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THE TESTIMONY (NO. 1)

JT We started yesterday with the thought of the testimony, and it seems to be on the minds of many that it should be taken up today. This epistle presents itself as particularly setting it forth. I shall be glad of any thought you may have on the testimony as spoken of here: “Be not thou therefore, ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God”.

HD'AC It is remarkable it should be called a testimony here, and that the encouragement should be given to Timothy.

JT I suppose the prominence given by the apostle to his own position, in this epistle, would suggest that he had specially in his mind the unfolding of the truth; it would suggest, that the practical way in which the testimony is unfolded in his ministry, was in his mind. That is the full church position; and the light set there in connection with his ministry. He couples “the testimony of our Lord”, with “and of me his prisoner”.

JSA And then he also connects it with the gospel, of which he was the special exponent.

JT I think that being then a prisoner indicates the reception that the testimony received in the world. The apostolic position is a very important consideration in connection with the testimony. I think Paul represented the apostolic idea, and the opening up of the testimony, which was foreshadowed in Moses’ ministry.

WH Would you say Moses presents to us ^[p. 2] the apostolic idea?

JT Yes.

Ques What do you mean by the apostolic idea?

JT I think that the Lord had taken up Paul, and He would adhere to Paul; He would allow no conditions arising in the world to interfere with His choice: “that by me”, the apostle says, “the preaching might be fully known”. (2 Timothy 4:17) That is, it must come out by the vessel divinely chosen.

Rem You mean the apostle being a prisoner does not affect the testimony?

JT Paul’s imprisonment shows the kind of reception which the testimony received.

Ques Would it affect the testimony for the good of the testimony?

JT No doubt; but it shows the kind of reception the testimony had received. But then the Lord was not going to be affected by that.

JSA That shows the necessity of the power of God to make good the testimony.

JT So that the two thoughts run through the epistle. The apostle, the one through whom the power is manifested, can say, “the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, that by me the preaching might be fully known”. (2 Timothy 4:17)

Ques Why do you make the apostolic position so prominent?

JT Because I think that it is well to see that God has never receded from the position He took up. He took up a certain position in Paul’s ministry, and He has never receded from that; and that position stands.

Ques Do you mean that if we are to have the testimony that position must be recognised in our souls?

JT Yes. You have to make up your mind to that.

Ques What do you understand by the testimony of ^[p. 3] the Lord?

JT I think it is the testimony connected with the Lord viewed in the official position, which involves His power. You are not to be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, because we can reckon upon His power as support.

TMG That is why it is the testimony of our Lord.

JT I think so. I think it is a great thing to make up your mind that God has taken up a certain position in the ministry of Paul which He proposes to maintain, and for that you require the strength of the Lord.

TMG And the Lord alone is equal to that; and He will have that testimony carried out.

Ques Does the testimony involve the whole church position?

JT I think that is exactly what it does. God has taken up a position here in the unfolding of His mind, and He is not going to recede from it. Now, the question is whether we are prepared for that; there is to be no surrender of it. That is the great point in the epistle, I think. There it is; the testimony of our Lord has been unfolded. It is not in this epistle a question of revelation.

HD'AC It is not simply that the Lord is the testimony; the Lord is presented as the One who supports the testimony, and carries it on.

HM It speaks of the testimony of the Christ being formed among the Corinthians. Is there any difference in the thought there?

JT The Christ has reference, I think, to the Man whom God has chosen. The thought of “the Christ” depends on what Christ is as Man. It is God, as it were, making His choice. He has taken up that Man, and in that Man He unfolds His mind. It is not a question of His power, but of His choice. The Christ is God’s choice. God has anointed ^[p. 4] that Man.

HD'AC Yes; and all the thoughts of God for man are set forth in Him. Would you not connect it with “the promise of life in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:1) which we read of at the beginning of the epistle?

JT I think so. God’s Man has come into evidence; now God has found everything in that Man personally. He is so infinitely agreeable to God that He has anointed Him. The thought in anointing is that the anointed one is God’s choice. “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed”, (John 6: 27). The Father has taken up that Man, and everything has now to be administered by Him; so that He is the anointed Vessel. I think it is in that way we have the “testimony of the Christ”. (1 Corinthians 1:6)

Ques It is taken up in that Person?

JT Yes. The kings of the earth stand up and the rulers take counsel against the Lord and against His Anointed, Psalm 2. It is the question of God’s choice; but God says, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee”. (Psalm 2:6,7). He has put that Man in the place of power and glory.

JSA If I understand aright what you said about the testimony of the Christ, it has more reference to what He is as the anointed Man; but when it comes to the Lord it is more a question of power in carrying out all things.

JT I think that is it.

Rem One can see the great necessity of it in Timothy; there had been a turning away, and power was needed to support the truth. In Corinthians it was really the testimony that the apostle presented to them to deliver them from man.

JT Yes. I think that, speaking generally,

^[p. 5] where souls have to be delivered, from the political world around us, what effects that is the testimony of the Christ.

“Neither has the Lord chosen him”, (1 Samuel 16:8) was what the Spirit said to Samuel when each of the sons of Jesse were made to pass before him; but when David appears Jehovah says, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he”. (1 Samuel 16:12). It is an immense thing to see the Man whom God has chosen for the accomplishment of His designs. If you see the Lord’s Anointed it will deliver you from all that is political here.

HD'AC And David comes in after the man of the people’s choice. Saul was descriptive of the people’s choice, though God allowed the lot to fall upon him. He knew there was none who could, according to the people’s idea, better represent what they wanted. He allowed Saul to come forward; and then He brings in the Man of His choice.

JT How ready our hearts are to light upon some man.

TMG The first man proved to be a failure, and then God brought in another Man.

JT You have to consider the kind of man whom God has anointed.

TMG A man of another order.

JT Yes; now David was that in principle.

Ques Do you get the thought of that in Noah and the ark?

JT Yes; in a certain sense.

In regard to the anointing, if you see the Man that God has anointed it delivers you from all officialism. God has found. His Man, and He has anointed Him; He has taken Him up and anointed Him. The next thing the anointing involves is that He is in the place of authority; He is “both Lord and Christ;” and the thought of the Lord is introduced here that we might be assured of the power that supports Timothy. There are two things which come out in ^[p. 6] connection with David; the complete overthrow of the Philistine power; the Philistine power is really the religious power, and then David gets the ark; he comes to Zion and he installs the ark there. The effect of the anointing was that David secured the testimony in its own place, and protected it.

Rem There is a beautiful verse in Psalm 89:19: “Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people”. That is looking forward to what you speak of.

JSA Reference was made just now to politics. I remember a brother saying that the first verse of the New Testament had cleared him as to politics when he saw that the true Son of Abraham sat on the throne of David; and that anything you could set up in this world meanwhile would only make things worse.

HD'AC It is very easy to get our eyes on the wrong man. Samuel mourned for Saul, but if Hannah’s song had been before him he would not have looked to Saul. It is in Hannah’s song we get the first mention of God’s Anointed. She said: “The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them; the Lord shall judge the ends of the earth, and he shall give strength unto his king and exalt the horn of his anointed”. (1 Samuel 2:10) That referred to the Christ. Samuel had to learn really who was God’s Christ; that the Adam man came first in God’s wisdom to show that a man who is the very cream, so to speak, of humanity, the best man that could be produced from amongst men, only brings in ruin when it comes to the crisis; when it comes to the test he fails. Then God brings out His man. Samuel had to learn that only David would do for God. We take a long time to get to Christ. We were very glad to get to Him as Saviour, but all our political thoughts are ^[p. 7] very much in connection with men around us. Nothing delivers us from the politics of this world like a true thought of Christ. You will be ashamed that you ever touched politics when you get true thoughts of Christ. Men are not going to live down here through a man like themselves, a man of their own choosing; it must be through God’s Christ. Only through the Man of God’s choice can the nations be blessed.

JSA There are many who keep clear of politics as regards actual facts, but who get under the spirit that is in the world; for instance, those who take part in voting.

Rem Someone has said, very truly, that you cannot avoid in a certain way forming a judgment about things; but if your heart, as has been said, is set on another Man altogether, the Man of God’s thoughts, and all that belongs to Him, you discover that His politics are entirely apart from everything here.

JT I think it is quite right to have a judgment as to what is going on in the world, because the elements that are active are simply what God is holding in abeyance. The world is still the sphere of God’s government. It is extremely interesting to see how God comes in from time to time to modify things for the sake of the assembly. One has often observed how the spirit of lawlessness has been restrained for the sake of the assembly; and our prayers should be in that connection. Whilst you have a judgment of things, and you see the development of the antichristian system, and that all is about to be manifested, yet you are thinking; of Christ, and you are living in a world that is centred in God’s Anointed. It is very interesting to see in Acts 4 how the early saints recognised what God did. In the presence of the combined hostility against the Lord and against His Anointed they prayed to God;

^[p. 8] the God that created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. They were not restricted; they recognised the divine sovereignty of God, and they prayed, and the place where they were assembled was shaken.

JSA And they also owned that nothing could be done except what God had ordered should be done.

LM How are you to become acquainted with things in the world? .

JT It would be a very bad result if what we are saying would encourage the saints to read the newspapers. The book of Revelation contemplates a knowledge of passing events. The number of the beast has to be counted, for instance.

HD'AC You cannot help hearing of passing events. Why then go out of your way to get the knowledge of them if things are forced upon me I seek to contrast them. It is an immense thing to contrast the things that are forced upon you with our system, the system of God’s Christ.

JT The man to whom God revealed His mind, and with whom God’s testimony began, was a very unpatriotic man; he forsook his country, and his kindred, and his father’s house; hence he declined all that which men aspire to in this world.

HD'AC But he was a great politician for “he looked for a city which hath foundations”. (Hebrews 11:10)

JT And God answered that. As enlightened by God you have certain aspirations. Abraham looked for a city, and God proposes for you what you look for, that you get position in the divine system for what you may think you lose in abandoning the present order of things.

JSA Man desires knowledge, power, and place. Well, the apostle says, “that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings”. (Philippians 3:10) There you have knowledge, power,

^[p. 9] and place. God answers your prayers in His way, not in yours.

JT I think what Mr. C. referred to is very helpful, and that is, that the things about us being forced upon us enable us to take account of the contrast in what God presents; the contrast becomes very real to you.

Ques Are the afflictions of the gospel part of the contrast.

JT I think the afflictions of the gospel indicated the kind of reception the gospel received in the world; so that Timothy is called upon to suffer evil along with the glad tidings. I think suffering is involved in the position we take up in relation to the testimony.

JSA It is also interesting to see that the glad tidings is looked upon as if it were something that is going on in this world with the power of God behind it to carry it on; but the question is, Are we in fellowship with that?

HD'AC To my mind, we ought to stand for the glad tidings, and to be imbued with it, and be impressed with it more than ever. Some may have the idea that there is no use going on with the gospel; but that should make us all the more eager to go on with it.

Rem One reason would be that the glad tidings brings Christ into prominence.

HD'AC Yes it does.

Ques Would you point out what is meant by the testimony involving the whole church position.

JT Well, I think the testimony involves all that which has come out in the ministry of Paul. Peter received a commission from the Lord in receiving the keys of the kingdom; and the Lord entrusts light as to the church to Peter. He says, “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. (Matthew 16:18) And then He says “^[p. 10] I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens, and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens”. (Matthew 16:19) I think the Lord, after having introduced the idea of the church, immediately added that of the kingdom, to show that there would be a way made for the church; and in intimating a binding and a loosing, I think He intended to lift from the Gentiles the restrictions that God had placed upon them governmentally. He intended that those restrictions should be removed, so that the ground might be prepared for Paul’s ministry. It is in Paul’s ministry you have the church in its world-wide aspect, and I think that is what is in view here; the testimony here is established through the ministry of Paul.

Ques When you speak of the restrictions that were placed on the Gentiles, what do you mean?

JT In calling out Israel, and separating them specially from the nations, there were certain restrictions placed upon the nations. They were “without God in the world”, and had no title; they were strangers to the covenant of promise; they had nothing in connection with what God had instituted. Now, Peter removes these restrictions from off the Gentiles. By baptism I think he brought the Gentile under the wing of the Lord, so to speak. Peter had to be educated for it in the case of Cornelius, but he commanded baptism; he baptised them in the name of the Lord, and so he brought the Gentile under the wing of the Lord. Now, that makes room for the church.

JSA Simeon in Luke, announced that the Lord was to be a light for the revelation of the Gentiles, and Peter is the one who is used to bring them into it.

JT In the apostle Paul’s ministry you have ^[p. 11] Paul unfolding all the mind of God in regard to Christ, and the church’s place in God’s counsels. Now, that involves a very great deal, because it involves the heavens and the earth as well as God’s thoughts of blessing for all. God is not going to recede from His thought; that is His testimony.

Ques How can a person be “ashamed of the testimony?”

Rem What is referred to there is the opposition which the apostle met with.

TEW It conveys this, that God had abandoned the earthly centre — Jerusalem. A light, a voice, from heaven; all that indicates the transference of the centre from Jerusalem to heaven.

Rem Someone asks, how anybody can be ashamed of the testimony. How are we not to be ashamed of it?

WK Do not be ashamed to identify yourself with it.

HD'AC I think you should consider whether there is a single point you ought to be ashamed of. Take the whole testimony of Christ; there is nothing whatever shameful in it, in all its parts it is infinitely glorious. When you realise that, you can understand the injunction, “Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony”.

Rem The fact of the warning being given shows that the danger was present.

Rem There is not a thing in this world which you should not blush at — the whole system is wrong. We, get under the influence of things around, and hence we get ashamed of Christ.

TMG “The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain”. (2 Timothy 1:16)

LM How are we to know a man who is a prisoner for Him?

JT Well, prisoners for the testimony’s sake were ^[p. 12] always very scarce, and it is a question whether there are any today; but there is one thing sure, the gospel is in reproach; it is not bound now. It is very encouraging to see, in Acts 7, that whilst Saul, the great adversary of the gospel, was binding men and women, the gospel went on.

LM We have come to a very bad pass if there are no prisoners now.

JT It is a question of how much we are identified with it; it is a question of how many are espousing it.

HM I notice you turn from the expression “testimony” to “gospel”. Do you identify the two expressions in your mind?

HD'AC They seem very closely connected. When you come to the gospel you think of God coming out in all that He is.

TMG It is concerning His Son.

JSA I think the words about the apostle’s preaching in Romans 16:25, are very interesting. “Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery”. (Romans 16:25)

Ques Do we need to know the heavenly position of the church in our souls, so as to realise the power of God?

JT I think it is a great thing to have before your soul the power of God; but before you can touch what is heavenly you have to see as to whether you are entitled to the earth. It is very weak to talk about the heavenly position if you do not see your title to live here.

Ques What do you mean by title?

JT Well, the Lord has brought to light by the glad tidings, life and incorruptibility; that does not go beyond the present position. It is a question of the power of God. Now, the Lord established a title for man to live on earth, and unless you see that title it is very weak to talk about a title to heaven.

^[p. 13] The question of life and death was raised on earth; that question was not raised in heaven it was raised on earth. The whole point is as to whether man can establish a title to life.

Ques Do you mean because he had forfeited it himself?

JT Yes; man had forfeited his title to life; now the Lord is said to have annulled death, but before He annulled death He established a title to live.

Ques Is that what the anointing comes in in connection with?

JT I think so. Whom would God anoint except a Man who has title to live?

JSA There is an interesting verse of scripture that supports what you have been saying — “In this was manifested the love of God towards us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him”, (1 John 4:9)

Ques It is connected with new creation?

JT Surely: but has man a title to live on earth? That must be settled before the heavenly position can be taken up.

Ques How has that title been made good to us?

JT It was first made good in Christ. The title to live must be established by Man. It is a wonderful proposition, to my mind. Man has brought in death; and he is perfectly helpless, unless MAN establishes a title to live.

We all know that the Lord when here was, as He is now, a divine Person; that is a cardinal truth of Christianity; One with the Father. On that side we can easily understand how everything should be accomplished; but the point was that He should become Man, and that being so what came out in Him as Man here was that He had a title to live; death had no claim upon Him.

^[p. 14] Rem No claim upon Him personally, for He was the righteous Man.

JT Yes, exactly. The idea was God and man. God formed His creature man, for Himself, and that creature was made to look up to God. God was to be the supreme object of affection for man.

TMG Christ, loved righteousness and hated iniquity.

JT Man lost his place through disobedience; now what you see in Christ is the answer to all that; that is, in Christ, God had His full place; it was always a question of God with Him. We have to distinguish between the Lord’s position as Son with the Father, and His position as Man before God..

Rem We have the thought in the Lord’s message to His disciples by Mary, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”. (John 20:17)

JT It would have availed nothing for us if He had not died; but He had in view the establishment of eternal life for us. He was it; “in him was life, and the life was the light of men”. (John 1:4)

Rem Where man failed in everything, Christ answered to God fully in His pathway before He entered into death.

JT Yes, so that manifestly death had no claim over Him. He went to the mount of transfiguration; He had proved His title as Man to go up to the highest place, and there Moses and Elias talk to Him of His decease, which He should, accomplish at Jerusalem. His title to be immune from death was perfectly evident, but they talk of His death. Now, that involves that He was a divine Person, because the overthrow of death involves that He was the Son of God. Now come to our side. “He that liveth and believeth on me shall never die”. You cannot establish a title to live; but “he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die”. (John 11:26)

^[p. 15] Ques What time does that refer to? “He that liveth and believeth on me shall never perish”. (John 11:26)

JT I think it means that faith in that Person ensures title to live; the pressure of death is removed from your spirit. You are not in the Christian position if the pressure of death is not removed from your spirit.

LM I thought the Scripture quoted referred to the world to come.

JT The assembly is relieved of the pressure of, death. The title to the position on earth must be made clear before we can talk about the heavenly position.

HM “We know that we have passed from death unto life”. (1 John 3:14) I suppose that is the same thought?

JT I think so.

Ques Do you mean that we have title to life here?

JT In the midst of this scene of death, we are in the full light of what Christ is.

Rem We have no title to live here, in connection with men in this world.

JT Not as men in the flesh, but as believers in Christ; belief in that Man is discarding this man.

Rem We have the promise of the things that now are and of those which are to come.

JT Yes, but “the life that I now live in the flesh” (Galatians 2:20) is another matter.

JSA If we have a title to live here there is also a sphere established in which we can live, which is not the sphere of the world without.

TMG Romans 6 makes that clear.

JT The Lord made the position clear: He had given His instructions to the disciples; and then we read, “These words spake Jesus and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come”. (John 17:1) Now, there is the MAN, and He speaks in all conscious relationship with His Father; He is ^[p. 16] the Servant; and then. He goes on to say, “thou has given him authority over all flesh” (that is the Lord’s position) “that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him”. (John 17:2) I think we should be greatly exercised about that. The Lord has a universal position in regard to men, and it is to the end that He should give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him.

Ques I suppose you would say because He was a divine Person?

JT Yes; I think John presents the Lord as administrating things on the ground of His Person. Paul presents Him rather as the anointed Man, but John says, “the Father loves the Son and hath given all things into his hand”. (John 3:35)

Rem As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ques That is the divine side of the truth; what is the human side?

JT By the human side, I suppose you mean that you believe. “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name”. (John 20:31)

Ques Is there something further brought before us in this Scripture than what we have been speaking about; that the Lord has abolished death?

JT He has abolished it, and brought life and incorruptibility to light through the glad tidings. Now, this refers to the state of things that God intends for us; that are brought to light in the glad tidings.

Rem Life and incorruptibility can only be seen in one Man, but this life and incorruptibility came to light in the Lord before He ascended.

Rem I think John, in the epistle, is pointing out that Christ is a real Man; “Jesus Christ come in flesh”. He had been so real that the apostle says,

“We have seen the Lord”. (John 20:25) The thought in eternal life is to see that man is entitled to live.

HD'AC “He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever”. (Psalm 21:4) Would not that be the title to live?

Ques If it is life now, why do you say title to live? Do you connect it with this order of things?

JT Oh, no; it is not connected with this order of things, because, as has been pointed out, there is a sphere in which we can live; but evidently the title to live precedes that.

HD'AC Connected with the promise of life in Christ Jesus at the beginning of the epistle.

JSA If life came in in Christ and is set forth in Him, He must have a sphere in which that life can be lived in relation to Himself.

Ques Is the title to live presented in the testimony?

JT It is in the Lord’s name.

LM What do you mean by life — life and incorruptibility?

Rem Mr. Darby made a remark that eternal life was to enjoy the position God gives you.

JT What I have before me is that it is due to God that life should be introduced here in man; it was lost in man. Think what it was to God, that the man that He formed for Himself should have to disappear in death; and what it was to God to see a Man reinstating all that, reinstating all that God’s thought was for man! The Father’s commandment was life everlasting. That was established in the Lord publicly; the title that man should not die; that was a public testimony; there was no obvious reason why that Man should die; He had every title to live, and for this reason, that God had His true place with Him, in every possible respect. What obvious ground was there for that Man ^[p. 18] to die?

JSA God has His rightful place. Mr. Wigram when asked what he understood by being “dead in trespasses and sins”, replied that man has not one thought Godward.

HD'AC I do not think you can get any right thoughts except as you see them in Christ. Christ sets forth what is in the mind of God for man.

JT Now, he goes on to say, “this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. (John 17:3) He was in the full light of God, and He says, “this is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God”. Now, that had reference to what Satan had introduced into the world, that is, idolatry. Satan had introduced idolatry into the world; Abraham had been called out of it, and it was to Abraham that the blessing was promised.

Ques Is not God’s thought for every man now that he might have eternal life?

JT The point is that the Lord has established the fact of man living here in the light of God, as knowing God; so that He says, “This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God;” but more; “and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. Life and incorruptibility are available through Him to all those whom the Father has given Him.

JB What is the obedience that is referred to in the passage? “by the obedience of one many are made righteous”. (Romans 5:19)

JT The point there is the Lord’s death. I think we have to get the two things together, that is to say, the knowledge of the true God, and the knowledge of the One that God sent. Do you see what I mean?

Rem I see that we may look more exclusively at the Lord’s death, and not take into account the pathway of the Lord in which every thought of God was answered as to Man.

^[p. 19] Rem The question of the relation between God and man is settled in the pathway of the Lord?

JT Yes, in principle, but then it must be settled vicariously. He did not settle it in His pathway for us. It is essential that we should see that the question was settled for us vicariously on the cross; we must see that. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up”. (John 3:14)

JSA Unless the Lord had been as Man the perfect answer to God, how could He vicariously have gone into it on our behalf. I think it is of very great importance to see that all had to be made perfectly clear. He would have abode alone in that order of things unless He had gone into death.

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