MAIDSTONE - READING (5)
[p. 301] MAIDSTONE — READING (5)
Hebrews 6: 1 - 20; Hebrews 7: 1 - 28
JT In view of what has been remarked earlier in regard of chapter 5, it may be said profitably that our Lord exercised faith. He is said to be “the leader and completer of faith”. I make this remark because it may be thought that it is degrading to regard Him as exercising faith, but that is not so, because it says He was “in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God”. So that faith applies to Him, indeed, as remarked, He is the Leader and Completer of it. The remarks that have been made as to chapter 5 in connection with what is said about the Lord in such a remarkable way in the days of His flesh, would fit in with these remarks. It cannot be said that He exercises faith now, but He clearly did, because it says He is the Leader and Completer of it.
RWS In Psalm 22 — “thou didst make me trust, upon my mother’s breasts” — is that alluding to faith?
JT Just so.
PL And as the Author has He been the Source of all faith in the generation of faith? Has this to be viewed retrospectively from Adam onwards, or Abel onwards?
JT I suppose it is one of the things that attached to Him as the Messiah here. Faith came down from the outset and it is seen extended in this epistle to the Hebrews. We may, therefore, be assured that the Lord having come here as Man, and walking here as a Man in dependence on God, exercised faith.
Ques Would you think that is seen on the cross in Luke, when He says. “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit”?
JT Just so — in dependence on God.
HW Are you thinking that throughout the whole of His pathway faith marked Him? There are so many references in the Psalms, are there not, particularly in the sorrow Psalms. In Psalm 69, for instance, we get, “I wait for my God”.
JT Yes; well, I think it is quite clear, but I have made the remark as to it lest there may be those here who either do not understand or do not think that the Lord walked by faith. I know that that has been said, and I think it is wise for all of us to get things clear in such a meeting as this, because the Spirit of God is here to help us; He is ready to help us on all these points.
Ques What does the expression, “the leader and completer of faith”, include? I was thinking of the word “completer”. Does it suggest that He has been into every circumstance that faith could possibly be tested in?
JT That is to say, He has been through everything, and whatever He did go through, He did it well. “I have completed the work” — for instance, the Lord says, “which thou gavest me that I should do it”. Things are finished and completed. He did it perfectly, whatever He did.
FCH How do you regard the expression in Romans 3, “the faith of Jesus”? Is that something different?
JT It is different; it is ‘of’ there. It is the faith, really, that lays hold of something. It is a time of faith, and, of course, “the faith of Jesus” is simply that it is the faith that would lay hold of the truth, according to Romans in view of the gospel. But what we have already said applies to Him as a Man walking here before He died. He walked here on the principle of faith, such as the godly men of the Old Testament exercised.
EuR Psalm 16 verse 1, “Preserve me, O God: for I trust in thee”.
JT That is a clear indication that He did exercise it.
ECM Is the thought of God’s pleasure linked up with it? Without faith it is impossible to please God.
JT Well, just so. That would show negatively that He exercised faith.
WC Would it specially be seen in the temptation in the wilderness and in Gethsemane?
JT Yes. Satan would seek to take Him out of the hands of God. So it says: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God’s mouth”. He was truly Man, and Satan would have set it aside by saying, “If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread”. I think we should proceed now with chapter 6 and touch chapter 7, although we have dealt with chapter 7 somewhat already. So that the first word in chapter 6 is, “Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ” — we have the same idea in “the elements of the beginning”, but here it is “the beginning of the Christ”, referring to Him, not only in His walk here on earth, but what He is now in heaven — the beginning of what He is. So that it goes on to say “Let us go on to what belongs to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, of the doctrine of washings, and of imposition of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment; and this will we do if God permit. For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for [p. 304] themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him”. These are most remarkable statements, and it seems to me it would be well worth our while to look into them from the beginning of the chapter. There are many statements that will be questioned in the minds of many, as to certain things said here, but it is a very solemn thing. “For it is impossible” it says in verse 4, “to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away”. The possibility of a person so described falling away is perhaps what we do not take on, or understand fully.
Ques Would you mind repeating what you said just now as to “leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ”.
JT Well, just what He is, and viewing Him as the subject of the gospel, “The beginning of the Christ” — what has taken place in Him. It is not only His walk here on earth, but His present position on high, and the beginning of it has to be thought of here.
JPH Is it that certain things are to be regarded as settled, and not to be questioned, but to be understood, and the saints going on from them?
JT Yes. Certain things which are spoken of as “the beginning of the Christ”, certain things about Him. The thought is to reach full growth, but “the beginning of the Christ” would be what belongs to babehood; persons who are in need of milk, and unable to lay hold of strong food.
AMP Would faith in God be the initial act of faith?
JT That is right.
AMP I thought in christendom it is regarded as the final matter in this sense.
JT [p. 305] It is. It is only initial things that are mentioned here. It is not the full thought of anything, but the initial things, for faith goes on to the end of our journey. It is the period of faith, for we are really in the dispensation of faith.
ALRT Is the suggestion here that if we do not go on we are in danger of falling away?
JT Exactly. In fact it says “it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, ... and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away”.
AH Would falling away be a return to judaism?
JT It would imply that. Of course, morally it would imply what is current in christendom. Methodists are given to speaking of such things as falling away, and falling from grace, whereas the truth of the gospel implies that if we are saved, we are saved. The Lord says in John 10, “No one shall seize them out of my hand ... and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father”. It would be positive error and unsettle souls if anything contrary to that were admitted.
AJG If we are sealed with the Holy Spirit we are sealed in view of the day of redemption.
JT Just so. It seems as if we are marked off as belonging to God and belonging to Him eternally, so that we can never be lost.
Ques Does it mean that the foundation is sure, and we are to go on from that point?
JT Just so — “the firm foundation of God stands”.
NKM What is meant here by the heavenly gift — “who have tasted of the heavenly gift”?
JT I would say it is the Holy Spirit. In fact it says in verse 4, “made partakers of the Holy Spirit”, “Tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come” — the heavenly gifts are [p. 306] included. What is meant really is, suppose a person is here today, right here in this hall, and he is uncertain about his salvation; he is listening and the Holy Spirit is here, unquestionably here to help us, and this person that I was assuming is here. He leaves the meeting and becomes cold, or becomes uncertain as to his salvation; well, he has had the opportunity of tasting of these things. He is tasting in the sense that he is enjoying the atmosphere of the Spirit of God here at the moment, and if he leaves — that is the thing — he has tasted of the things. If he now turns away from it, that is what is in mind here, because in a meeting like this, and at any time where meetings are held, the Holy Spirit is here in the midst of the saints and any man of that kind may be turned aside after having tasted the thing. That is what is really meant in this passage.
FCH It refers to persons, you mean, who are in the presence and power of these things, and then give them up.
JT That is right — tasted them.
AMP The word for ‘partakers’ is not the word for ‘full partnership’, but for an external association.
JT That is right.
PL Would Simon Magus illustrate such a man?
JT I would say so; Peter’s word was very strong as to him. He had already tasted of the thing, and he would like to buy the power to give the Spirit.
AJG Does not christendom as a whole benefit greatly by the presence of the Spirit, although entirely indifferent to it?
JT Just so, and I was remarking, there is a certain sect called Wesleyans. The very name indicates a false system; it is not christianity; it refers to John Wesley. They take it on as a creed, and they are very apt to assume that persons can be saved today and lost tomorrow; it is a common thing with them. They speak about ‘falling away’, and refer to it in formal words — ‘falling from grace’.
Ques Would you say that if we fall from grace, there is nothing else to save us?
JT There is nothing else; just so. If we fall from it, in the sense of giving it up. Of course, it is not to be denied that a person may grow cold and may become deceived and darkened in his soul and yet he might be the Lord’s. That is not what is meant in what has been said. What has been said is just what is meant, that many assume to be saved one day and lost another, which is a false doctrine; for it is taught as a doctrine.
JSE Has the Holy Spirit in the earlier chapters plainly shown that judaism was valueless. Christianity is the great system in which God is known, and if there is a falling away from that, there is nothing left.
JT Just so. To return to judaism would be apostasy, really. That is just what is meant in this chapter.
GP So that in the next chapter you get the idea of “save completely”. Is that the power of christianity?
JT Just so. That is christianity that is dealt with, and our great priesthood in Melchisedec — the Melchisedec priesthood. The terribleness of what is involved in this chapter is seen in verse 6: “And have fallen away, crucifying for themselves” — as far as they are concerned, “as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him. For ground which drinks the rain which comes often upon it, and produces useful herbs for those for whose sakes also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God; but bringing forth thorns and briars it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned”. It is utterly worthless; “nigh to a curse” would imply that it has really come to the idea of [p. 308] curse.
CH Would the contrast to this condition be seen in verse 9: “But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things”?
JT Quite so; that is the saving side, and all the way down now we can rest upon that; “For God is not unrighteous to forget your work”. He comforts us, in that sense — “and the love which ye have shewn to his name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering. But we desire earnestly that each one of you shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end”. Now we have the word ‘hope’ and that is the thing we might well notice, because it is a thing that belongs to christianity. We have faith, hope, love — it belongs to christianity properly.
HPW That is a very sweet word — “the full assurance of hope”.
JT Quite so, “That ye be not sluggish” — because that is the danger, being sluggish, “but imitators of those who through faith and patience have been inheritors of the promises”.
CH Would an appreciation of the word of God preserve us from even starting in this direction? I was thinking of the way the apostle refers to it in verse 5 — “the good word of God”, as though he speaks appreciatively of it.
JT Quite so; it would preserve us. That fits in, therefore, more fully with the passage that we have just read down to verse 12.
AJG In chapter 7 it speaks of “the introduction of a better hope by which we draw nigh to God”. Is not that really the secret of salvation, to draw nigh to God?
JT Quite so. Hope is therefore power in the soul. Then from verse 13 it leads on at the end of the chapter to the idea of Christ being the forerunner as a Priest for us: “Both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered [p. 309] as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec” (verses 19, 20). The end of chapter 6 is a beautiful finish and an assuring finish: “as anchor of the soul” — beautiful thought — “both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil”. We often speak of that: ‘inside the veil, and outside the camp’, “Entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us, become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec”. It is a beautiful sentence, assuring us of the truth of the gospel, the firmness of it. It is like a foundation, as it says: “The firm foundation of God stands”. But then it is very beautiful that we go inside the veil. Many of us stay outside, but here the point is going inside the veil. ‘Outside the camp, inside the veil’, ‘Outside the camp’ means that we have given up christendom, really, as a camp. That is what it is, and as giving it up we have already entered inside within the veil. That is our place.
RGB So that in chapter 10 it refers to our having “boldness for entering into the holy of holies ... through the veil”. Christianity properly belongs to within, would you say?
JT Quite so. Christianity properly belongs to within, and here it is the same thing — “within the veil”.
WC Is this a reference to the type of the city of refuge? The one who fled there remained till the death of the high priest, but the priest here lives for ever.
JT Yes.
WF Does this expression, “within the veil”, become the more important as the apostasy increases? That is, there is a position inside where the apostasy is not experienced.
JT It is very good to think of that, because the apostasy is current now, around us. Paul refers to [p. 310] it where the Thessalonians were afraid that the day of the Lord had come, and he points out to them that it would not happen unless the apostasy came first. The imminence of the apostasy is a terrible thought, and it is largely, I believe now, centred in Russia. That is to say, communism is the great apostasy that is current. There is no other element of evil, as far as I see, worse than the idea of communism, and it is centring in Russia. We may as well say so, because it is the truth, and the world is threatened by it. But the Lord says to Philadelphia, “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. I think that is one of the greatest comforts that we can have.
AM Is the repeated reference to the personal name ‘Jesus’ in this epistle, really over against the apostate principles around?
JT Just so. We had it, I think, yesterday. “We see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour” — we see Him, as if we have to understand what that means. Stephen saw Him. He does not call Him Jesus; he calls Him the Son of man, and that is another thing to think of. But Jesus is the One we see, according to the second chapter of this book.
RWS We are to go on then with our meetings, with the service of God and the meeting for prayer, in the presence of communism; just to proceed with them, and God will see us through in it.
JT Proceed with our general practice, just so.
Ques Is the “forerunner for us” to help us as to what we are in the mind of God?
JT The forerunner implies that the place is secured. It is a certain matter, that He has gone in first and we are all to go — as it says in John 14: “I go to prepare you a place; and if I go and shall prepare you a place, I am coming again and shall [p. 311] receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be”. That is what is meant.
Ques Is it encouraging with regard to our brother’s remark, that we are to go on, as it says: “For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us”, 2 Corinthians 1: 20. Would that encourage us to go on?
JT Surely, and what follows that is that we are anointed and sealed, and have the earnest of the Spirit. Those three things are an assurance to us.
I think we should go on with chapter 7. We touched on Melchisedec already, and now we might as well just return to it again because it is so vital to understand. There need be no question in our minds as to Melchisedec, that he really refers to Christ Himself from verse 14: “For it is clear that our Lord has sprung out of Juda, as to which tribe Moses spake nothing as to priests”. The matter is wholly clear now that our priest is not a levitical priest; He is the Lord Jesus Himself who sprung from Juda.
RGB Does the greatness of the system require such a great Person as priest?
JT That is just the thought, and of course we have had that already, but it is brought in here again apparently to strengthen what has already been said. We may be perfectly sure now as to who Christ is, as a great Priest over the house of God. It is not simply a high priest, but a great Priest — morally great.
Ques This epistle refers a good deal to the thought of perfection. It is referred to in verse 11 here: “If indeed then perfection were by the Levitical priesthood”. Is it right to say that Christianity is a system of perfection?
JT Quite so; it is a perfect system. It says in the end of chapter 11, “That they should not be made perfect without us”. Perfection is that we [p. 312] attain the full thought in mind in what is said. So it is said in Matthew: “Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. It is just that we have arrived at the full thought that is indicated in the teaching.
Ques So in the beginning of chapter 6 where it says. “Let us go on ... to full growth”, the word might read ‘perfection’. It means arriving at christianity proper, does it?
JT Quite so, and therefore what we had yesterday is all the more sure to us, that the Spirit of God is amongst us. We are going on with what is, in itself, perfect. We have not a doubt about it, that we are going on with true christianity, and we should not give it up for a moment.
AJG The head of the system being the Son would involve great dignity and liberty marking the system.
JT Quite so.
AM Is it to be regarded as something entirely new, and not just an advance, or an increase or modification, of what has preceded? Is not that stressed?
JT It is entirely new; quite so. The word ‘new’ is applied.
Ques Is that indicated in Revelation 5 where there is no one found worthy to open the book but the Lion of the tribe of Juda?
JT Quite so; it is another allusion to the greatness of Christ. But “the lion which is of the tribe of Juda” is remarkable, because the Lamb is in mind, and a lamb as a diminutive thought. It is very remarkable that He is called a Lion, too, meaning strength; infinite strength is there. No one but He is able to open the book, because He has got power.
AJG He is said to be “the root of David” in that scripture, “And one of the elders says to me, Do not weep. Behold, the lion which is of the tribe [p. 313] of Juda, the root of David, has overcome so as to open the book, and its seven seals”.
JT It is remarkable, and we all should be comforted by it, that so much is made of the greatness of Christ, the deity of Christ, that He is God Himself. Under various terms the idea of power is so presented in Him.
JSE “How great this personage was”. I wondered if we could have a little more as to these frequent references to Melchisedec, all the time with Christ Himself in the Spirit’s mind.
JT Quite so, and ‘was’ is a literal allusion to the personage that is found in Genesis. It is a literal allusion, for he was a great personage, but in truth when we come down to verse 14 here it is the Lord Himself personally that is in mind. It is not the figurative person in the book of Genesis, but the Lord Himself, who is of the tribe of Juda. It is a literal reference to the Lord Himself as sprung from Juda.
PL And the greatness of the company is seen in the glory and dignity of this Person. It says He “became us”.
JT “Became us” — very good. In the ‘us’ the dignity and greatness of the people are seen, and so we often say, quoting from the Old Testament, “this thy great people”. I am sure you have that in mind. It is not that we want to draw attention to ourselves, but still the fact remains that those who have the Holy Spirit are a great people. They are a heavenly people, too; they are fit to go to heaven, because that is what is coming to pass almost immediately, that we are going to heaven. “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet [p. 314] the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord”. That is our hope.
JCT Does not Melchisedec come forward when Abraham is seen as completely superior to the whole world system?
JT Just so. He is greater than the King of Sodom, any way. He would not take anything from him. That is a good point for us, that we will not take anything from the world. It is not great enough for us.
WF In chapter 2 there is something that became God, and in this chapter there is something that becomes ourselves. Would you be free to say a further word as to that expression? I was referring to chapter 2 first of all: “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”. And now in chapter 7 we have, “For such a high priest became us”.
JT Yes; it is because of our greatness. It means that the greatness of the saints, really those of the assembly, requires such a Person as head — that is, Christ Himself. And so in the end of the first of Ephesians it says of the Lord: “gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. That is to say, the saints are the body of Christ and have part in the headship. They are not deified, they are merely creatures, but they have part in the headship. It is a marvellous thing that that can be said of the assembly. We should have it in mind, for we need to accept that in view of the service of God, when we are exercising it, that we have part in the headship.
Ques You have been speaking of christianity as the system of perfection. Would you say a word on the last expression in the chapter: “A Son perfected for ever”?
JT [p. 315] We have been speaking of the word ‘perfect’ and the meaning of it, and, of course, you can see that that meaning enters into what you are speaking of. “The Son perfected for ever”, refers to His having attained to what is intended in the purpose of God.
AJG His glorious position in manhood in the presence of God, and that is to remain for ever.
JT Just so.
Ques And that position based on redemption?
JT That would be right, but I think it would be better to base it on the Person of Christ, what He is personally.
EuR Does christianity as a system of perfection involve the opened heavens, Christ in glory and the Spirit here?
JT Just so. But what are you referring to the opened heavens for? I know it is the truth, but we are trying to keep to the accuracy of the passage we are dealing with. The book of Acts might be more accurately said to be the opened heavens, and the book of Revelation also. In fact, it is a thought running through the whole of the New Testament.
ALRT Would you say a word as to “become higher than the heavens”. It is the same verse which speaks of what is becoming us.
JT That is a good question. “Higher than the heavens” means an uncreated condition which is only possible for a divine Person, but if we turn to Ephesians 4: 10 we get a further word there. “He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the [p. 316] Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. We have already touched on that in the earlier readings, and it is the same thing that is found here in our chapter. That is to say, that Christ — a divine Person — can go beyond the heavens, but at the same time there is the statement in Ephesians 4 that the gifts were from there. That is to say, there were gifted persons and they are specified — apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, these also come from Christ in the created condition, so that we are very near to it. Just as we have often said as to the Godhead of Christ and what the assembly is; the assembly is very near to Godhead, but it is not Godhead. It is not as far as Godhead; it is Christ’s body, nevertheless, but it is just a creature. We have often said that — and these remarks also can be said, or dealt with, in the same way. So we have to seek to tax our minds, in dependence on the Holy Spirit, so that we may get understanding as to all these remarkable things, especially as they have to be treated as mysterious; because the assembly is said to be the mystery.
CS Would you say a further word to help us as to the part which the assembly has in the matter of headship.
JT I quoted from Ephesians 1, but, if you read it yourself, then, we will all hear it.
CS Ephesians 1: 22: “And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”.
JT ‘To’ there is in relation to the assembly — as head of the assembly. So that she has part in the headship.
HW Had Eve a part in the headship of Adam?
JT Just so; “Let them have dominion”, it says; that is, Adam and Eve. The word ‘them’ [p. 317] covers both — both Adam and Eve. The word ‘man’ covers both.
Ques Would you be free to say who it is that “fills all in all”, in that verse: “the fulness of him who fills all in all”. Is that God?
JT I would like the brethren to say just what they might think about that, because different things have been said about it. The passage runs properly from “the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. Now, the question is, who the ‘him’ is there — I would be glad to hear what the brethren say.
Ques Did you not say in Manchester that it was Christ? and I think also at other times you have said so.
JT It does seem so, too. That is what I believe, anyway.
CH Is it confirmed in verse 10 of chapter 4 of the same epistle? “He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things”. Is that the same expression?
JT Quite so. That confirms what we have said. “The fulness of him” is a word that would refer to Christ. “Fulness” is a peculiar word in that sense, and in the passage the context would show clearly, I think, that “him” refers to Christ.