WORTHING - READING (1)
WORTHING — READING (1)
JT I have the word ‘elevation’ in mind, considering the first chapter of Ephesians this morning, because of the spiritual elevation that is found there, and then this afternoon the part of Corinthians which treats of the service of God too, but what relates to what is physical in the sense of elevation, because there is physical elevation too, which we hope will come about presently.
It need not be remarked that it is not intended to pursue this chapter in Ephesians in detail. It is one of the fullest and most blessed chapters in the Bible; the thought is just to touch on it from the standpoint of spiritual elevation. Later we hope to look at Corinthians in which the apostle speaks of being caught up to the third heaven, which would be physical elevation. Now it is a question of what is moral and spiritual, so that we might be lifted out of the mere naturalness of the scene around us into what is of God, and spiritual, in the sense of elevation. We all know how the heavens are in mind, and so it says here: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies”. It is a word peculiar, I believe, to Ephesians — “heavenlies” — and it refers to heavenly-mindedness and heavenliness in the sense of spiritual elevation.
FB You mean that we should understand somewhat of this spiritual elevation now?
JT Just so; that is the idea. We shall have the physical presently, which Paul speaks of as to himself, when he was caught up a good many years before. We cannot assume how often that happened, apparently it was only once. But Thessalonians treats of an elevation which will be literal. “For the Lord himself ... shall descend from heaven” and then we shall be changed and caught up so as to be with Him in the heavenlies.
PL “And he built his sanctuary like the heights”.
JT “Like the earth which he hath founded for ever”. Quite so. God has great thoughts, of course, in this sense, both moral and spiritual, and then physical, because all these things enter into the coming thoughts of God, and into His present thoughts too. The present thoughts are in mind in this reading, because the epistle to the Ephesians treats of the blessings that belong to us, as given to us in Christ.
Ques Would you say that the spirit of the apostle is moved in worship to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as he thinks of the elevation in the heavenlies in Christ?
JT I would think so, I suppose, no one anywhere in the universe, except divine Persons, could speak as he does. He could speak as having been given the ministry of the assembly, and all that enters into it.
Rem An understanding of this is necessary for the service of God.
JT That is what is in mind. The service of God really begins with the Lord’s supper as in Corinthians.
RSW Would the upper room be in keeping with that?
JT Very much so. Luke refers to it in connection with the Supper, and also brings it in in Acts l, and he tells us who were there. The apostles were there, of course, and there were several women too.
Ques Is the suggestion of elevation also seen in Paul’s visit to Ephesus in Acts 19, where he is stated to have passed through the “upper districts”?
JT Very good. That has often been referred to and is quite in keeping with what we are saying.
It says the “upper districts”. Whatever they may have meant literally, the word “upper” gives character to them in a spiritual sense. He had to do with lower things, too, humbling things. He tells us what he had gone through in the sense of suffering. Of course, we shall come to that presently, but it is well to have it in mind that the apostle gives an account of the sufferings which he endured. And so he comes to visions and revelations in 2 Corinthians 12, but here it is moral and spiritual elevation, as I was saying. It is in order to take the saints out of the level of this world and all that is in it, so that we might live in heavenly places, because that is our proper elevation — our proper living place.
AJG Is the reason for this elevation that the blessing which Ephesians speaks of must be according to God Himself?
JT Quite so. It is largely a question of God, too, in the epistle, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. It is a full title as to God.
AH In Acts 19, the first question Paul raises after arriving at Ephesus through the upper districts is as to the receiving of the Spirit. Has that an important place in what is in your mind?
JT Quite so. It is a question of the Spirit, as if the full truth of Ephesians depends on the Spirit, and what has come to light of late, too, making it very effective.
FB Have you in mind that this thought of elevation should be constantly in our minds throughout the week?
JT I think so. If we are in business, we are apt to be thinking of our business and what importance we have in it and what it is, and so forth, whereas the elevation we are dealing with now would lift us above all that. Then when we come to it, if the Lord is pleased to take us to Himself, or through death, we have to think of literal elevation,
[p. 162] that we are going to be with the Lord. It says, “To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better” — that is elevation, surely.
AM As to the moral side, do you think the word in verse 1 as to the “Saints and faithful in Christ Jesus” enters into that side of things? Is there certain faithfulness that the apostle discerns in the locality?
JT Quite so. Undoubtedly the work of God went on well at Ephesus. We are told of it in Revelation, of course, but then there has been declension from the level on which Paul had placed it. Paul had placed christianity at its full thought — the divine thought — in the sense of elevation. Paul had specially placed it there, and he was faithful in doing so, and then evidently the saints were faithful at first, but later, alas, according to the book of Revelation, they had declined — they had left their first love.
Ques What is the character of these spiritual blessings with which we are blessed, in view of this?
JT It would be hard to cover them all, but perhaps as we proceed with the chapter (that is the reason why I read the whole chapter) we might touch the blessings we are brought into; not ordinary earthly blessings as there will be in the millennial day, but heavenly blessings. It is characteristic of the present time — the recovery as we properly speak of it — that the epistle to the Ephesians is the great top-stone of the truth to which we have been recovered.
Rem You said this is what we enjoy together, at the Lord’s supper, did you not?
JT Yes. What we should enjoy together. Of course the subject of the Lord’s supper is in Corinthians, not in Ephesians, and one great point of Corinthians is headship, and we touch it here in the last verse or two of this chapter. It says, “in which [p. 163] he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly” — notice this “to the assembly” as if the assembly has part in the headship — “to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all” (verses 20 - 23).
Ques So that whilst the Supper takes place in the wilderness, the light of what is heavenly is to bring about elevation in the service?
JT Quite so. We have in mind elevation in the service, and that we are gradually coming to the idea of sonship. We partake of the Lord’s supper at the beginning and then reach the thought of sonship in relation to the Father; the Holy Spirit Himself comes into it, for He is the Spirit of adoption, which is the Spirit of sonship.
PAR Would the expression “in Christ” give the full measure of the elevation you are speaking of?
JT No, I do not think so. Of course “in Christ” is a great measure, but at the same time it is not so much the point of elevation as the fact that it is in Him — in Christ, and Christ may be regarded as down here in the Spirit, only God has raised Him up and set Him at His right hand. He is in the heavenlies in that sense, but we know that He has come down here since that time, the Lord has actually been down here on earth since He went to heaven. He has a way of coming down. The epistle to the Corinthians will instruct us as to it.
WW Does the moral elevation touch on the great thought of being holy and blameless before Him in [p. 164] love?
JT Yes, but I did not want to go away from the point just raised, as to the Lord Himself actually having been down here. He may be regarded as down here, too, in a certain sense, because in Matthew He is not said to have gone into heaven at all; it is the assembly gospel, so that the Lord is where He can come to us and make Himself known to us, I would not like to move away from that, because I think the brethren ought to think of it more than they do.
Ques You are alluding now to “I am coming to you” connected with the service of God?
JT Quite so. It is not coming for you, but coming to you. He will come for us, and that will bring about physical elevation, but in the meantime He is coming to us, and that is in the service of God.
Ques Paul, in writing to the Philippians, says: “The Lord is near”. Is that more in the characteristic sense that Matthew presents Him as being with the saints all the days?
JT Just so. It is a comforting thought that He is near.
Rem In John 20 it says: “The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord”, and their only record of that meeting is “We have seen the Lord”.
JT If there is one record, that is quite enough, for the Scripture cannot be broken. It is a great thing in John 20, that there is such a thing as seeing the Lord. It used to be said by certain ones that the Lord was always in the midst, but He is not, for He has gone to heaven literally, and He is at the right hand of God, angels and principalities being made subject to Him, but He comes. He is a divine Person and can come as He wishes; we must always recognise that. We cannot control Him, He comes as He wishes, and He does come, too, in the spiritual sense which we are now dealing with, but He came, at the [p. 165] beginning, literally. He was with the disciples forty days, literally, before He went up.
LHR Is His present coming to us by the Spirit?
JT Well, you might say that, and yet you cannot be too sure because the Lord is a divine Person. There are three divine Persons; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Three are presented under one name in the gospel of Matthew.
AJG It would seem as though even before the Lord died He was accustoming the disciples to His coming in and going out, because in Acts 1 it says. “Of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up”.
JT He has a right to do that; He is a divine Person. We cannot assume He is under control in any sense, but what He wishes He can do. So that the idea of the Lord coming to us is of first rate importance in order to bring out the thought of the service of God.
FB Then should there be conditions with us that would, so to speak, cause the Lord to come among us?
JT Just so. We cannot say that He should come. We must have the conditions if we assume that He comes. We assume here in this town that the Lord comes to us every Lord’s day, but are you sure about that; we have to be sure about it. The conditions may not warrant it, they may keep Him away too. So that He may withdraw, and so forth.
Rem His coming, in that way, is His own act.
JT It is presented in that way, I would say. “I will beg the Father”, the Lord says, “and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever”. Then the Lord goes on to say that He comes to us — “I am coming to you”. It is not ‘I have come’, but “I am coming to you”. It is a present action, that we regard as privilege and gives character to assembly service. It makes it heavenly.
Ques Does the verse in the Song of Songs suggest that He comes in relation to an elevated position? “The voice of my beloved! Behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills”.
JT Very good. That part of Scripture has been much used during the last forty or fifty years, and has greatly enhanced the service of God — making the Lord’s supper the beginning of it. Then we go on to the Father, and lately we have had the Spirit of adoption, so that we may enter into that sphere at that time.
JOS Does Samuel give us the proper exercise when he says: “We will not sit at table till he come hither”? Is that the spirit in which we should be together on Lord’s day morning?
JT Just so, “We will not sit at table till he come”.
GWB Is it significant that it says in Acts 20 with regard to Paul, “Having gone up, and having broken the bread”?
JT Just so. He went up, because he had come down in love. He came down in love to enfold, in his arms, the boy that had fallen. The breaking of bread evidently was deferred, and that is why it is put in that way. The apostle went up and then they broke bread and then he went away, so that it was a happy season.
Ques Would you say what the evidences are that the Lord has come into our midst? In John 20 He was actually seen.
JT I think the affections of the brethren will be moved. It is a question of movement of affection towards Him. It is a wonderful time. We meet each other first; that is the idea of the Lord’s [p. 167] supper, and we greet each other, and then in due time we are in unity in the assembly; it is the assembly time, because the Lord’s supper belongs to the assembly. Paul says, “When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper”, but it should be. Paul says it is not the truth, but it should have been that; it should be the Lord’s supper if we are going to begin the service of God. Not that we may not call prayer the service of God, but the full idea of the service of God begins with the Lord’s supper, and hence the apostle said in the chapter I am referring to in Corinthians, “It is not to eat the Lord’s supper”. He wanted to blame them and get them right about it, but there is no blame here in Ephesians 1; everything is according to God.
Ques Would you say that you get an expression, so to speak, of the stirring of the affections in 1 Samuel 16? It says, “He sent and brought him in. And he was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance”.
JT And he was David; that was his name, and the name carried a meaning. It is ‘the beloved’ really.
Rem The stirring of the affections when he comes in — every eye beholding him.
JT Quite so. David in that chapter is a type of Christ. When David came in all was aglow; his brothers were not equal to it for the moment, but he was — it was his moment. It was David’s moment. His name means ‘beloved’, and of course we have here the thought of beloved. It says in verse 6: “He has taken us into favour in the Beloved”. It is the Lord Jesus.
ALC Would you say that our affections sometimes have to be stirred before we recognise the Lord, like the two on the way to Emmaus? Their [p. 168] eyes were holden, but they knew Him in the breaking of bread.
JT And they reproved themselves afterwards — why did they not know Him? So we do well to reprove ourselves if we do not discern the great privilege that is accorded to us in the Lord coming to us.
JSE Would the question of Rebecca to the servant help us in the normality of this matter of the Lord’s coming to us? “Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?” You remarked just now that it was a question as to whether the Lord came in by the Spirit, but is not the Spirit essential to us for the discerning of the Lord when He comes in?
JT Yes, but we cannot say that the Lord must come by the Spirit.
JSE No, I am thinking of ourselves as needing the Spirit for discerning the Lord when He does come.
JT Just so. David says to Abigail, “Blessed be thy discernment”, and that is the point we are on now in Ephesians.
JSE And does not the word ‘see’ in John’s gospel often imply discernment rather than visibility?
JT Very good. I would say that fully.
WC In John 21 it was the disciple whom Jesus loved that said, “It is the Lord”. Is it love that discerns Him?
JT Very good. John has that peculiar designation — “that disciple therefore whom Jesus loved”. If we read Revelation we will read about John. But we are now dealing with Ephesians where the full divine thought of christianity is set out; and it is in the assembly that the Lord comes, and He serves in the assembly. The assembly is the great vessel of His service, and this epistle indicates what the Ephesian assembly was. It was in accord with the [p. 169] mind of God, but what is said about it in Revelation is that it had fallen. There was departure, for it had fallen from its first love, but still there was something there that the Lord respected and spoke to. The first address of the Lord is to Ephesus, showing that it had the greatest place, really, in the assembly; greater than Jerusalem. It does not say that the Lord wrote to Jerusalem; it was to Ephesus He wrote first.
AJG Would the fact that the Lord says to Ephesus, “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”, show that He felt the giving up of the elevation?
JT Just so; that is what the Lord felt — “I have against thee”. We do not want to have the Lord against us, because He is stronger than we. If He be against us, He will let us know it; He will make us feel it.
Ques Would the word ‘first’ there be first in quality, and not necessarily in time — “thy first love”?
JT That is right. It is the freshness of the love. It may wane and grow cool, or cold, but first love, I am sure, is fresh love, and the Lord values it.
Ques Is it important here that the truth stands in relation to the purposes and counsels of God, so that if there is recovery it is to what is unchanged in itself?
JT Quite so. So that the Spirit of God being here, there is enough to bring about heavenly conditions and the recovery, too, I believe, implies that the heavenly conditions have been recovered. That is what has happened during the past hundred or hundred and twenty years. There has been a real recovery of the assembly and the truth as to it. So we have these meetings constantly, and God is helping us through them. The first day of the week and all that enters into it has acquired great increase [p. 170] of power because of the service that God has rendered in the ministry that has come to us as to it during the last fifty years.
GCS Would the blood being brought in here assure to us all these privileges and blessings on the basis of redemption?
JT The blood, of course, is only one thing. There is more than that needed, for the Spirit is needed as well as the blood. Blood may bring people into the millennium, but the Spirit will bring them to heaven. That is what He is doing now; He is bringing us to heavenly places.
GCS In Colossians the blood is left out to concentrate on the greatness of the person of Christ, but here the foundation of all these blessings for us is in the redemptive work of Christ.
JT The work of Christ, quite so. But then, as I said, it is of immense importance to make room for the Spirit. Of course the Spirit will have part in the millennial day, too, but not in the same sense as it is now. The Spirit is here Himself fully. He has come down — been sent down — from heaven.
AJG It says here that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance. That is more than light, is it not? It is the positive enjoyment already in the Spirit.
JT Just so. Of course the earnest is not quite the whole thing, but still the Spirit is great enough to bring about the thing in principle.
Rem Would you say a word as to why the Holy Spirit is called “the Holy Spirit of promise” here. The chapter deals with purpose, generally.
JT Well, it is to enhance the thought of the Spirit, which has been done and is being done by Himself at the present time. He is the Holy Spirit of promise — not simply the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit, but the Holy Spirit of promise, the idea of promise bringing in love. There is something peculiar [p. 171] in promise — promise is a peculiar word, and it refers to something given, so that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of promise. He was anticipated as given, but now He is given. So you rightly ask people, Have you got the Spirit? Perhaps they would say, No; well then, the thing is you should ask, for the Spirit of God is a gift. The greatest of all gifts is the Spirit of God. Eternal life is the next greatest gift, but the Spirit of God must be the greatest of all gifts, because He is God Himself.
WC So when Achsah asked her father for a blessing, he gave her the upper and the nether springs.
JT Quite so. The upper and nether springs are the full thought, figuratively, in that particular Old Testament scripture. So it is here, the Holy Spirit of promise, but we have the Holy Spirit of God also.
AH Are you thinking of chapter 4 verse 30? “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God”.
JT Yes, that is what I thought. I knew the passage was here, because it is the full thought, and it is a question of gift. It is a wonderful thing that we have such a gift as that; it is God Himself, really. But we have to make distinctions in our minds as to how the gift is to be thought of.
Ques In the end of John 3, the Lord Jesus says: “God gives not the Spirit by measure”. Earlier in the chapter He speaks of the heavenly things: “If I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?” Is the giving of the Spirit without measure in view of heavenly things?
JT “God gives not the Spirit by measure”. He gives It as He has given It to the assembly. The whole idea of the Spirit is in the assembly. In the millennium, it will be different; there will be measure attached to it. Things will not be so great. The fact of the matter is, I believe, that the idea of Israel will have to cease in time — it may be a thousand years, but [p. 172] it will have to cease. The full thought is here now, in what we are dealing with. The Spirit is not given by measure.
HFN Would you say a word on what follows: “The spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him”. Would that maintain us at the full height of elevation of which you have been speaking?
JT Just so, but what have you got in your mind, please, fully?
HFN In relation to the thought of elevation, how the Spirit comes in first as wisdom, or resource, and then the idea of revelation which is the thought of unveiling. Would not that be the power to enter into this great elevation which you so preciously brought before us?
JT I would say that, surely. “The full knowledge of him” and then again, “being enlightened in the eyes of your heart” — showing that it is a place of affection in our hearts — “so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come”. That is a wonderful statement as to the glory of Christ.
Rem That makes the position in which the assembly is seen at the end of the chapter all the more remarkable.
JT Just so. The assembly is greatly stressed, as I am just about to read: “And gave him to be head over all things to the assembly”. It is a remarkable thing; not only that He could be head over all things, but it is “to the assembly”. The assembly has part, clearly, in the headship. It is a remarkable thing — one of the most remarkable things we can get on this point. So it goes on to say, “Which is his body”. The assembly is the great vessel — “which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. That is the full thought of God, it refers to Christ and the assembly.
FB Have you in mind that it is possible in our measure to reach that on a Lord’s day morning?
JT I think so. It is a question of the place we give the Spirit, and what cannot be available to us if we give full place to the Spirit? So God has helped us in the way the Spirit has been brought forward by Himself. The Spirit has done it Himself, and it is to enter into the service of God and make it complete and full for God at the present time. Then in the eternal state, of course, it will be there too. It will be there in perfection, and that, of course, will enter into what we shall have this afternoon, because in 2 Corinthians 12 Paul speaks of being “caught up”. He says: “I will come to visions and revelations”. It is a time of revelations.
AH In saying ‘the place we give to the Spirit on Lord’s day morning’, have you in mind more than carrying the thought in our minds, but perhaps addressing Him personally on that occasion?
JT Quite so. People refuse the thought of addressing the Spirit, but it is quite wrong to refuse it, because He is a divine Person; why should we not address Him? It is due to Him, and it is due to us too, to the assembly that it should be properly understood in that way.
Rem You get the thought of elevation in Colossians 3, “If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God, have [p. 174] your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth”.
JT Just so. It is not simply the things that are of heaven, but “the things that are above”. It would give stress to the idea of elevation, and it belongs to Colossians, but Ephesians is the proper sphere of it.
FVW Would one of the greatest things in connection with the gift of the Holy Spirit be the insight into affections between divine Persons Themselves.
JT I would say that — the insight into it. So in John 3 we have: “Except any one be born anew he cannot see”. That is, new birth is necessary to see what is going on in the divine realm. But then he has got to be born of water and of Spirit as well. That is to say, redemption is needed as well as new birth. New birth is one thing, but redemption is another.
JSE Is it not significant that in this epistle which deals with matters at such a great altitude, the Spirit of God is referred to at least three times in a way that He is not referred to anywhere else? “The Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession” in chapter 1. Then the expression that has been referred to in chapter 4: “The Holy Spirit of God”, then in chapter 5 as he comes forward to the mystery of Christ and the assembly, is it not the only time in Paul’s ministry where he exhorts the saints to be filled with the Spirit? Are not those references suggested to us as the necessity of the Spirit on our side, if we are to come into the gain of this elevation that you have referred to?
JT Very good. The Lord Himself is spoken of as full of the Spirit, which is very remarkable. So that in this epistle we get correspondence with Christ Himself. She is presented as a suitable bride [p. 175] for Christ — that is, she is His wife, according to Revelation 19.
PL The allusion to the Spirit as the Father’s Spirit (chapter 3: 16) is also unique to this epistle, is it not?
Ques Why do you think the “eyes of your heart” are emphasised?
JT That is a moral thought. It is the seat of the affections, I would say. The full thought of affection is there in power by the Spirit.
GCS Does it help, where the Lord refers to the Spirit in Luke 24: 49? He speaks of “the promise of my Father” and then being “clothed with power from on high” — not from heaven.
JT Quite so; “... till ye be clothed with power from on high”, as if the Lord meant that they should not be here as representative of Him unless they were “clothed with power from on high”. It is the idea of elevation.
LHR Could we have a word as to being made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus?
JT It would show the dignity that belongs to us; sitting down is dignity and greatness. They are great persons. The assembly is the greatest family in the heavens and on the earth, except for divine Persons; the assembly is the greatest of all, and the members are made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ.
FWK Would Exodus 24 suggest the thought. “They saw the God of Israel ... and ate and drank”. It seems to be based upon the volume of the blood suggested in that chapter.
JT I would like you to read it. It is a great matter to have these scriptures read so that we can get the full force of them.
FWK I am referring to Exodus 24: 9, “And Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy [p. 176] of the elders of Israel went up; and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank”.
JT That is to say their dignity is implied, for they saw God, and ate and drank. Well now that raises another point, that John 1 says: “No one has seen God at any time”. So we have to make enquiry about that in time. We cannot do it now, but it is a fact that “no one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. That is to say, the declaration is by the Son. But then the seeing of God is denied according to the first chapter of John, and we have, therefore, to understand how we can see Him. It is also spoken of in Matthew 5 and now in Exodus, so that it is a question of understanding as to how we can see God. It is a marvellous thing that it can be said, and then that the Spirit is given to us, as well as that. The Spirit is given to us; it is a gift given to us.
AM How does the thought of the “greatness of his [God’s] power towards us who believe”, as referred to in this chapter, link up with the power of the Spirit?
JT The greatness of God’s power is in the Holy Spirit, but then all these things are mysterious, because the Holy Spirit is God Himself, only the mind of God is seen in the working out of things in the three Persons. We cannot explain the three Persons; why there should be three Persons — we cannot explain it, it is all mystery, but still we are in the realm of mystery, and we ourselves have the Spirit of God in us. Wonderful fact! and therefore we know all things, as John says. We can know all things in that sense. In fact John’s first epistle speaks of that, “Ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things”.
AM I was thinking too of the reference to faith — “towards us who believe”.
JT Well, we are in the faith period, but the faith period is the Spirit’s period. When we come into the sight period, it will be the millennial period. The faith period is the period of the Spirit of God, in which the Spirit of God has the greatest room and liberty amongst His people.
AJG Does not the Spirit always link His power with faith on our part?
JT I think so, that is true.
AJG If there is not faith with us the Spirit is greatly hampered, is He not?
JT Quite so, and the saints in the present dispensation should have the Spirit. If they have not got It they should ask for It, and the Father will give It to them.
AJG As regards “seeing God” — does that not require the mediatorship of Christ?
JT Just so. Besides, the word ‘seeing’ might refer to certain features of God, whatever they might be.
EP Would Hebrews 11: 1, apply with regard to God being seen? “Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”.
JT Well, the things that are seen are temporal, but things that are not seen are eternal, and these are the things that belong to christianity, and that is what we are dealing with, in this wonderful chapter of Ephesians.
EP I was thinking that faith has come, and the present time has been referred to as a ‘faith dispensation’; faith would help us to move into all these [p. 178] matters.
JT Quite so. The Spirit enables us to move in. We arrive at the understanding of the revelation of God in the power of the Spirit. So, in that sense, we see what is unseen.
Rem We see God in His beloved Son.
JT That is true, but the beloved Son is God. “He is the true God and eternal life”. He is the true God Himself, so it is all mysterious, only that we are within the realm of it, because we have the Spirit.
Rem The Spirit operates in the region of faith, hence the importance of believing and the maintenance of faith, so that the Spirit may operate freely.
JT Quite so. So that the recovery, as we have already said today, is to the full thought of christianity, and I think it should be kept in mind that Mr. Darby and those who walked with him one hundred and twenty years ago were used for the recovery of the full thought of christianity: not simply what they had at Pentecost, but Paul’s ministry as well. Thank God it has continued, and it is being kept continued because the brethren keep on with these meetings, where we get the truth developed and time to develop it, especially in three days meetings.
ECM Would the “things ... which God has prepared for them that love him” be connected with the spiritual blessings here? They are said to be revealed by the Spirit, for “the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”.
JT Quite so, “The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”. That is what we are dealing with. This epistle contemplates that — the full thought of God in christianity.
Ques Is active faith needed right through the service of God?
JT Quite so. The systems have not got it; that is really the truth. They have not got the service of God, because they have not developed faith; they [p. 179] have returned to the idea of sight, and systematic things according to man’s ways; such as Presbyterianism and Baptists and so forth. They have given up the idea of faith, and they have given up the idea of the Spirit of God. It is a terrible thing to think of, but it is really the truth, and it is making way for the terrible apostasy that is coming in, which the apostle speaks of in the epistle to the Thessalonians.
Ques Have you got the idea in Caleb? It says in Numbers 13: 30. “And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up boldly and possess it, for we are well able to do it. But the men that went up with him said, We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we”. Do you think it gives the difference between faith and faithless persons in regard to the inheritance?
JT Quite so, I should not like to direct our attention to ourselves, but in truth that is what is implied in the recovery; that we have come back to the thought of faith and the Spirit of God. It is a wonderful thing that it is so, and I believe the Lord is going to keep it until a certain time and then He will have recourse to sight; in the millennial day, it will be a question of what is seen. Thomas was like that; he says he would not believe unless he put his finger into the mark of the nails. He represents a Jew at that time, but we have faith at the present time, and therefore we come to the full thought of christianity.
AH So that in “our struggle” which is referred to in chapter 6, the shield of faith has a very large place.
JT That is just what we are talking about; faith is the great feature of the epistle to the Ephesians. The means of the full thought of God being recovered is in the epistle to the Ephesians.
AH And is all the armour there to maintain us in this elevated position?
JT Just so: “Put on the panoply of God” is the full thought. It is to protect us in faith.
GWB Does the assembly at the end of our chapter in Ephesians fill out the type of Adam’s helpmate in Genesis 2?
JT Quite so. So that we have to come to this, that we are in the time of the Spirit, and the time of the fulness of recovery of what is of the Spirit. It is a question of what God has done for us to bring that about, and what He is doing for us now is to help us to keep it, and to continue in it. Later we come to the millennial period, but at the present time we are continuing in the full thought of God in the assembly; and the Spirit of God is helping us to do it, and I believe He is using these meetings, of which we are having so many recently, to this end. He is helping us on that one point, that great point, so that there is a continuance of the dispensation which God has inaugurated through the apostles at the beginning.
HW Is this the antitype of the last verse of Deuteronomy 29: “The hidden things belong to Jehovah our God; but the revealed ones are ours and our children’s for ever”. Is that the thought of continuity here?
JT Just so. Of course we are dealing with the New Testament, which refers to the gift of the Spirit, which we have as believers, and not with the Old Testament. We believers have the Spirit, but if we have not we should ask God for It.
AJG And we really have the hidden things, have we not? Things that were hidden from before the ages are now made known.
JT Just so.
JSE If one can make a remark, it is that your frequent and emphatic references to the Spirit, in this visit, ought really to search all our hearts as to [p. 181] whether we are consciously getting back, by the help of the Spirit, to God’s richest and original thoughts.
JT Just so; and if we have got back to it to stay in it.
JSE Yes, I feel this allusion to the last section of this chapter as taking us back to Genesis 2, links us on with a scene where sin has never intruded.
JT Just so.
Ques Do you get the “staying and continuing” suggested in Acts 1? And are we to be there too? “And when they were come into the city, they went up to the upper chamber, where were staying ...”
JT Very good; and there were certain women, too, staying there.
ETS Would all that we have been enjoying this morning be in order to make us come into the full knowledge of Him in verse 17, so that the Father may have a fuller return from us? Some of us, if I may speak for others, feel that there is perhaps a paucity in connection with the answer to the Father’s love, and I wondered if we prayed that prayer which is in verse 17, that we might come into the full knowledge of Him, there might be a fuller and more definite response to the Father.
JT Yes, so that if the recovery has taken place, and it has, in certain men we have alluded to whom God used to do it, the Spirit of God remains here. They have gone to be with the Lord, but the Spirit remains here. He is here all the time, and it is in His power that we — can realise — or hope to realise — what we are speaking of.
AJG So there is no lapse in the continued work of recovery; the Spirit is guiding all the time into all the truth.
JT The fact is, I think, that there has been a measure of recovery even since they were taken. For the last fifty years, I would say, there has been steady indication of recovery, and a desire in the [p. 182] service of God to go on in it, because the service of God has attained a peculiar phase in the past thirty or forty years. I am speaking subject to correction by the brethren, but it is my judgment that this is what has happened, and the thing is now, at meetings like this, to revive ourselves, and to revive each other by being reminded of what has happened. Then there is what is in the Scriptures themselves, that “every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work”. That is the position.