BAPTISM AND FELLOWSHIP
BAPTISM AND FELLOWSHIP
JT What makes the history of Moses so interesting, especially in connection with young Christians, is that it connects the faith of the parents with the decision of the child afterwards. It shows that the decision of the child afterwards was in keeping with the parents’ faith.
Rem They saw he was a goodly child.
JT Yes; I think there was some reflection of Christ in him that faith saw.
Rem Something that would indicate to them that he was God-given.
JT The Spirit’s comment on the passage in the New Testament helps us greatly; “By faith, Moses when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. By faith, Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season”. (Hebrews 11:23 - 25) That is, his decision when he came to years of understanding was in keeping with the faith of his parents.
Rem Therefore it becomes very helpful for all, but especially for young Christians; it is a great thing to come to a decision.
JT I think the greatest initial difficulty that Christians have is to come to a point of decision, especially if worldly circumstances are favourable, as in Moses’ case.
Rem To choose between the people of God and the pleasures of sin.
JT Yes; Moses deliberately made up his mind to abandon a position that was in every way to his advantage as [p. 28] a man in this world.
TMG He might have been a great man in Pharaoh’s palace.
JSA It sometimes comes in in a subtle way; some might think they would do better, perhaps, if they remained in favourable circumstances, instead of identifying themselves with the reproach of Christ.
JT Yes; and in Moses’ case the reproach was regarded in its true light; it was esteemed greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. He esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.
Rem Why is the only alternative to the reproach of Christ, the pleasures of sin?
JT There is no middle ground. Young people regard many things in the world as harmless; but they are not really harmless. Any pleasure in connection with the world is sinful.
Rem I suppose the great aim in the world is to supply pleasure, so that souls may be ensnared. If the pleasure side of the world was eliminated there would not be much to go in for; and whilst certain things may be regarded as innocent pleasures, yet they form part of the world-system, and it is a question therefore as to judging the system. It is not exactly to determine whether this or that is harmless, but to determine to what system it is attached.
TMG What do you understand by the world-system?
JT I think the present world-system began with Babel; Genesis 9. It is a system in which the greatness of man necessarily figures; and I think the book of Exodus contemplates that it began directly under wicked influence. Pharaoh was a wicked influence; he was actuated by murderous intent for personal motives; the command to destroy the male children was wicked; and the question is therefore whether [p. 29] we are enabled to determine what the system is that is under such an influence as that. The king had arisen who “knew not Joseph”. Christ is disregarded by the influences that dominate the world.
JSA Are not young people apt to think of the pleasures of sin as something absolutely wicked; but what is sin? It is following my own will; it may be what appears to be quite harmless, but the question is whether it is according to God’s order of things.
JT The question is, whether it is connected with a lawless system.
TMG The will of man in contrast to the will of God.
Rem But faith will renounce the whole system, not merely this thing or that thing.
JT That is the thought. It was impossible that the children should be overlooked in the world’s system, because the enemy made a point of retaining the children. Pharaoh at the outset sought to have the males destroyed; and at the end he would have fain retained the children.
JSA I think that is very important, because it shows how very strongly Satan is working to get hold of the young.
Rem A single person may have the mind of God.
JT A parent is in a better position to judge as to God’s mind than any other person, because the interest in the heart of the parent is but a reflection of what is in God’s heart, and therefore when you have children, the exercises you get if you are with God are to enable you to realise what God had to endure with man.
Rem It is most interesting to me to see the way the faith of the parents comes out in Hebrews 11.
JT Yes, it is the parents in that chapter: [p. 30] the Spirit takes account there of the father and mother, whereas the mother only is spoken of in Exodus 2.
Rem They recognised God’s claim or God’s intent, for their child; they would not recognise the authority of Pharaoh or the enemy.
JT They did not fear it. That is a great point for a parent: “they were not afraid of the king’s commandment”. (Hebrews 11:23) When you transfer that to Christianity, the point is that all power is vested in the Lord; and it is in the light of that you are not afraid of the king’s command.
JSA It is quite within the bounds of possibility that we might reach a crisis when the State would interfere, and it might be a question of choice between the king’s command and the Lord.
Rem They were not afraid of the king’s command here; they hid Moses three months.
JT The king’s command required that the children should be given up. I think what has been called attention to is very important, because as time goes on the ruling powers will come more and more under the influence of evil; the anti-christian spirit is now creeping into the governments that were regarded as the best; and it works out in the claim to educate the children. As claiming title to see after the education of the children you may depend upon it the enemy has something in view. No government will claim today the right to teach the grown-up people. Every man, they say, has the right to his own opinions; that is recognised everywhere; but, then, what about the education of the children?
Rem I suppose as God’s authority is publicly set aside, the power of the authority from beneath would become more marked.
JT Exactly; we can be thankful where the power of God is recognised; but then, the enemy is at work, and is gradually introducing principles that [p. 31] will nullify it. We have to decide whether we will submit to the king’s command or the Lord, and I think we can well afford to do the latter, because the Lord has all power. I think we ought to baptise our children in the light of the Lord having a right to them, and power to save them.
JSA It is a good thing to have such a sense of the greatness of Christianity that we impress upon our children the fact that the Lord is greater than all else.
Rem Will you say a little more about the baptism of our children.
JT Well, there are a good many sides to it, but this is one, that the Lord has all power. You have confidence in baptising your children, because you can reckon on His support, and that is a very great point. The apostle says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house”. (Acts 16:31) Now, I think it will be observed, as a rule, that only the first part of that text is used for the preaching of the gospel; the second part is not introduced, whereas the jailer acted upon the second part: he was baptised, he and all his straightway; he rejoiced with all his house, having believed in God. He believed the full gospel.
TMG What is there in Moses being placed in the basket by the riverside?
JT Another side of baptism is that you do not accept your child on the ground of nature: on the ground of nature your children are entitled to nothing but death.
Rem What are we to understand by not accepting our children on the ground of nature?
JT You regard them as divinely given, but then God looks for faith in you, and faith recognises distinctly that they can only be accepted on the ground of death.
TMG Is not that the point in Hannah’s bringing [p. 32] her child to Eli and offering the sacrifice? Is there anything of that in the case of Moses being practically delivered to death?
JT I think that was the idea; however little the mother may have understood it, God allowed it to take that form, so that we might have spiritual instruction in it; the child was virtually drawn out of death.
Rem There is evidently much significance in the fact, as his name means drawn out of water.
JT Another thing, you introduce your children into the positive system of things; they are baptised to the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I think it is important to see that you own the Lord’s authority and give them up to Him, but they are introduced into the full light of the revelation of God.
Rem People often refer too much to the negative side and not enough to the positive.
JT Look what you have been brought to! In baptising your child you impress upon it that it has been brought into the full light of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Rem I suppose if we were more in the true light of it as parents we should impress the child more with it.
Rem The responsibility rests with the parents as well as the child in connection with baptism.
JT I think all the responsibility rests with the parents until the child becomes responsible. It is said of Moses that when he came to years, he refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. It seems to me that in the case of the Lord in childhood we have indicated the period of responsibility in regard to children. I think that until the age of twelve the Spirit of God holds the parent specially responsible for the child.
[p. 33] Luke gives us the history of the Lord from the outset. What He was as a Babe is recorded, what He was at twelve years old, and then what He was at thirty years. The Spirit records all these things The allusion to twelve has a meaning,
Rem What would you say Moses gained by turning his back on Pharaoh’s court.
JT The comment of the Spirit on it shows that he esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.
Rem Would you say he gained very great distinction in God’s system?
JT Moses deliberately weighed one thing against another, and he chose affliction with God’s people.
Rem I suppose seeing the end really helped him as to his decision: “he endured as seeing him who is invisible”. (Hebrews 11:27)
JT Yes. I think people may see in Moses on the one hand what baptism involves; it is connected with the parents; it is a question of the faith of the parents, and all the activity that follows. You can understand how exercised his mother must have been, and how God answered her faith in giving him back to her to nurse. On the other hand, when the time came Moses made his decision, and I think then he came into fellowship; that was his decision.
TMG He associated himself with the people of God.
JT Yes, that is what fellowship means. It means a deliberate committal of oneself to the people of God.
Ques Does not the commission of Moses’ sister show how God was honouring the parents’ faith?
JT It all indicates how faith in your parents, or in those who are interested in you, acts for you; children have very little apprehension of the exercises of parent’s faith in regard to them.
Ques Is it not important for young people [p. 34] to realise the great compensation in being identified with God?
JT I think so, and to be identified with the people of God; because you will notice Moses chose rather to suffer affliction with the people, of God; that is simply the Old Testament way of showing how the believer comes into fellowship.
Ques Would you say at the age of responsibility the question would arise in a child’s mind in regard to having to choose for himself; he has arrived at a point when his parents are no longer able to choose for him, and he sees in the Christian circle a place of salvation in contrast to the world?
JT Yes, it becomes a question of what kind of society I am going to have. It refers, I think, to the exercises that go on in the soul of the believer. Think of Moses surrounded with all the magnificence of the court of the king: well, he heard about the people of God; he knew about them, and he deliberately commits himself to them.
Ques Did he not look on to the future? He had respect to the recompense of the reward?
JT Yes.
Rem It is an important point to arrive at when we have to decide whether we will accept the reproach of Christ.
JT It is remarkable how intelligent people were in those days with comparatively little light. Moses had an idea of an end in view, and of God’s people, being under reproach. Well, the gospel sets out all that to us, so that young believers might see what there is for them now, and what there is in the end.
Rem The difficulty is that many among the people of God in an outward way have not taken up the reproach, and I suppose they do not get the compensation.
JSA It was not simply the reproach of Christ,
[p. 35] but it was with the people themselves he was identified. In connection with that I was thinking of the New Testament scripture: “Be not thou ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of me his prisoner”. (2 Timothy 1:8) You have there the two things: you have the reproach, and you identify yourself with the persons who are in the truth.
Rem That is where the reproach lies.
JSA Suppose a young person says, Well, I accept what you say. The answer is, Very well, then take your place with it.
TMG Onesiphorus was “not ashamed of my chain, but sought me out diligently and found me”, (2 Timothy 1:16,17) Paul says.
Rem I suppose when our children reach what you speak of as the age of responsibility we might look for some confession from them as to their faith in Christ.
JT That is what we should expect.
Ques A good deal depends on the way they are trained, so that they might be prepared for the path?
Ques And then I suppose they would come more immediately under the Lord’s dominion?
JT Yes, they are under your dominion up till that time.
JAM They may come to responsibility then, but your responsibility does not cease.
JT Their responsibility does not cancel yours.
Rem Up to that age the Lord’s discipline is exercised through the parents, but after that age they would come more immediately under the Lord’s discipline.
JT Yes; you recognise that the Lord will take charge of the child, and that in due time he will receive the Holy Spirit.
Ques Would you say it was the Spirit’s seal to the faith of [p. 36] the parent Well, I do not think the Spirit seals the faith of the parent; there must be faith in the child before the child gets the Spirit.
Rem The faith of the parent is acknowledged by God: take for instance that verse — “train up a child the way he should go”. (Proverbs 22:6)
JT I think so. Every time you think of your child you say that which is born of the flesh is flesh; that is, you are made to feel that, so that if God does not operate in the child there is nothing for Him.
Ques Abraham said, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before thee”. (Genesis 17:18) Is not that the desire that governs every parent?
JT Ishmael was the wrong man; he was the man after the flesh. Isaac was the child of promise.
Rem I suppose we would be very glad indeed if our children were to live before the Lord.
JT Oh, but you want them to live in the light of Another. You do not want them to live here in nature; what you cherish for yourself you cherish for your child, and that is, that they should live in the light of Christ. That is the only life worth living.
Ques Do I understand that it was a want of faith in Abraham when he prayed that?
JT I think so.
Rem Being baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit covers the whole ground.
Rem Cast out the bond-woman and her son.
TMG When Isaac gets his rightful place Ishmael goes out.
JT It is said about Abraham in commendation of him that he commanded his house and his children after him. He ruled his house.
Ques Do you mean that his character would come out in his true children?
JT I think that what Noah failed in comes out [p. 37] in Abraham. God did not commit government to Abraham, but Abraham recognised that the testimony as to government was there, and he answered to it. I suppose, if we come into fellowship, if we commit ourselves to the reproach of the people of God, that God takes us up and uses us.
Rem But Moses had to retire; it seemed for a time as if he was not of much use.
JT What you see is that if the parent does his part of discipline, God will do the rest. He will see to the discipline of the servant. You cannot send your son to college that he might be made a servant of Christ. God takes him up and makes a servant of him.
Ques I suppose the education commences early when they come into fellowship.
JT I think so; they come to see what the mind of God is; God has a people here, and the children’s energies now, if truly identified with them, are bent on the prosperity of that people. You may try to do right things and do them in the wrong way; but Moses had the right idea in slaying the Egyptian.
Ques When we speak of coming into fellowship do you look at it as the answer really to the Spirit’s, work in them?
JT Oh, yes; there is a definite decision; the Holy Spirit gives you that. What is it that leads you to love the Lord’s people? That is the work of the Spirit.
Rem I thought it was really the Spirit who brings into fellowship.
JT Fellowship is your putting your hand out; you commit yourself to a partnership. No one can bring you in.
Rem That is important; we cannot bring into fellowship in a [p. 38] sense.
JT You cannot bring your children into fellowship. Your responsibility in regard to your children does not come into the assembly at all. It is a great mistake to think that a father should have any responsibility over his children there. The Lord is supreme directly you come into the assembly.
JSA It is a great thing for parents to so understand the greatness of the assembly, that we, by our lives impress on our children, that it is the greatest thing; then it is a question of the Spirit making that good to the child.
JT Yes, and the child must remember that he has to put his hand out, so to speak, and identify himself with that position.
Rem I suppose there comes a moment in the history of every true child of God when he has to choose Christ or the world.
JT I think so; and another thing comes in there, that is, what we come to. I fear that it is, in most cases, just coming into the meeting. We come into fellowship, but it is Christian fellowship, or it is nothing. What does that introduce you into? It is that you have to do with a new order of things. The system itself is moral; it is not a system for sight; it is a faith system.
TMG It is another sphere.
JT I think it is; but it is a faith system.
TMG It is not merely what the eye rests on.
JT You can see the saints.
TMG You might see the saints and not the place.
JT Yes, and the saints may fail, but the system is immutable.
Rem You might be in fellowship and not break bread.
JT I think so, but everyone who has intelligence would break bread. The breaking of bread is the symbol of fellowship.
[p. 39] Rem The breaking of bread does not bring you into fellowship?
TMG You might be breaking bread and not be In fellowship.
Ques What qualifies you for fellowship?
JT Well, the saints have to decide as to fellowship, because on your coming in whatever may be attached to you is attached to them now; and you should see that consistency with the death of Christ is the test. I would like to dwell upon the faith system because if your soul gets into that nothing can shake you; because that is unshakeable.
JSA I remember a time when placed in certain circumstances I looked to the brethren around me in whom I had confidence, only to be disappointed; and I remember going home one night and saying, Well, can it be worth while going on with them. It was only for a moment, however. The system abides. Nothing else will keep you.
JT I think what you see in Moses is, that if you are true, when you come into fellowship, the Lord will take you up. You see that the people of God require help; there never has been a time when they did not. Moses saw that, and he undertook to help them. He did not act according to God’s mind, but still the Spirit recognises it in due time. It is remarkable that in Acts 7 He charges the people with rejecting Moses in this connection.
Before Moses learned his lesson, he says, as it were, ‘I am going to deliver the people’. He had to learn that God was going to do it, although through him.
TMG Is not that what every servant has to learn?
JT A young man is liable to say, ‘I am going to do it;’ but Moses had to learn that God would deliver His people. God says to him at Horeb, “I am come down to deliver them”. (Exodus 3:8)
[p. 40] Ques What light has a soul as to the Lord in coming into fellowship?
JT It would be hard to say. You can hardly say what has drawn you to the people of God, but there is something there that draws you. You see how Ruth was drawn and she said, “thy people shall be my people”. (Ruth 1:16)
Rem That was the outgoing of affection. It would not do to make it merely an outward thing. It would be the activity of affection, no doubt.