Reading 2—Saturday afternoon
Daniel 4: 1-3, 19-27, 34-37; 6: 10-11, 25-28
A.J.G. We had before us this morning especially the thought of continuance, having its roots in the fear of God and purpose of heart not to pollute oneself with the king’s delicate food. In chapters 3 to 6 we have a good scope of time covered during which Daniel continues, and then the Spirit of God at the end says that he prospered in the reign of Darius and in the reign of Cyrus. He continues and prospers notwithstanding changes in the kingdom, even being present when Babylon was taken and Darius took the kingdom, so he continued and prospered through crises, showing the power of one who is exercised in the fear of God in the sense that God is the Judge. These chapters bring in among other things God’s government in a remarkable way. In chapter 3 we find that Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, evidently entirely misapprehending the force of the dream that God had given him in the previous chapter, occupying himself with the head of gold and exalting the idea by making an image wholly of gold and commanding people to worship it, when God’s idea in giving him the dream was to shew that that which began with gold ended with clay and ended with it being broken to pieces, including the gold. It is an important thing that the dream of chapter 2 should be seen in its true light, that is to say it points on to the appearing, and establishes the fact that anything set up in the hands of men other than Christ is bound to deteriorate and be corrupted, but Nebuchadnezzar’s action becomes the occasion for the three companions of Daniel to be tested and to triumph, so that God is glorified. And then in chapter 4 we have Nebuchadnezzar remarkably sending throughout his dominions an account of the way God humbled him, which is a remarkable tribute to the grace of God’s ways, that one who was humbled so drastically under God’s hand should send an account of it throughout the whole of his dominions, because the whole of chapter 4 is what Nebuchadnezzar said to his subjects, so that it is a remarkable tribute to the grace and power of God’s governmental ways, that one who is outstandingly the subject of those ways wants everybody to know the wonders that the Most High had wrought towards him, and finishes up with the word that those that walk in pride he is able to abase. And then in chapter 5 we have what is in principle apostasy and closing up with immediate judgment, not now governmental ways that are characterised by grace, Nebuchadnezzar being bathed with the dew of heaven, but immediate judgment, and Daniel’s attitude toward Belshazzar is strikingly in contrast with his attitude toward Nebuchadnezzar, but in between—which we do not get in this book—we have of course the reign of Evil-Merodach, of whom we read in the last chapter of 2 Kings, who came to the throne of Babylon in “the thirty-seventh year” of Jehoiachin’s captivity, that is forty-five years after the book of Daniel begins, so that his reign comes in between Nebuchadnezzar’s reign and Belshazzar’s reign, Belshazzar being the last of the kings of Babylon. Evil-Merodach was one who was to some extent favourable to God’s people; and was used by God to lighten his governmental ways towards Jehoiachin, so that he was brought up out of prison by Evil-Merodach after thirty-seven years captivity. I only mention that to show that there is the line of God’s governmental ways going through this section, Daniel himself also being a subject of the government of God as suffering captivity.
N.K.McL. What is the analogy of this to our day?
A.J.G. I think on the one hand we have the sense that whatever arises in the world the Most High ruleth among men, things never get out of hand, and on the other hand in the sense of the ruin of the church we ourselves would walk humbly as conscious that the public position in the church is never to be remedied.
J.A.P. But to end in apostasy?
A.J.G. Yes, to end in apostasy. Daniel is able to express grace to Nebuchadnezzar and to explain this dream in chapter 4 in a most tender and affecting way, but he does not explain the vision that Belshazzar has, in the same way; while he is respectful, he says to Belshazzar “let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another”. That is the way he acted towards apostasy, but to Nebuchadnezzar he speaks very tenderly and says “therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity”, showing that he was one who was characterised by righteousness himself, and therefore he can appeal in that way.
W.M.B. Is there some analogy in the way that the Lord Jesus addressed Himself to Pilate, as representing the authority committed to men?
A.J.G. You mean he addressed him with a certain regard for the position that he was in.
W.M.B. Yes, he acted in a different way as regards Herod.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. I think that shows that as exercised to walk before God and with God we are to have His view of the situation at any time, do you think?
W.M.B. Yes, indeed.
F.C.H. “Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above”? John 19: 11 (KJV).
A.J.G. Yes, it is remarkable that as Nebuchadnezzar himself records the dream that he had he says that, “This sentence is by the decree of the watchers and the decision by the word of the holy ones: that the living may know that the Most High ruleth over the kingdom of men and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men”. That is what the dream said to Nebuchadnezzar. But Daniel does not exactly repeat that, he says “giveth it to whomsoever he will”, and says nothing about the basest of men, as though he would be ever tender in the way he applies the dream.
N.K.McL. In contrast he is unsparing in speaking to Belshazzar?
A.M.P. Are you thinking that God’s ways with Nebuchadnezzar show his humbling ways with men in this dispensation, whereas His ways with Belshazzar speak of the final judgment that belongs to what comes at the close of it?
A.J.G. Yes I thought so, and therefore that while the day of grace lasts we are to be kept in the spirit of grace in our attitude toward men, because although God’s governmental ways with Nebuchadnezzar were very severe yet at the same time he was bathed with the dew of heaven in those ways, a remarkable mingling of grace with severe discipline.
N.K.McL. Relief seems to come in when he lifts up his eyes unto the heavens, in verse 34. “At the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine unto the heavens and mine understanding returned unto me”. That is the outlook for us is it?
A.J.G. It is.
F.C.H. Do you think it is more important to be kept in the sense that God is over-ruling rather than to ask Him to over-rule?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right. It says in the scripture we were speaking of in 1 Timothy, “the blessed and only Ruler ... the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality”, so that in the presence of the greatest of men that seem to do just what they like, you remember that they have mortality, the only One who has immortality is God, and He is the only Ruler, the King of those that reign and Lord of those that exercise lordship,
W.H.K. Has the band of iron and brass on the stump of the tree any connection with that, linking it with rule and judgment?
A.J.G. I suppose there would be some sense of the inflexible rule of God in the iron and insistence on the judgment of evil in the brass, and yet there was this remarkable combination of being bathed with the dew of heaven.
A.W.G.T. That is that God’s grace and God’s government go on together?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so, and that is characteristic of the present time, until the apostasy.
W.M.B. Would you say a word about the constant references to the Most High God?
A.J.G. Do you think it is asserting the absolute supremacy of God, that there is none higher than He? What do you think?
W.M.B. I wanted some help about it; it seems to be an important title of God in this connection, involving His authority and perhaps also behind it His wonderful ways with men do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, you mean that they are morally elevated?
W.M.B. Yes, Luke’s gospel, “the Son of the highest”, and so on, would connect with this do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. But the Most High God certainly does seem to suggest that there is none higher than He. But as you say I think it is very helpful to recognise that there is a moral elevation about God’s ways, so that He says in Isaiah “my ways are not your ways”, and says that they are higher than our ways as the heavens are higher than the earth.
B.S. So Nebuchadnezzar calls him here “the King of the heavens” does he not? Would that be on the same line?
A.J.G. Yes it would, because after all Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold, and Daniel says later to Belshazzar, “whom he would he slew, and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he exalted, and whom he would he humbled”. He could do just what he liked, and yet there was One higher than he.
J.T.S. Would the title carry us back to Genesis 14 “He blessed him and said blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth”?
A.J.G. Yes quite so, so that as pilgrims here, as Abraham was, we are in relation with the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth. And are blessed by Him too, and now in the New Testament we can give an enlargement of that thought because we are in the light of the Father of whom every family in heaven and on earth is named.
G.R.C. So the Lord said “I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heavens and of the earth”.
A.J.G. It is very encouraging that the One who is the Most High is known to us in this day as Father.
G.R.C. Yes, and the Lord also says in Acts 1 that the Father has retained times and seasons in His own authority. In Daniel’s prayer we looked at this morning he says, “it is he that changeth times and seasons”, that is referred to in connection with the Father. I wondered whether Daniel passed through many seasons in his career, you were speaking about him continuing, but he knew how to behave himself in each season.
A.J.G. That is a very important matter, and really brings out how real are our links with God. And there is another thing that comes into this 4th chapter and that is the thought of the watchers and the holy ones, as to whether that is not intended to have some application in our day to ourselves, the saints, as having the Spirit and having the ability to have a right judgment as to all that is going on, as to how it affects God, whether there ought not to be this principle of watching and of praying in relation to what is seen going on as it affects God, so that although the decree is the decree of the Most High it actually is by the demand of the watchers and the holy ones. It says in verse 17 in the recording of the dream, “this sentence is by the decree of the watchers, and the decision by the word of the holy ones; that the living may know that the Most High ruleth over the kingdom of men”, but when Daniel interprets it he says “this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which cometh upon my lord the king”.
W.S.S. Do you mean that we all ought to be watchers?
A.J.G. Yes, and watchers with holy feelings, considering for God, not influenced by political consideration or bias or anything of that sort, but as holy ones.
W.S.S. So that the Lord says, “What I say to you, I say to all, Watch”. That has to do with conditions on earth has it not?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.H. Are you thinking that our hearts really need impressing with the fact that heaven is looking on?
A.J.G. Yes, and that the prayers of the saints have power.
A.H. I was wondering in that connection whether you would allow the thought of Ephesians 3: 10 to come into it, “in order that now to the principalities and authorities” and so on.
A.J.G. That is rather a question, is it not, as to how things are done in the assembly, and what is done in the assembly, but I just wondered whether this did not make room for the fact that the saints are intended to take account of what is happening in the world as it affects God, and to pray in relation to it, and their prayers have weight.
A.H. I see, I think that is helpful.
A.W.G.T. Would 1 Timothy 2 confirm that: where Paul says, “I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercession, thanksgivings be made for all men”, that is that we understand how to approach God in relation to matters as they affect Him. It may be sometimes by way of prayer, and another time by way of intercession?
A.J.G. Yes quite so,—intercession is that we use our place of nearness and influence with God on behalf of those who have not that place, so that at one time in the book of Isaiah we find it says that He wondered that there was no intercessor, as though He was looking to see whether anyone would take up that service of intercession.
G.R.C. In that verse which has been quoted which speaks of prayer for kings and all in dignity, does not that involve more than just a general prayer for the powers that be, as we speak? Do you think the confiding intercourse would suggest that we would have some intelligence as to how to approach God as to each ruler, possibly, who affects the course of the testimony?
A.J.G. I think we ought to be able to make a difference in that way. With some you could pray that God would support them and give them wisdom and help, because you see that the general trend of their administration is favourable to the testimony; but you may see others who are definitely opposed, and you would pray that their power might be weakened.
K.S. Is there an illustration of that in Acts 12, where Herod stretches forth his hand against certain of the assembly, and the brethren pray, and the result is Herod’s downfall, because it is against the testimony? It says he “laid his hands on some of those of the assembly to do them hurt, and slew James, the brother of John, with the sword”. And then it speaks of Peter, it says that “unceasing prayer was made by the assembly to God concerning him”.
A.J.G. Yes, that is concerning Peter, but then at the end of the chapter it says that “immediately an angel of the Lord smote him” (Herod), but that is not in answer to the prayers of the saints, that was “because he did not give the glory to God”, “And immediately an angel of the Lord smote him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he expired, eaten of worms. But the word of God grew and spread itself”. So that it is a very encouraging chapter. But the prayer in that chapter was made for Peter.
J.S.E. “The God in whose hand thy breath is ... hast thou not glorified”: it is equivalent to that is it?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.W.G.T. Except that we would hardly pray for judgment on anyone.
A.J.G. No, we could not pray for judgment on anyone, but you would pray that the power of what is definitely opposed to what is of God should be weakened, or held in restraint at any rate.
W.C.P. Is the prayer in the 4th chapter more in that character, “And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings”?
A.J.G. Yes, I was thinking that, that is more the character of prayer that we are speaking of.
N.K.McL. “There is He who restrains now until he be gone”.
A.J.G. Quite so, you feel that the Communist power is definitely opposed to all that is of God, but you can at any rate pray for it to be restrained, held in check.
G.R.C. I was thinking as to God’s outlook on men whom He is able to use in the sphere of government. I was thinking of His outlook on Nebuchadnezzar and then the way He speaks of Cyrus, “Cyrus ... my shepherd” (Isa 44: 28) and so on, is there a kind of indication that God has a certain regard for those He finds serviceable in that department?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. Nebuchadnezzar here of course arrogates the glory to himself in making the image of gold in chapter 3, but then God deals with that in His ways and subdues him, and the result is that he is converted and lets the whole of the dominion know about God’s ways, and finally glorifies God publicly. He is one of the few cases of kings that are preachers. Solomon is one and Nebuchadnezzar is another, a king that was a preacher.
R.W. God will come in in His own time and our service now is the service of prayer for men is it not?
A.J.G. Yes, because I think God loves to act in answer to the prayers of His people. He can do without us if He pleases, but I think He likes to bring us into the current of His thoughts and sympathy with His own mind and to act in answer to the prayers of His people.
R.W. So we would always embrace the thought of men in prayer would we not?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
E.R.S. Would it be God’s glory that He converts what we might call the proudest man on earth? I suppose at that time Nebuchadnezzar would be the proudest man on earth would he not, and Saul of Tarsus do you think in the New Testament?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. That was what God called Job’s attention to. He asked Job if he was able to look upon the proud and abase them, and of course he could not, but God can, that is just what He can do,
W.C. In Revelation 4 the four living creatures in the midst of the throne are full of eyes, and it says they say, “Holy, holy, holy”. I was thinking of the principle of the watchers and the holy ones, the agencies that God has to take account of things, and then it results in glory does it not, and then the elders say, “Thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created”. God secures His own end in glory, but He takes account of all these things going on and they are dealt with in His own time.
A.J.G. Yes. I believe it would help us to be more steady in our outlook and ways and to have a single eye on things as to how they affect God’s glory, if we could get the teaching of Daniel more into our minds.
W.C. I was thinking of the eyes in every direction. It is universal, even almost seeking to look beneath the surface, discerning the trend of things.
G.R.C. What marked Daniel was that he was representative of God in His attitude to each of these monarchs; he knew just how God felt towards them and acted accordingly. You can understand his attitude to Cyrus would be in line with God’s, an affectionate one. Would that be right?
A.J.G. I think so.
J.S.E. And to Belshazzar judicially.
A.J.G. Exactly.
W.S.S. So what you have been saying about the watchers seems to have an important bearing upon us, the identity, of what is in verse 17, the decree of the watchers, and verse 24, the decree of the Most High, is very striking is it not? And Nebuchadnezzar recognised the fact that the decree of the Most High is identified completely with what was—if we may use the expression—the mind of the watchers.
A.J.G. It is very striking that verse 17 is Nebuchadnezzar’s own account of the dream, that is what God said to him in the dream was that it was by the decree of the watchers, and the decision by way of the holy ones, as though God is honouring these watchers and holy ones.
W.S.S. How important that our view of Nebuchadnezzar or anything that Nebuchadnezzar represents should be in harmony with the Most High, God’s own view.
A.J.G. Exactly, so that when Daniel interprets the dream, he says it is the decree of the Most High, that would bring God before Nebuchadnezzar.
W.C. “God has judged your judgment upon her”. He confirms what the saints come to.
A.J.G. Quite so.
W.S.S. And then if our judgment is to be as God’s own judgment it means that we must be in communion, and study His thoughts as presented to us in scripture.
A.J.G. And I suppose no one who had not himself had some experience of God’s ways in government and been subject to them could rightly ask God to come in in government.
A.M.P. Because the principles that will come out publicly in a day to come are already in operation in the assembly and in the people personally.
L.W.T. Do we see the same impression of God’s attitude toward him when Agrippa said, “In a little thou persuadest me to become a Christian”?
A.J.G. I feel sure it must have been so, and it is striking that it says in that passage (Acts 26: 1) that “Paul stretching out his hand”—which is God’s attitude. He says, “all the day long I have stretched out my hands unto a people disobeying and opposing”, Rom 10: 21. It says “Paul stretching out his hand”,—as though there was a representation of God in his appeal in the way he addressed himself to Agrippa.
J.S.E. Are these watchers and holy ones symbolic of the great feature of jealous attentiveness to what is transpiring on the earth through certain agencies; they have to do with God about them so that the right restraint is put upon them?
A.J.G. Yes I think so.
J.S.E. So that could we justly think of the saints intelligently on that line?
A.J.G. I think we could.
J.S.E. And should not that provide some additional exercise for us in the midst of all that is going on today?
A.J.G. Yes it should; it is very striking that God’s ways with Nebuchadnezzar which were by the decree of the watchers, although they were necessarily severe because the man was so proud, yet they were so remarkably tinged with grace, showing that the watchers and holy ones were in accord with the grace of the moment.
F.A.W. Do we see something of the feature of the watcher in Paul writing to the Corinthians—the watchers and the holy ones?
A.J.G. We might say that in principle, only that of course has reference to the saints, and this has reference more to the world, what is going on in the world and those responsible for the government of it.
W.J.T. Jude’s prophecy refers to the holy myriads in relation to judgment, but that is in view of apostasy is it not?
A.J.G. “The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads”—yes.
J.S.E. Do we not have to keep our minds focussed on the fact that this is a temporary measure with Nebuchadnezzar? It is not a final matter; he is put right and put back in his kingdom with a view to expressing his appreciation of God’s ways. And should we not think that way when even some calamity may fall, where generally there is a favourable attitude towards the people of God.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
J.S.E. I was thinking about the man—I cannot think of his name6—who in the Reformation days prayed that the Lord would open the king of England’s eyes, did he not represent this feature of jealous attention to what is needed for the people of God? So he prays that way for the king.
A.J.G. Quite so, showing how much the saints as with God in their outlook and prayers may influence the course of things,
A.L.R.T. Would those be of the character of the prayers at the golden altar do you think?
A.J.G. Yes I would think so, because prayer at the golden altar is prayer that has the testimony in mind. The altar of incense was just opposite the ark of the testimony, the other side of the veil.
A.L.R.T. And that puts prayer does it not, on a very high plane—prayer of that character.
A.J.G. Yes, and the Lord would, in these days in which the Father is known to us, specially encourage us to take up the privilege of asking the Father in His Name.
W.M.B. You spoke about the dew of heaven, would you just amplify that a little.
A.J.G. It was part of God’s governmental ways of course, that he was bathed with the dew of heaven. It was severity in the sense that he was out in the open fields, so that the dew of heaven came upon him, but then the expression used, bathed with the dew of heaven—how gentle the dew is, it comes down from heaven—is surely intended to convey the impression of wonderful grace in the midst of severity of governmental ways.
W.S.S. The expression which goes before it is striking—“the tender grass of the field”?
A.J.G. Yes.
A.B.B. In Romans 11 Paul speaks about the goodness and severity of God, and at the end of the chapter he says, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him? for of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever, Amen”.
A.J.G. Well, the ways of God as they are taken account of certainly result in this praise to God, but the goodness and severity of God in that chapter is not exactly the combination of goodness and severity in His ways with the same person as it is here in Nebuchadnezzar’s case, there it is upon them who have fallen severity, upon thee goodness of God, if thou shalt abide in goodness, so that there the goodness and severity of God are employed in a discriminating way, here in this chapter they are combined in God’s ways with one man.
J.S.E. Do the two reigns, that of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, illustrate to us that you may, in what you think, have to adopt a different attitude at one part of the history of the kingdom to what you do in another?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that.
J.S.E. And is not that where we are tested as to this matter of understanding?
A.J.G. It is, and I thought that although we get no mention of it in this book the fact that the reign of Evil-Merodach comes in between would perhaps rather tend to emphasise the grace that God showed towards Nebuchadnezzar, and Evil-Merodach is to some extent affected by it in that he moves graciously towards king Jehoaichin. Belshazzar is unaffected by all these things, he follows Nebuchadnezzar and Evil-Merodach.
J.S.E. That was why I linked the verse in chapter 5 with the death of Herod, he died because he did not give God the glory and Daniel practically says the same to Belshazzar, does he not?
A.J.G. Yes.
J.A.P. I suppose while the assembly is here it would be on the line of grace and intercession would it not?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure.
A.M.P. And the whole of the assembly period is in the limits of these chapters is it not?
A.J.G. Yes.
Ques. Would Belshazzar’s sin in character be a “sin unto death”. There seems to be no appeal, or no mitigation of it?
A.J.G. Well, quite so; it is something so serious that it is not to be prayed for as you say, this is clearly apostate in principle.
W.C. I was thinking he is held responsible for having known what God had brought about in Nebuchadnezzar, not only the gospel itself in that way, but the work of God in the recovery of Nebuchadnezzar.
N.K.McL. Verse 22 says, “And thou, Belshazzar, his son hast not humbled thy heart, although thou knewest all this; but hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of the heavens”—which is apostasy?
W.C. But he does not appeal to him to humble himself, does he? It is something like, “Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still” at the end—it is fixed upon him.
A.J.G. There is no appeal to him to humble himself or move in righteousness and so on.
C.W.O’L.M. Are we not inclined to limit our prayers perhaps to the ruling authority in our own country, but what you are saying as to the testimony universally would exercise our hearts as to the powers that are ordained of God and ruling in all parts of the world, would it?
A.J.G. Yes indeed.
C.W.O’L.M. Because I suppose these various features are existent in different powers in the world at the present moment, all running their course are they not?
A.J.G. Yes, I suppose in the western part of the world it is really the last beast in principle, the fourth empire, whereas in the eastern part of the world it is largely Communism now.
C.W.O’L.M. I was thinking more that Nebuchadnezzar comes to it that the Most High rules in the kingdoms of men, but can we not be thankful that in our country, and in the States possibly, there is some acknowledgement of God in those who are ruling in the kingdoms of men, but there are other countries, are there not, where they are really infidel?
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.T.W. Can we go further in our prayers where Communism is reigning save to ask God to restrain?
A.J.G. I do not think we can go much further than that, as far as I see, we can ask Him to restrain, and we can ask Him to give wisdom to His saints under those conditions and it may be if it is His pleasure to grant them a measure of relief.
J.T.W. Does the fact that it is set up where Christianity has been, come into this: “although thou knewest all this”?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I think it is important to realise that, that Communism is apostasy, that is to say it has its roots in Russia which was once Christian, the Greek church was there, so that it is definitely apostate, and it may be that God may not weaken the power. He may hold it under restraint so that it does not unduly spread, but it may be His way to allow the Smyrna feature to come to light again in certain parts of the earth alongside of the Philadelphian feature in other parts of the earth, because those are the two churches with which the Lord has no fault to find.
A.L.R.T. Thinking of the Spirit as He who restrains, would that suggest that that would be perhaps the limit of our prayers, to pray for restraint, rather than a complete cessation of the will of man.
A.J.G. I do not think we can pray for a complete cessation of the will of man except as praying that “thy kingdom come, let thy will be done on earth as in heaven”. That is when there will be the complete cessation of the will of man.
E.A.E. Would you say these prayers should be addressed to the Father?
A.J.G. The Lord would encourage us to pray to the Father, that is John 16, “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you”, the Lord says, and He says “I say not to you that I will demand of the Father for you, for the Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me, and have believed that I came out from God”.
E.A.E. And the prayer from which you have quoted starts with, “Our Father”. I wondered whether that perhaps is what we are wanting help on, as to how to address our prayers intelligently?
A.J.G. I think the Lord would according to John’s gospel encourage us to take up the privilege of going, you might say, direct to the Father. I am not leaving out the thought of what is mediatorial, because it is in His Name, but I mean He says, “I say not to you that I will demand of the Father for you, for the Father himself has affection for you because ye have had affection for me, and have believed that I came out from God”. That is, we believe that there is a full declaration of God now, the full light of God is out, and that is here in testimony in the world, and we address our prayers to the Father in relation to that testimony.
E.A.E. I think that is helpful—thank you.
A.W.G.T. The Lord’s mediatorial service has put us in touch with the Father would you say?
A.J.G. Yes indeed.
G.R.C. Would you say a word about the fact that scripture tells us to pray for all men and tells us to pray for kings and those in dignity, but not exactly to pray for the world? Could you distinguish?
A.J.G. The world is a judged system if you think of the world as a system, but we are to pray for all men, because Christ has given Himself a ransom for all. That is, the attitude of God is grace toward all men, though we know, that all will not be saved.
G.R.C. Are we called upon to pray for kings and those in dignity because they have been entrusted with certain responsibilities by God? They have a kind of relationship to God.
A.J.G. Yes, they are part of God’s indirect government you might say. During this period when the testimony of grace is to have full course, it is necessary that the evil that is in the world should be held under a measure of restraint, and God is pleased to use government for that purpose, and so we recognise government abstractly as being from Himself, and you pray for it.
A.H. Would you say that the scripture we so often quote from 1 Timothy 2 really provides us with a great motive for prayer? “For this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For God is one”, and so on?
A.J.G. I think so. That is that we have that knowledge of God that His desire is that all should be saved. He does not will that any should perish.
W.S.S. And there is the intervening passage in that scripture, “for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity”. The saints are in mind in the prayer are they not?
A.J.G. Yes quite so, and it seems to me that we need more or less peaceful conditions, ordered conditions, for the full development and expression of the truth of the assembly; that is to say if there is widespread persecution, and the saints scattered, you can hardly get the truth of the assembly in expression, and, therefore you need tranquil conditions more or less for the truth of the assembly. Whereas other conditions God may use to bring to light that particular feature that was seen in Smyrna, of faithfulness unto death,
A.H. So that Paul goes on to say in that very chapter that he is a “teacher of the nations in faith and truth”. Would not that teaching involve all that goes into his ministry, the assembly?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
A.W.G.T. Were you thinking that the Smyrna feature might possibly come to light in a country like Russia?
A.J.G. That is what one has had in mind; we must not do any more than just suggest that it might be so, that is all, that if God is pleased to allow Communism a certain power over certain parts of the earth, in its avowed hostility to all that is of God, it may work out that way, the feature of assembly faithfulness seen in Smyrna re-appears alongside of the Philadelphian feature.
A.W.G.T. Was there not a certain savour of that about our brother Daniel Otsing?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so,
G.R.C. Mr R who has recently been to Berlin, and seen some of the brethren from the East Zone, in a letter says that he feels God is working out the Smyrna features in East Germany.
A.J.G. Really, that is remarkable.
-.P. Does it help us to recognise that the authorities exist because they are set up by God? I was thinking of Romans 13.
A.J.G. Just so, and the saints have to recognise that, so that when at last the beast asserts itself and claims to be worshipped, there is a special testimony warning people against doing homage to the beast (Rev 14: 9-10); of course by then the church will have gone, but for the time being authority has to be recognised as of God.
B.S. And pray for them in view of the prosperity of the saints, the prosperity here of what is of God?
A.J.G. Yes.
G.R.C. I wondered, referring to the elements of the image as carrying on to the end, whether we can see the silver character, the Persian character of silver character in the British empire for instance, which has been favourable for a long time to the people of God, and some of the rulers no doubt have been loved by God, whereas in some parts of the earth, the Grecian element, the brass, the atheist element that marked ancient Greece, is still there?
A.J.G. Quite so. Well now in chapter 6 we have the idea of prosperity coming into view particularly because it says at the end of the chapter, “this Daniel prospered”, drawing attention to what the man was, and that is what his enemies say in verse 5, “We shall not find any pretext against this Daniel, unless we find it against him touching the law of his God”, showing how well he was known. But now we come to a remarkable position under Darius, and that is that while Darius personally is favourable to Daniel, he is powerless because of what men in a body do. That is to say it is the system of Parliament, you might say, making laws that bind even the Sovereign, and they can be easily swayed against the truth, and of course it might extend to such things as unions and so on; it is men in a body; we get this expression “came in a body” three times in the chapter, in verse 6 and then verse 11, and then again in verse 15.
E.R.S. Do you mean that unbelieving men in a body urge one another on to what is worse?
A.J.G. Exactly, and that even though the ruling head might be favourable he may find himself in a position of weakness because of what men in a body do, and the power that there is in men in a body, in Parliament for instance, to operate against the saints by means of legislation.
E.R.S. I was thinking too that in unions men in a body like that would do things that they would not do individually.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
J.T.W. Are we to be encouraged that notwithstanding that Daniel prospered in it?
A.J.G. Quite so, because he had God’s interests at heart. “When Daniel knew that the writing was signed he went into his house; and, his windows being open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled on his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime”.
W.S.S. So that one man in the light of the assembly typically is greater than any number of men moving in a body.
A.J.G. Exactly, and God can use him to completely nullify all that they would do.
W.S.S. Would it bring home to us the importance of the separate position, the importance of our position if we are true to it?
A.J.G. Yes, it does. This links very much with Psalm 122, where it says, “pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee”. And “this Daniel” is just marked by the love of Jerusalem, and he prospers.
N.K.McL. There is no evidence of the slightest spirit of fear with Daniel?
A.J.G. No, and as we were saying this morning, assuming that he was somewhere round about 18 in the first chapter, he would be about 86 by this time.
F.C.H. Would the “aforetime” almost go back to the way in which he confided in others and they took up the exercise together to God, “as he did aforetime”?
A.J.G. Well, it would include that, but I thought it just meant that it had always been his practice.
J.S.E. The writing did not interfere with it.
A.J.G. No.
W.S.S. One thing that has struck me is the importance of the assembly in relation to these matters. Reference was made to Hebrews 12, where we have the assembly and then God, Judge of all, and now we have the thought of the assembly on the one hand in relation to the ruling powers. If our outlook is not an assembly outlook, we will not have a right judgment of things, and we will not know how to pray for the authorities.
A.J.G. No, exactly, but if we see that God’s greatest interest on earth is the assembly and that His thoughts regarding it are going through, then we have something to pray about, and if legislation is passed that in its results is going to be opposed to the assembly we can pray in relation to it and God may alter it.
W.S.S. So the great position presented to us here in Daniel 6 is one who had a right assembly outlook?
A.J.G. Yes.
W.J.T. He gives thanks too, showing he knew the God who delivers don’t you think?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
N.K.McL. He would be one who was faithful unto death, you referred to in Smyrna?
A.J.G. He is prepared to be, but God does not allow him to die. He has got Daniel in mind to go right through, God allowed James to be slain by Herod, but then he did not allow Peter to be slain by Herod, I think it is very encouraging the names the Lord gives to James and John—Boanerges—that is sons of thunder, that is James seals his testimony with his blood, he dies for the truth, but John goes through in life, and those were two great testimonies; they are like sons of thunder, they are two great testimonies that God has given in the world that men have to take account of—that is what thunder is, it is God’s voice that men have to take account of, there are those who die rather than surrender the truth, and there are those whom God sees go through in life right through to the end. Those are two undeniable testimonies that men cannot gainsay.
A.C. Is it not a fact that spiritual prosperity invites attack? I was thinking of Joseph in Genesis 39. It speaks of the man being prosperous, and then there is the subsequent attack by Potiphar’s wife. Would you say that where there is this prosperity, as with Daniel, there is always the enemy attacking in some way and another?
A.J.G. Yes, there is, but then the two great guarantees of prosperity are given us in Psalm 1, and Psalm 122. Psalm 1 gives a basis of piety, “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, and standeth not in the way of sinners, and sitteth not in the seat of scorners; But his delight is in Jehovah’s law, and in his law doth he meditate day and night ... and all that he doeth prospereth” and then the Psalm 122, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee”. Those two Psalms really give the secret of prosperity.
W.S.S. And does not this book that we are considering show us that the attacks that the enemy may make on the testimony may lead to a greater prosperity?
A.J.G. That is it, we were having it this morning, that one result is that Nebuchadnezzar glorifies God, he does in chapter 2 and he does again in chapter 4 and now in chapter 6 Darius makes a decree that in every dominion men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel, for he is the living God and steadfast for ever.
C.W.O’L.M. Has prosperity in view fruit for God rather than what is personal?
A.J.G. I think so. Have you something in mind in saying that specially?
C.W.O’L.M. No, I was going to ask you to say a little more as to the principle of continuance and prospering.
A.J.G. Continuance, of course, really calls for purpose of heart and steadfastness, “in patient continuance of good works”, we read in Romans 2, but then prosperity is, I suppose, the result, and certainly has in mind what is for the pleasure of God. So I was thinking of Jotham’s parable, they say to the olive tree, “Reign over us” and the olive tree said to them, “Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man”, Judg 9: 9. Well, that is prosperity, and prosperity in the saints really honours God.
A.M.P. May I just call attention to the additional blessing that we get in the Songs of degrees in addition to the personal blessing that we have in the book of Leviticus, I am quoting from Psalm 128, “Behold, thus shall the man be blessed that feareth Jehovah. Jehovah will bless thee out of Zion, and mayest thou see the good of Jerusalem all the days of thy life”. Is that not what belongs to those who have an assembly outlook in the last days?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure. They see the good of Jerusalem.
W.C. Gaius is an example of one prospering in adverse conditions, at the end, John desires that in all things he should prosper and be in health as his soul prospers. The other part of the epistle shows that condition were very testing and adverse.
W.M.B. Say a word as to “the living God, and steadfast for ever”. Had he seen those two features, life and steadfastness in Daniel himself, do you think?
A.J.G. I think so, it seems to me that this book is very encouraging as showing that if we have God before us, we shall be steadfast whatever changes may arise in the course of things down here.
W.S.S. You would not confine that to individuals, would you? I am thinking of attacks on the truth among the saints.
A.J.G. You mean the truth will go through.
W.S.S. Yes, and that we are with God in the enemy’s attack, and then there will be prosperity as the result of it, we need not be discouraged?
A.J.G. No, exactly. I think what Job says at the end when he is converted: “Thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine”, is a most encouraging thing to lay hold of, because you see God’s great thoughts regarding the assembly and it gives you confidence that they will go through and be realised at the end.
C.W.O’L.M. Does not the service of God depend on these matters, continuance and prosperity?
A.J.G. I think it does, exactly.
A.H. Is that anything like Philadelphia, “thou … hast kept my word and not denied my name”?
A.J.G. You might say that is continuance, and I would say that what the Lord promised to the overcomer is prosperity, because you get every feature of the truth almost assured to the overcomer.
R.W. Does it fit in with the end of the book of Daniel in that way, “thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of days”.
A.J.G. Well, that is a promise to Daniel is it not, a kind of reward to him, that he is to “go thy way”, and there is that contrast between Daniel and our day that in Daniel’s day what was given to him was sealed, “go thy way, Daniel; for these words are closed and sealed till the time of the end”, but when we come to Revelation we find that John is told not to seal them because the time is at hand. Those things now are imminent, so far as we are concerned.
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