THE TESTIMONY (NO. 2)
[p. 20] THE TESTIMONY (NO. 2)
Romans 8:14-16; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1: 1 - 6
JSA As some here were not present yesterday it may be necessary to state what the subject was. The testimony was before us, and it was pointed out, that it had two characters; the first referring to earth, how men could be on earth in true relationship with God; and, the second, that it had to do with the place God has given to His people in connection with Christ in the heavenlies. We were dwelling more on the position as set forth in Romans; that is to say, man made perfectly clear in relation to God, able to live to God on this earth.
JT It was thought that the epistle to the Romans deals with the first side of the truth, that which refers to man here on earth, so that man is reinstated in relation with God; and that the epistle to the Ephesians treats of the relationships in which the same persons are set, as connected with God’s eternal counsels.
JSA And these two things, one might add, must be taken together to get a true idea of the testimony.
Rem You would say it is not God’s intention to reinstate man in the position originally lost by him?
JT No; but I think it is important to see that God intends to establish every thought that He had indicated as to man here on earth. He set forth certain thoughts in connection with Israel, and those thoughts must find their answer first of all, before the heavenly side can be taken up.
Rem And that would involve righteousness and life on our side.
HD'AC [p. 21] You do not mean that man is reinstated in innocence, that man is put on the earth without the knowledge of good and evil; that could not be.
JT No. God’s thought was that He would not surrender the idea of man. Satan would have robbed Him of man, of that order of being, but God would not surrender His purpose.
JSA I understand in using the word reinstate you mean that God should have man back in relationship with Himself.
JT You must have the thoughts of God indicated in the Old Testament in regard to man established; because they refer to what God had in His mind to bring in here. What took place in Eden involved that God was robbed of all that; but in Christ becoming man every thought that God had indicated in regard to man on earth is taken up, and in every way set forth.
HD'AC Man was made in the image and likeness of God; and he had the right to the tree of life; he did not actually take of the tree of life; but he had the right to it before the fall.
JT There were no restrictions in regard to the tree of life. Man was to be here as God’s glory. That was a very great idea; and that had to be set forth in man. It was due to God that it should be.
TMG So that none of the thoughts that God has had with regard to man are lost, even though sin has come in and spoiled man in the first state. Is that your thought?
JT Yes; the Lord says, He restored that which He took not away.
JAM Do I understand you to say that God has thoughts of man, as such; and then He has thoughts in regard to Israel, a people in relation to Himself; and that His thoughts in regard to both of them apply to [p. 22] earth?
JT Yes, I think so; and those thoughts are all taken up by Christ as Man and maintained in every possible way.
TMG So that nothing is lost.
Ques Would you say something on the second part of the question?
JT Well, the law indicated what God sought in Israel; but we know He did not secure, what He sought in them. Now, Christ magnified the law, and He made it honourable; and that was here. I should like, that we all might see, that what the law set forth in that way is to be continued here on earth, in the saints. Christ died in order to make if possible that it should be continued here. In the first part of Romans 8 you have the kind of man that is suited for the earth; the righteous requirements of the law, we are told, are fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Then, moreover, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ; that is to say, the Spirit of that Man, he is not of Him. So you have here as a result of the gospel a race of men who maintain righteousness. It is not an innocent race, but a race that is righteous; that is to say, they have the means of discharging every moral obligation, and they have also the Spirit of Christ. I should like that we might take hold of that.
Ques What do you understand by the Spirit of Christ?
JT It is the Spirit of that Man. Then we get the other side later on in the chapter where it is the Spirit of God’s Son.
TMG Is that the Ephesian side — the purpose side?
JT Yes.
RL You could not speak of Adam being either righteous or holy as man; he was innocent.
JT Whereas of Christ it was said, “he loved righteousness”. In that, way you learn the kind of man suited for God.
HD'AC God had intended to have a man in His image and likeness. The first man was not, of course, the complete thought. God made man upright, but that does not go so far as a righteous man.
JSA When Adam was set forth, everything, the whole environment, was right; but it is a greater thing to have what is suitable to God in the midst of an environment that is all wrong.
JT That brought out exactly what Christ was. An environment of violence and corruption brought out what Christ was. It was not simply that He fulfilled righteousness, but He loved it.
TMG God had that Man always before Him.
JT Yes. I think He had the order of life that is to be before God in His mind before the order that appeared in Adam existed.
JSA That is perfectly true. That is connected more with the ultimate purpose of God; but having Adam and certain characteristics that are connected with Adam — they must be made good.
HD'AC The spirit of things is brought before us in Romans 8, and that leads on to Ephesians.
JT Quite so. So we have the spirit of life, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God’s Son. I would like the simple thought of what man is for God, as seen in Christ, to be rightly understood; and that it is God’s thought that it should be continued here.
Ques How far would that go at present?
JT It is seen in the early part of Romans 8, in that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who walk by the Spirit; and then we have the Spirit of Christ. What a thing it is to have the Spirit of Christ!
Rem You would say that is to have the character of that [p. 24] Man.
JT The character is worked out from it. But see what kind of man it is that has the Spirit of Christ.
Rem Meek and lowly.
JSA Our brother is emphasising that there is a distinct thought in the spirit of a man. It is not quite the same thing as the character of a man; it is more what you might call the particular energy in that man.
HD'AC You get the elements of new creation in Romans 8, bat you get new creation in Ephesians.
TMG The Spirit of Christ would produce the character.
JSA What we have had before us is that there must be a right understanding of what man is here for God, and living to God, before one can properly appreciate the higher order of things that comes out in Ephesians and that shows the importance of the epistle to the Romans being understood, if we are to appreciate truly the line of purpose.
JT The whole testimony as regards the earth is witnessed to. God made the earth definitely to be inhabited, and now He has brought in the kind of man that is to inhabit it. So that we therefore anticipate the order of man that is to prevail in the millennial world.
HD'AC An order of man really free from what governed us when under the power of sin and death. Man was always gravitating downwards, but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is brought in, and a complete change is brought about. So that man is attracted upwards towards God.
JT Directly you get the spirit of sonship another scene is suggested; because where must sons go to? to what position do they belong?
Ques You mean that is the kind of man that inhabits heaven?
JT God is leading many sons to glory, but God [p. 25] brings man in here in testimony, so that Satan gains nothing. Every divine thought is secured; Satan has gained nothing. God is free now to go on with His eternal purpose, having first secured every thought He gave expression to in regard to the earth, and man on it.
TMG As to the purpose side, Satan has nothing there?
JT No, nothing; he never touched that.
JSA I think what you have been saying is very important. The two lines are distinct in that way. You must have the first absolutely made good before you can enter into the other.
JT What I understand by the millennium is this; it is the intensification of responsibility; responsibility is intensified; and it is put into the hands of Christ; and everything is maintained by Him intact. That shows His perfection in carrying out every divine thought in regard to the earth; hence the thought of the Son of man is the prominent idea.
Ques How is responsibility intensified?
JT Ten is the numeral of responsibility, and it is multiplied by one hundred.
TEW I think, in a certain sense, men will never be more responsible than they are at this moment.
JT To what man did God ever commit a dispensation that was to endure for a thousand years? Take Noah, and Abraham, and David; they had certain responsibilities, but of very short duration. Now, in the millennium there is a thousand years; and the whole question of human responsibility is settled, and terminated.
HD'AC There is Christ in the millennium with all that is needed to fulfil the responsibilities.
JT Then, when you come to the other side — the Ephesians’ side — it is also set forth in Christ.
[p. 26] He is the expression of the man who is to be before God eternally. It is to be man, but man in the relationship of son. When you come to Ephesians, He is the “Beloved;” that is what He is to God. God has taken us into favour in the Beloved; and I do not think we shall ever get on to Ephesian ground until we have the thought of the Beloved.
Ques Is it the same thought as in Colossians, where it says “the Son of his love?”
JT I think “the Beloved” is a stronger expression as regards affection. In Acts 20 we have “the blood of his own”, but here it is the Beloved. There was not another. I think the key to the apprehension of God’s purpose is affection. It is because of “his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved); and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus”. (Ephesians 2:4,5)
Rem To get the apprehension of it is to apprehend God’s love.
JT We have to see the place that Christ has Godward. I think the term “Son” or “Son of God”, applying to the Lord, refers to the unique place He has personally as the One through whom everything is effected. But, then, we must think of what He is to God.
Ques What do you understand as to quickening in Ephesians; “quickened with Christ?”
JT I think it includes the whole divine thought as to us; it is not a question as to what is local. I take it to be anticipative, as including the whole work of God.
HD'AC The whole work of God, in time, in regard to the church looked upon as carried into effect by one stroke of His power.