BAPTISM
BAPTISM
JT It helps, I think, to bring the types into all these epistles, because they are divinely intended, to supply what is in many instances passed over as to detail in the New Testament. I think this chapter fits in with Exodus 15.
Rem They all were baptised to Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
JT The principle of baptism was seen in Moses at his infancy, and the parents’ action in regard to it. But the formal type of baptism is really the Red Sea; and it is remarkable that it does not say that Moses crossed the sea. What we read is that by faith they crossed, the people crossed. So therefore the Red Sea teaches us what the import of baptism is. As we grow up, and recognise that we are baptised, the time comes when it must become a matter of faith to us each one. It is a very remarkable thing, to my mind, that it is the only instance in which it is said of the people that they did anything by faith. If baptism is not a matter of faith, it is obvious that it must be a dead letter to us; of no moral value at all.
Ques When you point out that it is not specially recorded that Moses crossed the Red Sea, is it to be inferred from that that he had already passed through it in principle?
JT Yes. What is said of him is, that he celebrated the passover by faith; and it does not say it was for himself alone, but that the destroying angel should not touch them; as if he recognised the great penalty of God that lay upon them.
G “By faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them”; (Hebrews 11:28) he had the people in his [p. 301] mind. So that Moses, in that sense, typified the Lord; he went into death typically when placed in the river by his mother.
TMG So they were baptised to Moses, their leader, and he was typically Christ.
JT I think it helps us to see the position of Moses in regard to the people; how he really, before he left Egypt, took the place of the destroying angel; he slew the Egyptian. He acted before the time; he never had been assigned that work at all; the work of judgment was not assigned to Moses; he was to be the deliverer of the people; and what we are told after that is that by faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: that is to say, he had light in regard of divine power; he did not fear man’s power. And when he returned after forty years (he had learned of God during the forty years that the penalty really rested on himself as much as on the Egyptian) there is no thought of destroying the Egyptians: what he does recognise is, that the destroying angel is approaching, and the only shelter even for the Israelites is the passover, and the blood. So you can see the Spirit of Christ in Moses; it does not say he thought of his own shelter, but of the people’s. When you come to the anti-type the Lord is the passover. He went into death in order that the destroying angel should not touch us.
TMG Christ our passover is sacrificed for us, therefore let us keep the feast.
JT Well, now, by faith they crossed the sea; and that is where I think the teaching of baptism, is seen in the type; we have all to come to the matter as in faith; in other words, what is the light you have as to your baptism?
C And here we have it, “reckon yourselves dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, through Jesus Christ our Lord”, (Romans 6:11).
JT Yes. “As many of you as were baptised unto Christ Jesus were baptised unto his death”. He there brings in the import of baptism.
WM It is the way out of the place in which we were into a new position, is it not?
JT I think so; it is change of position. It is a great thing to see that it was a matter of faith. The parental idea is also taught in Exodus; the children must not remain in Egypt; everyone must go; but then, everyone in time must know in his own soul the meaning of baptism.
Rem So that you would say it is the spirit of it, more than the thing itself?
JT Well, as to the outward form, the two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s supper, must become dead letters if there is no faith. By faith Moses was hid by his parents. That is all very well, that is very beautiful. Moses did not have any faith there, he was a babe. So with each of us, we may be baptised in that way, but then the chapter is for adults. It is not a question here of household baptism, it is a question of the import of baptism for believers, for “as many as have been baptised”.
Ques What would lead us to accept the truth of baptism?
JT If you are in the light of the death of the Lord as sheltering you from the destroying angel who is hovering over Egypt, you feel you must leave that sphere; judgment applies to it.
C And that is why baptism comes in. There is a great deal, typically, in the slaying of the lamb, and the roasting with fire; the bitter herbs, and the unleavened bread: all that had its significance. But all that took place in Egypt.
Rem There is more than faith and the act of the parents in regard to the children.
JT Well, you have to count on God to work in them; but in due time the child has to awaken to its responsibility. The parent’s care cannot always be counted upon.
Ques What about the truth of it in one’s soul; does it disconnect you with what is past?
JT I think the force of baptism is to deliver you from the order of things in which you are found. It is a public change of position; baptism is a public thing.
TMG That is clear in Romans 6.
W You were originally connected with Adam, and baptism severs you from his headship.
TMG Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? There is a new sphere and we are baptised to the One in that sphere.
WK Just as in the type of the Red Sea, they had come completely out from under the power of the bondage of Egypt into liberty and peace; and they could sing that God had brought them to His holy habitation.
JT Yes; you can readily see what a great change it was for Israel to be baptised to a new leader. Pharaoh’s influence was broken, and the spirit of bondage under which they were in Egypt was broken, and now they were under Christ typically. But then, the point here is that, as baptised to Christ, you are baptised to His death, and you must be in keeping with that.
Ques Are there not two sides in Romans 6? We are baptised to His death, and baptised to Himself, who is in this new sphere. Baptism to His death separates us from the old sphere, so to speak.
JT They were baptised to Moses in the cloud, and in the sea. I have no doubt that the cloud now, in Christianity, is the presence of God.
Ques Is it not the Leader?
JT Yes; but the cloud also signifies the divine presence. You are baptised into all that; as in Matthew you are baptised to the name of the Father,
[p. 304] Son, and Holy Spirit: that is the full revelation of God. But then, it is not only the light of that; you are baptised into the sphere where the presence of God is. That is a wonderful thought.
Ques Is it not unfolded in that verse, “as Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life”.
JT I think the idea of the cloud is that the glory was there.
TMG Signifying the presence of Jehovah.
JT Quite so. On the mount of transfiguration there was the glory cloud. Here He is raised from the dead by the glory of the Father; so you are baptised into all that wonderful favour.
TMG And we have a new platform, if one might say so, for us to walk upon.
WM To “walk in newness of life”.
Rem You would say that the teaching of grace is more general, whereas mercy is towards the individual.
JT Yes. Of course, you have the statement here, “shut up all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all”; (Romans 11:32) but mercy is connected with sovereignty, I think. Another point that I think, is important is, that the “old man” is the medium of sin.
Ques What do you understand by that?
JT Well, I understand that the “old man” is a collective thought; it contemplates the race really, the whole race. I think you could not have the idea of the old man in one individual. The power of sin increased with the increase of the race.
TMG It is the whole thing totally gone.
JT Yes.
WM It is Adam’s race.
JT Yes. Take Israel; God had committed Himself to that nation; but it was a nation of men [p. 305] in the flesh. God had committed Himself to it: the result was that sin was at its height there, and it must remain that way unless Christ dies, because God was connected with that nation as it stood.
WM Will you kindly open that up a little for us?
JT Well, the “old man” was that which God recognised. It had been taken up in Israel in a formal way, and many divine privileges had been conferred upon it. Now God was publicly committed to that, but the privileges that God had conferred only strengthened the man; and as the thing increased sin increased. It has to be considered a little bit: if you go into the world, and talk to one unconverted man, an ungodly man, and a few others come together, you will find that the power of sin increases as the company increases. Now, if men are set up and endowed with divine privileges, as is seen in Israel, see what power there is.
TMG Is not the principle of it seen in large societies: the importance of people brought together. That is where you get the power of sin at its height.
JMcF Is that where you get the idea of the body of sin?
JT Yes. Take the case of a godly man in Israel; he had to suffer from that; he could not get out of it; the only way he could get out of Israel was to apostatise.
Rem Israel was not manifested to be the “old man” until after the coming of Christ.
JT Quite so; then the thing came out; but it had been there. Now, when the Lord appeared in the midst of that He had to suffer. The power of sin was there, and that had to continue, and would continue, unless Christ died.
Rem For a godly Jew, after Christ died, faith in Him became the door out of that order of things;
[p. 306] and there is a new platform in the resurrection of that One, where fruit for God comes forth.
Rem And you are in an entirely new system. Our “old man” is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
JT There is no excuse for anyone serving sin now, because you can leave the system.
TMG And that is really Romans 6, that you leave the scene in which sin is.
JT It is a very notable thing that where you get men banded together, especially in a form that has an outward appearance of divine sanction, there you get the power of Satan.
Ques Does not that all come out fully at the cross?
JT Yes, the sin in its totality came out there.
WM We have looked at the “old man” as applying to ourselves individually, not collectively.
JT But it is a collective idea. The power of sin was far greater in the world when Christ appeared than it was in Eden when Adam fell.
TMG I was thinking of the apostle’s expression in Galatians, “I am crucified with Christ”. (Galatians 2:20) Was not he then in the good of what we have in Romans 6?
JT I think he was; and further, Christ lived in him.
TMG Of course, that follows; but I mean it was there seen in the individual.
Ques Do you mean that he personally had entered into what Romans 6 sets forth for all?
Ques It says, “If we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death”. Does that involve that we have entered into the good of baptism?
JT It is a hypothetical statement. If you accept the likeness of His death you will be in the likeness of His resurrection.
JK The if does not imply [p. 307] doubt.
JT It is a statement in which one thing is made to depend on another; but it is brought in in the way of encouragement for the heart.
JK And does it not suppose that all addressed are in it?
JT It is put with an “if”. The answer to our being in the likeness of His death now is that we shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
W I suppose one cannot get the truth of this without one’s affections being engaged, and travelling the way He travelled.
JT Yes. You have the Person before you, and so you accept His death.
TMG We have it following on what is presented in the previous part of the epistle.
JT Yes. It is what you might call the start of the wilderness path here.
TMG We are brought up to a certain point, and we have Christ as the One who was in death, and is out of it.
Rem It says in verse 7, “he that is dead is freed from sin”.
JT That is just a statement, a truism. Christ, when He died, He died unto sin once; that is, He died to that thing once for all; “in that he liveth he liveth unto God”. When He was here, He strove against sin, but He finally died to it.
Ques To whom does he refer in verse 7?
JK Anyone. When you come to the application, in the next verse, it is plural; “Now if we be dead”.
JT The question is raised at the beginning. “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound”?
TMG As if he asked, where are you going to live?
JK Will you continue in that condition?
JT Well now, the happy thing is that you are entitled to reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin,
[p. 308] but alive unto God in Christ. In the Lord’s case death was actual; in our case it is moral; so it works out this way: are you glad to be relieved from the world, or are you in any circle of it? If you are in any circle or fellowship of the world you are in sin, and it has power over you.
TMG Do you not get it in Acts 8 in the case of the eunuch; Philip had preached Jesus to him. “His life is taken from the earth”, (Acts 8:33) and the eunuch gladly says, ‘I go with Him; I drop everything here; I go with the One who has won my heart’.
Rem I suppose it puts us in a position that we are ready for translation?
JT You are just now ready to be raised up; you are buried, and you cannot raise yourself up; God has to do that. I do not know that baptism is a figure of death and resurrection; it is really a figure of death.
JK And burial.
JT Yes. Baptism and a funeral are very much alike. We put a person in the waters of death; that is, he disappears from view. “Enoch was not”. You are not as regards this world.
JK Is it not putting you out of sight? And what that means is, that I do not figure in any part of this world. If you do, you come under the influence of sin.
WM In verse 11 you are to reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
JK Must you not put verse 10 first; that is, what happened to Him in fact? You reckon that to be true of yourself which is literally true of Him.
JT Yes; it is a reckoning of what is literally true in Christ; it is taken up by us in a moral way. People say, what do you live on? we live on this and that. One could understand people in the world belonging to societies and the like; they cannot do [p. 309] without such things. Well, now, can you do without all that? You can; and the secret of it is that you live to God. Take Paul; he says, “whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God”. (2 Corinthians 5:13) I think it is the greatest moral victory, that one can live in the presence of things one would desire naturally, and that one could acquire; but live without them because of living to God. In the wilderness God said, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself”. (Exodus 19:4) The answer to this in us is, that we are for God; we live to God.
G It is a wonderful thing to be borne on eagles’ wings.
JT Yes; and then He proposed to make them a company of priests; and He said, “all the earth is mine”. (Exodus 19:5) That is a great leverage to the soul; you do not need to go in for the earth now. It is a great testimony to what Christianity is when you can live outside the things that the world offers, even although they are within your reach.
The book of Ecclesiastes is one of the most interesting books, because it shows us a man that had abundant means to acquire the world, and found it only vanity and vexation of spirit. Well, there are many men who have that today, but there is one thing they have not got that Solomon had; that is, if they go in for the world today they will not have the wisdom of God in it. The writer of Ecclesiastes went in for it to the full measure, but he was endued with wisdom, and that never failed him, even when he went in for the things of the world. If we go in for it, we do so at our own charges; we cannot have God in it.
WHM He sums it all up as vanity and vexation of spirit.
JT Look at the wisdom he had; and God enabled him to use it. We might have untold millions,
[p. 310] but we may depend upon it we can never get out of it what he got, yet he calls it vanity and vexation of spirit.
JMcF “All the rivers run into the sea yet the sea is not full”; (Ecclesiastes 1:7) they could not fill his heart.
TMG Our portion is above the sun.
JT What I was thinking of specially was, that even though people have means they have not what Solomon had in going in for the world. If he could not get anything satisfying out of it, no one could.
W Is there not a responsibility on the part of the saints to be true to their baptism?
JT It is an inconsistent thing for saints to live in the world if they are baptised to Christ. There is in the world the profession of being baptised to Christ, but people are not in the truth of His death.
TMG The One to whom we are baptised is the Lord, the One to whom everything belongs. We are His, and all that we have is His; so that what we are and have belong to Him.
JT So that your baptism covers not only yourself, but all your belongings. One point that is noteworthy is that the cattle that belonged to the people had to go; not a hoof remained; but there is not a word said about the cattle going into Canaan.
C Everything went through the sea.
JT Yes; so that baptism covers everything, not only yourself, but your family and your whole belongings.
JK Hence the apostle says here, “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Now, another thing is that you are under the Lord, and you are under Christ, so that sin shall not have dominion over you.
TMG A few years ago I remember hearing of a dear old Christian in Co. Tyrone, and he had a troublesome neighbour. This Christian had a wife and children, and a little bit of land, and it took [p. 311] him all his time to support his wife and children. However, his neighbour was very troublesome, and he was practically an infidel, and used to jibe at the Christian about his Bible, and so forth. And one day he said to him, ‘Don’t you profess to believe the Bible?’ and he replied, ‘I do, thank God: it tells me of my blessed Saviour who has loved me, and died for me, and I like to read my Bible’. ‘And do you profess to obey what it says?’ ‘Oh, indeed I do’, said he; ‘however I may fail in it, I believe that what it tells me to do I should do’. ‘Well, does it not say that you are to give to him that asketh of you?’ ‘Yes’, said he, ‘the blessed Lord said that, and I believe that that is right’. ‘Well’, said he, ‘I want your cow’. ‘My cow!’ said he, ‘my cow! she is not mine’. ‘Not yours? Did not I see you buying her in the fair?’ ‘But she is not mine’. ‘To whom does she belong?’ ‘She belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, and He lent her to me to support my little family, and I cannot think of giving her to you’.
JT That is very good.
JK He had the spirit of the thing.
G Would you say a word or two about reckoning.
JT Well, reckoning is the result of light as to Christ’s death. You would scarcely reckon a thing unless you wanted to; and if you are enlightened as to what the world really is, and the import of the death of Christ, you are very thankful that you are entitled to reckon yourself dead to sin; and then what follows is that you are in keeping with the death of the Lord. You have a body, and that body is to be devoted to God.
WM “Yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God”, (Romans 6:13).
JT Yes; it is such a happy deliverance. Now I am clear of the world, it no longer has dominion over [p. 312] my spirit, and I belong to God. I have members, hands and feet, and so forth, and I can use them for God. And as the chapter goes on, it connects what we have been dwelling on with eternal life, not from the divine side as in chapter 5, but from our side; but the road to it is just in that way: “ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. A wonderful end to reach!
G. Is that our side?
JT Yes; chapter 5 shows how it has come in: grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This chapter shows how we touch it; and I think what we have had before us already as to eternal life is very important. It is not introduced where it is a question of the internal formation of the assembly, but it is used in connection with what is external. It is introduced in this section of the epistle, and I scarcely think you find it afterwards.
Ques. In view of what?
JT In view of God’s victory here on earth, and what God brings men into. Chapter 6 places us in correspondence with chapter 5. Thus the question of life is settled. Chapter 7 deals with the one other proposition, the law.
WM Eternal life is not wages?
JT No; it is on the principle of gift; it is too great a thing to be a compensation simply; it is presented thus in a sense in chapter 2:7, but really it is a question of God’s purpose for man.
Ques And that goes further than what Adam lost?
JT Yes.
WM Is it not important to notice that it is given us in Him; it is an “act of favour ... in Christ Jesus our Lord”.
Ques What did you say about an act of favour?
JT It is an act of favour; it is “the act of favour of God”; showing, I think, that it is the full divine thought of blessing for man. The result of Joseph’s administration was that the Egyptians were all bought over for Pharaoh, not only their land, and their cattle, but themselves: and so here the effect of Christ’s administration is that we are bought over for God, absolutely.