READING IN EXODUS
[p. 393] READING IN EXODUS
Exodus 16, Exodus 17 and Exodus 18.
RSS You were saying this morning that in eating the passover we appropriate Christ as sacrificed for sin; this is in connection with Egypt, but in the wilderness we have the manna, which is Christ again.
JT Yes, the passover-lamb was food: it is food for the soul as judging sin, and so in Exodus it stands at the beginning of the soul’s history. The manna presents Christ according to what He was as here in the flesh in His daily life in a world of contrariety.
As having to do practically with the world of the flesh, and having the flesh in ourselves, we have to maintain constantly a distinct sense that Christ suffered for sin; but we have also to do with a contrary scene, a scene where there is nothing to support or minister to us: Christ has been in this, and the grace that shone in Him in it becomes food to us.
The teaching pf Exodus up to chapter 19 is on the divine side: it is all a question of pure grace on the part of God.
JP It is a very beautiful section in that way. In spite of the murmuring of the people you get this wonderful ministration of pure grace on the part of God.
JT Chapter 12 speaks of movement, but the movement there is not the same at all as the movement spoken of in chapter 15. In chapter 15 they take three days’ journey in the wilderness, and that is not the same idea as movement out of Egypt. Chapters 12, 13 and 14 give us typically the movement of our souls as coming to a distinct judgment of what Egypt is: we wish to leave it, and the death and resurrection of Christ open up a way out of it to God. You are brought to God and then you begin the wilderness journey.
They take three days’ journey and meet with [p. 394] Marah; then following upon that they reach Elim; then the manna and the smitten rock, leading on to chapter 17, which introduces a new character entirely — Joshua. All this refers to individual experience: the road traversed in our souls.
JG What answers to Marah now?
JT I think the things that come upon us in the way of discipline, etc.; things which we would abhor as in the flesh, but the cross makes them sweet. Taking up the position which the acceptance of the gospel involves (that the world is a wilderness, Christ having died out of it), the believer encounters these things, and at first they are bitter, but the Spirit enables him to apply the cross, and then all is changed — he glories in tribulations.
JP I think you said that the twelve wells of water at Elim are a figure of the ministry of the Spirit in the assembly?
JT Yes, I think they are.
JP You are not in the assembly when you are drinking the bitter water of Marah. It is your individual path really in the wilderness, and it is what comes against you consequent upon your having taken up such a path.
JT I think Marah signifies the things which the believer meets with in his experience which indicate God’s refusal of the flesh in him — that which brought Christ under the waters of judgment. The judgment which is destruction to man in the flesh (the Egyptian), becomes to the Christian, because Christ has been in it, sweet and wholesome discipline.
Rem These things foreshadow what we meet with in the wilderness.
JT They are types of what we have really. These chapters are for Christians, and have their own language, and you will have to understand the language in order to understand them. Unless we [p. 395] understand the typical books we shall be under great disadvantages in our daily experience.
Rem Elim represents the ministry of the Spirit it is different to Numbers 21: “spring up, O well”, etc. Numbers 21: 17.
JT Yes; the Spirit is with the people from Exodus 15 onwards, although not viewed as characteristic of their state until you come to Numbers 21. There they sing to the Holy Ghost typically, “spring up, O well; sing ye unto it”. Numbers 21: 17. When the flesh is practically displaced in us Canaan comes quickly into view.
WHF Would you say that as typified in Elim the Holy Ghost is rather on God’s side as refreshment, if one might so express it, and after Numbers 21 He comes in on our side Yes, that is what I think. The twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees must apply to what was to be found in the assembly at the beginning, for it was only there you could get the refreshment of the Holy Ghost and the protection of those who were gifted. Of course Elim remains for us, as also does Marah; but anyone can see the difference between them, although water is seen in both cases. I feel that it is only as you drink the waters of Marah that you get a taste for the waters of Elim: that is, the more you accept the circumstances which mean death to the flesh, the greater will be your taste for and appreciation of divine things. Hence you value coming into contact with the saints where the ministry of the Holy Ghost is, and where there is protection. Everybody who knows anything about the wilderness knows the value of the seventy palm trees. I have never been in a wilderness, but I know what it is to be in a position where the sun is beating down upon you, and you want to find shelter. Here in the midst of the desert you get shelter — seventy palm trees.
[p. 396] That is what Elim presents — a place of shelter and refreshment.
RSS But Marah does not set forth exactly the trials that are common to flesh. It is rather in connection, as you were saying a moment ago, with the position you have taken up as a believer.
JT. Yes; in the light of the death of Christ the things which you would dread naturally you now regard as in your favour.
Ques Would you connect Exodus 19: 4, “I bare you on eagles’ wings”, with Ephesians 1: 19, “what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power”, etc.?
JT All is on God’s side up to chapter 19. “Eagles’ wings” mean the power of God by which the people had been carried, regardless of their conduct, to Him. He supported the people and made no complaint as to their conduct. I think it is a great thing for every believer to be established in the sense of the grace of God. Even if there is bad conduct (which is never to be excused), God is for you.
Ques What would you understand by the children of Israel meeting Marah just after obtaining this wonderful deliverance?
JT I think it is what every one experiences; that is, you rejoice in the blessed light of God that comes about through the glad tidings. That is chapter 15. But when you turn and have to do experimentally with what has to be gone through in everyday life, you find the element of the flesh in you, and things happen that are objectionable to you, but as supported and enlightened by God you come to see that what the flesh refuses is the best thing for you. This is Marah. Then you get following close upon that, Elim. That is, God has made wonderful provision for you outside of yourself [p. 397] in the assembly. You will understand what I am speaking about. It is not a question of putting the assembly in the place of Christ, but the twelve wells of water do not represent Christ personally; neither do the seventy palm trees. They represent what Christ has placed here for the refreshment and protection of the believer.
Rem They are in the desert.
JT Yes, but Elim is surely not a desert. Everybody knows that where you get seventy palm trees and twelve wells that it is not a desert. It is in the desert, but is not a desert, You can understand that although Marah is there for the believer, the wilderness without Elim would be a dreadful place. It is dreadful enough as it is, but with Elim you can go through it. The personal support of Christ and His leadership are treated of further on in this book.
Rem So they abode by Elim.
JP And they encamped there by the waters: not by the trees, but by the waters.
Ques I wanted to ask you about the assembly being here, and placed here by Christ. While the assembly is not Christ, He is connected with it, and with every blessing, and without Him, of course, it could not be anything?
JT Quite so, only the twelve wells of water point to ministry, and allude to the apostles, I think; the seventy palm trees having allusion, I judge, to the seventy the Lord sent out; but we must always remember that the Lord said, “without me ye can do nothing”. John 15: 5.
WHF Only here you have distinctly the ministry of the Spirit.
JT It indicates a spot where there is water and shelter. You and I ought to be able to give an account of where [p. 398] that is.
WHF I think we have proved that we get shelter and refreshment in the assembly.
Rem At the same time that is much marred by the failure that has come in, and we do not experience the same blessing that we would had there been no failure.
JT We can never get what they had at the beginning, but where the saints are walking in the light of the church, and the Lord is given His place, and the Holy Ghost is given His place, you get Elim in measure.
Rem In connection with Elim I was thinking of Psalm 23: 1,2. “The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters”. Would that not answer to Elim? So after all it is the Lord who brings you there, and leads you as the Shepherd.
JT Yes.
GWH Would you say something about the manna? That is, chapter 16.
JT That is distinctively Christ. It is not the assembly, nor has it anything directly to do with the assembly. I take the manna to be Christ according to what He was here among men in humility, in flesh.
GWH Like Philippians 2, “humbled here”.
JT Yes, in that way. “Christ once humbled here”.
GWH For us as individuals?
JT Yes, it is the food for you in your everyday life. You have something to live by every day. That is what the manna was for.
Ques Would that be like the bread of life in John 6?
JT No, that is a different thought, and you have a different thought still in the old corn of the land.
JP [p. 399] John is not comparison. It is contrast really to the manna. It is not the relation of type and anti-type.
JT The bread in John 6 is not for everyday support at all. It is for life: it is that a man might eat and live, and live for ever.
Ques So that would be more in view of the land, would you say?
JT Yes.
GWH “He that eateth me even he shalt live by me”. John 6: 57.
RSS It says, “Except ye eat ... ye have no life”. John 6: 53.
JT “Have no life in yourselves”.
RSS “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died”. John 6: 49.
JT Yes, they ate and died. It is a contrast to “He that eateth this bread shall live for ever”. John 6: 58. John 6 is a question of life. It is not a question of sustenance in your path of responsibility; eating there is for life. The Lord says, “The bread withal which I shall give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”. John 6: 51.
RSS The manna would be for the believer also?
JT It is only for the believer, but viewed as in his mortal condition — a condition which comes to an end. Manna is for a people already in relationship with God, but in the wilderness; in John 6 “any one” who eats the bread of life lives for ever. The manna is not Christ as having died; it refers to what He was here in the flesh among men; but it was “bread from heaven”.
JP The last verse but one of this chapter indicates the sphere in which the manna was eaten, and the period of its duration; “And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came [p. 400] to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan”. Exodus 16: 35.
JT Later it says: “The manna ceased on the morrow after the passover”. Joshua 5: 12. After they entered Canaan the manna ceased, but the bread in John 6 is not supposed to cease.
RSS “For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving as an example, that ye should follow his steps”. 1 Peter 2: 19 - 21. Such a Scripture as this shows that Christ, as here in the flesh, should be before the believer in his path of responsibility. We shall find that He has been before us in every circumstance.
JP As you said, a new person is introduced in chapter 17 — Joshua. What answers in our experience to Joshua as presented here?
JT I think Joshua is Christ as the spiritual Leader of His people. It dawns upon you now that you have a new Leader, and you fall into line, as it were, with Him. It is Christ in a spiritual way, not in connection with redemption.
Ques Is it in connection with conflict?
JT It is. This is the first mention you have of the people being in conflict, and Joshua is the characteristic leader of the saints of God in connection with conflict.
GWH The nature of the conflict here differs from what you get later on. That is to say, Amalek is in view.
JT Yes. It is not a question of the inheritance here, not a question of dislodging those who are in the land. It is Satan working through the flesh. The water from the smitten rock typifies the Spirit in [p. 401] believer in connection with the death of Christ, It is consequent upon this there is conflict with Amalek, and Christ is known in a new way: He is our Leader in connection with the Spirit in us against Satan in the flesh. There is also priesthood on high, as prefigured in Moses on the mount — Christ at the right hand of God.
There was to be war with Amalek from generation to generation. Moses depended on Aaron and Hur to support his hands, but the hands of the Lord Jesus need no such support. In this conflict we discover in our souls what it is to have to do with satanic power in the flesh, and what it is to have continual support from Christ on high in combating with it.
JP It is remarkable the language used here. Notice that word “prevailed”. “And it came to pass when Moses held up his hand that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed”. Exodus 17: 11. Amalek does not seem to be killed. God says, “I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven”, Exodus 17: 14, but that is not yet. What goes on now is what you alluded to in the last verse: “The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation”. Exodus 17: 16. Amalek is there. If he had been blotted out the war could not go on from generation to generation, hence the great need of our understanding how he is to be met.
Ques Would you say a little about Moses, and Aaron and Hur holding up his hands when they were heavy?
JT I think we must take the types more in their general bearing. We must always remember these things were shadows, and not the exact image of what they represent. The great shadow that you see here is a man on high with his hands uplifted, and another man below leading an army in combat;
[p. 402] so it is not difficult to see what is in question: the support of the Priest on high, and the guidance of the spiritual Leader below, and the saints under Him in conflict. That is what is seen clearly in the type.
RSS And it is Christ in both instances.
JP What do you think about chapter 18?
JT You will notice that Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro, appears there. “And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God”. Exodus 18: 12. I think that is a wonderful scene. It is a forecast really of the consummation: that is, the Gentile being brought in, together with Israel, to share the blessing of God. So the presentation of the truth up to this point is complete from the divine side. The “king in Jeshurun” was there: Moses is in the midst of the people as king. “And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people”. Exodus 18: 13. Then in chapter 19, we read: “And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to myself”. Exodus 19: 3,4. God had done all this for them. He had borne them on eagles’ wings and brought them to Himself. What I see especially is the importance of the believer being established in the knowledge of God revealed in Christ; these chapters set forth the terms on which He is with us. It is an immense advantage to us, that even if failure does arise (and failure arises with every one of us), there is no change with God. He is unchangeable, and many believers are hindered in not knowing this. Because when failure arises, they become occupied with it instead of with God, hence [p. 403] the failure becomes magnified, and Satan gains an advantage.
JP “It is a good thing that the heart be established with grace”. Hebrews 13: 9. What you have been saying is of great importance to us. The day of failure tests our faith, and if not established in the knowledge of God, and all that He is in grace toward us, the enemy will beat us down.
JT Hence the Lord says, “I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not”. Luke 22: 32. Even if failure does arise the thing to make sure of is that you do not let go the thought of what God is. You are not any worse than you were when He took you up first, and that is an immense advantage. You do not make light of the failure, or sin; that has to be dealt with, but be sure you are maintained consciously in the sense of what God is.
Rem I suppose that would lead to forbearance with one another.
JT I think it would, because you would act like God acts. God is forbearing with us, and the more you advance in divine things the more you are like God in your ways toward others. A thing that has affected me greatly is the length of time God has borne patiently with me, and I believe the more we grow in the knowledge of God the more we are prepared to be patient with one another.
JP I think the parable we get in Matthew 18 is striking in that way. The servant who was forgiven ten thousand talents shows he had no sense of the grace of his lord in forgiving him that immense debt, or he never would have acted toward his fellow-servant who owed him one hundred pence in the way he did.
JT No believer should think for a moment that God passes over his guilt or his sins; but that is one thing, and it is another for us to permit the [p. 404] enemy to make the sin so heinous in our minds as to think God can have no more dealing with us.
JP That is a great deal worse than the failure itself.
JT Yes, because it is unbelief. You know what the enemy would do is to produce unbelief.
RSS I am sure what you are speaking of is exceedingly important. I do not suppose we have any idea of how many real Christians there are who suffer fearfully from depression because of not knowing God in grace.
JT 1 John 1, is most helpful in this connection. “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin” 1 John 1: 7. It is not fellowship with God exactly there. The apostles’ fellowship was with the Father, and with His Son, but this is fellowship one with another. Sin would mar fellowship with one another, hence is added immediately: “And the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin”. That is, we ought to view one another in the light of the blood, and really it is only in that way we can get along in fellowship with one another. The blood cleanses from all sin. I can take that home to myself, but it applies to you also. Sin has to be judged, but the soul has an immense advantage in knowing that the blood cleanses — that is its value. Then further, if we confess God forgives and cleanses from all unrighteousness. Apart from all this there could not be fellowship in the light as God is in the light. But our souls have also to be maintained in communion with God, and provision is made for this too: “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world”. 1 John 2: 1. There I think [p. 405] your soul is maintained in relation to God, the Father.
Ques Would you say a word about the covenant?
JT The first covenant, whilst it had a literal application to Israel, had also a typical signification. It is a wonderful thought that God should enter into covenant with men; and He indicates here what was in His mind for Israel. He says, “If ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation”. Exodus 19: 5,6. But the weakness of the first covenant is seen in the fact that the realisation of what was in God’s mind for the people depended on their faithfulness — “If ye will obey my voice”, etc.
Ques Would you say the children of Israel failed on the ground of responsibility, and God on the ground of grace has brought us into this? We get in Revelation, “And hath made us kings and priests unto God”. Revelation 1: 6. That is on the ground of redemption, is it not?
JT Yes; Peter speaks of this also “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people”. 1 Peter 2: 9. Every thought God gave expression to previously has found its answer in the church by the Spirit. Now the Jews never really reached the thought of God for them. They never were a kingdom of priests, and, although they had been a people, they ceased to be such; now Christians are God’s people: “Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God”. 1 Peter 2: 10.
The first covenant did not effect anything for God, hence He found fault with it and introduces the second. But as we have been saying, the first was typical, and the place it occupies in this book [p. 406] corresponds with the order in which we are instructed in the knowledge of God. The earlier chapters set forth the righteousness and power of God, and the grace in which He deals with us; but the covenant sets forth what is in His heart for us. It corresponds to Romans 5: 5 — “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us”. Consequent on this we love God and desire to prepare Him a habitation. The construction of the tabernacle, therefore, naturally follows the covenant.
But although God found fault with the first covenant we must not conclude that He abandoned what was enjoined therein. Every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled. It was said of the Lord that He magnified the law and made it honourable. The fact is that the essence of the first covenant is embodied in the second, only that what characterises the second is that it is all a question of what God does: “I will write”; “I will put”: “I will remember no more”. Hebrews 8: 10, 12. In the first instance He gave the commandment to expose the heart which undertook to keep it and could not; in the second He gives not only the commandment, but also the heart to keep it. The law was in Christ’s heart, now its righteous requirement is fulfilled in us by the Spirit, and in the future it will be in the hearts of God’s earthly people, and written in their minds: That which is “holy, and just and good”, (Romans 7: 12) and that in which the renewed mind delights, and more important still, that which is a declaration of God’s rights, cannot fall to the ground.