MAIDSTONE - READING (3)
MAIDSTONE — READING (3)
Hebrews 3: 1 - 19; Hebrews 4: 1 - 16
JT There are two main thoughts in these chapters. The first is the word of God, and the second the priesthood of Christ. Our remarks therefore should be centred on these points as of immense importance; that is to say, the word of God, by which we are guided and instructed, and the priesthood of Christ by which we are supported. The address at the beginning is encouraging; it says, “Wherefore, holy brethren”. Again, we have the word ‘wherefore’, showing that it is sequential as connecting with what has preceded it, the heavenly calling, as in contrast to what will mark the millennium. Although the millennium will link up with heaven, yet in principle it is the earthly position. So it says here, “partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus, who is faithful to him that has constituted him, as Moses also in all his house”. The house undoubtedly refers to the assembly, as it says later in the chapter, “whose house are we”; that would be the assembly, and Christ is over it. The thought here again is clearly as in chapter 1, to bring out the deity of Christ, the personal greatness of Christ, and the bearing of it as in the word of God which is for our instruction, and then the priesthood of Christ which is for our support. The object indeed is, as we have already remarked, the service of God, and that we should be instructed as to that. The high priesthood of Christ is in view of that, so that we might be equal to the service of God. The first day of the week, of course, enters into it because it involves the Lord’s supper, which is the beginning of the service of God.
AJG Is the word of God involved in this, “Today if ye will hear his voice”?
JT I thought that was the idea, and the ‘wherefore’ linking on with what we have had already as to the greatness of Christ and the service of God of which He is the Mediator. “Having a great priest over the house of God”, as it is said, in chapter 10, “let us approach”. The idea of building too is to be noted: “every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God”. The Lord Jesus having built the assembly, as He says Himself, “On this rock I will build my assembly”. He is greater than the minister in it, although He Himself is High Priest in it.
RWS What is the force of “consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession”? Does “our confession” allude to christianity?
JT That is right. That is what I understand, as compared with the Old Testament; because the idea of high priesthood began there. But the “our” is to point to christianity; it is what is in the assembly. So that it says, “He has been counted [p. 271] worthy of greater glory than Moses, by how much he that has built it has more honour than the house. For every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God”. That is to say, Christ is God; for He is the Builder of the house. “All things” is the universe.
Ques Would you say a word as to the Lord’s title as “the Apostle ... of our confession”. Does that link with the word of God?
JT Apostleship is authority as in inauguration, in the sense of one who inaugurates. Of course, it may come down to a minister, such as Paul, and the apostles are all ministers. Christ is the great High Priest, the great One.
FCH Would you say a word as to “the house” and also being “companions of the Christ”. In connection with the house it says, “if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end”, and then in verse 14 it says, “For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end”.
JT So that these things are conditional; the “if” is what is conditional.
PL And does it bring in the moral side with us?
JT Reading from the beginning of the third verse it says, “For he has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, by how much he that has built it has more honour than the house. For every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God” — referring to Christ as the Builder, that Christ is God. And then, “Moses indeed was faithful in all his house, as a ministering servant” — that is to say, there is a difference between a servant and the builder of a house, a servant in and the builder of. “Moses indeed was faithful in all his house, as a ministering servant, for a testimony of the things to be spoken after; but Christ, as Son over his house, whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end”. So that the contrast clearly is in the servant and the builder, the servant in the house and the builder of it. The builder, of course, is God, and that makes Christ God.
WmH Would the thought of “Son over” suggest the immense superiority of christianity, in the influence He would wield over the house in contrast to Moses?
JT Just so. So that in order to get the negative side, I would say that we might well compare what we have — I mean those of us who are seeking to walk in the truth of the assembly — with the so-called systems about us. They are all leading to apostasy — all of them. There can be no protection aside from the presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints. Apart from that, all is tending to apostasy; some are already [p. 267] in it.
AJG Is the word of God the antidote to apostasy, as bringing in what is living?
JT Just so. Very good. The living God is the idea. All else is exposed to degeneracy and to a constant tendency to error and corruption; that is what is all around us. The only preservation for all is in the presence of the Holy Spirit, on the ground of redemption. The Holy Spirit is here, as sent down by Christ, and redemption is involved in it.
ECM In 1 Timothy 4 it says, “the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons”. I was thinking of the Spirit speaking expressly, and wondered if the Spirit in that way would assert His authority in the speaking.
JT Authority — yes, quite so.
AJG The Spirit here seems to call attention to the word of God, to the voice of God, as though He is alert as to conditions among the saints, and will call attention to any tendency to disregard the word of God.
JT Just so. We should be greatly impressed with the terribleness of the conditions around us. Whatever external appearances they may have, the actual inward conditions are dreadful, and we are all to be warned about it, but especially young people because they are the ones to carry on in the truth. Those who are older are gradually going to be with the Lord, but the younger are to carry on in the truth, and, of course, their youthfulness is intended to be used of God. It is not intended to be weakness but strength, for power is needed, “I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abides in you” — “the word of God”. That is the idea; strength is involved in the word of God, and [p. 268] right teaching.
JSE Is your allusion to conditions the reason why you are so concerned that we should be more simple in the usage of the word “the assembly” rather than clinging to the expression “a remnant”? Is it not as we go on in relation to the word of God that we find ourselves more free in relation to the fulness of the thought connected with the word “assembly”?
JT I do not think the Lord intended to have used the idea of a remnant, as conveying the thought of the assembly, because the presence of the Holy Spirit involves the idea of the body and that is a whole thought. It is not a partial thought; it is a whole thought. There is no such thought as the body really in the Old Testament. Actually the word ‘remnant’ applies there, but now the presence of the Spirit of God here implies the whole thought. This gives great encouragement in our ministry, and it is to keep in our minds that there is a whole thought behind it, and the whole thought is Christ Himself in His body. And so the importance of holding the truth of the body is referred to in 1 Corinthians 12.
WC Would the reference here to the Spirit’s voice point to the Revelation, where we are called upon to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies?
JT That is what I thought. It is referred to seven times. It is what the Spirit says. What the Lord says is mentioned specifically, but what the Spirit says is left open. We are perhaps dealing with that now, in a meeting like this; we might say, the Spirit’s voice may be heard, I am not saying it is, but it is aimed at. The Lord, I am sure, never intended the assembly to be brought down to the thought of a remnant, and the revival implies that the whole thought is revived, so that the love of Christ is active in it, “The love of the Christ constrains us”, Paul says, “having judged this: that one [p. 269] died for all, then all have died”, and then he proceeds to speak on those lines in 2 Corinthians 5. The Lord speaks of the assembly as “my assembly”. He says, “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”, and that is a good assurance that we do not need to drop to the level of a remnant; the whole thought has been revived. Hence the next paragraph here, “Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness ...” and so forth. The “wherefore” here refers to the whole idea, the voice of the Holy Spirit and the whole idea of the assembly.
JSE Did not Mr. Darby reason with the brethren in Dublin on this very point at the beginning, that if they had not the whole thing before them they would go to pieces like the rest of the denominations?
JT Very good. It was a constant strain of thought in his ministry. He was raised up for that purpose, I am sure. We might regard apostleship as having some reference to him. He maintained the whole thought, and although, of course, there are discrepancies now, and we may as well accept what there is, yet the whole general thought of the revival implied the whole thought of the assembly.
FCH Is that helpfully illustrated in Caleb? He not only followed the Lord his God but he followed Jehovah the God of Israel. He had the whole thought before him, did he not?
JT Just so; “our whole twelve tribes”. Paul says.
AWGT Does Philadelphia represent the whole thought and not a remnant?
JT It is the whole thought. The Lord regards Philadelphia as the whole. His letter to that assembly is the greatest feature of the letters to the assemblies, and we are in the very midst of it, thank God, and it is because there has been a revival of the truth.
[p. 270] The whole idea is thus now maintained here in ministry, and, of course, the Lord would keep us to that, and the Lord is keeping us to it. At the same time there is a certain responsibility attaching to every one of us, especially those who have gift, to keep to the whole thought and not let it go. So the Lord says here (we should note the pronouns He uses), “Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet” — that is the assembly — “and shall know that I have loved thee”. That is the assembly; Christ loved the assembly, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience” — here again the “thou” is the same as the assembly — “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown”. So that the whole idea is in the mind of the Lord in these words, and then we are to hear what the Spirit is saying to us. That is to say, all the current ministry, I would say, for well nigh now one hundred and thirty years, has to be listened to, as the Spirit’s voice; it is what the Spirit is saying to the assembly.
ACSP Is that why there is such emphasis in the chapter in Hebrews on the expression “Today”?
JT Exactly, “Today” is the thing, and we are not to miss it. The Lord is urging that we should not miss it, that we should not be turned aside. That is our present subject this afternoon. “Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling” — that is implied in the address to the assembly at Philadelphia — “the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus, who is faithful to him that has constituted him, as Moses also in all his house. For he has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, by how much he that has built it has more honour than the house. For every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God”. God is Christ here; He built the house, and He is over it as High Priest.
RWS Is it worthy of observation that the material for the house, in the main, seems to be secured from the families of the saints as over against, in earlier days, those coming in from the sectarian positions?
JT I think so. Of course. Open Brethrenism arose almost at once after the revival began. It is a most terrible thing to think of too. That system began almost at once, and it remains, and I believe, and it is sorrowful to say it, it is included in the systems that we have already spoken of, in which man’s will has liberty. Open Brethrenism makes room for man’s will and for certain doctrines that are characteristic, and which will mean that the apostasy will overtake them.
AW Would that be in principle Laodicea, which follows Philadelphia?
JT Quite so, although Philadelphia, I think will go on to the end.
EuR The house that the Son builds must go through intact? “Hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”.
JT The Lord says, “I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. That is to say, the Lord implies that it shall not be overcome, and that is most comforting, and, of course, the secret is that the Spirit of God is here yet in the assembly. He is in a vessel. All the ministry that is coming to us, I believe fully, implies that the Spirit is with us. I use the word ‘us’ because of the observation that the truth comes out from time to time to confirm us that we are on the right line of things, and surely we are to be confirmed that our [p. 272] position is right, I use the word ‘our’ because there is consciousness that the Spirit of God is with us.
AMP Does the Spirit’s ministry constantly emphasise the whole constitutional character that belongs to us as obeying the truth?
JT Just so.
Ques Is there a need for overcoming all that may feature of apostasy, in order to hear what the Spirit says to the last four assemblies?
JT I think overcoming is the secret of the whole matter, because the overcoming implies that the whole truth is preserved, at least in principle, in the overcomer. In view of the Lord’s remark, the overcomer must mean that. “He that overcomes” — the Lord would not use that except in the sense that the Spirit was there to stand by the truth.
JSE Is there a parallel here with what came before us at the last reading in London, in relation to the mountain that Jesus had appointed them? Does the priesthood of Christ peculiarly stand available where the conditions suited to the house prevail?
JT Quite so; it is in keeping with the house. The house is a whole condition, and the principle in keeping with the house implies that the priesthood of Christ is maintained.
JSE I was just linking it in my mind with the authoritative touch we had in London, that, although the number was broken, the Lord says, “I am with you all the days”.
JT Just so. The eleven disciples are there, and the Lord speaks to them as if the whole were there, but it says “some doubted”. Of course, we have to admit that, because there is a doubting condition generally, we might say, but it does not interfere in the Lord’s remarks in Matthew 28. It does not interfere with the whole idea of the assembly, because Matthew’s gospel has the whole idea in it.
[p. 273] It is the assembly gospel, as we rightly say. The whole idea is maintained, and I think it is one of the greatest comforts that we have, that the whole idea is maintained, even although there may be discrepancies. The eleven involves the whole company, the whole thought to be maintained.
PL Do you have that in the presence of the apostasy in Dan and others, in the book of Judges? It says, “Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it” — that is, the ark — “in those days”. Is that the whole thought maintained in priestly power?
JT That is very good. If you will be kind enough to read it.
PL Judges 20: 27: “And the children of Israel inquired of Jehovah (and the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, and Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it in those days), saying, Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother, or shall I cease? And Jehovah said, Go up; for tomorrow I will give them into thy hand”.
JT Undoubtedly that refers to what we have just been reading here. So that, “Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; where your fathers tempted me, by proving me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was wroth with this generation, and said, They always err in heart; and they have not known my ways; so I swore in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest”. The “if” there implies the negative — “If they shall enter into my rest. See, brethren, lest there be in any one of you a wicked heart of unbelief, in turning away from the living God”. That is the allusion really which you have made, so that the warning is to ourselves today, but it goes on further, “But encourage [p. 274] yourselves each day, as long as it is called Today, that none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end”. So that the “if” is a condition. And then it goes on to say, “in that it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation; for who was it, who, having heard, provoked? but was it not all who came out of Egypt by Moses?” That is when the great falling away took place. The same thing is happening in christendom, but the true idea of the assembly still holds, as the true idea of Israel also held in the days of Moses.
ECM Have you the two thoughts in Ezekiel, where he says, “I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man was standing by me”, Ezekiel 43: 6. Would that be the Spirit speaking, and would the priesthood of Christ be suggested in the man standing by?
JT Just so. It seems, therefore, to be a great appeal to us, in our own day, in view of the volume of ministry that has been coming to us from one source and another, as to whether we are keeping the word, because the word of God is involved in it.
WmH Does the thought of the word of God involve this complete thought?
JT I think so.
WmH Those who came out of Egypt only went part of the way. They did not accept the glad tidings in full, did they? It says, “for who was it, who, having heard, provoked? but was it not all who came out of Egypt by Moses? And with whom was he wroth forty years?” And then in chapter 4 it says, “the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard”.
JT Just so. So that “the word ... mixed with faith” is of immense importance, because it is a [p. 275] dispensation of faith we are in. Although faith existed from the outset, according to Hebrews 11, yet the Odd Testament was not the dispensation of faith, it was the dispensation of law, but we are in the dispensation of faith. Ours is a dispensation of faith, and it secures the presence of the Holy Spirit. Faith secures the presence of the Holy Spirit. And hence the Lord Jesus has sent Him down from heaven.
EP Do we see the overcomer in Paul when he writes in 2 Timothy 4: 7, “I have combated the good combat, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”?
JT Good. We are to keep to that, and do everything possible. There is one man positively right throughout. There were discrepancies even in Paul, we know from the book of Acts, but at the same time he was right throughout, “I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth the crown of righteousness is laid up for me”, the apostle could say.
EP So we get here the crown too, the same as in Philadelphia?
JT Just so.
RWS And because the word of God is living, might we expect fresh unfoldings as we are true to previous light?
JT As we are true to previous light — quite. The word of God is revived. The whole idea of the assembly was revived in the revival, and what can be said too is that the truth is being kept. It is really continuous in the ministry, up to the present time, by one source and another, and the thing now is that it may continue, “If indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm, and not moved away”. It is a continuance in that sense, because there is always an “if”, which we must observe.
[p. 276] AJG It is remarkable that this 4th chapter seems to contemplate a period of revival, because it says, if “those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word, again he determines a certain day, saying, in David, ‘Today’, after so long a time”; as though a time of revival emphasised the “Today” and the importance of it.
JT Just so, and the recurrence of the name “David”, in the book of Revelation, is very striking, “I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star”, the Lord says.
AJG Why do you think David has such a place in Revelation?
JT I think there must be some reference to Christ in David, “I am the root and offspring of David” — the offspring, and the root. There must be something of Christ in David, in that sense; it is peculiar.
AH In verse 7 of chapter 4, which has just been quoted, it says, “saying, in David”. Is that a reference to what you have just remarked, as to the authority of the word of God in the ministers?
JT Well, quite. So that the thought is that it should be clear, and that we are holding the right principles, because there is a question of principle. The truth of the assembly is not being given up; it is being held, and God is with the brethren on account of that, and I believe He will be with us to the end. I verily believe that the Lord will be with us to the end, and so there is a further word as to “them also that love his appearing”.
FCH So that diligence is in contrast to negligence in this epistle?
JT Quite so. So the description of the word of God that we have in verses 11 - 13 is very striking, “Let us therefore use diligence to enter into that rest, that no one may fall after the same example [p. 277] of not hearkening to the word. For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow” — again a figure — “and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do”. Then again, there is another “therefore”, “Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart”. That is Christ. “Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help”. It is a wonderful finish to the chapter, and to the section we are now dealing with.
CS Would you say a word with regard to the rest of God which is referred to in these chapters, and our entering into rest.
JT I suppose it is a question of what we are coming into, and what we have been brought into in having the Spirit, through redemption. What we have in truth — to be simple about it — is reality, and the whole truth in principle. It is no question of boasting at all, but of facts. It is a question of what we have in the power of the Spirit, because the Spirit is allowed in us. He has His own place in us, making room for the assembly.
AM In the reference to Joshua in verse 8, do we get a suggestion that it is not enough to be in a mere position? May we not settle down in a mere position without being in the reality of things?
JT Well, we are not doing it, thank God! It is no boast to say [p. 278] that.
AM I was only thinking of the warning note to the saints in these days, that we may rest in a position such as that into which Joshua brought the people in his day.
JT That is quite so, but I do not think it is true to fact, because God has carried the thing through since the revival without any discrepancy really, and it is being carried through now. There is no question of attaching importance to any person, but the truth is being held, and God is doing it for us. The Spirit of God is being accorded a place amongst us, and He is going on, and the truth is going forward.
AJG Do we not in fact sometimes have the sense by the Spirit in assembly that we do touch the scene of God’s rest?
JT Just so. That is just what I am trying to say, because I have not a doubt but that it is so, and that it is God that is doing it. The Spirit of God is doing it, because He is allowed a place amongst us. You cannot get it in Open Brethrenism. You cannot get it in any of the systems. It is no question of boast, it is a question of facts that we are entitled to speak of. It would be unfair to the Lord if we did not speak of it, because He is doing it for us.
JCT He says in Ezekiel 43: 7, “And he said unto me, Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever”. He secures them, does He not? And is this the way in which you were saying God secures His rest in relation to the recovery?
JT Just so. God is faithful, as we get in the epistle to the Corinthians, “God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son”. The first epistle to the Corinthians asserts that, that God is faithful, and we can rely on that faithfulness, but then, of course, there is faithfulness [p. 279] on our part too. There is such a thing as that, thank God. We can reckon on it and we can speak of it. There is that faithfulness and it has continued on since the time of the beginning of the revival — not of the Reformation, but of the revival. The word, ‘revival’ is the proper word to use. It is God that has done it for us.
CH And do we not owe a great deal to the word of God, in its living character?
JT Quite so, and hence the word as to the Scriptures: “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching” and so forth. We have often quoted that.
AJG Has the word of God a double bearing, first bringing out positively God’s thoughts regarding His people, and then secondly disclosing to us anything in us that is hindering us from entering into them?
JT Quite so. It is the faithfulness of God, “God is faithful”. It is a comforting thought! He will not give us up. The Spirit has been sent down from heaven, and He is not going until the assembly is taken up.
Ques You have been emphasising the need of holding to the whole truth of the assembly. Does not that correspond with holding fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end?
JT Just so. Then verse 16. “Let us approach therefore with boldness” — notice that, with boldness — “to the throne of grace” — the throne of grace is a remarkable thing, that grace is on the throne, and it is Himself in power. Himself on the throne, “that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help”.
GHSP Are we right in looking upon the unbroken loaf at the Supper as bringing before us the whole thought of the assembly?
[p. 280] JT Just so. I am afraid that some of those brethren that we have been speaking of do have a broken loaf. I remember being in France, and they strongly resisted what I was saying to them there, because they had a broken loaf. I was trying to show them that it should be a loaf and not a piece of bread. Does that agree with what you have in mind?
GHSP Yes, I was thinking of the distinctive place that the Supper has, and wondering whether there is not to be touchingly brought before us, week by week, the whole idea of the assembly as we come together.
JT Exactly. Hence there should not be a broken loaf or a piece of bread, but the whole loaf, because Christ is seen in that. The loaf is the body of Christ, “The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ?”.
HF Have you in mind that we should be so conversant with the word of God that we should be able to use it in measure as He Himself used it when He was tempted of the devil in the wilderness?
JT In every temptation the Lord answers the devil Himself from the word of God.
HF “It is written” occurs three times.
JT Just so.