MANCHESTER - READING (1)
MANCHESTER — READING (1)
JT This chapter has been before some of us lately, and with profit, but largely to develop out of it the import of the Lord’s supper. This is in mind too now, only what is prominent at the moment is the idea of headship. The apostle brings himself forward and we cannot ignore the fact that he has been taken up by the Lord to develop this thought of the assembly. He did not fail to do so, for he is the one to do it, according to his word in the epistle to the Ephesians, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. What is in mind now is to bring out the thought of headship in Christ and how it should develop in the working out of the Lord’s supper. It would seem as if the Lord’s supper is the initial idea in the service of God, and it may be remarked that the first day of the week has become increasingly valuable in connection with the Lord’s supper and the service of God. All that follows in every week generally contributes to the service of God so that the brethren have come to regard it in this way. We have the service of God in the morning, and the scriptures read in the afternoon with a view to developing the truth and then the gospel preached in the evening. The first day of the week thus has a peculiar place as we all know in regard to the whole system of service. We commence with the Lord’s supper and the service of God follows, so that the Father is approached and worshipped. The worship of God has thus acquired its proper place, and also what belongs to it, such as hymns, have acquired [p. 2] their own place. Then too one believes that more and more there is real concern, at the present time, as to the Spirit and the place He should have. So that the service of the Spirit is not at all relegated in the service of God; it has its own place so that we have such thoughts as “Abba, Father”, which would be by the Spirit and that belongs properly to the worship of the Father. I thought it well to lay out a little what is in mind both for this meeting and for the evening meeting. It may be remarked too that the types, as we properly call them, have acquired a great place, and such a place as they have not had earlier, so far as I can discern, and one believes the brethren would do well to use them, because they are intended to be used. Chapter 10 of this epistle refers to them. In fact in chapter 10 the cup is placed before the bread, but the order is the bread and the cup. There are not two suppers or really two parts of it, the idea is one Supper, it is the Lord’s supper.
Ques There are believers in wrong associations who claim to partake of the Lord’s supper. Would you say whether they can truly do that in wrong associations?
JT I am sure they cannot. The Scriptures are so full of instruction and, in that light, what you refer to cannot be accepted. There must be right principles and right doctrine underlying the service of God and the Lord’s supper leading in it. There are probably a hundred so-called religious christian systems; but there can be only one according to God, and that is based on the Lord’s supper. Then the service of God follows on that, the brethren all being brought into it under the leadership of Christ as the “minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”.
JSE Is that why you have been so concerned recently to emphasise the assembly amongst us, rather than permitting the thought of a remnant?
JT Quite so. I think the word ‘remnant’ is properly connected with Israel, whereas, in dealing with the service of God in relation to christianity, the word ‘remnant’ is not suitable. The Scriptures would require that the whole idea of the assembly should be kept before us; it is one idea. The assembly is the greatest family in the whole universe, and it is the family God has selected to set out His system of worship.
EuR Is that confirmed in our chapter by the words “When ye come together in assembly”? Is it still possible to come together in assembly in spite of the broken state of things?
JT I think so, I think that what I was saying is of prime importance. It is not simply as a remnant that we come together, but the whole idea is to be there, and the Spirit of God will be here. The blessed Spirit remains not in part, but as a whole. He supports and maintains the service of God — including the gospel, of course. The gospel is to promote material for the assembly; for the assembly is the prime thought in the divine mind at all times. But then there is the remnant of Israel and presently there will be the apostasy. God is holding His hand against what is current, but there will be an apostasy. That is one of the most solemn things, and although the apostasy is in principle current, it has not set in formally yet, because the Spirit of God is here and He holds His hand against the evil of an apostasy.
Ques When the Lord Jesus addresses Himself to Sardis, after the complete failure in Thyatira, He speaks of Himself as having “the seven Spirits of God”. Is that what you have in mind in the Spirit being here in fulness still?
JT Very good, “The seven Spirits” is the whole idea — the whole idea of the Spirit.
Ques So that alongside of that, there is to be maintained the whole idea of the assembly?
JT Quite so. God is behind all that; He has been calling attention to His service, and has brought forward ministry for the last hundred and twenty years that is suitable to lead to and support the idea of the service of God. The service of God is the great thought. The word ‘service of God‘ — that is the term or formula that we ought to keep before us all the time, because it is the leading thought at the present time. The assembly is the first thought in the mind of God at the present time, and it will continue so.
Ques Is this recognition of headship intended to set us free in regard of speaking to God and speaking to men? I was thinking of the way headship is introduced by praying and prophesying.
JT That shows that the chapter we have just read has the service of God in mind. The idea is to correct everything that was wrong and to maintain things according to order, for God is said to be the God of order, and the God of order enters into this matter of headship. Headship is the prime thought as conveying the intelligence that belongs to the assembly, especially in view of the Lord Jesus Christ being the Head of it; He is the Head of the assembly.
Ques Will you please distinguish between the thought of Head of the assembly and Head of every man, as it is in chapter 11.
JT I think Christ being the Head of every man would bring out the divine thought as to man. God is dealing with humanity and, of course, the fact that the Son has become Man is to give the full [p. 5] thought of it, and to show how important it is in the divine mind. The Son has become Man, and before entering on His full service He is seen as “about thirty years old”. So it is full manhood in the gospel of Luke.
Ques And the highest thought of manhood would be to be occupied in the service of God?
JT That is what I think. There are things added, such as meetings of this kind, and the Lord’s day afternoon reading to which the brethren usually rally, and which, I think, ought to be fully supported and promoted generally, especially among young people, who should not allow themselves to be diverted by ordinary affairs on the first day of the week. Then again another matter of importance is that God has graciously, or mercifully, granted us these weekends free to have meetings of this kind, and they are very prevalent. Generally, as far as I know, they are very prevalent throughout the christian world.
Ques Would you say that the idea of the man and woman in their place in the divine economy in the first part of the chapter is in view of that thought being filled out fully in Christ and the assembly?
JT That is just what I thought. One has often thought of the man and the woman being brought in in this peculiar way. No other part of Scripture has such a place in Paul’s writings, in this sense, and it is because the Lord took him up at the time his service was needed. The Lord took him up, and in due time gave him a leading place, which he retained until the end. Whenever it was that he was martyred, he had that place, and he had a great deal of time, too, in imprisonment, which probably was in the Lord’s mind to give him opportunity to develop the truth, even in writing, so that we have it now in our hands.
[p. 6] Ques Would you say a little more about the thought of divine order in all these things? Would that assure divine presence?
JT See how this chapter opens. The apostle says “Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ”. That is to say, the apostle followed the Lord Jesus in the service of God, and the idea of imitation is carried through, and all flowing out from Christ as the Head. “Be my imitators”, he says, “even as I” — emphatic — “also am of Christ”. So that the idea of imitation is stressed here, showing that the thing is to go through.
EBS Would you mind saying another word on Him being the Head of every man, in contrast to woman?
JT Well, let us read the passage. “I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions”, showing that Paul is again stressing himself. Notice these words — “ye keep the directions”. It is the idea of order, and then he goes on, “But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man”. Well now, I believe that what has been said already is true, that God is going on with humanity. He is not simply going on with judaism; He is going on with man — humanity; and the service of God requires that headship should be stressed for this. It is a question of man, and that Christ is the Head of every man — not only in the aggregate, nor of every assembly, but of every man; it is the idea of men.
AJG Does that mean that the intention is that every man should learn from Christ, and then that the woman should learn from the man?
JT That is just what I think is the truth here. Again I would say that God is showing that the idea of humanity has the first place with Him in regard of creation. Man is the leader of creation,
and hence the word was “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. And then it says “let them have dominion” that word is a plural word, and requires a woman. She is to be with the man, and the man is not to be without her. But the woman is not the first; man is the first and the woman was created for man, not man created for the woman. I believe all that is worked out in this chapter, the service of God being in mind. Man is in God’s mind, and He is never going to give it up. He will cleanse the world in the course of time in the sense of judgment, but He will retain man. He will retain man because Christ has become Man and He is not going to give up His manhood; He is to continue in it.
ACC Does the principle of subjection work out in these relations in view of the Supper?
JT I think that is the truth. What I quoted from Genesis 1 is also the truth, and it ought to be noted. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion” that is the man and woman; they are to be coupled together in dominion. It is the divine way, and God is holding to it and will hold to it. I suppose Israel will have its place in the millennium, and although Israel will have its place, man will be finally the great thought.
Rem And that much greater than angels.
JT Surely, because angels are said to minister, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation”. That is to say the angels are our ministers, although they are great servants too. Sometimes you can see that God has put them forward, but He has created them, for the very purpose of service, not to have an assembly of angels — things are not put that way; it is a question of manhood, including womanhood.
JTS “[p. 8] The tabernacle of God is with men”. Would you say that the headship of Christ continues into the eternal day?
JT That is the way, I think, that the chapter should be read in Revelation. It says, “The tabernacle of God is with men”, and “the tabernacle of God” will be the assembly. I think the book of Revelation is God asserting His rights to this, that, and the other thing, and among these rights is that man must have the first place.
WSS I was thinking in connection with what you have been saying, would it not bring out the importance of the man on the one hand and the woman on the other hand, each knowing their place in relation to the assembly in order that the service might be carried on rightly?
JT Quite so. Woman, in this epistle, is put under restriction as to speaking in the assembly, but she is nevertheless part of those who serve, she is part of the assembly, and her existence really will call attention to the fact that the assembly is a feminine thought.
WSS In the world, woman is seeking a great place and denying the principle that is laid down here. I was thinking of the necessity of accepting this principle if the sisters are to have the great place which belongs to them in assembly exercises and testimony.
JT Quite so. The place that women have, of course, has greatly caused degeneration, because she assumes to have the same place as man in regard of rule. Even in regard of voting, in certain countries those who hold the vote include women and they put certain men into power. So that all that is in mind, and yet God says that “He has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed”. So that man is kept there and the assurance comes from God as to Christ’s place. The word ‘judge’ there would be judgment in the sense of humanity being judged, and the government of God is in the hands of a Man. He will judge the habitable earth, in righteousness; the expression “habitable earth” is just a general thought of humanity.
RW In verse 3, it goes back to God, “Christ’s head God”. So that there is no confusion, but order.
JT That is true.
JSE Is there something peculiarly attractive in this allusion to the angels in verse 10 in relation to the woman?
JT It would show the place that angels have, although, as I said, they are given to be servants to those who are heirs of salvation. We cannot say how old the idea of angels is, but we do know how old man is, and God has kept back the idea of manhood to the final thought. It is in order clearly that His beloved Son should become a Man and He is now Man, and is the Head of every man.
AJG Does this reference to angels involve that angels take account of the maintenance of divine order in the assembly in contrast to the confusion in the world?
JT Just so, and, of course, we know angels have fallen, too; some of them have lost their first estate and the judgment of God overtakes them. At the same time, God has not given up His primary thought in man.
PL Is their service as ministering spirits but rendered the more intelligent by what is here afforded to them in the instruction as to divine order in the assembly? Does the observation on the part of the angels here of the covering afford them instruction as to the great thoughts of divine recovery?
JT Quite so. Every sister should take account of this. It will not, in any way, decrease her place [p. 10] or importance, or service, but she is to take account of divine order, and see that she is answering to God as she is observing what He has ordered in creation. Everything is under Christ in John 1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”, and it goes on to say that all things were made by Him, and that nothing was made without Him. So that there is no variation in the divine thoughts by sisters taking account of this matter of the covering, because it honours God and the influence of it extends not only to men on earth but to angels in heaven. It shows how God is regarding His creatures in the sense of man and woman, because He intends to work out the thought of the masculine and feminine in men, and it will come out presently in the millennium; in the meantime everything is worked out in the assembly.
Ques Is it made attractive in that Christ Himself took a place of subjection?
JT Quite so. He was subject even to His parents.
WSS Would you be free to say something about the word ‘authority’ in the verse we are considering (verse 10). “Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head”?
JT We might well look at the note given at the bottom of the page.
WSS The note says, ‘that is, a token of the authority under which she stands’.
JT That is, she has something above her.
WSS I think you said sometime ago, that it is like the badge of rank which a soldier wears, and of which he is proud, showing that he is under authority; but being under authority he can speak with authority.
JT Quite so. Under authority does not mean that he is rendered inferior by it, but he can speak [p. 11] with authority because he is under authority. A corporal is under authority in the Army; he is not reduced on that account, but there is an authority above him.
WGC Does the woman in the ordering of God become the expression of the grace of the assembly as subjected to Christ?
JT That is right. In the creation God intended to bring out the great thought of Christ and the assembly. He intended to bring it out, and He wanted to do it, and now He has done it, and the thing is to be worked out in christians, because christians have the Spirit; it is all a question of the Spirit.
AJG And you would say that this verse requires that the woman should at all times have authority on her head, and not simply when we are together in assembly?
JT That is what I think is right, and I believe the sisters are coming to see that, and to use the token — even if it is only a token of the place that she has and the authority she is under.
AHG Has woman a distinctive place in the setting forth of this principle of subjection?
JT I would think so. There is no doubt that God is helping us in our households. The principle of the household has come into more prominence than it has been, and I think it is to bring out this very thought, the place that woman has in it, and the place that man has over her and then the place that man has under Christ, and that Christ has under God. It is to bring out the great thought of order; divine order in God — God being everything.
JTS May not the very fact of the token being worn afford opportunity for testimony; testimony to Christ really?
JT Just so; and the household underlies that. That is to say the place that man has, and then the [p. 12] place that woman has under man, and the place that man has under Christ, and then the place that Christ has under God. It is remarkable that God stoops or condescends to give us all this instruction, so that He might see His own order in the assembly, and I believe the first day of the week has acquired a greater place because of this, and these meetings that we have, too, on Saturday afternoons, have acquired a place for instruction for all the brethren.
Ques Is it right to make clear that for formal prayer or prophesying a woman requires a real covering; the token you have spoken of would not be sufficient for that?
JT Not in the assembly service, but in the household I believe it is wise to have it.
Ques. To wear the token?
JT Just so.
Ques But when you kneel down to pray for the gospel should the women then have a hat on, or a covering?
JT Surely, and, as far as I know, they do.
AJG And in a woman’s individual prayer when she kneels down at home?
JT I would think so, especially of course if it is a household and she is not the only one in it. The idea of a household is not simply man and woman, but children too. Because God intends children to be brought into it all, for they are the ones coming forward. The Lord is taking one after another and others are taking their place, and the great thing is that they should carry on this great idea of imitation as we have it in this chapter, “Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ”.
Ques Are not children very observant of order, and do they not take it on quickly, and God helps them?
[p. 13] JT I am sure that is so.
CH Is it instructive that after Paul has insisted on the place which the woman has, he says in verse 11, “However, neither is woman without man, nor man without woman, in the Lord”, as though they are both necessary in that particular sphere?
JT They are necessary. Why should not God have a right to create humanity? He has created others especially angels, but why should He not have a right to do it, and therefore He must have this order carried out in the assemblies, even amongst ourselves.
Ques Do I understand that the token of authority on a woman’s head does not give her the authority to pray or to prophesy? What is the authority?
JT Well, the authority is given her; that is to say, God, Christ, man, woman — four great thoughts. The word ‘authority’ is a word that God Himself has formed. God has made man’s mouth and given him the authority to speak and enabled him, as He did Adam, to name the creatures. So typically Christ named us; we are all under Christ. He knows the name of every one of us, and God has great pleasure in all this being worked out; we are in the period in which it is being worked out, and the thing is to pursue it and make it effective practically in households, and then in the assembly, in the saints, in men and women, and in the children even. God is working in the children, bringing them into the truth; they are getting to know what is meant by it.
CH Did the centurion in Luke 7 understand this principle of authority in relation to the Lord? He asked the Lord to speak the word and his servant would be healed? He says “For I also am a man placed under authority”. We might have thought that he would have said ‘placed in authority’,
but he said “under authority, having under myself soldiers”. He seems to have said that in relation to the Lord.
JT Quite so.
JMcK Would you encourage sisters to pray aloud vocally in their own rooms? I mean alone. I am thinking of their communion with divine Persons, that they would not merely pray in silence.
JT Well, of course, the silence will not prevent God hearing what they say or think. Take the Old Testament, Hannah, for instance, prayed, and the Lord blessed her, and Samuel was the product. I do not know just what your thought is fully, perhaps you will enlarge on what is in your mind?
JMcK I wondered if the sisters took up more the thought of praying distinctly and audibly, whether it would help to develop spiritual personality, and they would experience help and development.
AJG It says “Hannah spoke in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard”.
JT Quite. Now what do you make of that?
JMcK I would accept that happily. Of course that is a temple setting, is it not? But I wondered whether in the formation of words with the lips the angels would be able to take account of it.
JT Oh! they will; that is to say God has made them; they are at our service. They are the servants of those who shall be heirs of salvation, and then He gives them understanding, so that they understand us. It is wonderful that the angels are so intelligent, but while they are intelligent as servants, they are not heirs of salvation, but they are intelligent, and we are the heirs of salvation.
Ques In the case of a husband and wife praying together, is it proper for the man to voice the prayer for both of [p. 15] them?
JT I think so. Men pray everywhere. It says “I will therefore that the men pray in every place”, 1 Timothy 2: 8. What would you say about that?
Rem Yes, that is what I thought. Sometimes it is suggested that the woman should pray too in the presence of her husband.
JT Well, I do not know, I did not think of it in that way. Men are said to pray everywhere, and if there is any prayer being made, I think men are to do it, not women. If men are not there, of course, in the headship, the sisters are to do it with children and servants, and the like of that in the house itself.
AJG It would seem to be in keeping with divine order that if a brother and a sister are together in prayer, that God should be approached through the head?
JT That is just what I was thinking.
Ques Would the idea of the manna in any way link on, the head of the house having to provide for all that were in his household?
JT Quite so.
JAC Does Peter in his epistle put the responsibility on the husband in saying “Ye husbands likewise, dwell with them according to knowledge, as with a weaker, even the female, vessel, giving them honour, as also fellow-heirs of the grace of life, that your prayers be not hindered”.
JT Very good. Many a time one has thought of that.
AHG Does the adjustment of things in the households in this way prepare the way for the taking of the Supper and for the service of God?
JT Well, the setting here is clearly that. We have the culmination of the subject of headship and then the Lord’s supper is worked out from verse 17 to the end.
AHG Would perhaps weakness in relation to the latter part of the Supper and the service [p. 16] of God be the result of these exercises not having been faced?
JT I think that is right. I am encouraged to read this chapter today — I am encouraged in every moment of it — because I can see the brethren are concerned about it too. The next reading that we have will be on Ephesians; that is where we get the full thought of Christ and the assembly. We do not get that properly in Romans; the full thought is in Ephesians.
EuR Do the types referred to in chapter 10 make it clear that the position in this epistle is a wilderness one?
JT Quite so, very good. But it leads up to the assembly, though the assembly is not always seen in a wilderness position; but the assembly involves the land.
Ques Is all this instruction in the earlier part of the chapter necessary if we are to come together in assembly?
JT Surely, that is just what I was saying. It says in verse 17, “But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise”. So that there was something wrong at Corinth, and he is seeking to put it right, and that is what we would seek to do now as to ourselves. So it goes on to say, “I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse”. That is things were not right, and God was getting no pleasure out of them, which is a very humbling thing. Paul says, “first, when ye come together in assembly” — notice the word here “in assembly”. It is not ‘in the assembly’ but “in assembly”, that means it is the character of the thing — “I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it” and so forth. So the assembly is in mind now in this section and the service of God is clearly seen [p. 17] set there.
TWA Does that emphasise that there should be no disorder in the assembly?
JT Just so; it is not allowed; and the next section (that is beginning at verse 17) shows that. The apostle is very severe in what he is saying, pointing out that there was disorder amongst them.
Ques You referred earlier in the meeting to “be my imitators”. In the close of the previous chapter, he says, “do all things to God’s glory”. So that if the directions concerning the covering and so on, in the early part of chapter 11 are followed, and the glory of God is considered for, the assembly would be right, would it not?
JT Surely. The assembly is the prime thought with God in this matter of His service. We thank Him, too, for the provision made in ministry, and instruction for us, and then in hymns. God has greatly helped the brethren through the hymns that we have. He has provided for us and for his services, in these hymns and they should be pursued, and read and used rightly; not simply that we use one particular hymn constantly for our own purpose, but use them liberally, as God has given them to us. It says, “God, who gives to all freely and reproaches not”, and we should thank Him for these hymns that we have, because they greatly augment the service of God and the pleasure that He gets from His people. We are constituted priests unto God, and the word priest is used as to Christ, too; Christ has His own priests.
CH Would add that flow out particularly from the memorial side of the Supper?
JT Well, I would think so. It can be seen from this section from verse 17 to end that the assembly is prominently before us, the word being used twice, and it is to show that the assembly has a great place as a vessel. It is a vessel for the securing of and maintaining the service of God. The Spirit of God is [p. 18] in it, and in it as being a vessel. We can see therefore what we are saying is correct, namely that the assembly must have its own place, and it had not its own proper place in the gatherings at Corinth. Therefore if any such condition arises at the present time we have to go over the ground again in this letter, having in mind Paul’s place in the assembly. He was the minister of it, and therefore he ought to have the first place, it seems to me, in any matter when we have to deal with the Lord’s supper and the service of God of which the Lord’s supper is the beginning. The assembly must have its own place, as a vessel, for it is a suitable vessel, in which the service of God can be maintained.
Rem And it is a very serious thing to despise the assembly of God in any respect whatsoever. It says in verse 22, “do ye despise the assembly of God”.
JT Quite so, showing that it is possible for us to do that even when we are together. How much also it may be seen in ordinary affairs, and there can be no doubt that chapter 10 is to prepare us for other days of the week. Chapter 10 deals with ordinary days, whereas chapter 11 deals with [p. 19] the first day of the week. It is also seen in Acts 20 where it says that the disciples came together to break bread on the first day of the week.
JTS Ought we to know something of what is said in Luke 24 in connection with the breaking of bread? They related how He was made known to them in the breaking of bread.
JT It shows the place it has.
WSS The Supper would provide the divinely given basis for the coming together. There cannot be any service without this coming together.
JT So that the first day of the week is the first day of the week, it is not now the seventh day, it is the first day of the week. It is the day for the breaking of bread and for the service of God.
WSS And apart from the Supper the saints cannot be properly set together?
JT No, they cannot be convened properly. Of course, we can convene the assembly for discipline, but generally speaking, the full idea is seen on the first day of the week. We have the Lord’s supper and the service of God and of course the preaching of the gospel has its own place too. We can understand that, because Paul’s word “my gospel” is peculiarly associated with all those thoughts.
Ques It would appear that matters of eating and drinking are to be ordered in relation to the Supper. It would not be comely for the sisters to stay at home to cook the dinner?
JT I would say that fully. It would be despising the assembly, I would think, and despising the rights of God too.
JAC There were other things at Corinth that could well wait until the apostle came there, but this great matter as to the service of God following the Supper could not wait. So that we are to have this ever prominent in our minds.
JT That is the idea exactly. Then think of what God has provided for us and brought down to our own times, this wonderful translation of the Scriptures, and the wonderful ministry too, such as the Collected Writings — all those volumes of them! We may thus be the more grateful to God for all these things, and follow them up fully, and carry them out, and not let them lie idle.