UNITY AND PREACHING *(CONTINUED)*
UNITY AND PREACHING (CONTINUED)
JT The passage we had before us this morning indicated the privileges the Gentile christians were brought into, and I think the apostle’s prayer in chapter 3 would be to the end that they might be in accord with these privileges. I judge what would be required for that would be intelligence and love. “Being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”, (Ephesians 3: 18, 19) indicates the thought of the apostle in regard to them, and, I think, all with a view to the divine intention that God should be known down here. God intended to become His own testimony, and this would come to pass in His being seen morally in the saints down here. “Filled unto all the fulness of God”, would involve that God dwelt in the saints, and they in God.
JP And it would seem from the end of chapter 3 that what begins now and here will be carried through eternity. “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. Ephesians 3: 21. I think it is very interesting to see that there is already for God the beginning of that which will be perpetuated throughout eternity.
RSS Would 1 Corinthians 13 confirm that thought? That is, that the two things which abide are intelligence and love? “Now I know partially but then I shall know according as I also have been known. And now abide faith, hope, love; these [p. 216] three things; and the greater of these is love”. 1 Corinthians 13: 13. Knowledge and love abide.
JP Yes.
JT I like to read these chapters in connection with Acts 20. The apostle had unfolded to the Ephesian saints the whole counsel of God, and had enlightened them in regard to their privileges, and then had committed the responsibility of things into the hands of the elders. They were to see his face no more, but were to be responsible. And now, he says, “I commit you to God, and to the word of his grace”. Acts 20: 32. I think the thing was set up perfectly, and it would have been strengthened if God had been allowed His place. So here in Ephesians 3 I think the apostle realises how all depended upon God, hence He prays to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. “For this reason”, he says, “I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”, etc. Ephesians 3: 14. I think he felt that, whilst things were perfectly set up, they had been given into the hands of the elders, and their only safety lay in dependence on God; but I think the elders instead of relying upon God relied upon themselves.
JP Do you not think the apostle anticipated that such would be the ease when he speaks of men arising from among themselves speaking perverted things?
JT Yes. Still the thought holds good that there is no change on God’s side, and God is able to do “exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think” Ephesians 3: 20; so wherever there is a turning to God you will find help in Him.
JP What would you say, generally speaking, characterises chapter 4? You spoke of what we had this morning as setting forth the privileges of the Gentiles who had been brought into this wonderful [p. 217] structure.
JT Yes, and I take it this chapter, up to verse 16, would indicate what you might call family manners; at any rate that which should mark us in our relation to one another.
JP I suppose family manners have reference to the household of God?
JT Yes. Christians are called to be in the house of God. That is where everything that is of God on earth is now. The house is where all privileges are.
Rem So the apostle exhorts them to “walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called”. Ephesians 4: 1.
JT They are brought into the royal abode, so to speak.
Ques What is the vocation? Is that the right word?
JP It is the calling. This chapter follows chapter 2 properly; chapter 3 is parenthetical. Chapter 2 speaks of the “calling”.
JT I think up to the end of verse 16 you get pretty much the inner circle; after that, on to chapter 6 it is more what is external.
JP And so that would lead you on to the conflict in chapter 6?
JT Yes, but evidently the first thing is to know how the saints were to conduct themselves in their relations to one another.
JP That is manifestly what is brought before us in the beginning of the chapter. You get, “With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love”. Ephesians 4: 2. As you said, up to and including verse 16, you get the inner circle, and it is there we are fitted: so what we get here is really the conduct, or manners, that are suited to the place our calling has brought us into.
JT It goes on to say, “Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace”. Ephesians 4: 3. There is no basis for preaching if there is not the [p. 218] unity of the Spirit: that was what the Lord strove to bring to pass; and He slew the enmity. Chapter 2 shows what the Lord did.
JP This must be on our side — using diligence to maintain it practically.
JT As far as Christ was concerned, He effected it perfectly. He brought unity to pass: He established unity, and then He preached. That is what He has done, and now the question is, What are you going to do with it? I think that is pretty much the ground upon which the church was left down here. It was set up perfectly, and in every way qualified to be the ground, the basis, of preaching, and the question was whether it would continue so.
JP It is very clear a few verses further down: the gifts were in full operation, and the divine intention was that their operation was all to be connected with what God had established here.
JT The whole equipment was complete — nothing was lacking. The church was set up in perfection, but in everything given to man’s responsibility there is failure.
RSS We have at the beginning of the chapter the thought of unity, etc., and the going on of the saints together, before the gifts are referred to.
JT I think the gifts are given to the end that the building might be held together and built up. It is important to see what God’s intention was. He intended to display Himself morally down here, and in order to do that there must be a vessel adequate for it, and I think it was with that intention all gifts were given — for the building up of the saints in Christ.
RSS “Unto the edifying of itself in love”. Ephesians 4: 16.
JT Yes.
JP As you were saying, the very first gospel address, Acts 2, really took the form of a sort of explanation, or [p. 219] account, of the blessing.
JT Yes, and the blessing Peter gave an account of was consequent upon the unity of the one hundred and twenty. The Spirit here was consequent on Christ being glorified, as Peter says; but something additional to Christ’s exaltation was really necessary; that is, a suitable vessel to receive the Spirit. The Lord had prepared this, which was the one hundred and twenty.
Rem That day about three thousand souls were added unto them. What the three thousand were brought to was what was found amongst the one hundred and twenty.
JT And it was there prior to the preaching. The unity was there prior to the blessing; the blessing was consequent upon the unity, and the preaching was consequent upon the blessing. “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron’s beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; as the dew of Hermon and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore”. Psalm 133: 1 - 3. That is the order you have here. Peter does not even call attention to it: it did not require that: it was there, and what was required of him was to explain what it meant: to give an account of it. The unity spoken of in Acts 2 was the fruit of the Lord’s personal work in the disciples; unity now can only be by the Spirit.
JP The record of their being together with one accord shows there was unity there prior to the coming of the Holy Ghost.
JT The Spirit of God does not put these things there without a purpose. They were together “with one accord”, and then the Holy Ghost came. The apostle could allude to them and say, “This which ye now see and hear”. Acts 2: 33. What was seen and heard [p. 220] was the effect of the Holy Ghost in the one hundred and twenty.
Ques Bringing that down to our day, how would you connect it with the present state of things?
JT The difficulty today is to get the unity: and if there is no unity, there is no practical sphere of blessing; hence the difficulty now in preaching is that you cannot easily convince people as to the blessing. The great point is to get the saints together in unity. That is clear enough. If you can get them together in that way there is then something to call the attention of man to. However difficult this may be to accept, it is a simple statement of the order seen in Scripture, Acts 2. I believe Christ should be preached even if the unity is not apparent, but the preacher should feel and own the weakness of his position.
Rem I was much interested in what you said yesterday, about building preceding preaching.
JT Well, building and unity are pretty much the same thought, because in divine things building means putting together. It is a very prominent thought in this chapter. The word edify is the same as build: you get the word edifice from edify.
Ques Do you not have to preach before you get people to build in? They have to be converted.
JT The three thousand were built in (or, more correctly, added), but the point to see is that the building was there prior to that, into which to build them.
Ques What was the building?
JT The one hundred and twenty.
Ques Were they preached to?
JT No, they were not preached to: the Lord Jesus put them there. That is what He was doing; He was the true David. David did not build the house, but he prepared the material for it. That is what the Lord Jesus did; He prepared the one [p. 221] hundred and twenty. It was the most marvellous piece of workmanship. They were not preached to; they were the workmanship of Christ. He prepared the material and left it there, and then the Holy Ghost came and formed it into the building.
JP Is it not significant too, what Paul preached at Ephesus: he preached the kingdom.
JT Quite so. He began with twelve men at Ephesus; and he did not form those twelve men. He found them there, but his point was, Have you the Holy Ghost? That is to say, is the blessing here? “Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?” Acts 19: 2. They had never so much as heard if the Holy Ghost had come. There was unity among the twelve men. I believe, but when the Holy Ghost came in and indwelt those twelve men, you have the edifice at Ephesus. So Paul says of them later “Having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”, Ephesians 1: 13.
Ques I am not clear yet as to the thought of preaching. If I wanted to go out and preach today, I am not quite clear as to whether I should go or not.
JT I think the thing is to get the building, the unity. That is what convinces people. Pamphlets or circulars do not help much unless you have what is vital. That is the divine argument. God’s argument is vitality. If you have not that you have no argument at all. This is the witness, that God has brought in vitality; the testimony on the part of God to Christ is that He has given to us eternal life. If a man denies this he is making God a liar. A man might deny a pamphlet, or a man’s preaching, but to deny the power of God in the Lord’s people is making God a liar.
Rem That is what you get, in 1 John 5.
JT Yes, that is God’s testimony, and if a man refuses that he makes God a liar, and that is the moral end of him; he is exposed.
JP “As Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith”. But it says, “They shall proceed no further for their folly shall be manifest unto all men”. 2 Timothy 3: 8,9.
JT That is it; “Their folly shall be manifest”. That is their end morally: nobody listens to them after that, so the great thing is vitality, and that was always the divine argument. God brought in testimony to Christ in the church: the church was set up in vitality. That is the divine argument, the divine proof that God has intervened for blessing.
JP Still I think there is abundant encouragement even at the present moment. I would like to say this: I think there will be encouragement to preach until the Lord comes. I believe there will be, and in the measure in which, in our souls, we are brought into the light and good of the things being brought before us, apart from all pretension on our part, there will be encouragement. Do you not think so?
JT I think the preaching will go on to the end. I am sure it will, and the building will go on to the end also. I have felt for a good while that the breakdown which has come in in the assembly must of necessity alter things. It would alter things for any person who is exercised about things before God, and he would be much affected by it. God’s intention was that what He had set up was to continue as His witness. It had been perfectly established, and it was to be perpetuated. Verse 16 of this chapter, I think, indicates how it was to be perpetuated. Everything requisite was furnished for its perpetuation down here.
JP I was struck with that word “increase”, “the increase of the body”. Ephesians 4: 16. While it was established in perfection, the perfection in which it was established does not preclude the thought of increase and perpetuation.
Ques Does verse 13, “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”, (Ephesians 4: 13) have any reference to what we get in Revelation 21: 17? The angel measures the wall of the city, according to the measure of a man?
JT I think it is that the measure is Christ; do you not think so?
JP Oh, yes.
JT I think the point here is that God’s desire is that there should be perpetuation, and it is evidently written with a view to the exclusion of systematised error. The saints were to be no longer babes. No doubt the Lord had His own personal affections for the church, but that comes out in chapter 5. Evidently in this chapter the thought is more that the divine intention as to the church was that it should be an expression of God here.
J.P. At the present time?
JT Yes, and of course it holds good that God is able to do far exceedingly above all we ask or think: indeed, I think many of us have experienced that, notwithstanding the ruin.
JP I think the more we retire and retreat from everything that has the character of pretension and assumption the more we shall prove the reality of these things.
JT If you see a distinct movement on the part of God in any given place you may rely that it is going to spread, because the movement is of the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is in the house of God, and so the movement is going to spread wherever the Holy Ghost is.
The house is the sphere of the Spirit; there is exhortation to pray “for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority”; this is because the house of God is universally beneficent.
[p. 224] At Babel, Genesis 11, God raised barriers between nations; that is to say, gave them different tongues. Now that the house of God is instituted there are to be no barriers. Every Christian is in the house whatever his nationality.
Ques Was that not indicated on the day of Pentecost when every man heard his own language?
JT The Spirit came in the character of cloven tongues of fire, and sat upon each of them, and they all spoke with tongues. In Acts 2 a list of the languages spoken is given, which comprised pretty well the then known world. They all declared, “We hear them speaking in our own tongues the great things of God”. Acts 2: 11. God brought in means of communication, and all barriers are overthrown. That is the idea of unity.
Ques In answer to what He had done in Babel?
JT I think it was an annulling of Babel in that way.
Ques The grace spoken of in this chapter — is it not available now?
JT “To each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ”. Ephesians 4: 7.
Ques That comes out in the gifts?
JT Yes, to everyone, be it brother or sister, grace has been given.
Ques What place do the sisters have?
JT The sisters are very important. To use a figure, I think they are the feet.
Rem Some one has said the brothers are the eyes and ears.
JT Yes, I think that may be so.
Rem Some sisters are as spiritual as brothers.
JT More so: Mary was the most spiritual of all the disciples.
JP I think anyone can see that in the scene at the close of the supper, when Mary anointed the [p. 225] Lord. Really not one of the apostles was up to that — not one.
Rem They found fault with her for doing it.
JP She was encouraged by Jesus, however, and did it all the same.
Ques We cannot do without the sisters then?
JT No. All are required: to everyone is given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ: all are there for some purpose in the mechanism of the body. The Lord set up the assembly here a perfect mechanism: everyone had received grace, and each one was to fill a place.
Rem Intelligence as to the state is often found in the sisters.
JT Pretty much. You will find what is right is ratified by the sisters.
That is the way the truth comes out. When you get the saints together, a company of spiritual persons, men and women, and any question comes up, if it is right it is ratified: every spiritual person says, It is right; it is true.
Rem I think you were saying the other day that the brothers seize the mind of God, and the sisters support it.
JT I think so. The intelligence was to be in the men, and the state in the women. You get pretty much the idea, I think, in the song of Moses, which conveys an intelligent expression of the situation; but Miriam’s song gives an idea as to the state of the people. This is only one’s own judgment, and in the most general way; it would be a mistake to attempt to apply it in detail.
Ques Would you say that Miriam’s singing has reference to the Person — to Jehovah?
JT I think it indicated the state of the company. Just as in the case of Mary Magdalene in John 20; while her personal affection is seen there in especial brightness, yet she represents the state of the whole [p. 226] company of disciples. They all loved Christ: Peter loved the Lord.
J P. It is wonderful that one should have the privilege of expressing it.
Ques Why was Miriam struck with leprosy when she spoke against Moses? Was that an indication of the state?
JT The Lord said to them, “Wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” Numbers 12: 8. Their speaking against Moses indicated the spirit of rebellion, and you might say they stood for the whole company. Miriam and her brother Aaron spoke against Moses, and the Lord could not permit that. They found fault with him because he had married an Ethiopian woman — that is, outside Israel. Really, that is a type of Judaism finding fault with Christ for going after the Gentiles. Christ is not going to be restricted by Israel, and so goes outside His own race to the Gentiles.
Rem I like that remark you made about Christ not being bound to Israel for a bride. It is a good thing for us.
JT We should not have come in at all if Miriam and Aaron had had their way.
Ques Is it not necessary for the sisters to be intelligent?
JT If they love the Lord they will be intelligent. You see that in Mary of Bethany. She sat at the Lord’s feet, and she became intelligent. I have only spoken as I have in a general way: it seems to me to be right. The women stand pretty much for the silent state; but it is state upon which everything really depends, for if you have not a good state you have nothing.
Ques Coming back to the passage we have before us, what is meant by verse 7: “But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ”? Ephesians 4: [p. 227] 7.
JT I should take that to mean that everyone has received something from Christ and with a view to his filling some place.
JP And that is as true now as at any time?
JT One would desire, as it were to be in sympathy with God. God would like to move, and have things according to Himself, and I think what we should all be concerned about is yielding ourselves to God at this time. He wishes to use every one of us, and we get grace accordingly.
JP “According to the power which works in us”.
RSS Every one has a gift from God and it is according to the measure of the gift of the Christ. Does that mean that Christ gives largely, according to Himself?
JT I think so; the giving is according to Christ: indicating the kind of giving. It seems to me it means whatever your grace is, it is according to the Lord’s measure, and in that way it is perfect.
Rem I think you said that love is a gift.
JT Love? Well, I do not know exactly. Love is nature. Love is the source of giving — do you not think so?
Rem Yes, but I was thinking of the exhortation to covet the best gifts, and then love is mentioned as the greatest.
JT It is shown to be the more excellent way.
RSS Love is that in which the gift would be exercised.
JT Exactly: in love you exercise the gift.
Ques That would be the measure of it, would you say?
JT To each one of us is given some distinctive grace, but as to love, that is our nature derived from God. If you have not love you are nothing — simply nothing. You are of no account at all.
JP I think, Mr. S., your last remark was very [p. 228] good. You said love is that in which your gift is exercised. In the beginning of this chapter we get, “Bearing with one another in love”. Ephesians 4: 2.
RSS And it is in lowliness and meekness. You were saying a little while ago that that is the place in which we are to abide.
Rem I wish you would say a word about grace, because we have to go on with all kinds of people, some congenial, some not: and we see so much in the Scriptures in regard to grace. We need grace continually in connection with each other in our walk here.
JT Well, I think the idea of grace is that it belongs to royalty. I doubt whether anybody can be gracious unless he is morally royal.
RSS The expression “Your gracious majesty” suggests that.
JT Yes, and I think the thought is right. I was thinking of David. When the Lord had established him king over all Israel, then he would act like a king; he showed kindness to Mephibosheth. I think that is the thought — acting like a king.
JP His true royalty comes out in that inquiry, “Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him?” 2 Samuel 9: 1. That is royal grace, is it not?
Rem Now please bring it down to us.
JT It takes a truly great man to be gracious.
RSS But there is an immense difference between grace and condescension.
Ques What do you mean by a great man?
JT A truly great man can become small because he is in the dignity of what he is with God, and in the knowledge and liberty of that he can become anything down here. He is great enough to become smaller than anybody, “Less than the least of all saints”. Ephesians 3: 8.
JP You see it in the blessed Lord: “For ye [p. 229] know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich”. 2 Corinthians 8: 9.
Rem And He also washed the disciples’ feet.
JT Yes, and this was to be continued among the saints.
As to our brother’s question, as to believers being gracious toward one another: in the chapter we have before us the apostle is referring to something distinctive being given to each and not to conduct; but grace is what should mark us in our relations towards one another. I think love is to be the motive power of all our conduct towards each other. Love is really the ground-work of everything; the one thing you can fall back upon the one thing that never fails.
Ques He speaks in verse 15 of “holding the truth in love”. What do you think he means by that?
JT That is what I thought of: love is the motive-spring of all. You hold the truth in love, riot in your intellect.
JP In Ephesians 1 we get, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”. Ephesians 1: 4. That is really the secret of our ability to maintain family manners. You bear with one another in love; you hold the truth in love and the body edifies itself in love.
JT The Lord intended to establish that which would be invulnerable. If Christians are together in love Satan has no inlet; there is no possibility of an inlet for him.
JP So love is “the bond of perfectness” in Colossians 3: 14.
JT Yes, love is that, perhaps, of which we know the least. It is my impression that most do not know much about the land, which is the sphere of the love.
Ques Is that what the gates of hell shall not prevail [p. 230] against?
JT The living stones put together The intention was that they should be invulnerable — no point of inlet. There was to be no breach on that structure, on that fortress. The practical working of it is in this way: If someone comes to you and tells you something about a certain brother, perhaps something bad, love will stand by you there. That is an attack of the devil to get in, and now the only resource is love, hence it is that love never fails — never, and so that is the thing to cultivate.
Ques What is the point of verse 27 of this chapter: “Neither give place to the devil”?
JT That is in connection with anger; it is your own faults there, but the principle holds good. The point of the enemy is to get inside. He did eventually succeed in this; he set his throne within, and hence captured the whole thing.
Rem I have noticed when man builds, as we get it in the tower of Babel, he uses slime for mortar, but when you come to the living stones being built together to a holy temple, they grow together, and I take it they are cemented together in love.
JT Yes, and I think in the case of the tower of Babel, the material used for building and the cement were distinct things. It is not so in God’s building the cement is inherent in the stones.
Ques And would you say that is love?
JT Yes. It is the one thing that never fails. If we stand by love, love will stand by us.
JR Indeed it will.
Rem Scripture says without it we are but sounding brass.
JT We are nothing at all.
JP If we were larger spiritually, we would prove what our brother has said: we would prove the invulnerability of divine love.
JT Now when the apostle speaks of everyone having received grace according to the measure of [p. 231] the gift of the Christ, he proceeds to put the giving on its own proper basis: it is from an ascended Christ; then he goes on to specify the gifts.
JP That is, what he proceeds to specify is distinctive gifts; but when it comes to a question of grace, “To every one of us is given grace”. Ephesians 4: 7. Is that what you mean?
JT Yes, he specifies gifts afterwards: “He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”. Ephesians 4: 11.
Rem That is a good deal like 1 Corinthians 12. He speaks of the body there, and all the members.
JT Here it is that everyone has received grace; there that each member has some office to perform; whether it be conspicuous or not, each member is necessary to the body. In 1 Corinthians 12, when he speaks of gifts he speaks of them as in the church, not in the body.
WHF The distinctive gifts were given in connection with the victory of Christ.
JT I think it is a great thing to see, that having led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto men.
Rem They were given in regard to the church.
JT In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle takes up the figure of the human body; he speaks of that, and then makes application to the Corinthians. They were “the body of Christ, and members in particular”, (1 Corinthians 12: 27) and you cannot exclude any from that; but, as a company of Christians, there were gifts there. God had set the gifts in the assembly; not in the body, but in the assembly.
Rem I have noticed that the evangelist is not mentioned among the gifts in 1 Corinthians.
JT I should not expect it there, because Corinth was not the church in bloom. It was only the seed that had been planted there, the foundation only was there.
Ques You would expect it from Ephesus?
[p. 232] Rem I thought the evangelist planted the seed.
JT Paul had planted the seed at Corinth, but there was very little there which the evangelist, could go out from.
RSS The unity and the activity of the blessing were lacking. The Spirit was there, but the fruit of the Spirit was not to be seen.
JT There was nothing there for an evangelist to go out from. There was division there: you would not expect evangelists there. That is pretty much the state of things at the present time. You would expect evangelists from Ephesus because there was love there. In his epistle to the Ephesians, the apostle dwells upon love (the nature of God) and that was in the saints at Ephesus. I can understand evangelisation from Ephesus because at Ephesus there was increase, the increase of God, and that is love. It is not a number of people, the increase of God is love.
JP I noticed in speaking of Corinth, you said the foundation was there, but the blessing and unity were not there. Now in Ephesus the unity and blessing are there, so it is summer-time, everything is in bloom, and you get evangelisation from Ephesus.
JT That is the idea. I think the labourer awaits the precious fruits of the earth. The man who sews the seed sows in hope; waits for the precious fruits of the earth, and that comes to pass in Ephesus. The possession of the Spirit, either in an individual or collective way, is of course blessing, but blessing is more properly the effect of the Spirit — life. Life is evidenced in love (1 John 3: 14).
JP It is most interesting and encouraging that, while there is not much outwardly here now, it is winter-time, and you cannot look for bloom and fruit in the winter-time; still the Holy Ghost is here, and what I have noticed has been greatly [p. 233] encouraging and intensely interesting to me. You take a little company of believers anywhere, if they are going on together as they should, according to God, you will generally find, it may be in little measure, but I think you will find there is a measure of fruit there. People, one and another, are affected, and then they are converted, and I think when they are converted under those conditions they are generally properly converted.
JT Yes, you see the happy faces they wear. I often think of the present popular system of evangelisation. It is the most heartless thing to leave people just where you find them; still it professes to be love. They find a poor man fallen among thieves and profess to pour in the oil and wine, and then they leave him exposed to the robbers. There is not a bit of heart in it. Do you think an evangelist from Ephesus would act like that? He had a home into which to bring them.
JP The Samaritan did not do that in Luke 10. He sat him on his own beast, took him to an inn, and arranged with the inn-keeper for the man’s comfort and care until he should come again.
Ques You could not look for much now though, could you?
JT No, you do not get much unless you get pillars: men of spiritual strength raised up. As was said in a former reading, it is a great thing to get people in touch with spiritual men: men of strength and stability. Of course you would always endeavour to direct men to Christ personally, and connect them with Him in the faith of their souls.
JP I believe there is every encouragement to go on according to God. I think what you will find is that we shall be supported.
JT There is no change in God: He is still “able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us”. Ephesians 3: 20.
JP [p. 234] it would be a poor thing for us to come together to take up these precious Scriptures, if these things were not to be made good in our souls.
JT Yes, there would be poor comfort in that, but the comfort is you have Christ and the saints, and the thing is to go to work now in the light of what is in these Scriptures.
JP I feel it is an immense privilege to be here for Christ at the present time.
Ques Would you say it will be the winter-time of the assembly until the Lord comes?
JT We cannot look for anything public now; no blooming now. We have to wait for the time when Israel will blossom and fill the face of the earth with fruit. But I think everything will emanate morally from the church, as that in which Christ is to shine out.
Ques In a sense we wait for His call, “Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away: for lo, the winter is past”, etc. Song of Songs 2: 10,11. Is that it?
JT That has reference to Israel. The winter-time for Israel is probably the time when they go through their sorrows and tribulations, but then the time of singing is coming. “The voice of the turtle is heard in our land”. Song of Songs 2: 12. That refers to the coming day. “Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away”, He says; that will be the Lord’s word to Israel in the future.
JP Do you not think the Lord would distinctly turn us to Himself at this time, and away from the thought of publicity? I have had the idea that the Lord is going to have a very bright finish, but in saying that, I do not mean that the Lord is going to do some great outward thing to attract the attention of people publicly, but like what you see in the end of the Old Testament. Really Jehovah was not defeated He had a bright finish. If you take the little company in Malachi, and then connect it with [p. 235] the opening of Luke there is the little company there. It was really a bright finish — was it not? I believe the Lord will have a bright finish, but we must give up this idea of publicity, give up the idea of being something in the midst of a corrupted and nearly apostate Christendom.
Ques “He came unto his own, and his own received him not”. John 1: 11. I suppose that is equally true at the present time, is it not?
JT If the Lord came to Christendom today He would not be received; that I am sure of.
Rem I suppose what we get in the Lord’s message to Philadelphia would be for us now.
JT The great thought from Thyatira onwards for the Lord’s people was the coming of the Lord. “What ye have hold fast till I shall come”. Revelation 2: 25.
In speaking of Sardis He does not say He holds the seven stars: He is not supporting what is public at all. He simply says He has the seven stars. Philadelphia presents what the faithful are to Christ in the midst of the general unfaithfulness. Just as Mr. P. said regarding the remnant in Malachi, “They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels”. Malachi 3: 17.
JP Would you say a word about what comes out in chapter 6: I mean the conflict? Is it not the assembly standing here for the testimony of God that involves the conflict?
JT I think so. I think the house of God involves the breaking-up of the world-system.
JP Yes, I have been helped during these meetings by what has been said of baptism. Baptism really involves the destruction of the whole world-system.
Now, would you say a word in regard to the conflict in chapter 6?
JT I take it to be in connection with the dwelling-place of God down here. God was pleased [p. 236] to come down and dwell amongst a little company of people, who disclaimed any relation to the world; who refused and abandoned it; and indeed it was Christ who set it up, so you would expect Satan to do his utmost to break up and destroy that. I think in Ephesus the company formed there were brought into the full intelligence of God’s mind in regard to the universe, in regard to His counsels; because the apostle says he shunned not to declare unto them the whole counsel of God. I think in Ephesus you would expect that every testimony of God would find a place in the affections of the saints; that every single thought of God would have a place in their affections; they would be in sympathy with God, because they loved Him. If you love God you are in sympathy with Him, and interested in every one of His.
JP So, having declared the whole counsel of God unto them, they were in the light of that; thus you get another characteristic expression in Ephesians, “All things”.
JT Yes, quite so.
JP “All things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth”. Ephesians 1: 10. It is a wonderful thing that the saints will reign with Christ over the universe, and I suppose the testimony of God maintained in the assembly here, really embraces God’s rights, which of course are made good in Christ, and will be maintained in Christ. It involves a testimony of that, and so, as you said, it brings out the utmost opposition of the enemy.
JT Satan has a position in the heavenlies, and from thence he rules and controls the world-system. The testimony of the church involves his being cast out of the heavenlies, and the complete destruction of the system which he has established. From this point of view the Epistle to the Ephesians answers to Jerusalem: it sets forth the full heavenly position [p. 237] and office of the church. All light and rule issue from Christ through the church. Conflict is in this connection.
Rem They never got the enemy out of Jerusalem until David’s day.
JT If the Ephesian saints stood by all the rights of Christ, and the testimony of God, you may depend Satan would do all in his power to break them up. The apostle says, “Our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies”. Ephesians 6: 12.
JP Where is the source of all satanic power now? Is it not in the heavenlies? Do you not think that Satan has some apprehension of the fact that the assembly is going to occupy the place that he now occupies?
JT That is what involves the conflict very largely; he knows perfectly well what is in the mind of God in regard to the assembly.
Ques Would you say the church stands in witness and testimony of that?
JT That is the testimony of the church: witness to the rights of Christ, and not only that, but its place is in the heavenlies, and its place being there means the overthrow of Satan.
Ques What is your thought of the heavenlies?
JT Light, government, the source of good and all that.
JP So in Revelation 12: 10, when Satan is cast out, immediately you get that wonderful outburst, “Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ”.
Rem You cannot dispossess the enemy now.
JT You are not dispossessing the enemy now:
[p. 238] the conflict lies in your standing for the truth; for the rights of Christ.
JP It is after you put on the panoply of God that you stand.
JT We are now in the scene of the testimony: you have got to the centre of it, so to say, and what you have to do is to stand. You are in the struggle: hold your ground. That is the point.
JP That is what it states: “That ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. Ephesians 6: 13.
JT The conflict is in the land, you know. You are in the land, so to say.
Ques What does he mean by “having done all”?
JP Having overcome, That is the “all”.
Rem As soon as the Lord was anointed He came into conflict; and it was the same with David.
Ques Will you speak a little of the church taking the place Satan now occupies? I was thinking of the scripture, “Ye have reigned as kings without us”. 1 Corinthians 4: 8.
JT Instead of suffering the Corinthians were reigning. It is the one who suffers that will reign with Him.
Rem After you put on the whole armour of God, you take the sword of the Spirit — the word of God.
JT The word of God; it is that which you hold in your soul in love. I take it to be the expression of the mind of God held in love: not simply in the mind, but in love.
Ques What is your thought in regard to the “beasts” and the “lion”?
JT The beasts were at Ephesus, and the lion in Rome. Paul says, “The Lord stood with me, and I was delivered out of the lion’s mouth”. 2 Timothy 4: 17. I think it was the supreme antagonistic power against God, supported by the devil; that is what Nero was. The lion is the king of animals in strength. Beasts are men energised by Satan.
[p. 239] Ques Why do you think the enemy is so active at the present time?
JT Because there is something of Christ here: that is what he is after. People may talk about men, teachers, etc., the stir is all about Christ; it is all a question of Christ.
Rem It is very important to see that.
JT That is the whole point..
Ques Is it not a mercy of God that the church can exist down here? If the enemy had full sway he would sweep it away. It is a mercy that the enemy can do nothing beyond what he is permitted.
JT In regard to the Gentile powers, the enemy cannot do much with them, but when God calls them to account He will do a great deal with them. God is still using the Gentile powers, but in the day coming He will have finished with them: He gives them up to the devil. The devil gives all his power to the beast, and the beast makes war against the saints.
Ques What form did the beasts at Ephesus take, religious or irreligious?
JT I do not know. I suppose they were peculiarly fitted to withstand the testimony, whatever form they took. The apostle mentions some people: Alexander, the coppersmith, for instance. He says of him, He “did me much evil ... he hath greatly withstood our words”. 2 Timothy 4: 14.
Ques You would say then if a man has really put on all the panoply of God, Satan will not be able to touch him?
JT No, God has provided us with an impenetrable armour.
Rem Someone just said Satan can do nothing more than God allows.
JT I think if we have all the armour on, and are in the front ranks we are not exposed. It is in [p. 240] the rear that danger lies. The front is the safest place. I have found it so.
Ques It is best to get as far front as you can, do you not think so?
JP Oh, yes it is always those behind that are exposed. It was the two and one-half tribes who first came under the power of the enemy. Gilead taken: that meant the two and one-half tribes.
WHF So it is really the safest place to be — in the front.
Rem It is important to see that what arouses Satan is Christ. I think sometimes we think it is ourselves.
JT He does not care much for us: it is a question of Christ. If Christ is seen in anyone, it is then they come into conflict.
Ques It is a question of His body at the present time - is it not?
JT In a way.
Ques You said the conflict was in connection with the house?
JT I think it is. That comes out in Ephesians. For the reason that in the house you find every testimony of God: that is bound to bring the house into conflict. It is inevitable.
Rem So the more you are set to be in the light of what is in the house, the more you will be brought into conflict.
Ques Do you draw a distinction between the “grievous wolves” and the “beasts”? The grievous wolves scattered the flock, and then men arose teaching perverted things, to draw disciples after themselves.
JT That gives pretty much the history of things from Ephesus downwards. I think, however, the beasts were those with whom the apostle had to fight those who were wholly antagonistic to the [p. 241] testimony. I should take them to be the direct agents of the devil to oppose the testimony.
Ques Every one set for the purpose of God comes into conflict then?
JT He does, and it is then the need of the armour comes in. The armour really refers to state: righteousness, truth, etc.
Rem In our minds it has been connected with what is external.
JP Taking account of terms used, it must be a question of state. “Having your loins girt about with truth”, etc. Ephesians 6: 14.
JT The moral conditions the Lord finds on His return are exactly opposed to the different parts of the armour, as we get them in 2 Thessalonians.
J P. The armour spoken of here corresponds to the armour worn by the Lord when He comes out to destroy the world-system. You get it in Isaiah 59.
JT The judgment executed by the Lord in power corresponds with the testimony now rendered by the church. He will destroy the world-system, and this will mean universal salvation.
JP The armour really means the characteristics of Christ produced in the saints now by the Spirit: what is produced in us now will characterise Christ when He comes publicly to overthrow the whole system of the world.
Ques In the power of that saints overcome the world now, is that it? Would that make a place of salvation for the saints at the present moment, I mean by standing against all adverse power?
JP I think if you find some standing there is a rallying-point.
JT In Isaiah 59 it says, “When the enemy shall come in like a flood the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him”, Isaiah 59: 19. That is a rallying-point, and it is a very great mercy, when the Spirit of the Lord does that.
[p. 242] Ques That would mean a standard for the moment, in connection with a few who have the armour on?
JT The standard would be pulled down quickly unless supported by men who have the armour on. When the Spirit raises a standard He supports it, and it becomes a rallying point for the saints. The thing is to perceive what the standard is: it requires eyesight to see where the standard is.
Rem You have spoken largely of the world-system, and of God’s system. Will you please give a word of distinction?
JT God’s system is pervaded by love to begin with. It is built up wholly in love, and the world-system is built up in hatred. That is pretty much what marks them both, and the question is, which do you prefer? The one is salvation the other destruction.
JP God’s system is founded on righteousness, and built up in love; the world-system is founded on lawlessness and built up in hatred.
Rem You see that in Cain and Abel.
JT The principle of it is there.