HAMPTON - READING
HAMPTON — READING
Hebrews 8: 10 - 13; Hebrews 9: 6 - 28
JT The brethren will observe that certain passages in these chapters have been omitted, because they refer to the old covenant; we do not want to speak of that now, but to get the import of the epistle, leaving the old covenant as most here understand what that refers to, and to get the meaning of the new covenant.
Now let us apply ourselves to verses 10 - 13 of chapter 8, “Because this is the covenant that I will covenant to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: Giving my laws into their mind, I will write them also upon their hearts; and I will be to them for God, and they shall be to me for people. And they shall not teach each his fellow-citizen, and each his brother, saying, Know the Lord; because all shall know me in themselves, from the little one among them unto the great among them. Because I will be merciful to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more. In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged is near disappearing”. The old covenant it is said is near disappearing, but we are connected with real christianity. Paul no doubt being the writer of this epistle had the full truth in mind in what he wrote.
AH Is there a contrast in verse 6 of chapter 8, “Mediator of a better covenant, which is established on the footing of better promises”, and verse 6 of chapter 9, “Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests enter at all times, accomplishing the services”?
JT Just so. In that verse in chapter 8 Paul is dealing with the new covenant, whereas in chapter 9 [p. 319] verse 6, it is an allusion to the first tabernacle; that is, what was said to be the holy place, into which the priest entered at all times; then he goes on to say, “The Holy Spirit shewing this, that the way of the holy of holies has not yet been made manifest while as yet the first tabernacle has its standing”. All then was “imposed until the time of setting things right” (verse 10). In verse 11 we come to the real point before us, “But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand” — notice that — “(that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption”. What a remarkable passage for our minds to rest upon: “eternal”, a word peculiarly used in this book.
Ques Is what is said here intended to lay the basis for christianity in the minds of the Hebrews?
JT That is the right word. Contrasting Christ’s one offering with the oft-repeated Old Testament offerings.
ESH Is Leviticus 16 the type? It speaks of Aaron entering the holiest. He went in only once a year, but Christ has gone in having obtained eternal redemption.
JT That is the basic word — redemption — Christ has obtained eternal redemption.
Rem Christ having come we should be engaged with the better things.
JT Yes, better things, not old things. The better things refer to what is heavenly, that is, the heavenly side of the truth, which is christianity, as it says in verse 24, “For the Christ is not entered into holy places made with hand, figures, of the true, but into heaven itself”. It is the physical heavens that are referred to, we have the first, second and third heavens, but “heaven itself” is a mysterious thought.
[p. 320] It is where Christ is now. According to Acts 1: 9, “a cloud received him out of their sight”; He was concealed by a cloud, what happened after that we do not know, but He will come again and “every eye shall see him” (Revelation 1: 7); that is what we are looking for.
Ques Can you help as to the force of chapter 9 verse 7?
JT It alludes to what marked the tabernacle; the first tabernacle refers to the holy place, and the second to the holiest of all. In chapter 10, verse 19 we are in the spiritual thing which is christianity, though the typical language of the literal thing is used. We have to ponder over the truth, as to the cloud receiving Him out of sight, and how He reached where He is now.
Rem In this epistle it is shown that the way into the holiest, the presence of God, is open for those whose sins are remembered no more.
JT We have the new covenant referred to there in chapter 10 and in 1 Corinthians 11 also; the question is whether it should be connected with the Lord’s supper. The Lord has connected it with it Himself.
Rem He would take us from old ground and relationships in our minds and hearts, and establish us in new relationship; “he has made the first old”, Hebrews 8: 13.
JT Just so.
ESH Is the force of the new covenant applied spiritually to give us liberty to enter the holiest?
JT That is it. We have to differentiate as to the truth and see in christianity the force of the word, ‘new’. Things are spoken of as new, and we have to compare spiritual with spiritual, and see how the new covenant applies to us.
NKM The new covenant was literally made with the [p. 321] house of Israel.
JT Just so.
ESH In 2 Corinthians 3: 18, where it speaks of looking on the glory of the Lord, is not that really the holiest?
JT Very good. We have to understand what the holiest means. It is the real presence of God, and is understood by the spiritual.
Ques Do we understand the matter from the typical side first before the spiritual as seen in Ephesians, where the saints are spoken of as quickened together with Christ?
JT That is spiritual. There is what the natural mind, and also the spiritual mind, has to consider in regard of the heavens. We have to consider where the heavens are. In chapter 1 it is said that God made the worlds by Christ. We are not told how many there are.
Ques Is it said to enhance the greatness of the Person in our understandings?
JT Just so, but we cannot neglect the natural side, the heaven that we can see, and we do not see very far with our natural sight.
NKM Do you think if we had that more before us, it would enhance the spiritual side?
JT The spiritual side has to be understood.
ESH He made all things; does that imply He used the worlds?
JT Certainly.
ESH He has gone above all heavens. It is wonderful, and enhances the greatness of God and of Christ.
JT Genesis 1 does not tell us how many worlds there are, ‘Expanse’ is the word used, meaning a wide place for operations.
HF Stephen in Acts 7 fixed his eyes on heaven.
JT Very good, he beheld the heavens opened — what did he see? He saw the Son of man. How would he explain it if he were here this afternoon?
[p. 322] We need to depend on the Holy Spirit who is in us to understand these things. Then again it says, “No one has seen God at any time”, John 1: 18.
HH Is it to make us more acquainted with elevation?
JT To make us more acquainted with the Scriptures. How many of us read carefully, and understand what they mean?
ATG What is the significance of the eternal covenant? Hebrews 13: 20.
JT The word ‘eternal’ means there is nothing after it as a covenant. There is so much we have not looked into ourselves, and so much we do not look into.
HH The Hebrews had not seen what the Holy Spirit had showed.
JT Very striking — what the Holy Spirit shows, what He does and says is mentioned several times in this book.
TSE What about verse 24, as to heaven itself followed by the expression, “to appear before the face of God for us”? Is it to show the impossibility of entrance before? “Thou canst not see my face; ... and live”. Christ has entered into heaven itself. He is there now before God’s face for us.
JT In 2 Corinthians 4: 6 we have a similar expression, “in the face of Jesus Christ”. What is seen in the face of Jesus Christ? Here it is the face of God, but in Corinthians it is what we may see; there is so much we could see but do not see.
JSE Is not the power of the Spirit needed? It is not the face of Jesus as He appeared to men.
JT There is what may be seen in the literal firmament, the expanse of Genesis 1: 6, according to Psalm 19, but now it is “the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”. It is spiritually now, and reflected in our hearts.
[p. 323] Rem What we are dealing with is what is in our hearts, put there by the Spirit.
JT In 2 Corinthians, chapter 3, Paul says, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. So that transformation should first be in our hearts, and then shine out to others.
Ques Is it the reflection of what is in the presence of God that shines out?
JT Very good. If we put all the thoughts together, we see what is shining, first in our hearts, and then shining out for others to get the good of it. The shining is there, shining forth in the face of Jesus Christ.
Ques What is the present thought of the holy of holies?
JT “Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests enter at all times, accomplishing the services; but into the second, the high priest only, once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people, the Holy Spirit shewing this”. How did He do it? By types and shadows. But now see verse 11. “But Christ being come” — now we are getting the reality — “high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood”. Let us think of that: “Has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption”, and so on. We have the word ‘eternal’ several times. It may apply principally to Israel, it is a spiritual thought, and does not necessarily mean continuance, but that there is nothing after it. If we want to find out what goes beyond it, we shall have to go to Ephesians.
[p. 324] Rem Hebrews 9 gives the full bearing of the death of Jesus. There is hardly a chapter in the New Testament like it in this respect.
JT Yes; it would be well to read from verse 9 again — “The which is an image for the present time, according to which both gifts and sacrifices, unable to perfect as to conscience him that worshipped, are offered, consisting only of meats and drinks and divers washings, ordinances of flesh, imposed until the time of setting things right”, that time is christianity. “But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand”, — the spiritual side — “(that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies”, that is the presence of God, known in the power of the Spirit, and what we have on the first day of the week, beginning with the Lord’s supper. If we can only see how this comes into the service of God, beginning with the Lord’s supper, we shall all get help. Then following that in the service we go on to the Father.
AH In chapter 8: 2, we have, “Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”. Would that be realised when the saints assemble for the service of God each first day of the week?
JT Yes. The sanctuary is there as we sit around the Lord’s supper, and the service of God begins to operate, and the sisters take on the matter of sonship, the same as the brothers.
NKM In chapter 8: 2 it says, “Which the Lord has pitched and not man”; when was that?
JT The Lord there would refer back to Jehovah and it should be understood in christianity as referring to God, it is not the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus in this passage is the Minister [p. 325] of the sanctuary.
Ques Was the pitching of the tabernacle seen at Pentecost?
JT Just so, it was there.
JSE It is all to get us into the joy of what is fully established in christianity, the system itself and all the service that goes with it and the features of the assembly, and what belongs to it.
JT You must bring in the saints, one hundred and twenty people with names, as mentioned in Acts 1; that is the beginning of it, and if you know them you are glad to see them. The Lord can see them when He comes in. The assembly is made up of the saints.
Ques Every one having direct access to God’s presence — “having ... boldness for entering into the holy of holies”, and that belongs to no other family but the assembly, would you say?
JT Just so, we wonder at it. It is all spiritual, and we are to make room for the Spirit, who is in us and with us.
AM Does not the tabernacle set out unity in a wonderful way? Then as the service proceeds, the unity becomes more evident.
JT Well, a hundred known persons together, some brothers and some sisters, each a vessel of the Spirit of God who is there to act in us and for us. If you think of the assembly, something must happen when the Lord Jesus comes in. You must get the thought of the saints, and not figures as seen in Hebrews which are quoted from Exodus. We are to dismiss the old thing and get at the reality of what is in the saints.
Ques Is it seen in Acts 20, “We being assembled”?
JT Just so.
Rem No longer types but the thing itself.
JT We have to work the truth out in view of eternal conditions.
[p. 326] Rem The Supper should be a very dignified occasion, the matter of our deportment and so on entering into it.
JT That is what you get in Acts 2, verse 4, “They ... began to speak with other tongues”, that is, they became intelligible to one another — realistic — we have to leave types and shadows and come to realities. First we read of three thousand and then five thousand, all of them saints. Let us try to get our minds fixed on the saints and the Holy Spirit operating in them, and in us, in our bodies which are temple of the Holy Spirit.
Rem We should experience these operations of the Spirit in the assembly.
JT Yes. Ephesians 2: 6 reads, “And has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. That is our place; it is to be known by the Spirit now. Stephen saw the Lord Jesus standing, but here in Ephesians we are seen sitting down.
AH What does it mean? In the old economy no one sat down.
JT Not even the High Priest. We have to get the thing spiritually. We need to be born again, indeed we need more than the new birth, we have the Holy Spirit in us, and He affects us, so that as entering into God’s presence our faces begin to shine.
AH Is the reference to “his own blood” and “an eternal redemption” intended to affect our hearts?
JT Yes, for redemption was not possible in any other way.
Rem It is the greatest expression of love — divine love claiming its own property.
JT Yes, and so the blood is brought in — “precious blood”, Peter says.
ESH Does “by his own blood” link up with the new covenant in His blood?
JT [p. 327] It refers to the fact that He died. The spear of the soldier brought forth the blood — without blood-shedding there is no remission.
AH Can you give us a word on verse 24 to the end of chapter 9?
JT We read, “For the Christ is not entered into holy places made with hand, figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: nor in order that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy places every year with blood not his own; since he had then been obliged often to suffer from the foundation of the world. But now once in the consummation of the ages” — what phraseology! — how far back in the ages can we go?
Ques Does “once” only refer to Christ?
JT Yes, “But now once in the consummation of the ages” the ‘once’ is over against the numberless times things were done in Old Testament period. It is a beautiful passage, and so we read, “Christ ... shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation”. He will appear and we shall see Him, and the question is whether we love His appearing; what a glorious sight it will be. He will come out of heaven; we have it in the words of our hymn, ‘We greet the day that’s nearing’ (200:4).
AH No more questions left to resolve?
JT No.
Ques Do we greet Him in that light at the Supper?
JT We do. So according to 2 Corinthians 3: 18, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face”. That is a spiritual matter now, but we look for Him to appear soon according to this, verse 28.
Ques In verse 24, “To appear before the face of God for us”, is the point, not exactly the efficacy of the sacrifice or any thought of sin, but [p. 328] our having liberty in the presence of God, where Christ now appears?
JT Yes, and another thing, John says, “No one has seen God at any time”, but in Matthew 5 it says the pure in heart shall see God, so we have to understand this, and also how the children’s angels always behold the face of the Father (Matthew 18: 10). The Lord says, “My Father” — it is wonderful that the children should be represented there.
Rem The expression, “my Father”, is very impressive.
JT Just so, “No one”, as John says, “has seen God at any time”, but there is some sense in which we can see and we have to find it out.
Rem Our establishment in the divine system is really in the knowledge of God. “All, shall know me in themselves, from the little one among them, unto the great among them”, Hebrews 8: 11.