CHRIST IN GETHSEMANE
[p. 421] CHRIST IN GETHSEMANE
Luke 22:39 - 46; Luke 24:50 - 53
RSS I am thankful you suggested that we should read something from chapter 22, because I suppose there is no scripture that illustrates our subject, the humanity of Christ, more than it does. He is seen there distinctly as Man.
JT And wholly for the Father’s will.
WHG Would you say His agony was solely on account of the cup which the Father gave Him? You do not get man or Satan here, but the Father. He goes through it all in communion with the Father. Satan comes again at the cross, but here it is the cup which the Father has given Him which caused Him such terrible agony.
WB-s Is not that seen at the cross too? The Father’s name comes in at the beginning and at the end. There is no thought of being victim here. It is rather a perfect Man for the pleasure of God. So the Father’s name occurs twice at the cross.
WHG He is entirely alone here with the Father.
RSS “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me” (Matthew 27:46) does not occur in this gospel. That is Matthew and Mark. The victim side is not seen so much in Luke.
AFM What do you think is the significant thought in this gospel in connection with Gethsemane?
JT It is the mount of Olives here. I think the connection is to show that He is in touch with the Father. Mount Olivet was His retreat, apparently the place of heavenly associations. That was where He dwelt, so to say.
RSS “And every man went unto his own house. Jesus went unto the mount of Olives”. (John 7:53, John 8:1)
JT Yes. From the way things are mentioned, it seems it was the place of His associations and [p. 422] communion with the Father when released from the demands of active service. He spent His nights there.
AFM That is beautifully in keeping with the character of Luke. Does it not say Gethsemane in another gospel? Will you distinguish between Gethsemane and Olivet?
JT There is no distinction as to the position, because Gethsemane was on the slope of mount Olivet so far as we know, but the fact that mount Olivet is mentioned has its own meaning.
WGB Would Gethsemane be connected more with His sufferings?
JT I think so — the word signifies wine-press. Gethsemane was the spot He always resorted to, but here it is called the mount of Olives, and there can be no doubt that it was the place of His communion with the Father, retreating from His ordinary labours in Jerusalem, so that He receives the cup from the Father’s hand here, in all the consciousness of His relationship with the Father. His perfection as Man is seen in His entire submission.
GBM You get here not only the place where He dwelt, but that He lived by the Father.
AFM Do you connect this with Hebrews 5, His prayers with strong crying and tears?
JT It is an allusion to this, bringing out the reality of His manhood. He “was heard in that he feared”. (Hebrews 5:7)
RSS In Matthew and Mark it speaks of the mount of Olives, and Gethsemane, in Luke it speaks of the mount of Olives, and in John it says, “he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron where was a garden”. (John 18:1) These are the four. What you say about the mount of Olives is exceedingly instructive.
JT The fact that it is only a garden in John has not the same interest attached to it. Places [p. 423] and circumstances seen in connection with the Lord in John have not the same importance as in the other gospels, His Person being so prominent. Interest is always centred in the Person in John, not where He was.
AAT It does say He often resorted there.
RSS The emphasis would be on the word He. Is there not some contrast between the mount of Olives, in the way you have been speaking of it, and Bethany? The mount of Olives was the place where He retreated into the father’s presence.
JT I think Bethany is earthly associations; His associations with the remnant.
RSS But when He went to heaven it was from Bethany. Those most precious links were severed there.
JT It is the scene of His earthly associations; that is to say, what He found in the remnant of Israel, but then He lived by the Father. Although finding much in the disciples here, His springs were in the Father. Each of us has to live of Christ, although finding great support in the saints. “So he that eateth me, even he shall live by me”. (John 6:57) You find great support in the circle of the saints here, but it will not suffice; it helps you, but the source of supply is in Christ.
GAT I suppose Mary proved that when she came to the grave. She had the saints, the disciples and the angels, but that would not satisfy her heart. She wanted Christ.
JT You must go to the source. It is important to emphasise the point of living by Christ. The Lord, in the exercise of His service, clearly lived by the Father.
WHC You were saying the Christian circle alone is not sufficient for us, but in the Christian circle we get the grace by which we are helped, and we help one another into Christ’s sphere, where our blessings lie.
JT I was thinking that believers may rely too much on what is found in the meetings; although we can scarcely attach too much importance to Christian association, yet each one has to cultivate living by Christ in his individual history. I think that the mount of Olives indicates that side. Christ lived by the Father. Sweet were the associations at Bethany which He enjoyed, we know from other passages. He found a retreat there, and so do we; we find a congenial retreat among the saints, and refreshment and ministry, but with all that we have to live by Christ.
RSS I think this is exceedingly helpful in connection with the mount of Olives and Bethany, and I am sure we shall all be glad to profit by it.
JT John 6 is a very great study for our souls in that way. The Son of man coming down in order to be food for us, so that we might live; thus we are independent of the world. A Christian ought to cultivate a certain independency of soul through the resources that he has in Christ. The more you are independent in this way, the more you support and contribute to others. Each one has to learn what it is to live by Christ. “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me”. (John 6:57)
WHC We must feed on Christ as having died, and thus His characteristics and traits appear in us. The manna was for the wilderness, in contrast to the old corn of the land, and that feeds us for the continuance in service down here. In John 6 it is different.
AFM You made a suggestion that we should be independent in a certain way, through our living by Christ.
JT I was endeavouring to point out that in Luke we have indicated that the Lord retreated to [p. 425] the mount of Olives, meaning that as a Man He lived by the Father, and so He takes the cup there.
AFM Would it not greatly help us in connection with our fellowship in the Christian company?
JT I think it is a great thing to cultivate the habit of living by Christ.
GAT Is that liable to encourage the thought that one can live anywhere without the saints, and be just as well off?
JT Well, the Lord surely corrects that in Himself. He looked for comforters. Even He sought fellowship and sympathy. The allusion in Psalm 55 to Judas shows what the Lord had in the disciples. They “took sweet counsel together and walked unto the house of God in company”. (Psalm 55:14) All that is to be found in the circle of the saints.
GBM Towards the close of our Lord’s life, the love and sympathy He found at Bethany stand in strong contrast to the hatred in Jerusalem.
JT It is well to keep the balance. The Lord in His own life showed us how He valued friendship and associations; the reality of His humanity is seen in this. In the faith of our souls we live by Christ, but then we have divinely given affections which flow out toward our brethren. We want these affections to have their play, and to have them reciprocated, and in that you have support. But then, we, must live by Christ.
RSS Fellowship with the saints does not hinder our retiring to the mount of Olives, where it is a question between the soul and God.
JT When each goes to his own home he has the Lord. You can always turn to the Lord.
GAT Would you say it is possible for a person to be in Christian company and not know much about the Lord’s company?
JT I think it is possible, and he may even get gain from it. You would encourage souls to come [p. 426] under Christian influence, but all that is short of living by Christ. One has to cultivate the habit of living by Christ.
AAT Is there a parallel thought in Naomi?
JT Yes. We know that Ruth was influenced by Naomi and gained by the company of Naomi, but she ultimately lived by Boaz.
LTF Otherwise you would have to be carried all the way.
JT Yes. As coming to Christ, you do not depend on what you find among the brethren for sustenance, but you are greatly helped by what you find amongst them.
AB Paul says to Philemon, “let me have joy of thee in the Lord; refresh my bowels in the Lord”. (Philemon 20)
GBM Is your thought illustrated in what the Lord said to the disciples, “Pray that ye enter not into temptation”?
JT He had asked them to watch with Him, that He might have their sympathy; and it is thus that Gethsemane serves to bring out the humanity of our Lord in a very special way. Here He was taking the cup from the Father’s hand, recognising what it was, and yet recoiling from it. All was perfection in Man.
RSS The very expression He used is wonderful: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me”. It is so befitting in a Man perfectly subject to the will of the One whom He was addressing, and His intense feeling coming out in that expression; and He adds; “not my will, but thine, be done”. The words are beautiful. The exact words are given us.
JT And how really He prayed, being in an agony! It is the human side; perfect, but human. “Being in an agony he prayed more earnestly”.
GAT Is not this period of the Lord’s life overlooked a good bit when we speak of the sufferings [p. 427] of Christ? We often speak of the cross. Are not His sufferings here?
JT They are anticipated here. They are not atoning sufferings as yet, but He is here as Man meeting indignation and wrath. It is all before Him. He measured it. He knew what the cup involved, and He was taking it in all that intelligence.
JB “He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast”. He was alone and yet they were near enough to witness it:
WB-s Does this scene have application to ourselves in principle? We often fail in times of sorrow because we are not going on with God and drawing from Him as our spring. In Psalm 27 the one desire of the psalmist is to dwell in the house of the Lord, all the days of his life, to behold the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple. Then it goes on to say that in the time of trouble the Lord would hide him in His pavilion. Is that a similar thought to what we get here; first you are in His presence and then when sorrow comes, you are hidden and are proof against the enemy; so He could say; “weep not for me, but weep for yourselves”? (Luke 23:28)
RSS I think we would be immense gainers if we learned the lesson of Gethsemane, and saw that the Lord passed through His great sorrow in anticipation; I think we are privileged to do the same thing. I remember two sisters who were intensely devoted to their mother whose life was about to close. I knew their circumstances well, and said to them, ‘I feel deeply for you in view of her being taken away’. One of them said, ‘We have gone through all that’. I think that was a beautiful illustration of this. They had lost their mother in spirit and so when the time came that she was actually taken away, they were prepared for it.
WJN The Lord here is the calmest of all when the [p. 428] moment came.
RSS Because of having already gone through it in anticipation.
WB-t Did you say we should cultivate independence of spirit as Christians?
JT I mean in the sense that you are not dependent on the world, or even on the saints for your support. You live by Christ.
WHG You are pleased to contribute to one another. “Happy are ye if ye do them”, (John 13:17) the Lord said.
RSS You were speaking of John 6. “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me”. (John 6:57) It was in connection with “live by me” that you spoke of independence, that you are not dependent on others.
JT How is one to stand alone unless one knows this? Otherwise if the brethren fail, you are done for.
RSS And that may come to pass.
GAT Paul was in the good of this when he said, “all they which are in Asia be turned away from me”. (2 Timothy 1:15) The Lord stood by him.
JT I think that is a very important consideration for us, because that may happen, and you have to be prepared for possible emergencies; so that if the saints do not stand by you, you can stand as supported by the Lord. He stood alone. Clearly He had no support, although He looked for it from the disciples. They went to sleep and did not supply what He looked for.
JB “Ye believe in God, believe also in me”. (John 14:1)
RML Even at best if we are leaning on the brethren we are always in danger, for there is always a weak spot.
JT Quite so. Christians are not like the government of this country, which will not admit anyone who is likely to be a charge. That is not the Christian spirit. We are prepared for a public charge if we [p. 429] are in the spirit of Christ. But then each saint ought to be ashamed to be a public charge. There ought to be exercise why it is so. I do not deprecate temporal need. I am not speaking of that, because in the government of God one may be deprived of the means of temporal support and the Scriptures exhort that we should support certain persons; but then no one should be a public charge spiritually, because spiritual means are always available. In the government of God temporal means may be withdrawn from us for discipline, but spiritual support is never withdrawn. Therefore, if any Christian has to be carried by the saints it is clear there is some defect in the soul.
RSS Where there are aged saints, it is blessed that there is a place for them in the house of God. In the world, when we are in our prime, people have plenty of use for us, but when we get old and feeble it is quite otherwise. Then on the other hand, it is very beautiful that even little children have a place in connection with the house of God and we are glad to see them in the meeting.
JT I go fully with that. If we are in the spirit of Christianity we are prepared to support others.
RSS Your contrast between this country and the house of God is very suggestive.
JT Why should I be a public charge spiritually; why not have something oneself, because the means of spiritual support are always available. The Lord is great enough to be food for the world, we are told in John 6.
WB-s An old person sometimes is brighter and stronger in spiritual things than one younger.
JT That is because they live by Christ. One has had opportunity to see old Christians bright and happy, having no complaints and no murmurings, but bright in the Lord, although largely withdrawn from what we speak of as the Christian circle. The secret is they have learned to live by Christ. Psalm 84 [p. 430] supports your remarks as to the house of God. “Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O Lord of hosts, my King, and my God”. (Psalm 84:3) There is a place there for them. But then each individual ought to be exercised that he should not be a public charge.
RSS The sparrow indicating the worthless one, “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?” (Matthew 10:29) and the swallow, the restless one — “as the swallow by flying”. (Proverbs 26:2)
JT Yes, they find a place on God’s altars. That is where sacrifice is made. It requires sacrifice from the saints to provide for such.
GAT What are the marks of a person who has become a public charge?
JT His whole spiritual life is made up of what he finds amongst the saints. He does not cultivate the soul exercise that feeds on Christ.
GAT I was thinking that you get an example in Peter’s wife’s mother. She had a fever, and fever marks one that is always complaining and not satisfied.
WB-s Lot went on with Abraham, but when he left him he went to pieces.
RSS I think in these few verses in chapter 22 we have the most remarkable expression of the Lord’s perfect humanity; at this moment an angel came and strengthened Him. He not only, when here upon earth as in chapter 8, was ministered to by women and supported in His temporal needs, but here an angel strengthens Him. He gives them that blessed place. They never had such a service as that before.
JT Instead of using His own inherent power, He accepts angelic ministration.
WB-t Is that the proof that He was [p. 431] human?
JT I think so; instead of the cup being removed, He is supported.
RSS The Lord being God did not alter His being truly Man.
JT It is apparent here. Elsewhere He said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” (Matthew 26:53) John says of those that came to take Him that “they went backward and fell to the ground”, (John 18:6) but here He is in man’s position,
and accepts angelic ministration.
RSS The Lord as Man was absolutely perfect as such; His feelings and thoughts were exactly that of a perfect Man in those circumstances.
JT He would fail of being food for our souls otherwise.
RSS And we should get no benefit from Him as an example. Most Christians lose because they do not distinguish between the deity and the humanity of Christ. Mr. Raven greatly helped us years ago when he made the remark, that we cannot contemplate the Lord Jesus as Man and as God at the same moment.
JT He is the same Person, unchanged and unchangeable, only that He is viewed in these two distinct lights. We are entitled to consider Him as a divine Person and also to consider that Person in Man’s condition.
RSS This scripture is contemplating Him as Man. Of course, we ever retain in our souls the sense of who He is. And that is what makes it so blessed, but at the same time, we have an immense advantage over those we are reading about. I have thought that perhaps none of the disciples fully knew who He was; it dawned upon them very slowly.
JT As a matter of fact, to have the light of it requires that you should have the Spirit.
RSS Our brother asks, What about Peter’s [p. 432] confession, of the Lord in Matthew 16? He confessed, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. (Matthew 16:16) He got a glimpse of what we are speaking about, but it did not characterise him, for the next moment the Lord had to rebuke him.
AFM Thinking of the scene before us as to the Lord’s conflict here, even to sweat as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground, was that in view of the cup itself?
JT Satan was here really to bring to bear on His spirit the awful pressure of what was about to happen. The Lord is on the banks of the Jordan, as it were. Satan had left Him for a season, Luke 4:13, but now he has returned to Him in another form; not now to offer Him the kingdoms of this world, but to bring to bear upon His spirit the awfulness of that which was about to happen; the awfulness of death as implying divine judgment.
RSS Do you think Satan suggested the thought of judgment and death? I am distinguishing between the Lord passing through the judgment during the three hours of darkness and then death afterwards.
JT They are all coupled together. Death is penalty. How it came into Satan’s hand is another matter, but primarily it is penalty and Satan brought it to bear here on the Lord; but the Lord viewed it in the light of what it was in God’s mind. It was a cup of wrath. The Lord viewed it in that light, and Satan pressed it upon Him, and pressing it upon Him brings out the infiniteness of His perfection as Man. He recoiled from it and that was perfection; knowing what was in it, He could not but recoil from it; it meant the forsaking of God. But then the other principle that governed Him was obedience, and having come to obey, having taken man’s place, His obedience is perfect, so He says, “not my will, but thine, be done”. That is the glory of it. What the Psalmist saw in the heavens is now perfectly expressed on earth. “The heavens declare the glory of God”. (Psalm 19:1) Now it is at the lowest point that the glory shines. That is what Man is for God. Man is God’s glory, and that is seen here — “not my will, but thine be done”.
WGR What is the power of darkness?
JT Satan is that. I would say all that Satan had under his control was used to darken. The world-system is darkening, and the Lord said, “this is your hour and the power of darkness”. (Luke 22:53) The world-system was all brought to bear against Him.
AFM How do you connect these scriptures with the word in Hebrews, “having been heard because of his piety”. (Hebrews 5:7) I was thinking of Psalm 16 where He says, “Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy, at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore”. (Psalm 16:11) Would that be the right connection?
JT Yes. It was due to God morally, in the Son becoming Man, that man’s place should be maintained, and that in that place He should honour God in every possible connection. On that account He was entitled to live, but instead of living, He dies to carry out God’s will. He could not rightly deprive God of that life in which God had so much pleasure; the Lord would not have died of Himself. He says, “I have received this commandment of my Father;” (John 10:18) and here He proves that in doing it, it is the Father’s will.
RSS That is one side of it, the other is, that He gave up His life for us.
JT That is what we had in the earlier part of the chapter; He laid down His life for us.
RSS What you say is very beautiful. He would not lay down His life without a commandment from the Father, as taking man’s place. We are encouraged to lay down our lives for the brethren.
JT That is the new commandment really.
[p. 434] The new commandment is the filling out of the commandment that He had received from the Father. He had received from the Father the commandment to die, but His love delighted in the liberty. He had delight in the liberty to die so that He could carry out the divine pleasure, and remove the man that was so intolerable to God here.
RSS Paul could say that he was not only willing to be bound, but also to die.
JT That was in the strength of the new commandment. The proof of love is that ye love one another “as I have loved you”. The proof is in laying down your life. You can see how full it was in the case of the Lord. There was the world-system and man in it to God’s utmost displeasure. It gave Him liberty to remove vicariously the man that was such a cause of grief to God; and then, on the other hand, He was free to express His love for His own.
RSS What do you mean by vicariously?
JT That the consequence of the Lord’s dying, is that the man that dishonoured God is removed. He is not literally removed. That is why I used the word “vicariously”. What we are is removed vicariously in the One who took our place.
AAT Is that the same thought as propitiation?
JT Yes; and on the ground of it He can give the Spirit, so as to bring in an order of man for His pleasure.
AAT But the Lord had in His mind the saints individually when He was on the cross.
JT He thought of us, but of God first. We little understand what a grief it has been to God to have rebellious man here. Every father who has had a rebellious son, knows something of what God has had to endure from man. Deuteronomy refers to it in chapter 21. Now the Lord took account of all that, and the Father’s commandment enabled Him to set it all aside vicariously.
RSS [p. 435] These scriptures would present the two sides of it; “who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God”; (Hebrews 9:14) that is one side. The other is what Paul says: “who loved me and gave himself for me”. (Galatians 2:20)
JB You were saying yesterday the body is to carry out the will of God, and also it is given for us. The two thoughts are there.
JT Yes. On the one hand He says “a body hast thou prepared me ... I come ... to do thy will, O God”. (Hebrews 10:5,7) That is seen here. On the other hand. He says to the disciples, “This is my body which is for you”. (1 Corinthians 11:24) There it is devoted to them.
JB And in that way the wonderful fact of the incarnation comes into view.
JT Yes, you get both sides there, Godward and what it is to us.
GAT Would you say a word about the Lord being alone on the cross? I have heard it said the Father never forsook Him; that the Father was with Him.
JT You cannot say that. You must allow the thought of abandonment, or you would not have atonement.
WB-s The Father’s name is never connected with separation. It is not My Father, but “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
JT No, but then we cannot separate God from the Father: “to us there is one God, the Father”. (1 Corinthians 8:6) It is the same Person, only on the cross you can understand that the thought of relationship ceases when He was abandoned. When the abandonment is over He prayed to the Father and said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”. (Luke 23:46) But during the forsaking there could be no link. You could not have atonement if there were.
WB-s Only it is not given in that connection.
JT Because it is a question of dealing with [p. 436] sin.
The majesty of God was insulted by sin, and the Lord was the Sin-Bearer; He had to do with God.
WHG That would be in the three hours.
WB-t What is the force of, “thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns”. (Psalm 22:21)
JT These represent the world’s power. Pilate was the instrument of the world power, but God heard Him from that point, and the next thing is, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren” (Psalm 22:22) and the answer to God hearing Him from the horns of the unicorns is resurrection.
R.S.S. When was that cry?
JT It would be after the three hours of darkness. God would not leave Him in the meshes of the power of evil here. He was heard from that point.
RSS What our brother drew our attention to at the beginning is very good. He addresses the Father before the three hours of darkness, and after the three hours of darkness, but during the three hours of darkness He cries: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46) You could not say there was any conscious link with God there.
JT He was completely forsaken, and this cannot be emphasised too much. He, as bearing sin, was under God’s displeasure at that time; there was total abandonment, otherwise there could not be a true dealing with sin. At our best, none of us judges sin rightly. The idea in atonement is that sin was measured not only by God, but by Man. On the cross the Lord fully measured sin according to what it is in God’s account; we never could do that.
RSS What you say is true. You feel you can estimate your own sin very poorly, but there is One who has felt it aright, and He was a Man.
JT If God had utterly removed man out of the universe, which He could have done, you would not have secured what the cross presents to us. You [p. 437] would have an evidence that God hated sin and must judge it, but at the cross you have a Man estimating it infinitely. He estimated it according to God’s estimate of it, and removed it accordingly; so that it is only on the cross you have a true estimate and judgment of sin. The great white throne does not give it fully. Those consigned to eternal punishment do not estimate sin as Jesus estimated it. They doubtless recognise the justice of God in their doom, for they are judged according to their works, but they do not rightly estimate sin.
WHC So the Lord said in connection with the Father’s appreciation of that, “Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life, that I might take it again”. (John 10:17) He was never more an object of the Father’s complacent love than in His death.
JT He said, “thou art holy” from the depths of His agony.
GAT Is that the answer to His cry “why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
JT That is His own answer giving the reason of it.
WJN He justifies God.
WB-t Would you connect these thoughts with the Lord’s supper?
JT The Lord’s supper is the other side. It is what His body is to us. You cannot but delight in His body, that in which He carried out God’s will, but the immediate thought in the Supper is, “This is my body, which is for you”. (1 Corinthians 11:24)
RSS It is rather striking that in the gospel that suggests the thought of the continuance of the Lord’s supper (Luke), the only gospel that does, there is no reference to sin. In Matthew it says, “this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins”, (Matthew 26:28) but in Luke where the continuance of the Lord’s supper is suggested, there is no reference to sin. What is before [p. 438] us therefore is, that He loved the assembly and gave Himself for it. We must distinguish between that and the Lord on the cross bearing sin. He was alive then, but having borne it, He dies.
JT And that was necessary for atonement; the life had to be given up, the life to which sin had been attached on the cross. During the three hours of abandonment, sin was attached to Him. I mean our sins, and in order for atonement to be accomplished that life had to be given up. Hence He died and that order of man is ended.
WJN I think what you have been saying as to the necessity for His dying is important. One might have thought if He had passed through the three hours of darkness and the judgment of God, there was no necessity for dying.
JT But “without shedding of blood is no remission”; (Hebrews 9:22) that is, the life to which sin attached had to be given up, and He gives it up and never takes it up again. He takes life in a new condition.
WHG Otherwise He would have been for ever alone.