WORTHING - READING (2)
WORTHING — READING (2)
JT Someone here was asking a question as we left off this morning.
PAW We were speaking of the high level of things this morning, and also the place that the Spirit has in relation to the service of God. I wondered if you could help us as to the Spirit leading us on into these great high levels. We have in Ephesians 2: 18 “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”.
JT It is clear enough that the access is through the exercise of the Spirit’s power. “Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”. That is through Christ, so that it is a question of mediatorial service, which is a very important matter, and involves that One of the divine Persons takes a lower place to be mediator — to mediate a position or a circumstance. There are clearly religious systems around us that have certain principles to go by that are simply human — at least in a great measure, but those who are walking in the truth recognise that the means of worship is by the Spirit — through the mediatorial service of Christ.
PAW I think some of us would like help on the position the Spirit has as Mediator.
JT There are two ideas. First it is “through him” — that is Christ; He is the main thought in the mediatorship, but then the Spirit also is a Mediator. Of course it is a question of the power of the Spirit, but the Lord Jesus is the actual Mediator in everything. The main idea of mediatorship in divine things is in Christ Himself but then the Spirit has a part in the mediatorship also. There are three Persons in the Deity, and of course the Three act in whatever it may be and the Spirit in this case acts in our souls. It is not external; it is [p. 184] in our souls.
PAW I think the thought of the Spirit being in our souls is helpful.
JT Just so. Now if you take the Church of England, of course, they have got methods or ways that are merely human, and so have the Presbyterians, and so also all of them, whereas those who are walking in the truth recognise the Spirit, and they recognise that Christ is the main thought of Mediator of everything, and that the Spirit also has a mediatorial service, but that is inside of us.
Now what is before us is 2 Corinthians 12 where we get, “Well, it is not of profit to me to boast, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows)”; it is remarkable this repetition in the parenthesis, and then he says: “that he was caught up into paradise”. “He was caught up into paradise”. That is the idea that is before us, for it is a question of elevation, and what this may mean in Paul’s case. It is really physical catching up. He did not know whether he was in the body or out of the body, which is a remarkable thing. Apparently he was — like Peter — in a state of ecstasy, and therefore it is a question of our being able to discern what is meant in this elevation; how it happened to him. He intimates that it is extraordinary because apparently it only happened to him once, and that was fourteen years before, which is a very remarkable thing.
FB Does it suggest, so to speak, a complete change of place?
JT The apostle has to acknowledge that he did not know himself, whether he was in the body or out of the body. It is for us to discern now, if we can [p. 185] do it, what the condition can be — in the body or out of it. Yet Paul is conscious, for he is able to say what happened. What did you mean by change of place?
FB It says he was caught up into paradise, I thought that would indicate an entirely different position to being on earth, and therefore he would speak of it as a complete change from what he was generally used to.
JT Yes, but then the question is, how could he say that he knew about it. “I know”, he says, “a man”. It is a sort of abstract statement, and then he repeats it in verse 3: “And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise”. He changes the word from “third heaven” to “paradise”, so that I confess that I myself feel that I do not know just what to say about it, because it is extraordinary. It is an extraordinary circumstance, and yet it is clear that it is an opportunity for the brethren — a good many of us here now — just to enquire what it means, and whether there is any such experience in the service of God that we know of. I confess I do not know of it, nor do I think that Paul knew it fully; he says, “I know not, God knows”, and we can take refuge in that — that God knows everything.
Ques Do you think it would be divine compensation for all the sorrows that he speaks of in the previous chapter? “Thrice have I been scourged, once I have been stoned” and so on to the end of the chapter, “and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands”.
JT I suppose you might read that into it. Whether he really means that I do not know, but I think he means that we have come into what is wonderful in the sense of spiritual understanding — spiritual knowledge, and it is for us to seek to be in [p. 186] it and join together in it, and know the service of God as in it.
Rem I was wondering whether he was worthy of it, divine communications being given to those who are near enough and worthy to receive them.
JT Well, possibly that might be said.
Ques What have you in mind about his naming the third heaven and paradise?
JT That in itself is really a wonderful thing. It is an inscrutable thing to my mind, and I think we should all seek to come into inscrutability, because we belong to the realm of inscrutability as in christianity.
Ques Does this experience come with the visions and revelations that he refers to earlier?
JT It does, that is what he is speaking about. We might as well just look at the wording. He says: “Well, it is not of profit to me to boast, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord”. That is to say it was the Lord’s doing — the Lord was revealing Himself in certain connections and circumstances, and then he says, “I know a man” — meaning that he had extraordinary relations with God and with the Lord, and with the Spirit. Perhaps, as suggested, there was no man in the whole realm of creation like Paul — so much distinctiveness — he was honoured so much in the truth. So that it is just as well to think that there was such a man, but at the same time there is something for us to see, in the sense of spirituality, that we have not reached, and the question is whether we can reach it, because it is a time of learning, and if God is graciously giving us opportunity to learn we must take advantage of it, and seek that we can learn, because the Spirit of God is within us. He is actually here as sent from heaven; that has been repeated over and over again, and I do not know of anything more important in the matter that we are dealing [p. 187] with, than that the Spirit of God has been sent from heaven. It does not say He has come — He has been sent from heaven. He is under orders, as it were, and yet He is a divine Person, showing how the divine Persons can interchange positions. We cannot say what was before the economy in which we are; we just do not know, but They were there and there were Three, and They were all equal, but now They have come into an economy, two of Them taking less place than one of Them; that is to say, the Father. The Lord Jesus and the Spirit have taken a lower place relatively than the Father. So that I confess all this is inscrutable, and we might as well accept the idea of inscrutability and yet, at the same time, seek whether we can attain to anything of it.
Ques Would you say why the apostle speaks of himself as “a man in Christ”?
JT It is to bring out the idea of manhood, but it is manhood in Christ. There is a passage elsewhere — “the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus”. That is the same allusion; He is the Mediator. Of course, the Spirit is too, according to what we are saying here, for the Spirit also can be a Mediator, but the Father is supreme; it is with Him the mediatorship is. That is to say the Mediator is in relation to the Father; He mediates things in relation to the Father.
Ques As regards the matter of elevation, is it right to say that the third heaven is the highest altitude to which the creature can go?
JT It looks like that. But the Lord is gone beyond all the heavens, so that we have to recognise a non-created (if I may use that expression) condition. The Lord can go beyond all that, because He is a divine Person. We cannot do it, for we are just creatures, and even Paul was just that. It is well [p. 188] however to accept that there is such a condition, because it reminds us what we are brought into.
Ques Is Paul bringing this forward as showing what gave colour and character to his ministry? He is not stressing his apostleship, but this experience of the man in Christ.
JT Quite so, but he was an apostle, as he says. He is abstract here because he, as it were, separates himself from himself, from his individuality. He says, “I know a man in Christ” and then, “I know such a man”. That is a thorough idea, so that it is intended to remind us all of the greatness of his calling, and the ministry that he had. But the object now would be for us to see whether we can get into anything like that, because we have been converted and have the Spirit.
GWB Would there be any connection between this and the promise to the overcomer at Ephesus? He would be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.
JT Just so. The allusion clearly is to the same thing. The word ‘paradise’ is the same word here. But it says he will be given to eat of the tree of life, and the tree of life is Christ Himself; He is the tree of life.
AJG Christ in His own sphere, the sphere of the Father’s pleasure; would that be the thought of paradise?
JT Well, I do not know. We have the word ‘paradise’, of course, and there is what was alluded to a moment ago, an ecstasy. It is open to us, but it is a question whether christians at the present time, including ourselves here today, know anything of this ecstasy, and whether we know anything of these thoughts that we are now seeking to speak of, whether we know anything about being “caught up”. That is the word used, “caught up into paradise” — meaning that he is brought actually into it. But before that it was “as far as”, “I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven”. There is an expression “the third heaven”. We can speak of the first one, for we see it, it is visible; but the third, what do we see? I mean to say we are dealing with wonderful things, and inscrutable things, but at the same time it is surely intended that we might have some part in them, and become more spiritual than we are.
JP In chapter 5 we read that “if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. Would the “man in Christ” be a development of that idea?
JT Quite so; “If any one be in Christ”, he says, “there is a new creation” — not ‘he is new creation’, but there is such a thing, and he has part in it.
AM In the same chapter (chapter 5 of this book) Paul says, “For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God”. Is that not a reference to ecstasy, and he says ‘we’ there as if he would look for others to become in that state?
JT Quite so. It refers to Paul and those with him. If they were beside themselves, it was to God. It is a phrase that implies he is not in his ordinary reckonings; he cannot say whether he is in the body or out of it. He is simply out of his ordinary reckonings, but then the question is whether we today can say anything, whether we have any knowledge or experience such as that, otherwise there would be really no advantage in the scripture being written at all. There is surely something in it for us, as to this matter of being beside ourselves. If I am beside myself it is to God — he would be taken up with God so much, that he would be in an ecstasy.
AJG And what you are pressing is that the power for this being caught up is in [p. 190] the Spirit.
JT Just so, and whether we have any experience of the kind, or whether we just go along as if things are all right with us spiritually, and yet really it is not, because this is something that is possible to us; it is within our reach.
Ques Is it your thought, then, that in the economy in which we are, if this was possible to one man it is possible to another?
JT That is right. The ‘we’ is just the ‘we’ of christianity. That is, he is saying something that is obviously true.
AB Would there be any similarity in regard of the Spirit of the Lord catching away Philip at the end of Acts 8? You were referring to the power of the Spirit of God, and this thought of being caught up, or caught away.
JT That is another instance of what we are speaking about. The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; it was the Spirit’s action, and Philip was found somewhere else. There were such things happening in the early days of christianity. We know that well because of the facts mentioned, but then the question is whether there is not something of the kind that we may have part in.
AJG In Revelation 4 John says he heard a voice saying: “Come up here”, and he says, “Immediately I became in the Spirit”. Is that an example of availing oneself of the Spirit’s power?
JT Just so; I would say that. That is a point that ought to help us, “I became in the Spirit”. It is a question of how we can become things; how we can change. There is a certain change that we come into, but then how can we come into it? It enters much into the first day of the week — the Lord’s day and with it the Lord’s supper, because these changes are possible. I think what we are dealing with is something that is hardly expressible in words; it is something to be understood in the [p. 191] soul. You would soon be moved by it if you experienced it and acted in it. It would soon become known to the brethren; we should be known to each other as spiritual, because the point is now spirituality, and how we acquire it and how we may ascend into heaven in a moral sense at the present time, as we shall, in a physical sense, presently. But this really is a physical matter that Paul is alluding to — he has been caught up himself and he could not tell whether he was in the body or out of it, and therefore it is an unknown matter — only God knows about it. But yet we are here, and there is opportunity for us to learn something of this in our own experience, but whether we are doing it is a question.
Ques Does the first reference to Paul being caught up to the third heaven present, if I understand it rightly, that there were limitations to his going higher? But, in the second reference, that you are bringing before us, there appears to be no limitation in the power of the Spirit. Is that so?
JT There are limitations to us — to creatures, but Paul refers to something that he had experienced, namely, that he had been caught up to the third heaven. Then he uses another word, and that word is paradise, which is the thought of immense enjoyment.
Rem That is the force, perhaps, of the word into paradise.
JT That is the force of it, but in the first sentence he says, “Such a one caught up to”. There is a change of word in the original there.
Rem I was only thinking, in asking that question, as to Christ having ascended above all heavens.
JT That does not mean that we can go up beyond all heavens. It is a divine Person of whom that is said.
Rem Yes, therefore I was wondering whether in the case of Paul he writes in this way as showing limitations, but he says, “into paradise” — he is inside, where he heard these unspeakable things.
JT He is saying it because it is a very important matter, because he is implying that he was distinguished in this way, in that he was caught up. It is just something that he was entitled to do and to write about, so that we might get into it in some sense. I say ‘in some sense’; I do not know what the sense is, but some sense.
WSS Do you connect this passage with the rapture, where the same words are used — caught up?
JT That is the word that is used for rapture, really. That will take place when the Lord Himself comes down from heaven, but then the change has to come about, and the Spirit of God will bring about that change. At the rapture, we shall be changed, but this does not allude to that. This alludes to what is possible, in some sense, with us at the present time, before actually we are changed in body.
Ques With regard to the thought of “into paradise”, there is a reference in John 1: 18, which speaks about Him who is in the bosom of the Father. Would you tell us a little about that, please?
JT I do not know; “in the bosom of the Father” means infinite affection between the Father and Son — infinite. Much could be said about the word in, but I do not know that we can say anything to help us here. The bosom of the Father refers to the infinite relations of affection between the Father and the Son, “The Father loves the Son”, it says, “and has given all things to be in his hand”.
Ques In referring to inscrutability and our being able, in some measure perhaps, to touch it, does that link with what Paul says that he “heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter”?
JT That is what he says [p. 193] here.
Ques Would that touch on what is inscrutable?
JT “I ... heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter”. That is just what we are dealing with, and yet we are to enquire amongst ourselves, and each for himself, as to whether he understands anything of it, because it is within our range, clearly.
FB I would like to ask if this of which you have been speaking is confined to the Lord’s day morning meeting?
JT I speak of the Lord’s day morning meeting because it is alluded to in the first epistle, chapter 11. He says in verse 17, “In prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse. For first, when ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you”. That is to say, he deals there with the idea of the divine service, and that the Lord’s supper is the beginning of it; but we are now dealing with the second epistle, and it is a question whether we know anything of what we are speaking of. “I know a man in Christ”, he says, “fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven”. That is a remarkable thing, and then he goes on to say, “And I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter”. Well, now we are dealing with what is unspeakable, but at the same time there is something that we can come into; it is surely written for that purpose.
AJG Does the fact that he speaks of hearing unspeakable things said indicate that he was allowed to hear the communion between the Father and the Son? Would it be divine Persons speaking?
[p. 194] JT Well, very likely. We had something recently as to what we come into. The first was in Acts 1, and I might just read it so as to give a clue to what we are talking about, “Having said these things he was taken up, they beholding him, and a cloud received him out of their sight” (verse 9). That is just an inscrutable thing, and yet it is remarkable that it is given to us to know something of it, and the question is, therefore, what we do know. Then it is said that God made the worlds by the Lord Jesus. What worlds are they and where are they? We do not know how many there are, but then these things are written for our learning, and it is undoubtedly to bring about a state of spirituality in us, so as to enable us to enter into things, because presently we shall be caught up to heaven and join the Lord with one another in the air. We are coming to this almost at any moment, and the present time is a time of learning, so that we might be fit for all these things that are written for us, and that we might know something about them.
PL So that all this is to promote a spiritual state suited to eternity.
JT That is what I thought, because eternity is before us. We are going into it, and the dead in Christ are to rise first, and that is yet another thing we have to think of. Those that have died in Christ are to rise first, and those of us that remain are to be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we be for ever with the Lord, “With the Lord” — that is an eternal condition.
GHM Do we get some help from the word in Ezekiel 8, where it says, “The Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem ... . And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley”.
JT That fits in with what we are talking about, for it is a question of what Ezekiel and the prophets came into. If the prophets had something that we have not got, and if Paul had something that we have not got, well now, why cannot we have it? That is the whole question this afternoon, as to whether it is possible for us to become more spiritual, and therefore to escape worldliness, and earthly-mindedness that is so apt to lay hold of us. It is not actual wickedness, but earthly-mindedness which is unspiritual. We do not know anything about these things, but is it not possible that we should know them? That is the whole question.
Ques And would you say that throughout those fourteen years, through all kinds of sufferings, he had retained the impression as fresh as it was at the beginning in spirituality?
JT I would say that. He remembered fourteen years ago. He might put it into days, or into minutes, so to speak, but he knew it, he remembered it, and he mentioned it clearly so that they might understand that God had honoured him. He was to be honoured too, and the Corinthians were not honouring him at times; they did not honour Paul at times at Corinth. It very often happens that even ministers in our own times are not properly gauged as to their importance, and what value they are in the assembly. So that we should know each other, and know how to regard each other. Paul was not properly regarded at certain times, we can see that, and so he gives a long list of things that he endured, in chapter 11. He says in verse 32 of that chapter, “In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes shut up, wishing to take me; and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands”. That is to bring out the sufferings of Paul. Of course, we have the sufferings of Christ; Peter speaks [p. 196] of the sufferings of Christ, but then we have the sufferings of Paul, for he followed Christ. That is the great thing for us to see, that he was a true follower of Christ, and he wished that we should be followers of him as he was of Christ.
Ques Paul speaks of the matter of fasting. Would that have a bearing on this matter you are referring to?
JT There is a strong bearing on it, because the Lord says, “This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting”. Some kind of demon possession was referred to, but it could only be cast out by prayer and fasting. The early christians clearly knew about it and practised it. Paul did, anyway. So that “prayer and fasting” is a thing to be thought of, and how much we can acquire by it.
Ques Why did Paul wait fourteen years before he spoke of this?
JT That is a good question. But why did he? He does not tell us. He just records it so that the brethren might think rightly of him, and how God had honoured him and what ability he had.
AH You referred to chapter 11, but Paul says there: “I do not lie”, and now in this chapter he says: “I will say the truth”. Why does he speak like that?
JT He wants to impress upon the Corinthians that he did not lie; he was truthful. Sometimes we are quite untruthful, in spirit, even if not actually or openly so. But Paul was not that; he was truthful. It is remarkable that he deigns to tell the Corinthians that he was that, and that he did not die.
WSS I should like to ask whether you think that the Lord’s day morning, after the Supper, would present the greatest opportunity to us to know something of this kind of thing?
JT I would think that is the truth. It is the Lord’s supper, but the Lord deigns to allow ourselves [p. 197] to have part in it, of course; it is intended for us, but the Spirit has part in it. The Spirit takes part in it and helps us to understand and to recall the Lord Himself, as it says in the note: ‘For the calling of me to mind’. The Lord’s supper is for a calling of Christ to mind, that we may take on of His character, and become like Him.
WSS I was thinking how we might be carried by the Spirit at such a time into these spiritual realms.
JT I would say that fully. Some have indicated that we should not speak to the Spirit at all, but that is not true. We can speak to the Spirit; Peter did, calling Him Lord.
Ques Have we not the word ‘rapture’ used in the typical language of the Song of Songs: “In his shadow have I rapture and sit down”? Does that not suggest an experience of the bride?
JT The word ‘rapture’ is great or intense enjoyment; it is the idea of pleasure.
JSE May I ask if you think that the allusion to the Spirit in His authority in chapter 3 is set out to help us to see where the power is, and, in this chapter we are reading from, is Paul giving an illustration in himself as to the result of this?
JT I would say so. But, of course, we are dealing now with elevation, and it seems to be seen here really in a physical sense, because Paul says, “I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows; ) such a one caught up to the third heaven”. That is to say, it was an actual fact that he was caught up — it was a physical matter. Then, as we were saying, where the worlds are is all akin to this. We cannot say how many there were, but whatever there were they were all made by Christ, for God made the worlds by Christ. It is a marvellous [p. 198] thing that we know something about that, and we ought to enter into it more, that there is something of that kind for us, “By whom also he made the worlds”.
Ques Would you say something, please, about the thorn for the flesh in this regard?
JT That is just to check us if we are carried away by any success in service, because we are apt to think too much of ourselves and so we get a thorn for the flesh to humble us, as he says further, “If I shall desire to boast, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth; but I forbear, lest any one should think as to me above what he sees me to be, or whatever he may hear of me. And that I might not be exalted by the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn for the flesh”, meaning that it was something to check the exertions of the flesh; it was to check that. “A thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan” — a remarkable thing — “that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted”. And so he says, “For this I thrice besought the Lord that it might depart from me. And he said to me” — the Lord said to Paul — “My grace suffices thee”; and then the Lord says further, “for my power is perfected in weakness”. And then Paul says, “Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me. Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ, for when I am weak, then I am powerful” (verses 9, 10). All this shows how a servant is to keep himself under — keep his body under, so that he may not be carried away by his own importance, which is very apt to take hold of any of us.
FWK Is there a sharp distinction drawn in verse 5? He speaks of “such a one”, which was “a man in Christ”, and then he says, “But of myself I will not boast”?
JT ‘Myself’ is what he was ordinarily down here. Suppose a man had a wife and children; it is just what he might be ordinarily down here, that is himself. But “a man in Christ” is another idea altogether outside of all that. That is a heavenly thought that we are to enter into while we are down here.
Ques And was the messenger of Satan a divine preservative for the impressions that were lodged in the vessel?
JT I would think so; it was to save him. Such a vessel should be saved and the Lord knew that. We learn from the book of Acts how he failed several times; well, the Lord saw that, but He saved His servant, and He knows all about every one of us, and therefore we have to count on the Lord to help us, to save ourselves from the workings of the flesh, and the thorn for the flesh, whatever it may be, is useful for that.
Rem In the first epistle Paul speaks of buffeting his own body, “But I buffet my body, and lead it captive”.
JT Just so.
Ques May I ask a question in relation to the service of God, as to whether in worshipping the Father you would confine yourself to the idea of spiritual and moral elevation, or whether it would be right to bring in the thought of being actually there soon?
JT I should think so; why should we not? The fourth chapter of first Thessalonians tells us “thus we shall be always with the Lord”. Surely that is a great thought? It is a great and precious thought in the service of God that we have already in our minds, that in a moment we will be transported there, for we belong to the class of men that may be transported at any moment to heaven; that is [p. 200] as changed. If we die, of course, our bodies go into the grave, but presently the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then those of us that are alive and remain will be caught up, but we have to be changed before we are caught up, and the Spirit does that, I think; the Spirit quickens us.
Rem I asked the question because in the minds of many to refer to the physical idea of elevation is a drop in power. I think a good many brethren feel that.
JT It is, you might say, the hope of something.
Rem I go fully with what you are saying.
JT Yes, quite so, I mean the items of faith, hope and love. These are items that stimulate us and help us in the service of God.
Ques So that the two sides we have had before us today would properly enter into the service of God?
JT I should say so; all these are things that cause hope, “Hope does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us”. The Spirit does that — “the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts”. It is the Spirit’s work to do that, and all that enters into the service of God to make us happy and hopeful in it.
FB Would you say a word as to the expression, “The power of the Christ may dwell upon me”. Is that in view of his understanding what he had experienced; is that the power of the Spirit?
JT I think so. The power of Christ is the power of the Spirit; the power of God is the power of the Spirit. The divine Persons are inscrutable, but there are three and They are equal, according to the teaching we have in Scripture, but the economy into which we have come shows that two of Them take a lower place than one of Them; that is, the Father. Therefore all these things enter into the idea [p. 201] of our service, because if we have joy in our service or if we have love in our service, well the Spirit of God does that for us, our service is improved. Our service in every sense is thus improved by the effect of the Spirit, and the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So that here he says, “For when I am weak, then I am powerful”. He is referring to what he has just said; it is a consequential matter. So that he is not afraid if persons come against him who want to kill him, even he is not overcome, because there is no more that they can do. They are left out, therefore. The saint thus is superior to all circumstances, and that is really the meaning of this chapter.
Ques Does this show that support is greater than relief? The thorn was sent for his benefit, but he had also the grace of Christ to help him to sustain it.
JT Yes. “My grace suffices thee”. The grace of Christ suffices us as to everything; it makes us powerful, so that when we are weak we are more powerful.
Ques Why is it only Christ in this epistle? It is usually “Christ Jesus” in all his other epistles, and “in Christ Jesus” conveys so much more to our souls, does it not?
JT We get Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ, too. It is just a question of pursuing and taking up the Bible and looking into it and seeing what it means, because the context almost invariably explains what any text means. So that the Spirit of God has written in such a way as to explain Himself in all that is said in the Bible. The context helps us, “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete”. The man of God is a man that is here for God, for His work and [p. 202] service.
AW In verse 8, where it says, “For this I thrice besought the Lord”, is that the Lord Jesus or Lord Spirit?
JT That is the Lord Jesus. I besought the Lord Jesus that it might depart from me, it was the Lord Jesus who sent it to him. The Lord sent him the thorn, and the Lord would take it away. So that Paul besought the Lord to take it away.
GCS Does this experience of Paul greatly stimulate his service: “Now I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls” (verse 15)?
JT Yes. It was for the Corinthians’ souls, “Now I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls”. That is to say, Paul is showing what love he has for the Corinthians and how ready he is to serve them and even to lay down his life, if necessary. It shows what the Lord has set down in this chapter for us who are seeking to serve Him in any sense, and especially those who have gift to do it.
Ques Is it like the Lord saying, “I am among you as he that serveth”?
JT Quite so; exactly. That is just what Paul says, “Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ”. That is the idea, and he brings it out here.
Ques Was Paul right in beseeching the Lord three times and then not going any further?
JT I think he was. It is an example for us. If you do not get an answer the third time, you may as well say the Lord is not going to answer you, because if He is going to answer you He will answer you the third time.
Ques May I ask why this is disclosed to an assembly such as the Corinthians, as to whom, in the close of this chapter, he evidently has moral doubts?
JT Well, that explains what we are saying.
[p. 203] AH In verse 11 he charges them with making him become a fool.
JT That is the way they treated him! that is just what he is dealing with, and yet he loves them. It indicates how love must come into the matter with every one of us who is seeking to serve the Lord, so that we bear all things, hope all things, and do not give way, because of the opposition or criticism. Criticisms are very trying in service when people are doing the best they can.
AJG Do you think it would be distasteful to the apostle to say all this about himself, but love required it to be said in order that he might get the proper place he should have with the Corinthians?
JT Quite so. That is what he means by “ye have compelled me”. Their behaviour was scandalous when there was a brother like Paul doing so much for them. I use the word ‘scandalous’ because they really were. Chapter 11 of the first epistle shows that they were behaving very badly. If anyone reads it they will see what is meant.
JOS Would what the Lord says in John 15, verse 7, come in? “If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall come to pass to you”. Does that encourage us to take this matter up in prayer?
JT Quite so. It shows how we can get things and how the Lord is ready to answer our prayers.