS
READING ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS
JP Our previous readings led us to the end of chapter 3. What would be the connection in chapters 4 - 6?
JT I suppose that in these chapters the priesthood is seen in relation to our need down here; this is especially so in chapters 4 and 5, while at the end of chapter 6 the Lord is viewed as having entered within the veil, as Forerunner for us. As Forerunner Christ is there representatively, and this lays the ground for chapter 7.
JP In chapter 7 the saints are regarded in the light of the heavenly calling; they are not seen in connection with their actual condition and circumstances down here, as in the earlier part of the epistle.
JT Hence the necessity for such a great Priest. “For such an high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens”. Hebrews 7: 26.
JP In chapter 2 there was what became God, what was suitable to Him, “For it became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings” (Hebrews 2: 10) but is it not wonderful that the saints have such a marvellous calling that the Spirit of God can say it became them to have such a High Priest?
Ques Would you say the Priest is brought in in order to clear His people?
JT In chapter 2 He makes propitiation for the sins of the people, and following upon that you get needed succour for the wilderness; but all to the end that you should take up the other line — the heavenly calling. I think the gospel of Luke properly presents the Priest — in connection with man’s need. I [p. 316] suppose the gospel of Matthew is the King; the gospel of Mark would be the Prophet; the gospel of John is the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, but the gospel of Luke is the Priest.
RSS Would Luke correspond with chapters 4 and 5 of this epistle?
JT Very much. If you consider the opening of the gospels, you get an idea as to the point of view taken in each. Take the gospel of Matthew: it opens with “The generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham”. Matthew 1: 1. That is to say, the point in view is the Heir, and evidently the male line comes into evidence, reaching to Joseph. Much more is said in this gospel of Joseph than of Mary. The male is more prominent, but when you come to the gospel of Luke, you are struck with the greater prominence of the woman. The woman being so prominent gives an idea that it is humanity and Christ in relation to it, that is in view. The gospel opens with the priest, whose wife, Elizabeth, is of the daughters of Aaron; then you get Mary, and Anna.. Of course John the Baptist and Simeon appear, but it is very remarkable how prominent the women are. Christ is seen as the Priest in connection with man according to his state; not man in responsibility, but man in dire necessity. The idea of a priest is more to meet man in his need. All the parables in the gospel of Luke support that line. It is in this gospel we get the widow at the gate of Nain, and she, to my mind, represents the point of view taken in Luke. Her only son is dead, and she is a widow. Here the priest comes into view — the Lord sees her, and has compassion on her.
JP So the Samaritan in chapter 10 had compassion on the man who fell among the thieves. The priest, who passed by on the other side, had the title, clothes, and all that, but there was nothing of the real priest about him, or he would never have passed by on the other side. When the real Priest came He [p. 317] had compassion, and went to him, and began to minister to his need: He bound up the wounds, and poured in the oil and wine, That is the Priest.
Ques Is that what He is anointed for in chapter 4?
JT I think so. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted”, etc. Luke 4: 18. I think the picture we get in Luke 4 is most interesting. It says, “All bear him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth”. Luke 4: 22. All this speaks of the true Priest.
Ques Would the throne of grace be connected with the Priest?
JT Yes. In the apprehension that such a Priest has passed through the heavens, you come boldly to receive mercy and find grace. If you consider Christ down here, you have no difficulty in regard to God: you go to God with the utmost liberty, because when the Lord was down here He always relieved people on the part of God, and there is no change. Then further, as the passage before us states, the Priest is able to sympathise with our infirmities, having been tempted as we are, sin apart.
We may notice that it is not simply a question of meeting our need: the ultimate end is that we should not let go the confession, “Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession”.
JP Do you not think we have been hindered in entertaining the thought in our minds, in connection with this part of the priesthood of the Lord Jesus Christ, that meeting our need was the great finality? We have not gone on to the second part — the heavenly calling. If the Lord Jesus Christ in this wonderful priestly service meets our need, it is to set us free to take up the other side: the heavenly calling and [p. 318] the sanctuary.
WHF I believe we have been hindered a great deal by officialism, as represented in Luke 10 by the priest who passed by on the other side. When the true Priest comes in, the need of man is met.
JT It illustrates the mode of divine action. Where officialism comes into view, God acts through One who had no recognised function at all. He was the Samaritan who journeyed, and came where he was. Ostensibly He had no commission when He was here, but He was the One who could relieve the man, and that is the true Priest. All the true priestly habiliments could be seen in Christ if you had eyes to see them, but to the natural eye He was the Samaritan who journeyed.
Ques Why was He represented by a Samaritan?
JT Because the Samaritans were under reproach. He was inferior to the Jew: he was not even one of the common people: he had no standing at all. He was not a priest, a levite, nor even one of the common people, but One who was outside altogether.
JP It is wonderful to see how Christ forces that lawyer to acknowledge that the Samaritan was the true neighbour. It makes clear what the word “neighbour” really implies. It links it with the Lord as Priest. Christ is the true Neighbour, the One who takes account of the need of man, and in perfect priestly compassion and grace meets that need.
JT It is wonderful to take things up as the Spirit has presented them to us in Luke’s gospel. It is a question of following up what is in the heart of Christ, coining near to man to relieve him. If we are to receive benefit from the Priest, it is in relation to the confession. The Lord never deals with us simply as so many units: He supports us in relation to the confession.
JP The confession puts the saints together.
JT Yes, the confession involves our testimony.
[p. 319] JP You see the operation of it in a human way, in certain great bodies united together by a certain confession for instance, the Westminster confession.
JT The great point is that you hold fast the light you have received, and so witness to it. Do not give it up. We all know the many things that come in (worldly advancements, pleasures, bereavements, etc.), which tend to induce us to falter; but here the priesthood of Christ comes in to support us so that we may not falter.
JP The confession is a great thing in this chapter and also in chapter 10. There you enter into the holiest, and the first thing you come out to do is to “hold fast the confession of the hope unwavering”. Hebrews 10: 23.
JT The Spirit of God has ever what is collective in view, and this in relation to the testimony. We all quote Scripture, and get comfort out of it, but we often forget that the comfort and support we get are in view of holding fast the confession. But at the same time the Lord takes pleasure in relieving His people.
JP I suppose if we were more enlightened and exercised with regard to holding fast the confession, we should realise more than we do the importance of the throne of grace.
JT I think it is of immense importance to see that there is a throne of grace for us, and that it stands connected with the confession.
RSS What would you say were the chief characteristics of the Priest?
JT In the first place, he must be a man: “Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things relating to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people”. Hebrews 2: 17. Then He must have compassion, and be sympathetic. Compassion supposes ability to remove what may be the [p. 320] occasion of the pressure, but in sympathy the lord supports us as under the pressure. Then “The priest’s lips should keep knowledge”. Malachi 2: 7 The priest instructs, “They should seek the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts”. The teaching of the people in Old Testament times was connected with the priest.
JB There is deep sympathy in the Priest’s heart: there is nothing in which He does not deeply sympathise with you, sin apart.
JT The things which befall us in the way of discipline would cause us to falter, but the Lord comes in and keeps us from being discouraged. When Paul is under such fearful pressure in Jerusalem the Lord stands by him that night and says, “Be of good cheer, Paul for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome”. Acts 23: 11. This supports what we have been saying; it was a question of the testimony. It was not to relieve Paul of his discouragement only, but rather that the testimony might be rendered by him.
JP Speaking again of the priest’s lips keeping knowledge, do you not think there was an apprehension of that on the part of Mary of Bethany? It follows the parable of the Samaritan in Luke 10: she sat at His feet, and heard His word. He is still the Priest, only now it is in the communication of knowledge.
JT And so as you proceed in chapter 11 the disciple says, “Lord, teach us to pray”. Luke 11: 1. He wants to be instructed, and the Lord teaches them how to pray.
WJN In Luke 11 the gift of the Spirit is referred to.
JT “How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him”. Luke 11: 12. The gift of the Spirit by Christ, as having received it from the Father, is a priestly [p. 321] act.
Ques Is it in connection with blessing?
JT Blessing and relief.
JB The Priest teaches what is in the heart of God. He knows.
JP It is wonderful to see to the very end of the gospel of Luke how Christ is presented as Priest. Note the account the Spirit has given of His death it is not the Victim, but the Offering-Priest that is seen: the One who through the eternal Spirit offers Himself, and as risen He is still the Priest. The last act was His hands lifted up in blessing.
JT Beautiful And having gone into heaven He received of the Father the promise of the Spirit, and shed Him forth — it was a priestly act.
JP I think one might say it reverently that those blessed hands have never been put down. They are still lifted up.
JT Yes. And although all is for the blessing of His own, it is also with a view to the maintenance of the testimony. “As thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome”. Acts 23: 11.
JP And at Rome the Lord stood by Paul, and strengthened him.
JT Exactly. “That by me the preaching might be fully known”. 2 Timothy 4: 17. It is all a question of the testimony. He has a heart that is sympathetic, and enters into all our feelings, but with a view to our being maintained in connection with the testimony.
Rem Would you say as that Priest abides for ever, that the testimony will be maintained to the end?
JT The support of the testimony depends upon the Priest. He will stand by those who stand by the testimony to the end. Our great point should be to see to it that we are holding fast the confession.
Rem That is what Paul wanted to impress on [p. 322] Timothy.
JP Yes, not to be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord.
JT And, “Be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God”. 2 Timothy 1: 8.
WHF Will you give us some little thought as to the testimony? I think there is a good deal of misunderstanding as to what the testimony really is.
JT I think the gospel, if you take it in its fullest and widest sense, is the testimony.
JP That is clearly so in 2 Timothy 1.
WHF The testimony is in regard to what is coming in.
JT There is the testimony of God, the testimony of Christ, and the testimony of our Lord; then the Spirit of prophecy is said to be the testimony of Jesus, but this deals with the earth. In a general way, I think the gospel may be said to be the testimony. The ark of the covenant and the tent of testimony present different thoughts. The Ark refers to Christ personally and is more secret, whereas the tent refers to what is public. The latter evidently depends upon the former: everything indeed depends upon the Ark of the Covenant. I think the tent of the testimony may be connected with 1 Timothy, while the Ark of the covenant is in view in 2 Timothy. When the public thing fails Christ personally, as the One who effects everything for God eternally, becomes more prominent. Still the tent of testimony remains, and will hold good even in the millennium. The Ark is ever Christ Himself.
Ques What is the difference between the testimony and the mystery, as we get it in Ephesians?
JT The mystery is what is hidden now, but which is to become known publicly. The mystery is included in the gospel. The church is spoken of as “the mystery of the gospel”. Ephesians 6: 19.
WHF It is when standing for the testimony you are brought into conflict.
[p. 323] Ques Would you say that is what Satan has been attacking all along?
JT Yes.
Ques Is the testimony that God is going to head up all things in Christ?
JT Yes, but the testimony of God refers to His nature, and so must include the gospel of His glory: that is, that in which God is expressed according to His nature for the relief and blessing of men. The “testimony of the Christ” would refer to Him as placed over all things, and stands connected, 1 Corinthians 9, with “the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”.
WJN Do you not think in announcing the gospel the tendency is to lose sight of the testimony? That is what hinders us. We indicate Christ as Priest on the side merely of man’s need, and lose sight of the fact that it is the purpose of God that all things should be headed up in Him.
JT Yes. The Scriptures give an account of the different features of the testimony, and I think the gospel announces all those things as having taken form, and they are presented as available for the good and blessing of man, and also as forming that in which God displays Himself.
JP Does that not come out clearly in the end of Ephesians, where the apostle asks the prayers of the saints, and speaks of making known the mystery of the gospel? I was thinking of how the gospel so wonderfully covers and includes everything.
Ques Is the gospel larger than the mystery?
JP Certainly — the mystery is in the gospel.
Ques You spoke of its being available now. How is it available?
JT The Priest has made it available. When He was here He healed people physically, but on the ground of accomplished redemption He has, in the power of the Holy Ghost, provided a sphere, in which [p. 324] men may find escape and relief from the world-system. He has brought the means of relief into the scene of need.
JP Because He was actually going to take up the position of Priest on high.
JT That is it. He has taken up the position of Priest at the right hand of God, and the effect of it is that all that is required to meet human need is introduced. That is the thing to see. The gospel announces what that wonderful Priest has brought in. The church, the kingdom, the house, have all been instituted by the Priest on the ground of redemption.
Ques Does it not go further than relief?
JT Yes, as we have been saying, it is to the end that there should be a testimony on the part of God.
WHF It has a double bearing: on the one hand making things available to men, and on the other meeting divine purposes.
JT The latter is seen in chapter 7, where the greatness of the Priest is seen as necessitated by the great calling of which He is Priest, “such an high priest became us”. Hebrews 7: 26. Here the Priest and the company are viewed in relation to divine purposes. Then in chapter 8 the Lord is seen as “minister of the holy places, and of the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man”. Hebrews 8: 2. All this is on the divine side.
WHF Would you say that on our side it is the means to the end that we should be led into divine purpose?
JT First of all to hold fast your confession; then further, that you should understand the greatness of your calling it is so great that you require this great Priest, and what chapter 8 presents is the system which God has established, and that required a Minister.
JB I suppose that what is confessed is apprehended by the one that confesses it.
Rem The new company and the new system [p. 325] involve a new priest, and this chapter gives us that Person.
WHF I think it is a good thing to be set free in our spirits in order that the Priest may conduct us into divine purpose.
JT “Now consider”, he says, “how great this personage was”. Hebrews 7: 4.
JB I have linked this chapter in my mind with the first chapter of this epistle.
JT Yes, the importance of the first chapter is, I think, that it emphasises the importance of what was spoken, but the importance of this chapter is that it emphasises the importance of the company. The speaking is great because of the greatness of the Speaker, and the company is great because it requires such a great Priest. This chapter is not exactly to emphasise the greatness of the Person of Christ. If you want a Scripture that emphasises the personal greatness of Christ specifically, you get it in John 1. The Jewish Christian did not doubt Messiah’s greatness. We should seek to enter into the greatness of our calling. It is the true way of deliverance.
JP There are two parts in Hebrews. Chapter 7, verse 25 ends the first part, and verse 26 is the beginning of the second. The saints in the first part are seen in relation to their need down here: in the second they are viewed in the light of “holy brethren”, “partakers of the heavenly calling”, (Hebrews 3: 1) and their calling is so great that no less a Person than Christ will do as Priest. Look at that expression! “For such an high priest became us”, Hebrews 7: 26. Then in the first verse of chapter 8: “We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched, and not man”.
JT It is not that we need the Priest, that we have had previously, but “such a high priest became
us”, because we are looked at in the light of divine purpose, and in the greatness of our calling.
JP It would be a most interesting moment if the light of this should break in upon our souls.
JT It brings you out of all human littleness into the greatness of your calling. It is not what we are here as in the flesh: it is the saints viewed according to divine purpose.
JB As God sees them in relation to Christ.
JT As Balaam saw them. Balaam sees the people having his eyes open, and we want to get our eyes open to see the true lineage and heavenly calling of the saints. What might have been seen inside the tents of Israel has often been remarked upon: there was not much beauty in the people after the flesh. Here it is the saints viewed from the divine standpoint.
JP If we could come into “the vision of the Almighty”, and apprehend the greatness of the saints in the light of the calling, it would be a great thing for us.
JT Not wishing to be anything here. The man who enters into the calling of God is the man who takes the place of nothingness here.
Ques I would like to know what you mean by the company?
JT The saints associated with Christ viewed from the divine side.
Ques Does that take in every saint?
JT Yes, from the divine side. There are very few saints great enough morally to take this up. No man in the light of this would think of himself as great because of his social status. An understanding of the heavenly calling makes nothing of us as men.
JP Do you not think that if the light of what is set forth in chapter 2 were in our souls (the many sons that are being brought to glory, and the Sanctifier and sanctified being all of one, for which cause the [p. 327] Lord is not ashamed to call us brethren), we would be prepared for what we find about the company later in the epistle?
Ques What would you say verse 23 means? “And they have been many priests, on account of being hindered from continuing by death; but he, because of his continuing forever, has the priesthood unchangeable”. Hebrews 7: 23.
JP It is the contrast between the many priests under the law and the one Priest now. There had to be many because they kept dying.
JB “He ever liveth”. I was thinking of Eli, his son, and the name of the child that was born — Ichabod. The ark was taken, and so direct connection with God was broken.
JP The glory had departed.
JT The connection was again recovered by Samuel, the prophet; then the ark of the covenant was placed in Zion by the king, who had been raised up in mercy.
Rem Then there is a day coming when the company will be right.
JT That is so now from the divine side and you could not have to say to God in connection with the tabernacle were it not true. We should prove our greatness as to God’s calling by accepting the place of nothingness here. The knowledge of our calling is a secret to ourselves.
We cannot enter into the assembly privilege unless we take account of ourselves from the divine side. As the brethren of Christ we are not viewed as in flesh and blood, but as derived from Him as the Corn of wheat who fell into the ground and died. The disciples come into view as His brethren directly He rose from the dead, but they were incapable of taking this up apart from the work of the Holy Ghost in them.
[p. 328] Ques Does the company derive its greatness from the fact of its connection with Christ?
JT From the fact of its having been derived from Him. “He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”. Hebrews 2: 11.
JB I do not see how we can be maintained apart from the knowledge of that. I was going to speak of it in regard to David: if you have an exalted position God gives you capability to walk in it.
Rem . Romans 8: 29 gives the other side. The point there is that Christ might be the Firstborn among many brethren.
JT Romans 8: 29, and Hebrews 1: 9, correspond but Hebrews 2: 11, and Hebrews 7: 26, set forth the greatness of the company. “Such a high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens”.
Ques Would you say that the heavens are not high enough for Him?
JT I would, He has passed beyond all heavens.
JB “Jesus, the Son of God”.
JP The characteristics of the saints in the light of the heavenly calling may be learned from the characteristics of the One who became them. He is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens”. It is marvellous.
JT The distinctive place of the church is indicated. While the tabernacle represented not only what is in heaven, but what will be on earth, Christians come into the heavenly side; they are made partakers of the heavenly calling. The church has the great privilege of sharing the sanctification of Christ, and at the same time having a place in the heavenlies. Whilst the world and the Jew are still under the power of evil, God has begun to work in that which will have the first place in connection with Christ in His universe. The “church of the firstborn enregistered in heaven”. Hebrews 12: 23.
JP And as you said we are privileged to be in the light of it all now. The day is coming when it will be openly displayed. The whole universe will have to recognise this company in the glory of Christ.
JT The disciples (Luke 10) were not to rejoice because the demons were subject to them. “Rather rejoice”, the Lord said, “because your names are written in heaven”. Luke 10: 20.
Ques What was the force of that?
JT I think it was that they were to be in every way conformed to Him, sharing His place in heaven. There are other families who will not have that privilege. The Lord says, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven”. Luke 10: 18. His place will be occupied by Christ and the church.
JB In the end of chapter 6 Christ has entered as Forerunner for us. We shall all get there.
JT Chapter 7 verse 26, shows that we are great enough to be there. We shall not feel when we get to heaven that we are out of place. We shall have been formed for it.
When we come into display publicly we shall be perfectly equal to it. Properly it requires a great man to be a king. The saints are great because of their lineage. People think they can testify for God as in the flesh, but they cannot, because they are not great enough. They cannot do it because of what God is. None but priests (those who have to say to God in His own sphere), can bear testimony of God.
JP Saints have suffered greatly from this system of reduction. Almost every feature of the truth has been reduced to the level of man’s mind. There is hardly a word more common in Christendom than testimony, but the thought of testimony needs [p. 330] to be enlarged and exalted in the apprehension of our souls. It is a very wonderful and blessed thing.
JT I think you see it in Paul, who in writing to the Corinthians, said, “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech, or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God;” then he goes on to say that his word was “in demonstration of the Spirit, and of power”. 1 Corinthians 2: 1,4. That was suitable. I think it is a very serious thing to attempt to render testimony on the part of God aside from the evidences of divine power, because it discredits Him: it reduces the idea of God to the level of man’s mind.
Rem In Peter we get the holy priests before the royal priests.
JT Yes, the holy priests offer up sacrifices acceptable to God by Christ; then we get the royal priests later on. The idea of priesthood is wonderful: God surrounding Himself with people congenial to Him, and such only are capable of representing Him.
JB They will represent Him perfectly in the day to come.
JT You see that in the heavenly city. God delights to surround Himself with priests, and they are to show forth the praises of Him who has called them out of darkness to His marvellous light.
Ques Not only testimony here, but testimony in the heavenlies also, is it not?
JT Yes. In the future this will be seen in the church.
JB It will give light to all the world.
JT Really the company in this epistle form the heavenly city, and you can understand how those in nearness to God would be the reflex of God. The city comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God.
J P. When you come to the wonderful unfolding of all the features of the divine system, chapter 12, the city stands in the front.
[p. 331] Ques Is it more in the light of common people that we are looked at in Hebrews?
JT I do not think so. That is what the Hebrew Christians were in danger of returning to. The flesh does not care for priesthood according to the divine idea of it, hence Christendom is a great camp of common people. There is consequently no order nor testimony according to God.
JP And no service for God.
Rem The flesh is completely excluded from priesthood.
JT The very idea of priesthood precludes the flesh entirely. Christ as Priest was anointed with oil in the right of His own Person. With us, as priests, the blood precedes the oil: an indication that the flesh must go.
Rem In the Roman Catholic church they have gone back to Old Testament ideas as to priests, etc., but they do not go in for priesthood in the true sense.
JT When light comes to people they realise that the systems set up in Christendom do not represent the true tabernacle. A real priest always looks for the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man. There is not a sect in Christendom pitched by the Lord. It is very easy to tell who pitched each one of them. The great comfort I have is that I am not compelled to associate myself with anything man has pitched. If you cannot associate yourself with what is according to the tabernacle the Lord has pitched, you can stand alone.
Ques Where do you find the tabernacle now?
JT It is a question of the system connected with Christ in heaven.
Ques Would you say the great thing is to be in the light of it in your soul?
JT Yes. Sometimes we hear it said, “I must associate myself with something, and so I have adopted the best I can find”. But the true priest says, “I can go on with nothing but the tabernacle: it is in regard to it I am made a priest”.
If you take the tabernacle away from the priests, as we were saying yesterday, their occupation is gone.
Ques What does the tabernacle stand for?
JT The tabernacle stands for all things. It represents that blessed system of things which God has formed for His own pleasure: that in which He shines out, and in which He is ministered to by man. You will find that directly a priest appears he will look for the tabernacle, and will begin to speak of it.
JP The idea of the tabernacle continues for ever: the tabernacle of God is to be “with men”,
Ques What would you say is the difference between the tabernacle and the temple?
JT The tabernacle was connected with the journeying of the people, and so had to be moved from place to place: it belonged properly to wilderness circumstances: there is not much said of it in Canaan, although it continued until the temple was built. But the temple refers to a fixed state of things: it is a fixed, permanent abode.
JP They drew out the staves of the ark when it was brought into the temple — it was fixed. The church is said to grow to a holy temple in the Lord.