THE TWO PRAYERS IN EPHESIANS
[p. 451] THE TWO PRAYERS IN EPHESIANS
Ephesians 1:15 - 23; Ephesians 2:18 - 22; Ephesians 3:13 - 21
WB-s Do not these two prayers at the end of the first and third chapters flow out of what has gone before in the early part of the respective chapters, and is it not in view of the instruction, that has preceded, being made good in the saints?
JT Yes. They assume all the light of Paul’s ministry. The apostle desired that the saints might, in the first instance, be able to take in the light; “being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know”.
In the first chapter what is presented is from God’s side, that we may know these three things; then in chapter 3 that we might be able “to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height”. It is presented from our side; what we are called into; whereas it is God’s side in the first chapter.
RSS “The hope of his calling” and “the riches of the glory of his inheritance”.
JT The third chapter is the domain into which we are introduced, and Christ in the midst of it.
RSS Mr. Raven in speaking of this said that Paul had now declared unto them the whole counsel of God at Ephesus; he could not, however, effect anything in their souls; he could present the light to them, that is all. Now having presented it, he kneels down and prays for them.
JT Yes, and the prayer should be answered in us. The word that will have application to Israel in the future has application to us now: “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”. (Isaiah 60:1) That refers to Israel’s light. This is our light. Our light is Paul’s ministry. We are to shine [p. 452] in that.
RSS I was thinking of chapter 5:8. “For ye were once darkness, but now light in the Lord; walk as children of light, for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth ... Wherefore he says, Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee”. (Ephesians 5:8,9; Ephesians 5:14)
JT I am glad you alluded to that. The light there is the light in which the assembly is formed and in which it is to shine. Its light is said to be “like unto a stone most precious”, when it shines in the future, (Revelation 21:11). I would like that we should get hold of that, that there is a distinct light in which we are to shine. In chapter 3 it is said that every family in heaven and earth is named of the Father. The Father names every family, and there is distinct light for every family. Now what we have to understand is our light.
AFM You mean that we have to learn our proper distinction, and that is why you suggested this scripture to us, with a view to our answering to it here.
JT That is what the apostle had in his mind. In Acts 20 he says he had declared to them the whole counsel of God. Now it was for them to answer to that. This epistle was written subsequently, and shows it was still the burden of the apostle’s heart for them, that they should answer to what they had received. If you take the development of the truth as the Spirit of God gives it to us in the Acts, the subject of Paul’s ministry really dates from Stephen. There was a man looking into heaven who was in accord with what was there. It must be remembered that the saints on earth as Christ’s body are a suffering company; and the more you examine the truth the more you see that this is inevitable. To be here in the light of Christ, we must suffer. It is a suffering, or persecuted company that the Lord owns [p. 453] as Himself.
RSS We have to own that we suffer so little, and the reason of it is that no doubt we fail to be true to what we really know and I suppose we all like to steer the easiest course; but when such a statement is made, I do not think it can fail to affect us all.
JB I suppose at that time the suffering was on account of persecution, but have not the conditions changed today?
JT I do not think the conditions have ever changed in the principle of them. The heavenly light here; that is, the light of Christ in heaven shining in us, is sure to draw out opposition in some form.
JB What is the force of Philippians 3:10, “the fellowship of his sufferings”? Is not that continual?
JT We are called to be partakers of the afflictions of the gospel. It does not say while there are afflictions, for it assumes there will be afflictions always.
I think there has been a relinquishing of obligation. While not criticising the twelve, Acts 6 shows they relinquished obligation, and delegated it to others; and those to whom they delegated the obligations became the sufferers; at least this is seen in Stephen.
AFM What about John in Patmos: “your brother, and companion in tribulation”? (Revelation 1:9)
JT That shows the tribulation is there.
AFM But evidently John regards the saints as if he was connected with them and they with him.
JT All the apostles did, suffer; perhaps all suffered martyrdom, but they were not all honoured like Stephen. In fact the twelve remained in Jerusalem while others were scattered on account of the persecution.
RSS And not only was Stephen one of the seven, but [p. 454] Philip also.
JT It is remarkable that both Stephen, and Philip are taken up by the Lord and signalised specially just immediately afterwards, and they were the ones deputed by the apostles to take up the obligations they had relinquished. Paul never despised the work of a deacon, the serving of the saints.
RSS So I think they were hardly right in saying “It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables”. (Acts 6:2)
JT It was like Moses in Numbers 11, wishing to be relieved of his great burden, and so seventy others were used. It diminished his power. The power was not increased. The twelve would have had the power that Stephen and Philip had.
WB-s The seventy simply received of Moses’ spirit.
JT The power was taken from him and given to them.
WB-s Does the suffering come out in maintaining the heavenly position?
JT I think so. Stephen’s face shone as the face of an angel. What strikes you about Stephen is that he corresponded with Christ. He was a priest as persecuted. The end of Luke shows that Christ was a Priest; He was carried up into heaven as a Priest. He was that on the cross, praying for His enemies, and Stephen was in accord with that. I think the priest is a heavenly man. That is the testimony presented to us in the type of priesthood.
EIE Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus. Does that imply two thoughts?
JT Yes. The glory of God is that every thought that God had given expression to had found its answer in that Man; but Jesus is the Man for our hearts.
EGMcA The ability to stand in this suffering is in the apprehension of what is contained in these two [p. 455] prayers.
JT It is a very touching thing that the saints are owned as a suffering company. Saul of Tarsus knew that well, for he had been accustomed to go into their houses. Stephen was one, at least, whose sufferings he witnessed and he came in contact with the Lord in the martyr. Then in Acts 8 he entered into houses. So he understood what the Lord alluded to and what James testified; “Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you”. (James 5:6) There was no vindictiveness in the saints. They suffered as the Lord had suffered.
WB-s The Lord showed Paul how great things he must suffer for His name’s sake.
AB In 2 Timothy 3, Paul speaks of his sufferings at Antioch, Iconium and Lystra and adds, “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution”. (2 Timothy 3:12)
WJN The way in which the Lord Jesus was revealed to Saul and the way in which He spoke of the saints being Himself, a suffering company, left a lasting impression on Saul, fitting him to suffer.
JT I think so.
JLJ If we had the light of sonship in our souls we would be prepared to suffer.
JT It all goes with the formative principle of the light of Christ in heaven. He was the Sufferer. The gospel really presents it to us. It is that kind of man. Take the Psalms and examine the kind of persons whose experiences they give. It is a different order. The Psalms record experiences, not of a heavenly people strictly, but of an earthly people; truly God’s people, but an earthly people. They do not express the same kind of sentiments that you get in Stephen. There is no demand for vengeance in Stephen, nor in any true Christian, whereas the Psalms present the exercises of those who do demand vengeance, and they answer to those desires. It is important, therefore, we should understand the light [p. 456] in which we are formed and in which we are to shine.. “Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you”. (James 5:6) That was the testimony presented to them.
RSS “Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously”. (1 Peter 2:23) What you speak of is the Spirit’s work in our souls, and do you not think the great thing above all else that we need is to be formed in the spirit of Christ? Stephen was formed in the spirit of Christ. He did as Christ did in the most testing circumstances. He prayed for his enemies. I think we can constantly pull ourselves up in connection with this question: are we acting in the spirit of Christ?
JT You have it in Romans 8, “if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together”. (Romans 8:17)
AFM Our epistle comes from a prison-cell.
JT That is significant, and Paul speaks of himself as a prisoner, a chained man.
WGB It says, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him”. (2 Timothy 2:12) Does that look at the assembly as a suffering vessel here?
JT It is the normal state of the assembly in a world that rejected Christ. The answer to the suffering is the reigning.
AAT Is that where discipline is learned?
JT It is a higher thought than discipline. It was not discipline with Christ, but it was suffering. “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”. (Philippians 1:29) Of course, it often becomes discipline in our case..
WGB It is evident from Hebrews 11 that those who had faith, suffered for the light they had, even in Old Testament days.
JT You have the principle in Isaac. “He [p. 457] that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit”. (Galatians 4:29) As was pointed out, the spirit of Christ brings out the opposition.
RSS So if we act in the spirit of Christ we are very apt to have to meet the spirit of the flesh; that will be against us but we will be greatly helped if not diverted.
JT The persecution may take a different form, but if the flesh is allowed and active, it is sure to persecute him that is born after the Spirit. Ishmael represents man after the flesh, and Isaac the man after the Spirit, and he is the heavenly man.
WGB And you find Saul persecuting David.
AAT Is this the warring in your own breast?
JT It is from another person, not your own flesh. You must have two individuals for this.
GAT And it is Christ that is persecuted, not you.
JT But you are persecuted, if born after the Spirit.
AFM I wonder if we are prepared to go the full length of being here for Christ. I was thinking of Stephen. He went to a martyr’s death, and in 2 Corinthians 4 the apostle had accepted martyrdom, and so he says “I believed, and therefore have I spoken”. (2 Corinthians 4:13) He had counted the cost and was not afraid to declare himself. Is there not a principle in that? We shrink from speaking, because we have not counted the full cost of the journey.
JT I have no doubt that Paul’s letters from prison, containing as they do the assembly’s place and privileges, carry with them the conditions and circumstances of the writer, and these, in principle, should be reproduced in us. He spoke of Onesiphorus, who went to Rome, and sought him out diligently and found him, and was not ashamed of his chain. He accepted the apostle’s position fully. So, “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our [p. 458] Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel”. (2 Timothy 1:8) It is in reproach.
WJN I would like a thought as to suffering with Him.
JT “With” in Scripture involves association, and what lies at the bottom of that is our place in the future. Companionship with Christ as now in reproach, is companionship with Him in the future. “Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations”. (Luke 22:28) It is here we are suited so as to be with Him in the sphere where there are no tribulations.
WJN Is there the thought of being formed after the spirit of the heavenly Man in suffering with Him?
JT You imbibe His spirit in the sufferings.
WJN Hence you feel in that way the state of things around you. I am thinking of Romans 8. It speaks first of suffering with Him, and then mention is made of the condition of things in creation.
WHC Do you think that what would draw forth the persecution and enmity would be the spirit of envy in the natural man against those that belong to the heavenly family?
JT You see that clearly in Ishmael.
WHC So the opposition would be because one belongs to a privileged family, and that draws forth the enmity of the man after the flesh.
JT Even though that man may be himself in favour. Take Isaac. From the time of his birth here heaven comes into view, and Ishmael is recognised from heaven, actually cared for from heaven. The angel calls out of heaven in regard to Ishmael. When you come to the application now, the family born after the flesh was really favoured from heaven on account of Christ. I mean the Jews. In spite of that, you have the ceaseless opposition to the heavenly man. Ishmael’s opposition continued in spite of the fact that really Christ in heaven, as Man, drew down [p. 459] favour for them; Christ going into heaven, and the Holy Spirit given, and all with them in view: “The promise is unto you, and to your children”; (Acts 2:39) and yet that did not alter their opposition to Christ.
WHG That principle is seen in Luke 15, in connection with the elder brother; the father said, “thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine”, (Luke 15:31) and yet there was the enmity and opposition to the one in the place of favour.
ST Did not Saul of Tarsus take that place in persecuting Christ in His body here?
JT Yes. He, of all men, knew the persons to whom the Lord alluded.
ST And then he becomes the contrast to that in Colossians, where he suffers “for his body’s sake” and rejoices in it.
WB-s In what way do you think of Abraham, as you were saying this morning, as a pattern of the suffering saint? He was a very wealthy here.
JT I think the suffering side is seen more in Isaac, because God would emphasise that it is the heavenly man that suffers. So the New Testament comment helps us: “he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit”. (Galatians 4:29)
EGMcA How would you describe the sufferings now? There is no violence or death.
JT Because the persecutors have no power to do that, but the opposition is there, and it comes in in some form. No doubt the opposition is narrowed down now, but it exists and it is the same opposition.
EGMcA Can you give us an illustration of what would come to us?
JT Paul alludes to suffering from false brethren. That is very largely what it is.
GAT “Of your own selves shall men arise”. (Acts 20:30)
JT Wherever the flesh is allowed to work it is sure to persecute him that is born after the Spirit. It will come out in [p. 460] some way.
RSS Then again Paul, recounts the things he passed through in 2 Corinthians 11, including as he says: “that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches”. (2 Corinthians 11:28) Truth remains the same, though outward conditions have changed. Our manner of life is different; the life which we have to go through here is not so much marked by persecution, but more by pressure. In those days they had not the heavy business pressure, for they lived in the simplest way possible, and they were free from the pressure that we are all in more or less. I got the thought from a letter in which it was said: I often comfort myself with the thought that probably pressure in our day answers to persecution in early days; I mean as discipline. Both would seem a hindrance to the conditions necessary for spiritual growth, and yet if taken up with God would prove not only not a hindrance, but a help.
JT When the Man that is in heaven is shown to be the only Man owned of God and owned of faith, all others have to be displaced. That is where the persecution arises.
WHG That awakens enmity.
JT Now the first record although of course it existed from Cain onwards, we have of persecution is in Isaac, and not when he was born, but when he was weaned. It was then that Abraham made a great feast for Isaac, and necessarily Isaac was the supreme figure, and that displaced Ishmael, who was the elder of the two. That alludes, in the fulness of it, to the place Christ has obtained in heaven. The man born after the flesh was put into the shade. That is what drew out the opposition. If carefully analysed it will be found, the more you look into it, that the opposition is centred against Stephen.
JM Our keenest suffering would be from the religious element.
JT From those who once had a status from [p. 461] God;
wherever there has been an acknowledgement of such by God, and where that has been set aside. If you make a great feast you say: “not I, but Christ”. You do not allow any other spirit but that of Christ and that will bring out opposition. There is no obvious reason why people should dislike you; you do not do them any harm, and yet they do dislike you.
GBM It came out in Michal’s anger at David dancing before the ark.
JT Most markedly; and the comfort is, that that kind of generation becomes extinct. She had no children after that. First of all that generation is limited. Under Saul it was not limited. It prevailed while Saul reigned, but it became limited in Michal, it lasted only as long as she lived. When David made much of Christ, she despised him in her heart, but when she died, that spirit died with her. She had no child.
RSS Why do you think Abraham pleaded with God, “O, that Ishmael might live before thee!” (Genesis 17:18) God said, “I will make him a great nation”. (Genesis 17:20) Ishmael is the figure of the man after the flesh, and I cannot quite see why God maintains him, and apparently prospers him.
JT Because he was Abraham’s seed. It shows the great place Abraham had with God. It was not because God had any pleasure in Ishmael because he was a “wild-ass of a man”. That was his character. God could have no pleasure in a man like that. Being Abraham’s seed is the ground on which God said He would bless him, Genesis 21:13. God honours Abraham and blesses his seed, because he is his seed; and he is owned from heaven even after Isaac is born. When Hagar was first forced out of Abraham’s house God took care of her and sent her back; but it is not said that He spoke to her out of heaven, but when she is cast out with Ishmael the angel [p. 462] speaks from heaven to her, Genesis 21:17. God honours Abraham. God blesses a man’s family because of him.
RSS I was wondering if the position of Ishmael and his history is given us in order that we might have a delineation of the man after the flesh.
JT Yes, as blessed of God; He refers to Israel.
RSS It all results in nothing.
JT Quite so, and God did all possible for Abraham. God says, as it were, ‘If you love Ishmael, as you do, I will bless him’, but nothing came out of it but persecution. It is applied to Israel in Galatians. “This Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children”. (Galatians 4:25) That was the issue of it all.
LTF That shows the length God would go with the desires of His own.
JT That is the point. God said, as it were, ‘I will bless Ishmael on your account, but let the issue show itself’. “In Isaac shall thy seed be called”. (Genesis 21:12)
RSS It shows how reluctant we are to give up the flesh.
JT If we want to understand Paul’s doctrine we have to examine the history of Isaac. Isaac is the great foreshadowing of it in the Old Testament. When Isaac is born heaven comes into view. When he is offered up, the angel calls out of heaven twice, Genesis 22.
RSS The beautiful circumstance in the plains of Mamre, when the three men come to Abraham as he was sitting in his tent-door, would seem to have as its object to foretell Isaac’s birth.
EIE You were speaking this morning regarding Abraham being called by the God of glory. Do you get that referred to in Ephesians? As appearing to him as the God of glory He had something to communicate to him.
JT “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world, without end”. (Ephesians 3:21) The glory is in the assembly. When Paul sets to work in regard to the assembly, it is “house to house” work. As it had been house to house work in the persecution, so in the ministry. When we come to the Ephesians, those that had been formed by this house to house work of the apostles are qualified for the heavenly position. Acts 20 says, “from house to house”.
This is how you get to know the members of Christ. Of course we get to know each other in the assembly, but we should get to know each other at home. You help a brother by going to his house. Paul did not go in a social way, but to carry the light he had. He took account of each saint as a member of Christ. He had in his mind the great scheme. He was a master builder. If he went into a believer’s house, he took account of that man as a member of Christ and ministered to him accordingly. “That we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus”, (Colossians 1:28) was Paul’s objective.
ST Is that shepherding the flock?
JT It amounts to that. He had the great end in view; the position in which each one is to shine.
WB-s Will you give us a little more on these three scriptures?
JT I think that in Ephesians the apostle is writing down his thoughts by the Spirit as to the assembly’s place, and he shows that Christ has been made “head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”. But in the meantime she is a sufferer here.
AFM That is what is in your mind when you speak of suffering. I want to know the connection between the suffering and these scriptures.
JT The suffering is that which shows that they were the members of Christ. We are owned in that [p. 464] way. It is useless to talk about it unless there is suffering, because it is a suffering people that He owns.
AAT Is it a suffering people who, in any special way, receive His service as Priest?
JT They suffered more because of what they were. Saul went into their houses and sought out men and women. It was not simply what they were doing that provoked this, but sheer opposition to the spirit that was in them. Saul was mad against them, but it was on account of what they were, and their relation to Christ. He did many things contrary to the Name of Jesus of Nazareth.
AAT Yet, on the other hand, Christ as Priest was surely supporting them.
RSS Your thought is that the assembly in connection with Paul’s ministry and Paul’s history, begins where Stephen’s ends, and is connected with it.
JT Quite so. He had to do with the spirit of Christ in these persons. The Lord identifies Himself with the very thing that Paul had been dealing with. The man who was speaking in heaven was the One whom Saul had been dealing with in these persons; they were of the same spirit. That is how the assembly as the body comes to light on earth.
EGMcA I do not quite see why you have dwelt so much on persecution in these scriptures.
JT I did not intend to dwell so much on it at first, but I think it is of the Lord that we should see the position, and that the assembly is connected with persecution. It is thus in correspondence with Christ here, as it will be in glory.
GBM Would you connect these words in Ephesians 1 with the expression in Philippians: “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings”. (Philippians 3:10)
JT “Him” in Ephesians 1, is God. It is really a question of the knowledge of God. I apprehend [p. 465] it is God revealed in His counsels. The first chapter treats of Christ, according to God’s counsels, sitting down in heaven. You will notice that; the fact of resurrection stands by itself, and it is said to be the exceeding greatness of God’s power; the words “and (he) set him down” introduce another matter. After being raised, God set Him down above all principality and power and gave Him to be Head over all things to the assembly. That is the full position of Christ and the assembly in God’s counsels, is emphasised.
WHG That would be the abstract truth apart from all experience here, and would not the result of being identified with Christ as Head, down here in our mixed condition, be persecution?
JT I think so. Ephesians presents the full thought of God, namely that Christ is set in heaven as Head over all things to the assembly. What a place the assembly has! The first chapter, taking it from the middle of verse 20, sets forth the divine counsels as to Christ and the assembly.
WHC There is no persecution there, but as identified with Christ, we suffer persecution here.
AFM Why did the apostle pray these two prayers? What is the difference between them?
JT I think the first prayer is that we might see things from God’s side, that we might have the knowledge of Him, so as to see what He is doing in the accomplishment of His counsels. The third chapter is what we are brought into, it is the other side of truth. It is one thing to look at God’s counsels and see what He accomplishes for Himself; to do that you must have “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him”. The book of Proverbs helps to show that God does everything in wisdom. Chapter 8 contemplates the divine counsels, and that wisdom was there with Him. We need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation”. It is not found in man’s [p. 466] brain. It is something God gives to us, so that we might follow Him in what He is doing. In chapter 3 the apostle thinks of families. “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named”. He thinks of families, and then he treats only of one family, and that is the assembly. He desires that they might be “strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts”. In other words, that we might see Christ, the centre of the whole scheme, the anointed Man. God has anointed Him for the accomplishment of His purposes, and He is in the centre of all, and He is to dwell in our hearts. “Being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able (it is a matter of power) to apprehend with all the saints”. He is thinking of all the saints, and what they are to be brought into, “the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ”. It is what we are brought into, and that we may know the whole extent of it.
ST We must be formed in the divine nature for that, “rooted and founded in love”.
JT That is what it means. If we do not know love we are out of it.
GWH In chapter 1 it is intelligence; in chapter 3 affection.
JT Yes, and in that sense, ability. You are great enough to take it in. It requires inward strength, not only that you have a mind great enough, but affection great enough.
JB Formed by the Spirit.
JT By the Spirit of the Father. When you come to this side of the truth, this world is not great enough for you. It is too limited, it is too narrow. You want, with this ability, a wider sphere than there is here, and the apostle’s desire is that we, in conjunction with other saints, may take it [p. 467] in.
WB-s Is not that the greatest scope of divine things in Scripture?
JT It is like the “land that I will show thee”. (Genesis 12:1) God, from the top of Mount Nebo, showed Moses all the land of Canaan. That corresponds with the point of the apostle’s prayer here. Moses was equal to that vision. It is the breadth, length, depth and height.
WHG The height would be the counsels of God.
JT Right up to God Himself.
AFM Canaan was the length and breadth, but here we have the depth and height.
JT The heavens and the earth are all in view. The whole domain of the counsels of God.
WHC Would the depth be founded on the death of Christ?
JT I suppose the blessing extends from that point.
RSS In the end of chapter 2 I think you said we get privilege.
JT Present privilege. The chapter is divided into two parts. The first part is a continuation of chapter 1. In fact if you look at the New Translation there is no break. It is one continuous statement. Christ is set in the heavens and then, “And you hath he quickened”. (Ephesians 2:1) You Gentiles and we Jews, “quickened us with the Christ ... and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. (Ephesians 2:5,6) That is, chapter 2 shows how God brings us to that point. There are two very precious thoughts in it; the first is association with Christ, and the second is that the saints are together in that. “With” is association with Christ, and “together”, is that we are united. Jew and Gentile are brought into one [p. 468] company.
RSS The thought of quickening carrying with it the thought of association, being made to live in our affections.
JT That is it; as made to live, it is with Christ.
RSS It is like 1 Thessalonians 4, “caught up together”, that is, the sleeping saints and the living ones.
JT The word together is a very precious word in Scripture. If we love Christ, “with Christ” is precious; if we love the saints, “together” is precious, because you have them all with you.
WCR “The rich and poor meet together; the Lord is the maker of them all”. (Proverbs 22:2)
GAT Does the word together bring in the idea of separation from the world?
JT The idea underlying it is, that if you love the saints, you do not want one exempted.
AB The word occurs seven times in the epistle.
JT That is interesting. We are quickened together and raised up together and made to sit down together.
WHC Raised up together will be association.
JT It is association with one another; “raised us up” is elevation, not from the grave, but from earth to heaven. Then we are seated, not together with Christ, but in Christ. That is our dignity.
AFM I would like to ask if the expression “fully, able to apprehend with all the saints” is something like what you have been speaking of regarding “together”?
JT Yes, only it supposes the work of God to be effective in them all.
AFM Are we hindered at the present time by the failure as to this in the saints at large?
JT Unquestionably. There is very little ability to take in the vastness of the divine scheme. We are not great enough. You may have light and that is chapter 1, but to be “fully able”, by virtue of the quickening power of the Father’s Spirit is another matter.
JLJ Abraham was great enough for it when Lot had left him. There must be separation before you are morally great enough to take in the purposes of God.
JB I would like to ask a question as to the body in Ephesians 1:23, “the assembly which is his body”, We have been speaking of it as in the Acts in relation to the word “why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 9:4) and of the body being a partaker of the sufferings of Christ. Does the body go on to the day of, display referred to here: “that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace”. (Ephesians 2:7)
JT Chapter 2 is what may be called anticipative. The truth is presented anticipatively. It is not what has taken place historically. It is the whole work of God in the assembly viewed anticipatively, as though it had taken place; and it is “that in the ages to come he might show”. (Ephesians 2:7)
RSS You say anticipatively because it includes every Christian from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord.
JT And every bit of work that God has wrought in the assembly.
AAT Do we apprehend individually or collectively?
JT I think it is collectively. The saints aid you. You get a greater grasp of things in assembly than individually. You have more power, more of the Spirit. You can understand a thing better in the company of a spiritual man than alone, so if you increase that, you increase the capacity.
RSS Is it not true that our greatest blessings are collective, not individual?
JT And love would have [p. 470] it that way.
GAT Thomas missed it because he was not with the company.
JT Yes. There is another thought in regard to the second chapter, the second half of which you might call provisional. It is what we have in the interval as a means of support and supply, pending the full accomplishment of the divine thought. We have already access to the Father by the Spirit, and are already fellow-citizens, and of the household of God, and already built upon the foundation of the apostles, and already a temple growing; there it is not complete, but growing. All that is provisional, although real and abiding as far as the work of God in us goes.
RSS That is very helpful, the distinction between the first and the last parts, the first anticipative, and the last provisional, for our present realisation.
JT They are wonderful things, but it is well to admit the truth that what we have now is not so great as what we shall have. What we have now is simply provisional, lying in the possession of the Spirit, pending the accomplishment of God’s purposes when all is complete.
RSS And it is largely in view of our access to the Father.
JLJ Does God have His inheritance now, in the assembly?
JT Yes, “in the saints”. Only it includes all saints — every family.