LIFE
LIFE
Ezekiel 37: 1 - 14 John 20: 19 - 23
RSS What is the connection between redemption as we had it this morning, and life as we have it in the scriptures read?
JT Redemption is that in which the soul apprehends Christ first; and the Lord is to have a place in our affections as Redeemer. I think the chapter read this morning (Revelation 5) shews clearly the place He is to have in that character. He is seen in the midst of the throne as a Lamb slain, and then there is the celebration, on the part of the redeemed, of Him as the Redeemer. But redemption is not all that is necessary; we require to live. The Lord is to be known to our souls as the life-giver, which I think is the point of view in John’s gospel. Man’s state not only involves the need of redemption; the vital principle has to be introduced. This is not only needed because the sentence of death was upon man, but because of man s weakness; he is incapable of any movement toward God.
FL So in John 5 we get the man who had been impotent for thirty-eight years made well, so that he carries his bed. “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live”. John 5: 25.
JT I think that man serves to illustrate what is in view in this respect in John; it is a state of impotency in man. No vitality, no energy there: so that we require to see that the Lord is the life-giving Spirit. He makes us to live in the sense that we have power to walk and praise God.
WLP That comes with the Spirit?
JT It is the Spirit in that way. It is not the Spirit as presented in Acts 2, coming in a collective way; it is the Spirit given to each individual by Christ; the imparting of life to the [p. 445] individual.
FL As seen in John 20: 22, “He breathed on them and saith ... Receive ye the Holy Spirit”.
JT John 20 is pattern; the Lord is seen as He who infuses life into the creation. What is to become universal takes place in that upper room. He is there as the beginning of God’s creation.
JP He acts formally there as the last Adam, the life-giving Spirit. Do I understand that what you had in your mind was that the Lord must have His place in our hearts — that we must know him not only as Redeemer and come to own His rights in that way, but also as the life-giver?
JT I think believers have to see that the gospel in itself, however clearly presented and understood, imparts nothing to us. There has to be an individual transaction with Christ.
WHF Would Matthew 25 illustrate that? The foolish virgins had no oil, and wanted it from the wise. The wise ones declined to give it to them, for fear that they themselves should not have enough; they told them to go to those that sold, and buy for themselves, and while they were gone the bridegroom came, and the wise virgins went in with him and the foolish ones were shut out.
JT They might have got oil from the Lord.
JP Will you say a little in regard to the necessity of preaching the gospel? If the gospel is not that which confers life, what is the necessity of preaching it?
JT Preaching the gospel is necessary in order to attract men to the source of it.
Ques “How shall they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10: 14.
JT Men get enlightened as to the source; and the effect of the gospel rightly understood is that it produces confidence. So that you turn to the One who gives.
FL Life and incorruptibility have come to light through the gospel, but it does not impart life.
JP The gospel comes in “to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God”. Acts 26: 18.
JT The effect is that you turn to God. The great thing is for people to go to God. I have not any hesitation about advising people to go to God in prayer, entirely irrespective of their state. Whatever your state or history may be, God will hear you. Pray to Him for what you need. I refer, of course, to such needs as men are conscious of who feel after God. I would ask God for anything at all that I felt the need of in my relation to Him.
JP Would you tell anybody to ask of God?
JT The gospel is that which induces belief, because it brings to the heart of man that God is good and compassionate.
JG John 4 shews that: the woman gets light and then asks, “Sir, give me this water”. John 4: 15.
JT Christ was there on the part of God; God was giving. God has intervened for man’s deliverance and salvation. If a man is enlightened, his soul is put into touch with God. Not that he gets salvation at that instant; but he is put into touch with God. God is the giver.
JG Having light from God as to what He gives, you then turn to God for it?
JT I think turning to God involves that. You have needs in your soul, and you are conscious that the Author of the gospel is the One to turn to in regard to them. I think it is a point of the greatest importance that believers should accustom themselves to asking of God.
Ques Do you think the soul is affected apart from the gospel?
JT The new birth takes place apart from the gospel.
Ques The soul might turn to God before it hears the [p. 447] gospel?
JT I do not think so. Because you cannot turn to Him if you do not hear about Him. The gospel brings to your soul what God is; the Giver of Christ to accomplish redemption, and the Giver of the Spirit.
JP 1 Thessalonians shows what the effect of the gospel is when it is received. The apostle relates how the gospel was preached to them and they turned to God from idols.
PAES The Spirit of God brought the gospel home to their souls, and they got the blessing?
JT Aside from new birth, men do not value the blessing.
FL Unless there has been that divine operation, men cannot appreciate it: they cannot discern it, and they cannot enter into it.
Do you take Ezekiel 37, as given in connection with the Israel of the coming day, as being a figure of the whole work of God in imparting life to them and bringing them into the sphere of resurrection?
JT Yes; and I think the chapter might be taken to indicate how every soul is brought into life.
FL There is a moving of what is in death and corruption, and there is a proclamation to it, and there is a stir brought about, but the imparting of life is separate.
JT That was in connection with the “breath”. The sinews, flesh, etc., came upon them, “but there was no breath in them”. Ezekiel 37: 8. Then Ezekiel prophesied to the wind, and breath came into them, and the bones lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Man needs the vital element and this Christ gives.
RSS Where does new birth come in here?
JT You might connect it with the bones taking form and the sinews and the flesh coming upon them. What is in view is the bringing of Israel into life and that nothing of the nation is lost, for the bones represented the whole house of Israel. God’s thought in regard to Israel is secured through resurrection.
FL I suppose the moral exercises of Israel which answer to new birth you get in other connections. Ezekiel 37 was simply getting the point of view from God’s side — that absolutely nothing is lost; it is the complete Israel secured in life. God brings them out of their graves and causes them to live.
JT John 20 coincides with this in principle. What the Lord did to the disciples in breathing into them, He will do in a universal way in the future.
FL The death of Christ had really put them apart in that upper room; they were outside the whole course of things in the world. The world knew nothing of them and took no account of them. The Lord comes in upon them as the last Adam and imparts the Spirit of life; it is the beginning of the creation of God.
JT That is just what it is. He had accomplished redemption, and now He is free, and so He breathes into the disciples that which will pervade all in the future — the breath of life.
FL So that in time we see now set forth that which will become universal.
JT The Lord is not only able to take up the right to redeem; He is able to introduce life into the scene. The Psalmist pleads for the praise of Jehovah, but what we see in Christ is that He brings in that which is responsive to Jehovah; that is to say, He gives the breath — “Let everything that has breath praise Jehovah”. Psalm 150: 6. There must be the breath, or there will be no praise for God.
WLP Would you connect this with Genesis 1?
JT What I think comes out in Genesis is that God as such creates everything. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;” (Genesis 1: 1) and then out of a chaotic state He brings the present physical order of things. Adam had nothing to do with all this; he was placed in connection with it, but was himself [p. 449] a creature; he was, however, a figure of Him that was to come. But the coming One does not take up His place in creation simply; He brings in a creation. Christ brings in a creation; Adam could not do that. In John 20, Christ begins the creation of God. Into that circle the breath of life was introduced, and as a result there was praise. “In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee”. Psalm 22: 22.
FL After Christ’s resurrection, the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of their graves and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. That, I take it, was a witness of the greatness of the Person of Christ, and was a testimony given to many in the holy city. It was adequate testimony to what was prophesied in Ezekiel.
Ques Does the fact of a soul being redeemed give it life?
JT No. Redemption comes in the way of light as to what God has effected in Christ apart from us altogether; life is consequent on this, and is received from Christ in a subjective way.
PAES He prophesies to the wind and then the breath comes.
JP It is very distinct. The breath came into them and they lived.
JT I take it that, the vessel being formed for the reception of the Spirit, He enters into it. Those in the upper room had been formed — the sinews and the flesh had come upon them; then the Lord breathes on them, saying, “Receive ye the Holy Spirit”. John 20: 22.
RSS As in Genesis 2, man was formed of the dust of the earth, and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul.
JT The order is the same.
FL In 1 Corinthians 15 emphasis is laid upon resurrection, and so here: “Ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my [p. 450] people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shalt put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord”. Ezekiel 37: 13,14. After the Lord’s resurrection, He brings the saints out of their graves — they know that He is the Lord.
JT J suppose Israel at the present time are in their graves; that is, the nations have become, in a way, the grave of Israel. They not only require the graves opened, but they are to be made to live.
ARS Does this not coincide with Daniel 12?
JT There they awake to “everlasting life”. But I should like to keep to what is in view here; that is, the question of the vital principle to be introduced into man.
JS It is only as receiving the Spirit (the “breath”) that they were able to stand up on their feet and walk.
J .T. Therefore in this chapter the point is not eternal life, but life as power — that by which we stand up and walk.
JP If anything answers to eternal life here it is this: “I shall place you in your own land”. Ezekiel 37: 14.
RSS I think you said this morning that life is presented in two ways: potentially, and also in regard to a sphere. What you are looking at now is the first.
JT What each individual has to receive from Christ is the vital principle, not exactly the Holy Spirit as given to the church; but the Holy Spirit as given to the individual believer.
FL When you say potentially, of course you speak of life as a matter of power?
JT Yes, as in verse 10 “So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army”. Ezekiel 37: 10. Life as a matter of enjoyment is a different thing; it is not a question of power only, but that you are at ease in the calm enjoyment of God’s favour. But what precedes that is the getting of power.
Ques The man in Acts 3?
JT Yes. He walked and leaped.
JG Again, in John 5 the man lay there thirty-eight years in view of God’s provision and could not make use of it. The man had no ability.
JT I think that apart from life in a potential sense eternal life could not be touched by us.
WHF “The law of the Spirit of life” (Romans 8: 2); can this be connected with it?
JT Yes. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death. In result, God receives glory from man: everything that hath breath praises. There is no breath in the natural man; there is no breath in what we see around us — the organ in the church and the choir. It is all dead. The Lord is ready at any time to give the Spirit. You cannot praise God without breath.
Ques Is it not that which we get in Psalm 22: 3 “But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel”?
JT Yes; God inhabits the praise of His people. But every individual has to do with God. “Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord”. Psalm 150: 6.
FL Your point, as I understand it, is a very simple one. Dead in trespasses and sins describes the actual condition of man, and, as such, he has nothing to say to God, and has no knowledge; anything vital towards God is an impossibility. It is a state of death, and if there is to be a vital energy — life — it must come from Christ; and you cannot respond to God until life is imparted; and when life is imparted to you you become a “living soul” in the true sense of the word.
JT Yes. In receiving the Spirit from Christ, you receive that which is in itself life. “The Spirit is life, because of righteousness”. Romans 8: 10. But the possession of the [p. 452] Spirit in itself will not do: there must be the formative work of the Spirit. But there are many believers who have not the Spirit.
FL What about the woman in John 4: 10, “If thou knewest the gift of God”, etc.?
JT The living water and the Spirit of life both refer to the Holy Spirit. Living water is different from the Spirit of life however. What a dead man requires is life; what a thirsty man requires is water. The woman had drunk deep into the pleasures of this world, but they had not satisfied her; she was thirsty. Christ gives living water.
JG She says, “Give me this water, that I thirst not”. John 4: 15.
RSS Is that a further thought than the first?
JT The first really is that God would secure His thought in man. Man is really incapable of answering to God, because he has no vitality, and the Lord Jesus introduces vitality, so that God should secure what He has in His mind with regard to man. But there is the need of souls, and John 4 gives that side. The giving of the Spirit of life is that which insures response to God in a redeemed creation throughout eternity. The living water meets the thirst of man, and it springs up into everlasting life. The Spirit takes possession of the affections of the believer and so controls them that they are directed into new channels. These lead to life eternal.
CHB With that water, she would never thirst again.
JT She had no conception then of what the Lord was speaking about. Where He puts Himself in moral contact with her is when He says, “Thou hast had five husbands”. John 4: 18. As regards the gift of God — she knew nothing of God.
CHB In giving her of the living water, she found the source in which she did not need to take the springs [p. 453] of the world.
JT She had no conception whatever of what the Lord was speaking about; but He knew what He was speaking about, and it is recorded for our instruction. She did not say anything in the city about the living water; she said, “Come, see a man which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?” John 4: 29. John 20 is the beginning of God’s creation. Christ infuses life into a creation which is to remain and in which God secures all His thoughts.
JS John 4 is a different presentation.
Ques You find numbers of people — saints — who are fully persuaded in their minds that they can get no enjoyment in this world, and they have inward enjoyment in the Lord Himself and are quite happy in the Lord; but when it comes to really praising the Lord and coming into the banqueting house, and all that, you find they have not got far; they are not able to praise the Lord. What is the matter?
JT If they do not know what is the matter with them, it would be a very good thing for them to turn to the Lord.
Rem They have prayed, but do not seem to make progress in worship.
JT If they are really exercised, they will make progress. If there is a genuine exercise and turning to God, I am perfectly certain that the soul will get on. I never knew it to fail. We should turn to God in prayer about all our difficulties.
RSS I imagine that the man who is conscious of his ignorance is on a very good road to receive blessing. And the people who are conscious of their inability to praise God will get help in that line if they look to Him as to it.
CHB Do all believers have to ask for the Spirit?
JT No. The Spirit is given on the part of Christ to believers, but I am inclined to believe that a normal effect of the gospel coming to the soul is that the [p. 454] person — I am not speaking now of any formal way, but in the heart — turns to God. You turn to God; you feel that He is your only hope. When light comes to a man it makes him very serious; he feels a great many wants, and he turns to God.
Ques You said many believers have not the Spirit. Will you make it a little more plain? What kind of believers would they be?
JT The result of bad teaching and the like. I would say that they were the Lord’s; they have light, but there is no vitality: they are not different from other people in their movements.
PAES What do you make of that in Ephesians 1: 13?
JT That was a statement of a fact: “After that ye believed ... ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”.
FL What scriptures do you give as to praying for the Spirit?
JT John 4 and Luke 11. I would cite the effect of the light of God in the heart of man: it produces confidence in God, so that he asks Him for anything he needs,
CHB It would not he praying for the outpouring of the Spirit, would it?
JT No. The Spirit is here, and as here He is available for man, and is God’s gift to man.
Rem In Christendom He is simply regarded as an influence, and I was wondering whether you were thinking of people in Christendom.
JT I think there are many amongst us, breaking bread, who have not the Spirit.
FL They may enjoy forgiveness of sins, but they have never yet learned of the Holy Spirit as a Person, as the gift of God in that way; and so like those at Ephesus, they have not yet received the Spirit. I think I would go as far as this, that I see that through [p. 455] defective or insufficient presentation of the gospel there were, clearly, souls that had not the Spirit; and I am inclined to think that where a soul is in the same conditions, the same thing would be true now. But where there is evidence of a work of God in the soul I would not undertake to say that man has not the Spirit.