MAIDSTONE - READING (2)
MAIDSTONE — READING (2)
JT It will be noticed that this epistle, beginning with the first chapter, is continuous almost entirely throughout, so that this second chapter begins, “For this reason we should give heed more abundantly to the things we have heard, lest in any way we should slip away”. That is, the instruction is sequential, and what is stressed now is the danger of the word being neglected. So it says, “For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard; God bearing, besides, witness with them to it, both by signs and wonders, and various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will?” This paragraph deals with the beginning of christianity, clearly, and how certain were turning aside. That is what is in mind almost entirely throughout the epistle, and hence the stress laid upon the things that have been heard. They were first spoken by the Lord and confirmed to the saints by those who heard Him. So the idea of hearing is stressed in view of the danger of giving up what we have heard, so that in the letters in Revelation we have stressed seven times by the Lord Himself, “He that has an ear, let him hear”. But we must not attach over-importance merely to what we hear, even although we may attend meetings like this, because it is not what we hear but what we appropriate and assimilate, and thus make good in our souls. What is to be observed, too, is that the types of Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus call attention to certain food that was [p. 240] useful and clean, and that should be eaten, reminding us that we may appropriate, in this sense, ourselves, that is brethren. We appropriate each other in the sense of obtaining food from each other, as is indicated in the types. We may keep company with each other and get wholesome food, but also it is possible we may keep company with people that are not in themselves pure and fit to be associated with.
EuR Is that why it is a matter of calling on the Lord out of a pure heart?
JT Just so.
NKM Would you just enlarge upon those three words you have alluded to, at the beginning of this chapter: “For this reason”.
JT The first chapter is in mind, and the second is just sequential to what is taught in the first. That is to say, the deity or Godhead of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all that enters into that are in mind. Certain things were stressed in the first chapter, and now the thought is to proceed in enforcing them in a practical sense, and I think we shall see as we proceed in chapter 2 that it affords much material, so to speak, for the service of God, because it abounds with references to the service of God. We have Christ Himself singing to the Father; praising the Father in the midst of the assembly, and that is where we are to carry on the service, and to praise God and to worship God. We have to remember that the assembly is the sphere of it, and it is therefore a question of purity, as already remarked.
AJG So would this “so great salvation” be in the assembly, and realised as we are fully committed to the service of God and all that it requires?
JT I was thinking of the assembly as a sphere of salvation. It has often been stressed, and even in Genesis 6 the thought is indicated typically that the assembly is a sphere of salvation, “By faith, Noah ... prepared an ark for the saving of his house”.
[p. 241] He prepared an ark for it; that is, in principle, the assembly, where the element of salvation is.
FCH Would the latter part of verse 4 bring in Paul and his ministry? It says, “Various acts of power, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will?”
JT These are elements that accompanied the testimony of those who had heard the Lord. What was indicated in chapter 1 gives force to what follows, “For this reason we should give heed more abundantly”, it says, “more abundantly”. It is not just to give heed, simply, but “more abundantly to the things which we have heard”. That is to say to the gospel that is preached, for Paul himself speaks of his gospel. The gospel that is preached is therefore allied to it, as it says, “For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation” — notice the superlative feature of the words, “Which, having had its commencement in being spoken of by the Lord”, that is, the Lord Jesus — “has been confirmed to us by those who have heard”. That is to say such as Peter and the eleven, because Paul was evidently the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. So that Peter and the eleven would be the ones that confirmed what the Lord had taught. Then it goes on: “For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come”; that is to say now we have the idea of the world to come brought in in connection with all this. It refers to the dispensation that is after this dispensation; this is the present dispensation, but the world to come refers to the coming dispensation.
CH Would the testimony to the greatness of the Person of the Son make the refusal of it the more serious?
JT Just so. That is the [p. 242] idea.
CH I was thinking of what you remarked this morning, at the beginning of the reading, that sin in Hebrews is regarded very seriously.
JT I think it is apostasy, and it might be said not to be forgiven. It says, “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation”. We are therefore dealing with the seriousness of so-called christianity that is about us, because the tendency of it is towards apostasy. Thessalonians points out that that is so, and that the apostasy must come first. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2, “Only there is he who restrains now until he be gone, and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming”. These are the terrible things that are coming. They are, we might say, imminent, and hence it says we are to take heed to ourselves, lest we might also fall away, for there is such a thing as falling away, unforgivable actions in turning away from the Lord. The Lord says in the gospel of John, “Will ye also go away?” and Peter answers immediately to the Lord that He had words of life eternal and they had no thought of turning away; the apostles had no such thought. Evidently therefore the apostles, as the leaders at the outset, set out what is fully in accord with loyalty to the Lord; and so it says in the types, “Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse”. In the days of David, the people took the ground that they were his and on his side, and that is the position today.
Ques Does the footnote to the expression, “of so great salvation”, in the New Translation, carry the two suggestions, firstly, that the assembly is the sphere of salvation, and secondly, that refusal of it leads to apostasy? The footnote is, ‘Not merely neglected when presented, but not cared [p. 243] for when, as here, they were nominally inside, making profession’.
JT Just so. That is a good comment, I am afraid that the brethren, including oneself, are somewhat slack in taking hold of the seriousness of the situation as it is. The Lord has said, “Behold, I come quickly”; the thing is therefore imminent.
PL The gravity of the last hour.
JT Just so.
AH In connection with the matter of loyalty to Christ, is it of import that that quotation you have made from 1 Chronicles 12, came from one who was clothed with the Spirit?
JT Very good. I would say that fully. At Pentecost, the Spirit came fully, not partially, and the word by Paul to the twelve men at Ephesus was, “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?” The word in John also is, “God gives not the Spirit by measure”, and I believe that means that those who receive It belong to the assembly. The thought of the full measure is wrapped up in the sending down by the Lord Jesus of the Holy Spirit. It is a full-measure matter. I suppose in the millennium it will not be full; it will be a lesser fulness than in the present dispensation.
HW The expression used there with regard to Amasai is unique almost, is it not? It is literally ‘The Spirit clothed him’.
JT Very good. The Lord told the disciples to remain in the city “till ye be clothed with power from on high”. The prodigal too was clothed, as it says, “Bring out the best robe and clothe him in it”. The very best was put upon him as clothing.
But the thought now is to enlarge on the service of God and how it comes out in the remaining part of the chapter; so it says, “For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak”. That is to say, the saints are [p. 244] to be characterised by speaking of the coming world. Of course, we have what is greatest now, even in the present world, for the fellowship that we are brought into is the greatest; the assembly is the greatest family there is in the universe. So it says here, “but one has testified somewhere, saying, What is man, that thou rememberest him, or son of man that thou visitest him? Thou hast made him some little inferior to the angels; thou hast crowned him with glory and honour, and hast set him over the works of thy hands; thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, he has left nothing unsubject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus”, and that is a precious thought; that is the present dispensation and shows how things are. It is a question of what we see, not what we shall see, but what we see now. “We see Jesus”. So that Stephen saw the Son of man standing at the right hand of God, but He is sitting at the right hand of God also.
FCH Why do you think it is referred to in that way as “somewhere”? Is it to awaken our interest in the Old Testament scriptures?
JT I think the idea is that we ought to know. The great difficulty we often have in such occasions as this, is that we do not know. We do not know the Scriptures well enough, but Paul says, “somewhere”. His remark challenges us as to how much we do know, and whether we can quote scripture when necessary. The Lord when He was tempted, as we all know, quoted scripture in His answer every time that Satan attacked. It is a great thing too, in our public meetings and, as I might say, all meetings, to quote scripture and quote it rightly and fully. If we cannot remember it, be sure and have the Bible and open it, and the right translation, which is the one we have, thank God!
[p. 245] Rem This quotation is from Psalm 8, the heading of which is, “To the chief Musician. Upon the Gittith” — a musical instrument. The word is feminine, from root meaning ‘vat’ or ‘press’.
JT That is all in keeping quotations what we have said already, about the quotations in this book, and the richness of them, as involving experience with God. It is not simply experience with the world, but experience with God, and so David is seen as “the sweet psalmist of Israel”, according to the last words of David. It occurs in the historical book where his last words are quoted, which is a very important matter too, a man like David having his last words quoted. It says, “These are the last words of David: ... the sweet psalmist of Israel”, 2 Samuel 23: 1.
WC It would appear that Job mentioned it before David. In Job 7: 17, 18 he says, “What is man, that thou makest much of him? and that thou settest thy heart upon him? And that thou visitest him every morning, triest him every moment?” Would that suggest that David had studied the book of Job?
JT Just so. It shows how the Scriptures confirm each other, and that is one of the greatest things to have in our minds. “Every scripture”, we often quote it, “is divinely inspired”, which implies that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, “and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work”. I do not know of any scripture more important than that, for brothers and sisters.
Ques Is “the world to come” introduced here to bring out the supremacy of Christ in relation to men? What is said in the Scriptures as to the world to come, as, for instance. Psalm 8 and 10, seems always to focus on the greatness of Christ. I wondered [p. 246] if that was to be in our minds in view of the service of God, as developed in this chapter later.
JT Therefore “the world to come”, I would say, is somewhat inferior to this world — I mean to this world in the sense of what it is on account of the Holy Spirit having been sent down. I believe that is what gives the great distinction to this world, so to speak, and by that I mean to this present dispensation. The great distinction is the gift of the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven, and that He is here according to the word, “and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to his will”. I believe the thing is to stress the dispensation, and that it is the dispensation of all this in this paragraph, and then, of course, as to “the world to come”, it is “the world to come”. It is not the world that is, but “the world to come”, and I think it will be inferior. Nevertheless, it is still a wonderful one, because it is the final phase of the present created world; it will be the final phase of the dispensations. The word in 1 Corinthians 10 is, “upon whom the ends of the ages are come”; the end of the dispensations has come upon us.
ACSP When it says, the “world which is to come, of which we speak”, is that primarily in our conversation together or would it include the preaching?
JT Oh! the preaching. The “we” is a sort of apostolic “we”, but at the same time I would say it evidently extends to all christians. Characteristically we should be speaking about it, for the wonderful things we are coming into, are the great theme of our conversation, “Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man’s heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”. I think all that brings out — at least, that is [p. 247] my thought — the character of the present dispensation, that the spiritual features of the world to come, which is another dispensation, are brought by the Spirit into the present.
WC Would you say another word about the “distributions of the Holy Spirit”? I wondered whether it suggested a universal system, the Spirit in every quarter of the earth, in the assembly.
JT Just so. The assembly is the sphere or the vessel of the Holy Spirit, so that it is available at all times, and, of course, there are those to whom God has given gift. They are the ones to be used, and are used, in the distribution of it. It is not that any one of us can give the Spirit, but, as Paul said to the Galatians, “He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit”. There is such a thing as that in ministry.
AJG Does it not make the assembly very great, that the service of God is maintained in it by the Holy Spirit, in this dispensation?
JT Just so, and in Galatians too, as I was trying to say, “He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit”, he who does it. It is abstract, but still it is evidently Paul himself. If you go to the Church of England you will not get anyone doing it there. It is not a question of attacking the systems around us, but we should see what there is around us and what we are exposed to in those systems. Every christian ought to be where the Spirit is distributed, for the Spirit of God is freely given.
RWS Which is now Europe and its outgoings?
JT That is right.
RWS There is not much in Asia, even though Paul had such marvellous results there.
JT Quite so. Philippi gives a clue as to where it began. Acts 16, I think, points to the time when the Spirit began to direct the apostle specifically in view of abiding results. The gospel was preached in [p. 248] Europe by the river, where Lydia was found, and others, where prayer was wont to be made.
PL “But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases”. Would that connect with the distributions?
JT Clearly. Paul was a great distributor, in that sense. Of course, the Lord was, because it was a question of living water. The Spirit is synonymous with the idea of living water, according to John 4. The Lord said to the woman, “The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life”. That points to the distribution of the Holy Spirit, and refers, of course, to christianity, not simply to the time when the Lord was here in the flesh. That is what Paul teaches us in the epistle to Corinth, and this epistle to the Hebrews, that it is christianity; and this epistle is to check or to correct what was current among the Jews, the Hebrews.
JSE Is it safe to say that in the present dispensation the Spirit ministers much more than what is just connected with the thought of the Messiah?
JT I would say so. It is Christ glorified. “The Spirit was not yet”, we are told, “because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. We do not have to say ‘given’, because it just says, He “was not yet”, as much as to say the Spirit was not known as active here or operative here fully, because Christ was not glorified. Everything waited the glorification of Christ, and hence the Lord says to the disciples, “Do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high”. That is to say, you are not to go until you are fully qualified, and the qualification is “power from on high”, not simply power in the sense in which the Lord gave it when He was here, but “power from on high”. Christianity refers to what is on high. It is a heavenly system, but the [p. 249] millennium will not be that. It will be, of course, a wonderful time, but it will not be equal to this dispensation. There will not be the Spirit given freely by way of distribution.
JSE Would that be why the world to come is introduced, so to speak, to make way for this greater thought in the many sons being brought to glory, and the service of God in the assembly in the later part of the chapter?
JT Very good. So that you will notice verse 11 refers to the ministry of Christ, but verse 10 refers to God Himself. “For it became him”, that is God, “for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings”. That is a greater thing really than verse 11, although verse 11 is the ministry of the Lord Jesus Himself to the Father, in regard of which he says, “Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. That is to say, it is the Lord’s own service, but verse 10 gives God’s own service. It is a time of bringing sons to glory, not children, but sons.
NKM Are sons a greater thought than brethren, here? The brethren of Christ?
JT I think they are, I think sonship is the greatest thought; it is individuals. The assembly is a vessel, but the sons are individuals and they are so in accord with Christ, because we have the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of sonship, shed abroad in our hearts. We are entirely according to Christ.
GP We were noticing this morning the expression “by whom” in chapter 1, “by whom also he made the worlds”, as referring to the mediatorship of Christ. Now we have it here in verse 10: “For it [p. 250] became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things”. Is that more the thought of God as source?
JT Well, quite so, although the mediatorial idea is here too, in verse 10 “by whom” is by someone, and it is God Himself. As a matter of fact, all this depended on the service of Christ. It is through His mediatorship and death that all this comes about, and the gift of the Spirit too is necessary for it.
AM Why is the thought of sufferings stressed here? It is not only death, but sufferings, “on account of the suffering of death” and then “make perfect ... through sufferings”.
JT I suppose it is the simple thought of the sufferings of Christ. “To you has been given”, it says, “as regards Christ, not only the believing on him, but the suffering”. It is a necessary thing to qualify us and make us like Christ, in spirit and character. Sufferings are needed to bring about the condition that qualifies us to be companions of Christ. Therefore sons are introduced to be His companions, “Thy God, has anointed thee with oil of gladness”, it says, “above thy companions”.
WF “The sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these”, is all that intended to give us substance for the service of God?
JT I think so. You will never get much if you do not suffer. The types would help us immensely in that sense, for example, the badgers’ skins and so forth, because we need all that to protect us in our sufferings. So that, in proceeding with our thought as to the service of God, we have the first idea of the sons being brought to glory, and then “both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one”. That is another thought that we need to get some clear idea of, the word “one” there. That is to say, they are “all of one”. Christ and ourselves are “all of one” — a peculiar way of putting things. Then it says, “for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren”. We are all of one; we are the same stock; as Rebecca was the same stock as Isaac. We often have that, Isaac and Rebecca were of the same stock, and hence Rebecca was suitable to be the bride to Isaac. Hence when she lifted up her eyes, she sees Isaac, but then Isaac lifted up his eyes, and what he sees is the camels. That is to say, we need to understand what carries us, how are we carried to Christ. Is it by presbyterianism, or any other ‘ism’, or is it by the Spirit of God? So the persons were carried to Isaac; and Isaac sees what is carrying them, and that is the idea typically of the Spirit of God. It was the servant of Abraham that did all the work of bringing Rebecca to Isaac, and that servant is typical of the Spirit of God, and we have to consider Him in what He says in order to get what the Spirit of God is saying to us now in recent times. We should understand the great place He has in connection with the idea of the bride — Christ and His bride. We need it according to Ephesians 5, as Paul says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”.
FCH Is the assembly regarded here as the vessel, or the sphere, in which all that is said of the Person of Christ in chapter 1 and His sufferings in chapter 2 are appreciated and treasured?
JT Just so. We talk of it. It is to be in keeping with what we have said, “the ... world ... to come, of which we speak”, but it is now Christ and the assembly we are to speak about, as Paul did: “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. How much do we speak of Him? What is current when we sit down after the meeting, say, in our houses? What do we speak of? Is it what we hear of in the assembly, and our heavenly calling? That is the thing that should test our hearts.
[p. 252] Ques Would you bring reproach in in connection with the sufferings of Christ? In 1 Peter 4: 14 it says, “If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you”.
JT Quite so, “To you has been given” too, it says, “as regards Christ, not only the believing on him, but the suffering for him also”, Philippians 1: 29. It is a privilege given to us.
Ques Would you say a word as to why verse 12 is a quotation from Psalm 22? and why it should come into that setting where the Lord’s inward feelings and sufferings are so fully brought out?
JT It is a feminine psalm. The heading of it is a peculiar heading, implying female conditions, and therefore, it is in the midst of that that the Lord is said here to have praised.
AJG The heading of the psalm is “Upon Aijeleth-Shahar”, which means ‘according to the hind of the morning’. Aijeleth being feminine. Would that suggest the agility of feminine affections in the assembly that the Lord uses?
JT Very good — agility. So we have Him “leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills”, in the Song of Songs.
AJG Is it not striking that this verse which is quoted, “I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises” is the first thing which the Spirit of Christ says in Psalm 22, after He is heard from the horns of the buffaloes, as though it was the first thought in His mind?
JT Would you be kind enough to read the psalm.
AJG Well, if we start at verse 18, He says: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But thou, Jehovah, be not far from me; O my strength, haste thee to help me.
[p. 253] Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog; save me from the lion’s mouth. Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee”.
JT I think that is most beautiful, and the link there with this passage in Hebrews is so full of meaning in the service of God. We ascend up to the idea of the assembly, in praising the Father, because the upgrade is the thing that we come into immediately or, almost immediately after the Lord’s supper is celebrated. We have the brethren first and then the sons come in after that, the sons brought to glory.
Ques Does the declaration of the Father’s name afford intelligent equipment in the assembly as the vessel of praise?
JT Well, objectively it does, for the declaration of the Father’s name is to be apprehended. The declaration of the Father’s name is, of course, by Christ Himself, and the declaration affords material, so to speak, for the assembly’s service. The material is really bound up in the idea of sons and then the idea of children: “I and the children which God has given me”. We have both the idea of sons and the idea of children. The idea of children is derivation, and the idea of sons is dignity and glory.
HPW Would you mind saying a word on that scripture, “I will declare thy name to my brethren”, which is, I suppose, a masculine thought, and then “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. I remember your telling me once years ago that you thought whenever the assembly is mentioned it is feminine in character.
JT I think it is.
HPW That has been a great help to me.
JT And the idea of brethren, as you say, is properly masculine, but we have to remember that [p. 254] sisters in the assembly have the place of sons, if they are viewed individually. If the sons are viewed severally they are individuals, the idea is individual. The sons brought to glory are individuals, because it is a question of what there is for God Himself, whereas the assembly is feminine because it is a question of what there is for Christ, “Christ, and ... the assembly”. That is the way I would work it out. I am thankful you mentioned it now, because you just state what I understand to be the truth.
AJG Would you say that God Himself has great pleasure in seeing the assembly before Him with Christ?
JT He does, surely. I think it is like the king, as Matthew says, who made a marriage for his son. That gives a suggestion of it, what God has in Christ and the assembly viewed together, because they are one.
HPW The thought of the man and the woman.
JT Just so.
Ques Is that to have a place in the service of God — this close link between Christ and the assembly?
JT Surely. You can see in Genesis 2, how much Jehovah thought of Adam and then thought of Eve. “It is not good that Man should be alone” — that is the masculine idea — “I will make him a helpmate, his like”. And then Jehovah puts Adam into a deep sleep, and while he was asleep He took a rib out from him and built a woman out of the rib. Of course, we have often spoken of the word “built”, but it ought to be kept in mind. It is the first time the word is found in Scripture, and it ought to be kept in mind that it applies to the assembly; that is to say, Jehovah built a woman. Then when the woman was built Jehovah brings her to Adam, and does not say anything; He just brings the woman to Adam, and then Adam speaks. He says, “This time ...” — [p. 255] meaning that Adam was thoughtful as to what God was to him, that He loved him, that His love was in it, and that He would make him a helpmate for him, his like. So he says, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man”. The words for ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are ‘Ish’ and ‘Ishshah’. That is the word, the original word clearly used, as though it came from the very mouth of God and the mouth of Adam, typical of Christ.
HPW Is that in a kind of way how things work out in the Supper?
JT I think so. We have been working on these lines for fifty years, and God has been helping us, and I believe the brethren are coming into the idea more and more. The service of God as thus developing out of the Lord’s supper is becoming more and more understood.
Rem So in the Canticles it says, “I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse”. That is, typically Christ comes to His own, in the Supper, and greets them as “my sister, my spouse”.
JT Exactly. So that a wife is a sister first, and marriage is in the Lord, not in any other way. The Lord Himself and the assembly is the great pattern of it.
Ques May I ask if you would say a word as to the expression in chapter 12, “the assembly of the firstborn” in relation to your comments as to this chapter 2 and as to the assembly being feminine?
JT I think the reference is to the levitical position, according to the type in Numbers. The firstborn were taken instead of the whole people of Israel, and then the Levites were taken instead of the firstborn. Every one of them is thus a firstborn, I think that is what is meant; and the reference in chapter 12 of this book is to eight things we are said to have come to. Perhaps we may speak of it on [p. 256] Monday, God willing. There are eight things we are said to have come to, and one of them is what you quote, “the assembly of the firstborn”. You might say ‘the firstborn ones’.
EuR Is it rather a matter there of the personnel of the assembly — the assembly of firstborn ones?
JT Quite so.
EuR Rather the persons that form it than the feminine thought.
JT Just so. We have come to that. There are eight things mentioned, and we have come to them, so that we can talk of them. They are all wonderful things, that we have come to.
JPH Would you mind saying a little as to the working out of the latter part of verse 12, “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”? In what way does the Lord do that?
JT I think He does it through us, through the saints. We are His body; we are “the Christ”, as it says in 1 Corinthians. “The Christ” includes not only the Lord Himself, but the assembly.
JPH Do you mean that normally the utterances of the brethren in the service of God would bring in such things as the Lord Himself would delight to say to God as Man?
JT I think so, in the sense that we are “the Christ”, that we are members of “the Christ”, that we all take part. “We are members of his body” it says, “we are of his flesh, and of his bones”. So, as I said, Eve was built, and she was capable of doing things. Adam said, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh”. So that what she would do would be representative of Adam. She would be, as it were, one with himself. It was Adam himself. That is the idea, I believe, and it is carried down to the New Testament, and is seen especially in the epistle to [p. 257] the Ephesians.
AJG So that having Christ’s own Spirit we are capable of His thoughts and feelings?
JT Just so. “So also is the Christ”.
Ques And to hear Him speak of His joys?
JT Just so. What joys He has in us! I am sure the Lord has real pleasure in us even now in this hall, and in all these assembly gatherings, the three-day gatherings especially. The Lord has, real pleasure in us, and God has too. That is the reason why I venture to say that this chapter is full of assembly suggestions.
AH Have our hymns a large part in this response?
JT I think they will have more part when we have hymns to the Spirit.
WC We sometimes say, ‘He leads the praise’. The scripture says “He sings”. Will you say a word about that?
JT The hymn is based on this chapter, of course, and in a certain sense the expression is true. But then, what we have said about being “all of one” is true too. Perhaps we do not much understand that, the idea of Isaac and Rebecca, and the injunction of Abraham as to not taking a wife other than his kindred. The idea of the divine kindred is necessary to the bride of Christ, to the assembly. She is so near to Deity, I might say with reverence, that she can be so spoken of as “his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. In that passage in the end of Ephesians 1 it says, “And gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”.
Ques Is the thought of kindred essential if we are to reach union?
JT Absolutely, I should say that with the utmost thoughtfulness, that it is absolutely so. That is to say, Genesis 24 carried into Ephesians, and carried into this [p. 258] epistle too.
ECM It says in the Canticles that “the time of singing is come”. Would you connect that with the Lord here in the midst of the assembly?
JT I think it is very nice to bring it up, but there is always the time of love too, as well; that synchronises with that.
ECM So that we join in with the Lord in His singing here.
JT Quite so, but He sings through us. We are His body, and He sings through His body.
NKM Would you say a word about the Sanctifier and the sanctified being all of one. I am referring particularly to the thought of sanctification.
JT The Lord sanctified Himself too. He says, “I sanctify myself for them”, John 17: 19. The Lord takes the same ground. It is complete separation to one point or to one thing, Christ and the assembly.
FCH Would that involve that we are sanctified for this very purpose?
JT One great idea pursued to this purpose.
ACSP Does the alacrity with which Rebecca sprang off the camel at the sight of Isaac suggest how effective the Spirit had been in making her conscious of her suitability?
JT Very good. She sprang off the camel; she thought of him, but then he lifted up his eyes and he saw the camels, that is to say, what carried her. I believe that is where the defect, with many of us, lies. We are not carried by the servant of Abraham, which refers to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the power for all these things. He is sent down to be this. As Abraham’s servant was sent to get Rebecca, so the Holy Spirit has been sent down here to get the assembly and to bring us to Christ, and He is going to take us up literally presently. It is very imminent. The assembly is the greatest thought that can be brought forward, outside of divine [p. 259] Persons. It is almost akin to divinity, but it is not that. It is a creature; and yet it is said to be His body. It is wonderful, I think!
WF Does this expression, “in the midst of the assembly” suggest that the service of God is not incidental to the assembly but that it occupies the chief central position?
JT Just so. The Lord has taken up the vessel at the moment and He is going to carry on the service, purposely, and for the definite end of pleasing God. The sons too are in keeping with that, in verse 10, and all the sisters — speaking simply — at that point should come into the idea of sonship, as well as come into the idea of the assembly, which is a collective thought. They are to come into the idea of sonship, because, as the Lord says, “they who are counted worthy to have part in that world, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”, Luke 20: 35, 36. That is our privilege.
JSE Is it not remarkable that in the epistle to the Galatians, where they were straying away from what is spiritual, Paul has to say to them, “There is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”.
JT Quite so. Very good. That confirms fully what I am saying, and I believe it is hardly touched much by us, especially by our sisters. The question is whether they have really laid hold of the idea that on the one hand they must enter into a change of individuality; that is, into the idea of sons brought to glory; and, on the other hand, they must merge into the idea of the assembly which is feminine. The brothers have to come to the feminine idea too, if we are to approach God in the [p. 260] assembly.
ECM Would you bring in Romans 8, “for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”?
JT Very good. That is where the leading comes, not from the hymns.
WC Would there be three thoughts, in which each brother and sister has part on the personal side? First the thought of ‘man’ in “What is man”, although that applies to Christ, I take it it is the being taken up by God for His praise; then sonship, connected with the thought of liberty; and priesthood, involving state. Would they combine in each person, and then the assembly be the corporate whole?
JT That brings up the whole question of change, and how we become changed. It even applies to the Lord Himself; He becomes something, and we become something. John says, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”. We become things in the assembly; and there is a great idea of change in it. In the service of God the power of the Spirit operating leads to the change, so that brothers and sisters are merged into one thing, either into sonship or into the assembly as a collective thought. I hope the brethren fully follow what I am saying, because I am sure it is the truth.
JSE Could another question be brought forward as to this word, “in the midst of the assembly” — would it be just at this point that the Lord Jesus takes on the service of singing God’s praises by way of His own in the joy of this matter of union?
JT I think He does. I think the Lord connects it with the thought of the body. All the singing is through the assembly in the sense of the body; He sings through us in the sense of the body.
Ques Might I ask (if it is not going back) about what the Lord says, “I will declare thy name to my brethren”. When does He do that? Is that done at the Supper, or in ministry?
JT He does not do it at all now; He has done it. It is one thing done. It is a question of declaration; “the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It is declaration, or revelation. The word ‘declare’ would be what has happened since He has gone to heaven and formed the assembly by the Spirit given, “The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. The thing is done.
EuR In connection with the ‘brethren’, we have the expression “all of one”. Is that how we merge after the breaking of bread, brothers and sisters taking account of themselves as brethren of Christ?
JT Just so. That comes about largely by the use of the mind, because in connection with the Supper it is, ‘this do for the calling of me to mind’. The mind is the first thing; it is not the heart, but the mind, the faculty, the power of action. I believe that is perhaps what is missing amongst us, the power of action in the mind, a renewed mind.
FCH There is a hymn we sometimes sing:
‘Now the Father’s name Thou tellest,
Joy is in Thine heart’.Do I gather that that is not quite correct?
JT I am not sure. I do not see that He is telling it now. I think it is a question of revelation, or declaration. It is what is done. The whole matter is done. But then another difficulty I would mention is the idea of understanding the word ‘abstract’. Things are said to be abstract, whereas they may not be actually reached. If they are reached in principle, that is what I would say is the abstract idea, and it enters largely into the service of God on the first day of the week, because the first day of the week has a peculiar character. It is a holy day; it is the Lord’s [p. 262] day, and I believe that it is desecrated so much that it is marred, even in the saints; they neglect the idea of the holiness of it. It is a holy day; it is a day kept for the Lord. It is called the Lord’s day, and it should not be interfered with, certainly not by His people. They should not mar it. I think things are hindered greatly because it is marred.
Ques Would the Lord’s words bear on that, “Thou are holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel”?
JT Just so.
Ques Do you think that from the Lord’s side the declaration of the Father’s name was completed in John 20, when He says, “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”?
JT I think that is the idea, and that is before He went up. After that the idea of ascension comes in, and He was ten days in heaven before He acted; so that, when He did act, the thing was completed. He sent down the Spirit. The Spirit took charge of everything and formed everything. The idea of forming things began when the Spirit came down.
JSE Is not the exercise as to the improvement of the hymn book altogether based on the way the brethren are being helped by the Spirit in relation to the truth itself? Does not the fact that in one hymn it says, ‘Now the Father’s name Thou tellest’ and in another it says, ‘The Father’s name Thou hast declared’ all show the necessity for us to apply ourselves more to the scriptures, and then get our hymns compiled on that basis?
JT Just so, I think we need help on accuracy, accuracy of quotation and accuracy of thought, too.
FCH There is something very affecting in what has been quoted from John 17, “I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it”. What [p. 263] comes in between those two statements is all the work and the sufferings of Christ.
JT Just so, only we have to keep the words, and we have to think over them. What does it mean? It is not so easy to give an account of it at a meeting like this, because we need to think over it. We have to consider things; as David said to Abigail, “Blessed be thy discernment”. We have to discern things, and especially what happens on the first day of the week, because the day has peculiar holiness, and we have more power on it than on other days.
RWS What was in your mind as to the saints marring the Lord’s day?
JT They have recourse to natural thoughts, and lightness too, and that sort of thing, so that the day is marred and hindered. The value of it is hindered.
ECM Would the discernment that you speak of be seen in Mary in John 20? It says she “comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her”.
JT Yes. She evidently carried the full import of what He said, not only the words but the import of them. She calls Him ‘Rabboni’, meaning that He was a Teacher. She had the spirit of things, and she carried that real message, in the spirit of it, that the Lord gave her to the disciples. He told her, moreover, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father”. He attaches great importance to the ascension, because the Holy Spirit did not come until He ascended.
JSE Is it not interesting that John 20 deals with the first day of the week from its early point to the evening without one reference to the ordinary circumstances of the disciples?
JT Well, I would say that.