MAIDSTONE - READING (1)
MAIDSTONE — READING (1)
JT It may be wise that we should be reminded of the character of the epistle to Hebrews. It is an epistle, as the title indicates, addressed to Jewish believers at the beginning of our dispensation. Those believers, however, were declining and weakening in the faith, and sin is treated very seriously — more seriously than in any of the other epistles, so that in Hebrews it really is not to be forgiven. It is thought that in view of all this the epistle should be considered, and we should have two readings today, one reading tomorrow and two readings on Monday, God willing. There is thus fairly good scope to consider the epistle, and it may be remarked that the quotations from the Old Testament (and there are relatively many) are largely from the book of Psalms. They are almost entirely so, either directly or indirectly, and this would remind us too of the need of experience. The book of Psalms may be taken to be that — experience with God, and we would, no doubt, all admit that we need that very much to cope with such a world as is about us. Another thing, of course, that enters into the Psalms is that it contains five books, and they are written in the main or collected by David, and he himself is said to be “the sweet psalmist of Israel”. So that, in view of these facts, we have now a most precious opportunity to consider what is available to us, not as Hebrews or as unregenerate people but as believers. The word ‘faith’ is greatly enlarged in the epistle to the Hebrews, and it is said there that “without faith it is impossible to please him”. And another thing that comes into Hebrews is the thought of salvation, so that it says, “We are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul”.
[p. 222] Salvation is in the realm of the assembly. Of course, it is in Christ, but it is in the realm of the assembly, and that would be in our minds too, in what we have to say about it.
AJG What is in mind in the epistle’s commencing with such a distinctive presentation of the glory of Christ?
JT I think there was the need of the Hebrew christians, and there is the need now of so-called professing christians, to understand fully and maintain in the soul, and in the assembly too, the deity of Christ. The Person of Christ is the main thought, because there is so much to the contrary, worldliness having deadened the feelings and affections of most of the so-called brethren abroad; so-called christians, because the word ‘christian’ is not applicable except in professing saints. No doubt in most of the denominations, including the Church of England, there are many christians, many whom we regard as christians, and rightly so, but there are many too who are not christians. There are those in the Church of England and other churches, so-called, such as Unitarians or Christian Scientists that are not christians. These terrible things are current, and hence there is the need of considering such a book as the epistle to the Hebrews. So the book opens — “God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in the person of the Son”. Now the word ‘end’ there, as you will see in the notes at the bottom of the page, refers to the days when the Messiah was to be introduced. The end is to lead up to the thought of the Messiah, that is to say, Christ, and that helps us as to the dispensation in which we are, that we are in the dispensation of faith, not that of the law. The Lord Jesus was born under the law, and He witnessed to the truth in it — as under it, but at the same time knowing that the [p. 223] end was near. But He came to die, and so in verse 3 it says: “having made by himself the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high ...” “Set himself down” — the Lord did it Himself; it is a question of His own power, that is, He is Himself God. The speaking, too, was “in Son”, the word being without the article infers that the Person speaking is God. Therefore I think it is perhaps needed that each of us should take to heart how we hold the truth of the Lord’s Person, and then all that enters into it in the sense of the divine service. For while He is God Himself, yet He is in the relation of Son; that is, it is a question of sonship. So that it is more necessary that we should be loyal to Him in regard to His personal deity. He has “set himself down”, it says, and the word ‘Himself’ implies that; it treats of Himself in His inmost feelings. But He is God; He has set Himself down; no one else except a divine Person could do that.
Ques Would that bring out the greatness of the way in which He has accomplished redemption?
JT Quite so. It says, “Having made by himself the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high”. He accomplished redemption and set Himself down, not in heaven simply, but at the right hand of the greatness on high; that is where power is. “All power has been given me”, He said, “in heaven and upon earth”. So He sat down after having accomplished redemption, that is to say, the purification of sins.
AJG Does that mean that the way is now clear for the bringing in of all God’s thoughts and there is power to make them effective?
JT That is the way I would look at it — power to make them effective. Redemption, of course, involves power because it involves the resurrection. Christ is raised from the dead by the glory of the [p. 224] Father. So there is power there. He has raised Himself, really. The Son is spoken of, and it is a question of Himself; what He does. Several times He refers to Himself as having such power, and it is a question of what He does in power.
NKM What would be the significance of the expression, “the greatness on high”?
JT The word ‘greatness’ is abstract, of course, and it carries with it all that we are speaking of. It is an action of a divine Person, that He goes there; He can take His place there. He is a divine Person — He is God Himself, the Son.
AH Is it the created realm or outside the created realm?
JT Both. He goes beyond the created realm, but He also operates in the created realm, because we are brought into it. So that both thoughts are involved. The uncreated realm is an infinite idea; it is abstract, but it is infinite, and is wholly beyond the reach of the natural mind. It is wonderful that we have part in these things, and Hebrews, in fact, treats of us as having part in it, as we shall see later. It is a question of what we are as having part in redemption, and we have a right that others have no claim to at all. We shall see that later, at the end of the book. The deity of Christ is the main thought running right through, and that is clearly in order to deliver us from what corresponds with judaism. What judaism was at the beginning, mere professing christianity is now. There are those who are real in it, but the thing as a public system is doomed according to the Scriptures. The apostasy is coming in and we are to be saved out of it, but it is coming upon all the world, to try those that are dwelling upon the earth. The Lord has promised that to Philadelphia, and Philadelphia represents undoubtedly the assembly in its present circumstances.
FCH [p. 225] Are there not two distinct lines of attack on the Person of Christ at the present time? One an attack on His deity, and the other an attack on the reality and excellence of His manhood.
JT Quite so; without His manhood there could be no redemption. As Paul said even as to the resurrection: “If Christ be not raised ... ye are yet in your sins”. We are left in our sins if Christ — the Son of man, the Lord Jesus — did not become Man to accomplish redemption. We should be yet, even at this minute, in our sins.
PL In the second book of Psalms, in the last one of them, the 72nd, it says, “Blessed be his glorious name for ever! and let the whole earth be filled with his glory! Amen, and Amen. The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended”. Is that finality?
JT Just so. That is, the needs of the saints are ended. There is no more need for prayer meetings, if that can be understood. When we are translated to heaven there is no need of prayer any more.
JSE Would it be opportune to ask for a little in relation to the statement, “by whom also he made the worlds”?
JT I think we had a little word about that in Edinburgh, which might be repeated here. The word ‘worlds’ is in the plural, of course. It is ‘worlds’, it is not ‘world’. We, of course, know one of them; we know of the one we are in now at the present time literally, but how many there are we do not know. Therefore it is an infinite thought, but it is a mediatorial thought too; God did it, but He did it by Christ. It is a mediatorial thought, but it is an infinite thought, because we are not told how many there are. We have to do with the worlds, which causes us to feel our littleness, for we can scarcely regard ourselves as in the divine realm at all, in that sense, that is to say viewed as this chapter gives it, because the chapter says: “Who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power”. When we deal with all these things we feel that we are not equal to what is presented; only Christ is equal to these wonderful things. So that it brings about the feeling of reverence and the feeling of littleness too in ourselves. We have to feel how very small we are as compared with the facts of this chapter.
Ques Could it all be expressed in one word — ‘infinite’?
JT Yes, but I think ‘inscrutable’ is a better word than ‘infinite’. It is inscrutable, that is to say, we are left to realise that we are outside the range of all these great things, and yet in a certain sense we are dependent on them and have part in them. In that certain sense, things should come before us so as to be intelligible to us, because it is a question of spiritual discernment as to these matters.
Ques In chapter 11 it says, “By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. What bearing would that have on our discernment?
JT Quite a good bearing. It is based on these facts that are before us now: Chapter 11 is towards the end of the book, but we are at the first chapter now, so that we have to get understanding about the facts of the first chapter in order to come to the eleventh chapter. Chapter 11 is to give an account of faith and to show how faith worked out in the Old Testament times and how it works out now. So that it says, at the end of the chapter, “They should not be made perfect without us”. That is to say, the Old Testament saints were not perfect, for redemption had not been accomplished. Redemption is required for perfection, in the sense in which the word [p. 227] is used.
JSE Are you feeling that there is a necessity amongst us for more simple bowing to divine assertions?
JT I go with that, fully.
JSE And when that is a settled matter, does it make room for the Spirit to bring in the matter of our apprehension?
JT I think that is the great point that God has caused to come to light and to come into our minds recently, because the Spirit searches the depths of God. It is “the depths”; He is God Himself, and He knows everything. Hence we have just to understand and accept that things are inscrutable, but we have to bow to them, knowing they are there, although they are beyond us. But knowing they are there, that is a great point too. It tends to keep us in the realm of intelligence, and the more intelligence we have the more we want, and the more we get if we want it. John contemplates that we know all things because we have the Spirit, the unction. By the unction even the little children, in the sense John speaks of them, know all things.
JSE Does your reference to man being relatively recent in the creation lay the road open in our minds for this contrast of the Son with angels?
JT I think God reserved the great thoughts attaching to man, in view of the Lord Jesus coming in. He reserved man for His greatest thoughts; and the Son having become Man, that explains it all. If the Son had not become Man, we should be still unredeemed, but the Son of God having come, and redemption having been accomplished, we are in the day of the Spirit, and we know all things. That could not be said in the Old Testament time. The brethren, therefore, would do well to be sure that they have the Spirit, and that they recognise Him in all the fulness in which He is presenting Himself during the current [p. 228] time.
CH Are there then certain things which we apprehend without being able to compass them?
JT Very good, ‘Comprehend’ is a greater thought than ‘apprehend’.
Ques As to the expression, “the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance” — is that inscrutable?
JT It is, and there is a note to the word ‘substance’ that helps us. It indicates that the essential being of God is in mind in the word ‘substance’ here. It is said of the Son, “whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”. The reference is to what Christ is as the expression of the divine substance. It is not ‘person’ but ‘essential being’; that is to say, Christ is in the glory the expression of the essential being of God, and He could only be that owing to the fact that He is God Himself. As John’s epistle says: “He is the true God and eternal life”. The true God is the greatest thought, of course. There could not be anything greater than the true God.
WmH Would the suggestion of the “expression of his substance” bring what God is within our range morally?
JT ‘Within our range morally’, meaning that there is distance. You think of God, and it says, “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It would mean there that He is within our range in that sense; also according to Matthew 5 certain ones are said to see God. The meaning, therefore, must be, not of seeing His essential being, but the expression of it in One, who, though in manhood, is Himself God.
AMP Would these expressions be [p. 229] intended to induce worship?
JT They are intended to induce worship. The scripture says, “He is thy Lord, and worship thou him”. That ‘Him’ refers to Christ, but whether it be God the Father, or the Son, or the Spirit. All are the Object of worship. All have their part in the worship, and anyone that denies that the Spirit of God is to be worshipped denies the truth.
Ques Would it be right to say that the created realm has been brought into being for the glory of Christ and that God might be fully expressed in Him?
JT Well, the glory of creation, of course, comes very short of the full thought of the glory — the expression of the Father’s glory. It says here: “By whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”. That is God Himself, but there is some outlet in what we have in the word used here, “Whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made by himself the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high, taking a place by so much better than the angels, as he inherits a name more excellent than they”. So that the divine Beings are in mind now and it is a question of how far we can apprehend Them. The word ‘apprehend’ has been used and I believe it is a good word to use, because it keeps us in our place. We cannot undertake to say that we comprehend the divine Beings; we do not, it is beyond us.
JSE I think the word ‘outlet’ will help us as we proceed with this chapter, because there could be no outlet apart from this Person, the Son?
JT There must be the mediatorial link between the divine and the creature, or there can be no link [p. 230] at all, and I believe that mediatorial link will go on into eternity. I fully believe that when we are changed and taken up into heaven and made like Christ, the mediatorial link will continue.
CH Because God will remain God, and the creature will remain the creature, however blessed.
JT Just so.
Ques Does that truth in Timothy therefore fit in: “The mediator of God and men one”.
JT Just so — “the man Christ Jesus”. That links it up with the Lord being Man, not that I would exclude the conditions before the incarnation, because He was mediator then too. God made the worlds by Him — that is mediatorship. He made the worlds, the Lord Jesus brought the world that we are in into being on the ground of mediatorship — it was His doing.
AW So His mediatorship is not simply based on His incarnation.
JT Not simply. I wonder if the brethren would be kind enough to say what they think about that, because it is a time for learning. We are all here now and we are to learn from each other. There is not much to be gained in meetings such as this unless we say what we think of. If things are left unsaid, or unacknowledged, then we do not come to the real facts.
JSE May I just remind the brethren of what was presented to us at Croydon, in the need for distinguishing between the word ‘mediatorial’ and the actual word ‘mediator’, which occurs in relation to Christ relative to God and men. Was it not said there that the Spirit has His place in mediatorial service, and does that not help us in the understanding of this word, “By whom also he made the worlds”?
JT Quite so. The three divine Beings are all in it. It is a question of whether we can discern, at [p. 231] any given time, who is speaking, which of the divine Persons is speaking, or whether They are all implied in what is said. So that it is a learning time, as I said, and the point is that we should learn and seek to learn from one another.
RWS It says in Job: “By his Spirit the heavens are adorned”, Job 26: 13.
JT Very good; that was a mediatorial service.
Ques Is it true that from the outset of divine activities the incarnation was in view, and that the Persons of the Godhead acted in the order in which They have come out since?
JT Could you quote a scripture to show what you are speaking about?
Rem I was thinking of the one we were on. “By whom also he made the worlds”, and then “by his spirit he hath garnished the heavens”, as though the Son and the Spirit were active in a mediatorial way from the outset in view of the incarnation.
JT The Son was not active as Son.
Rem Not as Son — no.
JT Because He comes in in time — “this day have I begotten thee” — which shows that He did not have part in the creation in that sense as Son. He has part in other things, but not in the sense of Son.
HW Have you in mind that the One who became Son acted in a mediatorial way?
JT That is right. The expression ‘became’ is right, according to John 1. “The Word became flesh”. It was not that He was always flesh, but He became it — “and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory)”, that is, as in flesh, and that is the point of christianity, and all that enters into the divine counsels in manhood and in relation to the earth.
WC In 1 Peter 1: 19, it says, “By precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without [p. 232] spot, the blood of Christ, foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world”. Would that confirm what has been said as to mediatorship not being based simply on the incarnation?
JT It is a question of foreknowledge. Quite so. That is to say, Christ was apprehended and spoken of in the divine counsels in view of His Manhood, “Lo, I come”, He says, “to do, O God, thy will”. That is anticipative. That is before He became Man, but He was anticipating it.
FCH Would you say a word as to the quotation from Psalm 2? It seems to be one divine Person speaking to Another, does it not? It says, “I will declare the decree; Jehovah hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee”.
JT Quite so. That is, the incarnation is in view, because “this day” refers to time. Many in earlier days, in connection with the trouble we have had on the point of sonship, would claim that it did not refer to time but that it referred to eternity, whereas it did not. It refers to time — “this day” refers to time.
FCH And would the One speaking to the Other include the peculiar pleasure of both Persons?
JT That is right, I would say that. So it is precious for each and all of us to ponder these communications between the Father and the Son, and any communications that are available to us by the Spirit between each other, because divine knowledge is in the assembly — it is in us. It has been placed there, of course, for it is not there inherently, but, at the same time, it is in it. That is a fact, and therefore we have all come to the idea of intelligence.
AJG Is that not borne out by this very chapter, that the truth of the Person of Christ is built up from what is drawn from what was in the souls of God’s people and expressed in the [p. 233] Psalms?
JT Very good. That is just what I thought. How precious the Psalms are! There are five books, corresponding, we might say, to the Pentateuch, because there is no doubt that there is a relation between the two; it is a question of Moses and David. David is the sweet psalmist of Israel, whereas Moses is the man that God raised up to set out the truth of the creation.
AJG Would you say that the glories that are indicated in all these quotations which are brought in in this chapter, together constitute the name more excellent than that of angels?
JT Very good. Perhaps you will enlarge on that.
AJG It says, “as he inherits a name more excellent than they”, that is, the angels. I thought perhaps the Spirit of God was stressing the exceeding greatness of christianity, and that the quotations together constitute the name.
JT We do not know when angels were created, nor how many of them were created. Then there are other suggestions too, such as the seraphim and the cherubim, which are just symbols. So that it is well to have all these things in mind at a time like this when we are drawing near to the appearing, so that we might be living in the realm of the appearing anticipatively, and learn to think anticipatively of what is coming in. We all ought to be in these things, and be accustomed to the thought of angels and what they are, and where they come in in the service of God, for angelic service is an immense service. This chapter says, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?”. So that they are to be servants to us, but they are wonderful servants to God too. They were serving God before, for it says “all the sons of God shouted for joy”. We can say but very little as to them; their beings are inscrutable, as we are saying, but, at the same time, they are available [p. 234] to us for service, and we know this from the last verse of this chapter. We might well look into it carefully as we proceed with the chapter.
Rem They are called on here to worship the Son: “Let all God’s angels worship him”.
JT Showing the Son is a divine Person — the object of worship, but the angels are not, and so the angel says to John, “Worship God”.
Rem Would you say a word as to the character of the angelic service for the heirs of salvation.
JT You can see it in what is said here. There is a host of things mentioned in the Scriptures old and new. Take Cornelius’ experience, an angel stood by him, and told him about certain things that involved the gentiles coming into blessing as well as the Jews. That is an illustration of what angelic service is, and that is a great service, and I believe it goes on all the time although we do not notice it. Things happen that perhaps we do not know about or that we do not understand; but the angels are behind it, they are doing it, and their service can be counted on too.
HW Did Hezekiah count on the service of angels according to the record in Isaiah 37? One angel came in, and one hundred and eighty five thousand people were destroyed by him.
JT Quite so. Now we are touching on this point of the Lord’s deity, and in the afternoon we hope that we shall take the second chapter which will lead us to man. It is a question now, as we have said, of the Lord’s deity, which is a great matter and greatly needed to be attended to by each of us so that we should be in the power of it. There are not three Gods, there is only one God. So that if One divine Person speaks to Another, in the mediatorial office, that would be that the Lord Jesus is in mind and He is acting mediatorially and yet in the action He is God. We do not therefore use the word ‘God’ in the same sentence or in the same breath as it were. “God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony to be rendered in its own times” — notice that — “in its own times”. Divine Persons have been pleased to take relative positions — The Father is the supreme One, and the Son and the Spirit have taken lower places; They have taken them to become Mediators of certain services, but “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” is one name, not three names, but one name.
Ques Is the word “the age of the age” in verse 8 millennial or does it allude to the eternal state?
JT It is millennial. The word ‘age’ refers to the millennial, always. So as we have said before, “the end of these days”, in verse 2, refers to the days of the Messiah, and the Messiah would bring in the millennial days, which would be, as far as we can see, a thousand years. There is no evidence that Israel as such will go into the eternal state.
WF His name, according to Isaiah 9, is “Father of Eternity” or ‘Father of the age’.
JT That is the Lord Jesus; that is what is said of Him; He is the Messiah there. He introduces the millennium, which is a question of time. It is not eternity, but a question of time.
AJG You said just now that Israel would not go into eternity. Is your thought that Israel and the other nations simply become merged in the thought of men in eternity?
JT I think so. They must be changed; we must be changed from our present condition of flesh and blood; that must come to an end, because “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom”. So there must be change, and God is ready to make that change when He wishes; it is a question of [p. 236] time. We are changed, and we are said to be changed by the Spirit, according to Romans 8, verse 11.
AJG But that refers to the saints of today, does it not, and the change that will take place when the Lord comes for us, but you were speaking a moment ago of Israel at the end of the millennium. Will there not need to be a change somewhat similar in character in relation to Israel at that time?
JT Quite so; similar in character. God will know how to do it, for everything must be reconciled to the mind of God. There will be no discrepancies at all, so that when the time comes God will change our mortal bodies, but then the dead in Christ shall be changed too, for it says, “The dead in Christ shall rise first”. They will come into bodies of resurrection, bodies like Christ’s. That is as plain as anything can be as taught in Scripture.
SJH Does the last verse of Ephesians 3 refer to the millennium or to eternity? “All generations of the age of ages”.
JT I would say it is the eternal thought in Ephesians. The epistle to the Ephesians leads up to the eternal thought of “all generations of the age of ages”. So what they may be as to their state, or the like, physically is another matter. It is a question of generations, and every family, in the heavens and on earth, it says in the same chapter, is named of the Father.
HWR When it says “the tabernacle of God is with men”, is the assembly included in the title, ‘men’?
JT Very likely. The word ‘man’ of course, governs the passage. The word is ‘men’, it is not angels, and so in John 1 it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... In him was life, and the life was the light of men”. It is not angels, not Israel, but men. He is the light of men. That is the idea in Revelation 21 too, “the tabernacle of God is with men”, showing the place man has in the mind of God.
GP Is there some significance in the fact that it speaks in verse 2 of the Son — “by whom also he made the worlds” and then in verse 10, “And, Thou in the beginning, Lord, hast founded the earth, and works of thy hands are the heavens”. Is there any significance in the change from the thought of Son to the thought of Lord?
JT How does Psalm 102 read? Is it ‘Jehovah’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Adonai’ — which is it?
AJG It says, “He weakened my strength in the way, he shortened my days. I said, My God, take me not away in the midst of my days! ... Thy years are from generation to generation. Of old hast thou founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands, they shall perish ...”
JT What is the preceding pronoun in the Psalm?
AJG Well, verse 12 says, “But thou, Jehovah ...”
JT Well, that is ‘Jehovah’ there — the word ‘Lord’ is Jehovah there properly.
EuR Leading on to “Thou art the same” which is a name of God in the Old Testament.
JT The word ‘Same’ is a name of God, and the word ‘Jealous’ is a name of God. We are entitled to use all these names, because we understand the meaning of them from the original of the Old Testament and the New Testament. So that we can use them, you might say, intelligently.
EuR They apply to the Son here to impress us with His deity.
JT Just so, and to impress us with the whole chapter, because the quotations generally are from the Psalms.
AH Would you say a word now about verse 9? In view of what you have been bringing before us as [p. 238] to the supreme glory of this blessed Person, I wondered whether this might not have a deep bearing on us, as to loving righteousness and hating lawlessness.
JT Quite so, “Thou hast loved righteousness and hast hated lawlessness”, that is to say God is speaking of His beloved Son in a mediatorial position, and as thoroughly equal to it, “Thou hast loved righteousness and hast hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy companions”. It is to distinguish the Lord Jesus. As we were saying, these Psalms quoted here refer to certain days — the days of the Messiah — but the Messiah had not yet come; they are anticipative of the coming in of the Messiah.
PL So that He reaches His exaltation in a path of moral worth.
JT That is right — in a path of moral worth; that is the idea exactly.