Reading 2—Saturday morning
A.J.G. The thought in mind is to see how the idea of Christ Jesus gives character to Christianity. Yesterday evening we had the first part of the second epistle to Timothy, where we have been called with a holy calling according to God’s purpose and grace given us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time, but now made manifest, and that Paul wrote as an “apostle of Jesus Christ by God’s will, according to the promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus,” and we were stressing that “the life which is in Christ Jesus” is brought in in view of the days of departure from the truth in which we are, as that in the power of which the testimony is maintained at its true level; and, as was remarked in prayer, it is a very elevated thought, the thought of what is “in Christ Jesus”, and yet it works out in what is very practical, for life is practical, and, therefore, while we should be concerned to embrace God’s thoughts which are elevated, we should have in mind that they work out in what is practical, for there is no value in the testimony if it is not practical. I thought perhaps we might now come back to what is basic, because the epistle to the Romans is basic, and we need to be established in Romans. Mr Darby once said that a good Roman can go anywhere, and I understand what he meant by that was that if we are established in the good of Romans we find no difficulty in moving into any feature of the truth, and the reason for that is that in Romans we come to the definite recognition of the Spirit as the power for life, and the power for everything in the things of God, and unless that is arrived at, we find difficulty in moving rightly in the things that are truly ours. So this passage in Romans 6 has in mind how we are to be delivered from the principle of sin regarded as something outside of us, regarded as something that is seen dominating the world in which we actually are, although morally we should be delivered from it. We are delivered from it on the lines of first apprehending God’s thoughts as set out in Christ, and having our mind in the same direction so that we reckon according to God. Then we come to the appreciation of Christ in chapter 7 as the new husband, and of the Spirit as power in chapter 8. But this chapter 6 begins with challenging us as to whether we have taken time to consider what we were committed to in baptism, that we have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, that is, Christ Jesus is before us in Christian baptism, but then the form our baptism took is a baptism unto death, and these two things are to be kept in mind; “unto Christ Jesus” on the one hand, that leads up to reckoning ourselves alive to God in Christ Jesus, but a baptism to death on the other hand. These two things held in our minds become the means by which we get a right outlook on how we are to live down here, as it says, in “newness of life”. We may come to Corinthians towards the end of the meeting, because that is also, you might say, basic, but having the collective position in mind, the assembly position. I think we need to be clear in our minds as to how sin is looked at in this sixth chapter. It is regarded as a dominating principle which governs the whole world and governs each of us naturally, that is independence of God and living to ourselves, and we have to be saved from it as a basic matter before we can get any distance in power in the things of God.
G.R.C. Is the world in that aspect typified by Egypt?
A.J.G. Yes, and hence the people of God had to be brought out from Egypt if they were either to serve God acceptable in the wilderness or enter into the land of His promise. There is a very striking word in Ezekiel that one of the Pharaoh says, “My river is mine own, and I made it for myself”, chap 29: 3. That exactly describes the principle of sin, that he regarded the resources that the Nile provided for Egypt as his own, and he had made it for himself. That is, God was entirely out of his reckonings; there was independence of God, and self-sufficiency, and himself as the object of his life, and that is the idea of sin, it not only marks the world as a principle, but it marks every one of us naturally.
G.R.C. Actually, God is the source of all the world’s resources and they rob Him of them, do they not?
A.J.G. Yes, and God is really the end too, in view, in all that He has given.
E.L.C. Is there some reference to that in the scripture in Corinthians, “and all were baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea”? Would “in the cloud” have some suggestion of the recognition of God acting for them, and “the sea”, the waters of baptism?
A.J.G. I think so. The cloud would bespeak the presence of God with them, and the sea, as you say, would point to death.
G.R.C. Would you say a word as to why the title “Christ Jesus” is brought in here—“baptised unto Christ Jesus”—we usually look upon Moses as the type here, but maybe he hardly goes as far as Christ Jesus typically?
A.J.G. No. I do not know that he does. He is a type of the Lord, but Christ Jesus is a very exalted thought, because it is the Man who has, from the very outset, been in God’s purpose. He is no after-thought, nor is He exactly presented primarily in relation to existing conditions, though as known, of course, through faith, He has His bearing on existing conditions, but I understand that Christ Jesus is Christ viewed as the Man who from the very start, has been in the mind of God to bring in. Hence it involves the incarnation, and it having been in the mind of God that Man of such a morally exalted character should be brought in, and that all God’s thoughts concerning man, upon whom He set His love, should be made good in Him, necessitating, of course, redemption and the gift of the Spirit; but Christ Jesus is, I think, that view of Christ, as the Man who has all along been in the mind of God, a divine Person become Man.
G.R.C. It seems very wonderful that in the very first living movement of faith, it says, “By faith they passed through the Red Sea”; that the Lord, in that character you speak of, should be before the soul, as though God’s end is before us from the beginning.
A.J.G. Well, quite so, because the thoughts of God were before them before they moved out of Egypt. He had promised that He would bring them into a land flowing with milk and honey and so on, a land which as Ezekiel says, He “espied for them,” so that the full thoughts involved in God’s purpose were really in mind before they were brought out of Egypt.
A.L.B. Is that further illustrated by the song in Exodus 15, that immediately after the baptism in the Red Sea, there is a reference to, “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance”, v 17.
A.J.G. I was thinking of that, “plant them” there, that is, establish them there permanently—“in the mountain of thine inheritance”—so that it is a question of what God has chosen for His own portion.
A.J.F. You referred in this chapter to sin being the sin system that is around us, as we understand this great matter of baptism, can we be clear from it in our spirits as Christ is now?
A.J.G. Yes, that is the idea, that we have to follow the matter intelligently, and take it up in our minds, and then the gracious service of Christ, the support of Christ, and the power of the Spirit come in to make it a real thing with us.
E.J.F. Do you think that sometimes confusion may arise in our minds because we apply this thought of reckoning, or try to, to what is within?
A.J.G. I think it does. This chapter has in mind sin as outside of us, the governing principle that dominates the world, and dominates us, save as we are delivered from it.
F.G.S. Is it important that in our third verse Christ Jesus is referred to before the reference to His death? Is it that in being baptised we have before us this glorious Man who was in the mind and thought of God?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is important, but then the form our baptism took was a baptism unto death, that is essential because the acceptance of death is the way out from that which otherwise would hold us in bondage. The Lord has not entered into death from Himself, one need not say, He has entered into death for us, He has been buried for us, He has been raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father for us. The Father has operated in that glorious way in raising up from amongst the dead the Lord Jesus, and setting Him in His presence as Man, and now there He lives absolutely to God. God is before Christ, Christ as Man has God absolutely before Him as the One to whom He lives, and that position has come about in order that we might see that it is God’s thought for us.
J.W.C. So that the Spirit would help us to take up in our minds every position that Christ has been into as Man.
A.J.G. Yes.
F.E.S. Would you see the practical bearing of baptism in chapter 7 where the woman is relieved from the link with her husband on the principle of death? I was just thinking of “baptised unto … death”: what a clean break it makes with all that sin has to say to.
A.J.G. That is what the Spirit of God works out in this part of the epistle, that death is the great means of salvation for us, from everything that has held us, and we, in the gospel, commit ourselves to Christ and His death; we appropriate His death, which was actual in His case, to ourselves, because it was for us; we appropriate it, indeed we are not honest if we do not.
E.J.F. Would you say how we link on, as it says in verse 5, “identified with him in the likeness of his death”, I notice the word, according to the note is, ‘grown up with’. What is conveyed to you in that?
A.J.G. I think it is a position you take up in your mind, and then as one has said, the grace of Christ and the power of the Spirit come in to make it real, to support you in it, but first of all we have to take things up in our minds, and ask ourselves why is it Christ died—it was not for Himself, it was for us. What is the import of it then? This part of the epistle is full of questions, “What then shall we say?” “Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?” That is to say the apostle sets out the truth, and now he says, what are you going to say to it? Have you taken time to consider it and its import?
E.J.F. And in carrying that on then is ‘reckoning’ a matter of the mind too?
A.J.G. Yes, but it is not an unreal reckoning, it is not a reckoning for which there is no basis, it is a reckoning in the light of what has actually come to pass in Christ.
E.L.C. That reckoning seems to have some effect does it not?— “so we also should walk in newness of life.”
A.J.G. That is what is in mind, that we are not dead persons, we are living persons. Ephesians views us morally as dead in trespasses and sins, and then God has quickened us, but Romans views us as living persons on the earth, but the point is on what principle are we going to live? It is a question of walking in newness of life, a life that is governed by entirely new principles, and that is that we reckon ourselves alive to God in Christ Jesus.
F.W.B. So that in this epistle, are not things arrived at as a result of some practical experience in our soul’s history, that is life is arrived at by the acceptance of the principle of death?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. I think we can see if we keep the type of the children of Israel coming out of Egypt in mind, that though they were sheltered by the blood, they were not free from Egypt until they had actually gone through the Red Sea, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. That is to say, they really moved into death, and found that moving into death was the way out from Egypt, and the power of Pharaoh was completely broken as they took that course. So if in our minds we understand that we are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus, that becomes our salvation. If someone asks you to join in with something that is connected with the world, or if your own natural impulse is just to please yourself, you find deliverance from that by reckoning in your mind that you are dead to that whole principle of sin, and that you are alive to God in Christ Jesus.
E.C.L. Are we encouraged to take up what is already done for us, the word to the children of Israel was, “Speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward”? Is there not sometimes a need of encouragement, particularly to a young person, to take up the ‘going forward’?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. This chapter 6 is the going forward. It is the going forward into the Red Sea, you might say, and finding it a protection and a salvation.
J.O.S. So in Hebrews 11 it says, “By faith they passed through the Red Sea”. It was the first exercise of faith was it?
A.J.G. Yes, it was.
E.T.H. You spoke earlier of the moral excellence of Christ, is that what gives character to the whole epistle?
A.J.G. Well it gives character I would say to Christianity, that is what makes Christianity so different from all that went before, that it is characterised by the heavenly Man, a divine Person in manhood. If we could think about that more I think we would be impressed with the sense that it must be a morally elevated order of manhood that has now come in in Christ, and God has set us up in Christ by the Spirit, and we are entitled to prove the Spirit as the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
F.E.S. So would you say that “in Christ Jesus” would involve a wonderful system which is capable of fully satisfying all the affections, and providing for us an answer to all that we have to leave as leaving Egypt, all that it proposes with its river.
A.J.G. Surely, it is sufficient to satisfy the heart of God too, all that He looks for in man is found in Christ Jesus.
F.C.M. Is that why there is a reference here in this setting to the glory of the Father?
A.J.G. I think it is. There may be more in it, but it seems to me that the glory of the Father suggests, at any rate, the idea of the Father’s love working in power to claim for itself that which was pleasing to Him, so that the Father has wrought in power to raise up Man from among the dead in the Person of Christ, but not simply to have Christ personally before Him, but because He had in view to have man before Him in that order of Man.
J.W.C. So that in the new creation there would be nothing denied God would there? There was much denied Him in the first. I was thinking especially of man, but in the bringing in of new creation in Christ, every desire of God will be met.
A.J.G. Well, indeed, and it is well to bear in mind, I think, that even Adam innocent was not enough to satisfy the heart of God, He was, after all, only brought in as a figure, he was wonderful, but at the same time, he was never more than of the earth, earthy. He was not to be compared with the second man out of heaven.
G.R.C. So that the Lord Jesus says, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink … out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”. That is in contrast to Egypt’s river would it be? The Spirit flowing freely like that?
A.J.G. Yes. I think so.
F.F. So in Romans 6 as you have implied, there is a very distinct link with John’s gospel in the glory of the Father, the satisfaction of His love you were speaking about.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. It is one of the few instances in Romans that we get the Father mentioned; in the main Romans is occupied with God, God and man. I think I am right in saying that the Father is not mentioned more than four times, whereas God is mentioned more than one hundred and fifty times in Romans. But I think we can see that this idea of “raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father” suggests that something has now come in that the Father can rest in with unbounded delight. It is not only Christ personally, although He must be pre-eminent and give character to all, but it is the idea of having man before God in that order of Man, for His pleasure, and we are to take account of ourselves in that light, that we are alive to God in Christ Jesus.
J.W.C. So you get the expression “to God” repeated again and again, from the 11th verse onwards.
A.J.G. Yes, it is the idea of having the creature in right relations with God, and yet in the most exalted relations, so that God can find profound pleasure in him.
A.A.B. It says in Exodus 16, that when they turned towards the wilderness, the glory of Jehovah appeared to them in the cloud. Would that correspond at all with the reference to glory here?
A.J.G. I suppose so. I think the natural tendency with us when we are young is to think that, as brought to Christ, we are brought into a position where things are going to be difficult, and where we shall be cut off from this and that and so on, whereas, perhaps, if we got an impression at the start of the glory of what we are connected with, and the wonderful privilege and liberty of living to God, it would help us.
A.A.B. There are great resources to sustain life in the wilderness.
A.J.G. Yes, there are.
F.E.S. Would the idea of the glory of the Father just bring in the thought that there is something in the way of a divine family with God, and His people are going to share in it; the idea of God would perhaps leave Him at somewhat of a distance, but God as Father seems to bring Him near.
A.J.G. Quite so, and yet it is well to bear in mind that it is God and man in the main throughout Romans, but still, as you say, the idea of the Father, God known in that name, brings in a kind of modifying influence, so that the majesty and supremacy of God do not terrorise us or bring in any thought of distance.
E.L.C. What is the thought of “if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him”?
A.J.G. Is it not that we learn to identify ourselves in mind with Christ in every position that He has taken? He has died and that was for us, and so in our minds, we take it up that we have died with Christ, but then the matter does not stop there; He has been raised again, He is living, living to God and therefore we take it up, that that is God’s mind for us too, that we are alive to God in Christ Jesus.
E.L.C. So wherever He is as Man we have a part with Him, or shall have.
A.J.G. Yes—and then I think “in Christ Jesus” involves not only an objective thought, that we see God’s thoughts set out before us objectively in Christ where He is, but it involves a certain thought of power, that is of our being energised, so to speak, by Christ Jesus, the influence of Christ making itself felt upon us, so that it is really life, it is life in Christ Jesus.
A.J.M. Is that why it refers to our being saved in the power of His life?
A.J.G. Well, yes, I think so.
A.L.B. In that subjective thought is there any link with the thought of circumcision? I was recalling that when Israel came into the land and were circumcised at Gilgal, it says, the reproach of Egypt was rolled away. I wondered whether in passing through the Red Sea there was death and deliverance from Egypt on that line, but the reproach of Egypt, so to speak, clung to them until the thing was accepted practically in circumcision.
A.J.G. I think that is right, so that Paul takes it up in Philippians and says, “we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God”; that is their worship was entirely in the power of God’s Spirit, “and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh”, chap 3: 3.
E.J.F. What part has this knowledge that is referred to in verse 6 that you are speaking of? It seems very far reaching, it speaks of the old man being crucified, and the body of sin annulled.
A.J.G. Well if the man is crucified then there is nothing that can appeal to him. I think that is how it works, we escape from things by death. Obviously if I have died and someone came along and asked me to go somewhere with them, I should be unresponsive, I have died. That is the idea, that you escape from the power of things by dying. We are entitled to appropriate to ourselves what Christ has done for us.
G.R.C. You have spoken a good deal about being baptised to His death. Is it not a fact that at the Red Sea death was very prominent, but it was a protection, they were glad of it, at Jordan death was out of sight?
A.J.G. Quite so. I really think if we would only get the divine view of this 6th of Romans, it would help us immensely, because it delivers us from self-will. We tend to think that we are delivered from the world because we are apart from it as a system, but John says in his epistle, “Love not the world, nor the things in the world”. And that is the great danger with us, that while delivered from the world as a system, we bring the principles of the world into our own life, and that spoils everything, and I believe that is what is represented by Jericho. Jericho had to be overthrown before they could really enter upon the land. I believe Jericho is not so much a system, but it is principles, the principles of the world brought into the Christian circle and it has to be overthrown.
J.O.S. Is that why in Hebrews 11 the two things are put together? It says, “By faith they passed through the Red Sea as through dry land”, and the very next verse, “By faith the walls of Jericho fell, having been encircled for seven days”. The two things are put together.
A.J.G. Well now the way for deliverance from all that is death. Obviously if I have died then any element of independence or pleasing oneself, or anything of that sort, that the world might suggest to me, will find me unresponsive. You cannot get anything out of a dead man.
M.L.J.M. Would that be the practical working out of the thought of walking in newness of life, which follows immediately on the question of the glory of the Father.
A.J.G. Yes, an entirely new principle and character of life, and I think it is simply this, that we are alive to God in Christ Jesus.
F.E.S. Is that worked out in chapter 8, that you have referred to?
A.J.G. Yes, “the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free”, the apostle says, “from the law of sin and of death.” We must be governed by something, it is a principle with God that things are regulated according to principle, that is, there are the laws of nature and so on, and so there is “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”, that simply means the regulating principle of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets one free from the dominating principle of sin and death.
F.W.B. Paul refers in verse 17 of chapter 6 to the fact that those to whom he was writing had obeyed from the heart the form of teaching. Does that enter into this matter you have in mind? The result is that things take shape substantially in the heart as the result of obedience.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
G.R.C. Verse 6 was referred to just now, which brings in crucifixion, then death, then burial, is there not?
A.J.G. Crucifixion expresses God’s abhorrence of the old man. The cross of Christ has a two-fold bearing, as we read in Galatians. Paul says, “But far be it from me to boast save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world”, chap 6: 14. The cross represented God’s abhorrence of sin and His judgment of it; it also represented the world’s hatred of Christ and contempt for Him, and so there is a two-fold bearing to crucifixion, but here I think it is that it is God’s abhorrence of sin.
G.R.C. I think that helps. It would help us in distinguishing different thoughts.
F.W.Tn. Would you say why it says, “our old man” in the plural?
A.J.G. It is what is common to us all, I suppose.
M.L.J.M. In Galatians 2 he refers to being “crucified with Christ”, and then speaks of living in relation to Christ in the same verse: would that go along with what you say, v 20?
A.J.G. It does, very much. Paul is the great one who accepted to the full the cross and death and burial of Christ, as no one else did, I believe, so that I believe he is suggested in the chief of David’s mighty men, a man of whom we hear but little, except in the account of the mighty men, but what distinguishes him is that he slew eight hundred at one time. It does not say what kind of enemies they were, whether they were Amalekites, or Philistines or what they were, and looking at it literally you wonder how he did it, how he could slay eight hundred at one time, but I believe the counterpart of that is Paul, and the secret of it is that he reckoned himself as crucified with Christ, and that means that if that is maintained in our souls, eight hundred wicked influences can be brought to bear upon us at one time and we are immune from them, because they cannot do anything with a dead man. The secret of safety is true self-judgment in the acceptance of the cross.
M.L.J.M. So that he says, “Christ lives in me”.
A.J.G. Yes, he was not left as a man with no existence. Paul was crucified with Christ and yet Paul was living, but he says, it is not I, but Christ living in me.
E.C.L. So that the cross was part of God’s arrangement for our learning afterwards. The Jews said to Pilate that it was not permitted to them to put anyone to death, but they did not ask for permission when they stoned Stephen. All was divinely ordered in the case of the Lord so that He should be crucified.
A.J.G. That is very striking, how God ordered it so that the Lord should be crucified.
E.C.L. I wondered whether it was to bring into prominence on the one hand what the old man is, and on the other hand, the glory of Christ Jesus, showing how God arranges all that Christ Jesus might be gladly accepted by all of us.
A.J.G. And so the cross becomes a lesson book to us, it is not an honourable death, it is a most ignominious death, expressing God’s abhorrence of sin, sin in the flesh, and of the old man, and expressing on the other hand, the world’s contempt for Christ.
F.G.S. Then does chapter 8 show that not only am I immune from all these wicked influences but that there is nothing that can be brought against me?
A.J.G. Exactly, there can be no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. The position is entirely outside of any thought of condemnation. In Christ Jesus, you might say, is a position come in according to God’s purpose, but then in grace He has accomplished redemption—it says, “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus”—so that those who were in God’s mind, though under the power of sin and subject to death, might be brought into that position. Redemption is in Christ Jesus, established there, and there can be no possibility of condemnation attaching to that position. “There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”.
F.G.S. And he enlarges on that again later in the chapter, “Who shall bring an accusation against God’s elect? It is God who justifies … Christ who has died”.
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.W.C. Could you help us as to why it should say, “For the law of the Spirit of life”, not the law of life, but the law of the Spirit of life?
A.J.G. Because it is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit and He has that character, “the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”. When the Lord rose from the dead He breathed into the disciples. It was pattern, as far as I understand it was not actual, that is to say, the actuality of it was on the day of Pentecost, but it was pattern to show that in the Spirit they would partake of His own life as Man. The Spirit is “the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.”
J.O.S. If we are in Christ Jesus we are morally outside of the place where all the ruin is, is that the force of it, “no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”?
A.J.G. Well, quite so, but then think of our being held under the living influence of Christ—Christ Jesus. What kind of influence is He likely to exert on all those who have His Spirit; I mean how little we know of the exceeding moral glory and elevation of the Man Christ Jesus.
A.J.M. Do you think Elisha understood the principle when he asked for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit in view of continuing in the power of the one who had gone up?
A.J.G. Quite so, I think it shows that he felt himself to be entirely unequal to the position, and therefore asked for a double portion.
A.A.L. Why is it a personal matter, set me free?
A.J.G. Because it is a practical matter, it is just that I am free if I am free, and I cannot exactly predicate it of others.
A.A.L. Would it mean that you have been moving feelingly through Romans 6, is that it, so that it is a real matter with you?
A.J.G. I think so, yes. Paul could exemplify the truth, so he says, “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free”. It was a practical matter with him.
G.R.C. Would you mind saying why verse 2 of chapter 8 is put as a consequence of verse 1 or at any rate is linked with it by the word ‘for’? Does it mean that he arrived at verse 1 by the way of verse 2?
A.J.G. I thought perhaps it rather meant that his experience in verse 2 came into accord with the truth that he apprehended as set out in verse 1. That is objectively we can see that there can be no possibility of condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, but then practically, as governed by “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”, you move in a way in which there is no sense of condemnation, there is nothing on the conscience.
A.L.B. Is that why in the first verse it is in the plural, “those in Christ Jesus” such as in verse 6 of chapter 6, it is in the plural, but then as our brother has pointed out, in verse 2 it is in the singular.
A.J.G. I think so, so there should be correspondence practically in our lives with what our position is before God, that is that Christianity is to be substantiated in life, and testimony to it is to be borne in life, and that makes it essentially practical.
R.D. Would you say a word as to “yield yourselves to God” in contrast to the reckoning, “alive to God”?
A.J.G. It would be a part of the reckoning, I think, or it would be a consequence of it, that that is what we take up now, we yield ourselves to God, and then that is to be a practical matter, it says, “your members instruments of righteousness to God”. That is our hands and our feet, what we actually do and where we go, so there is no thought with the Christian of saying I am entitled to please myself, for instance, I am entitled to do what I like. There is no such thought in a Christian’s mind if he is governed by the truth. He is yielded to God, “alive to God in Christ Jesus”.
G.R.C. As regards verse 14 of chapter 6, “sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under law but under grace”, is grace there developed in its fulness in chapters 7 and 8, in the way it has provided for everything?
A.J.G. I think so, the new husband in chapter 7, “to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead”. There is great grace in that, you are not under any principle of feeling that you ought to be this and you must do that, you just hold yourself in relation to Christ, and the influence of Christ is so great and precious, that it affects you and holds you: and it is very practical too. Later in the epistle it says, “the Christ also did not please himself”. Well now, that has an effect upon you.
F.E.S. So does the practical link of chapter 7 come in in the way Christ acquires a place personally in our affections? Is that the idea of being to another?
A.J.G. Quite so, and then the Spirit in chapter 8 comes in alongside of that, and He is God’s Spirit, stressing there is a divine Person, divine power operating, so that what we have been speaking of should be real.
J.W.C. So it is the answer to his cry in chapter 7, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me”.
A.J.G. Yes, he says, “I thank God”. The answer to the ‘who’ is God, and so in chapter 8 the Spirit is prominent, that is that it is God Himself in the Spirit that takes possession of the believer, a most wonderful thing, so that it is God all the way through.
J.W.G. Does “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” really refer to the way we come under regulation, thinking of the believer walking in newness of life, whether it does not point to regulation for the believer here?
A.J.G. It does. We are all governed by some principle, whether we know it or not. If I am living to myself that is the principle that governs me, that I just do what I like, and the gospel comes in to deliver me from that.
M.L.J.M. So he says in verse 25 of the previous chapter, “So then I myself with the mind serve God’s law”.
A.J.G. ‘Myself’, yes, and before that he says, “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man”. You find there is a something in you as the result of the work of God which corresponds morally with Christ, who said, “I delight to do thy will, O my God”.
E.C.L. So that our occupation is to be with that Man, and not with ourselves. Introspection does not lead you anywhere does it? It brings you back into bondage.
A.J.G. Yes, but it is a wonderful thing that God has set us in relation to Himself in Christ Jesus, “alive to God in Christ Jesus”. I thought in Corinthians we have the collective position of the assembly of God in its testimony here, “the assembly of God which is in Corinth” it says. But then it is composed of “those sanctified in Christ Jesus”, sanctified simply means set apart, set apart to God in Corinth, that is to say, it is still a practical matter, it is what is to be seen down here in Corinth, or in Ilford, or in London, or in the different places where the saints are set; that there are certain persons of whom it can be said that they are sanctified in Christ Jesus.
J.O.S. What does that mean?
A.J.G. Well, set apart to God, so that while to outward appearance you are an ordinary man like other men, and you do the same things that other men do, you go to business and all that kind of thing and engage in housework, the principle of your life and the power of it are entirely different; it is life in Christ Jesus that regulates you and you are set apart to God in that Man.
E.C.L. Is that by divine calling?
A.J.G. It is.
E.C.L. So that the link with the latter part of the chapter which you made is interesting in that way. There is nothing to credit anyone according to flesh, but there is this wonderful dignified position as in Christ Jesus. So that God has had you in mind to put you in this position.
A.J.G. Quite so, and in that position, as constituting His assembly in the place.
J.W.G. Would the reference to the assembly here and sanctified in Christ Jesus, show the importance of always stressing the elevated character of the saints, particularly perhaps in dealing with one another as to moral things?
A.J.G. That is the way the apostle introduces it. As we know there was much that was sorrowful in the assembly at Corinth and the apostle has in mind to deal with it, but yet in wonderful wisdom and skill he approaches them according to what they are in the divine mind, what they are abstractly, that they are the assembly of God in Corinth, and are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and saints by calling, and he brings that to bear upon them in order that it should be a lever with them to examine as to how far their practical conduct is in keeping with all this.
A.J.M. Is there a link with the thought of the blue in the tabernacle, is there a heavenly touch in connection with the references to Christ Jesus?
A.J.G. Yes, I think there would be.
E.C.L. Is the thought also that God has a representation of Himself in the city?
A.J.G. Quite so, that is what is in mind. The assembly of God in Christ Jesus is the divinely accredited representative of God, you might say, in the place.
R.M.B. I was thinking that he refers in chapter 6 to those sanctified.
A.J.B. He does. He says “And these things were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God”, v 11. That is, he brings in both sides, the objective side, what they are in Christ, in the name of the Lord Jesus, which brings in the renown attaching to His death, and all that He has done, and His present position, but then it says also, “and by the Spirit of our God”, which would mean our being brought into subjective correspondence with it by the Spirit.
G.R.C. Does not sanctification operate on similar moral principles as to what we have had before us already although it is a positive truth? I am thinking of the fact that we are sanctified through Christ’s death and the offering up of His body, and then the position brought in as to sanctified in Christ Jesus, and then the effective working out of it, we are sanctified in the Spirit.
A.J.G. Yes, so that 2 Thessalonians and 1 Peter speak of sanctification of the Spirit. But I think, “sanctified in Christ Jesus” keeps a kind of standard before our minds and hearts. It is not a sanctification of the first man, but it is a complete setting apart to God in another Man, in the heavenly Man.
A.A.L. Could you count upon this principle in every assembly, that there would be this in principle even though things might be a bit low?
A.J.G. Surely, there is no less than this in God’s mind, and it is in fact the position if we have believed in Christ and received the Spirit we are sanctified in Christ Jesus.
F.E.S. And the thought being linked with the assembly of God in Corinth, a city, would that involve that we are not just sanctified and set apart merely to a doctrinal position, but to a practical one where there are activities which furnish a flow of love and interest in one another.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I believe it is a great thing in our minds to begin with the thought of God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time, and then in due time the gospel reached us, and we believed in Christ through God’s grace, and received the Spirit, and that means that we were thereby linked with and established in Christ Jesus according to God’s purpose, and nothing less than that, and that is to shed its light on the whole position, whether in our individual life “alive to God in Christ Jesus” or our assembly life, “sanctified in Christ Jesus”, and Christ Jesus made everything to us.
J.W.C. We take all this truth on in our own spirits, do we?
A.J.G. Yes, the Spirit of God is able to make it good in us. I take it that He holds us in relation to Christ in our affections, and we begin to study Christ, so that we take character from Christ.
A.A.B. Does that have its beginning in the work of new birth?
A.J.G. Yes, it has its beginning there.
A.A.B. I was thinking of what you said earlier as to the subjective side of this matter of “in Christ Jesus”. There is something in the saints which answers practically to the great truth objectively.
A.J.G. That is true, and new birth is the beginning of it, the beginning of the Spirit’s operations, but you cannot exactly define or describe new birth, and you cannot get anything very substantial until there is the reception of the Spirit.
E.J.F. What bearing has verse 30 that we read, it says there, “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and holiness”, or sanctification “and redemption”. How does that compare with what you have said as to sanctification in verse 2?
A.J.G. I think it is to help us to keep the divine standard before us. Christ Jesus is made these things to us, and He becomes the measure of holiness or sanctification.
M.L.J.M. How do you link the thought of the fellowship of God’s Son with this matter of the calling?
A.J.G. Fellowship is in this connection perhaps a defensive idea, that is to say, in the typical books the tabernacle was constructed, God placing in their midst His dwelling in which He would be served, that was Exodus, and then Leviticus is instruction as to the service of God, and then in Numbers they are numbered with a view to maintaining and defending the position, and all set around the tabernacle, and you can see that in that position in their allotted places they were all committed to one interest, there was just the one fellowship there, and they all had part together in that commanding interest that they were set in their places to defend the tabernacle system, and that really is the position that Corinthians contemplates. One’s own position might be in the camp on the east and your position might be in the camp on the west and so on, but at the same time we are all committed to the defence of the same position, and I think in that sense it becomes a fellowship, and a fellowship of a very elevated character, “the fellowship of God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”.
E.C.L. So that if God is faithful we can count on that all through, can we not?
A.J.G. Yes, we can.
E.C.L. I was thinking too of the scripture we read last night, “if we are unfaithful, he abides faithful, for he cannot deny himself”. Is it on that ground that we are here today, because of how God has been faithful? He has maintained the thought of His assembly and what we can be for Him as we reach the position.
A.J.G. It seems to me that the abiding presence of the Spirit is one of the outstanding testimonies to the faithfulness of God. God Himself has come into the position in wonderful grace in the Spirit to see us right through and to maintain things according to the divine ideas.
M.C. Would that be why wisdom is the first mentioned of these four at the end of the first chapter, to designate the wonderful way that God has wrought for His own pleasure?
A.J.G. Yes, and that we ourselves are to derive wisdom from Christ, because Corinth boasted in wisdom of men and Paul has in mind to set all that aside. So that we do not rely upon human wisdom in assembly matters, Christ Jesus is made wisdom to us.
F.W.B. And does not Paul completely clear the ground when he says, “we preach Christ crucified”, is not the ground completely cleared in Christ crucified, which makes way for what is wholly spiritual.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
A.L.B. And all those things serving to bring to pass, in a practical way, what was in principle in mind in the thought of sanctified in Christ Jesus.
A.J.G. Yes.
A.A.L. Would you say in a way it is operational in a collective setting? Is it worked out together in Christ Jesus?
A.J.G. I think so, because “in Christ Jesus” involves the thought of power, that while on the one hand you apprehend the truth in Christ objectively, “in Christ Jesus” with the stress on ‘Jesus’ involves that that kind of man, the heavenly Man, is to come into expression, and that involves that there is a certain power, or certain energetic working by the “Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”, which brings about in the saints what corresponds with Himself, and so the wisdom there is in Him would come into operation. It is remarkable that when the queen of Sheba came to Solomon, she not only heard his wisdom, and put all her difficulties to him and got them all answered, but it says, she saw the wisdom of Solomon, and she saw it in the system that she saw operating, the house that he had built for himself, that would be the assembly for Christ, and the food on his table, and the deportment of his servants, and the order of service of his attendants and their apparel, and his cupbearers and their apparel, and then the ascent by which he went up to the house of Jehovah, she saw all that operating, and in it she saw the wisdom of Solomon.
F.E.S. So is this scripture at the end of the first chapter to help us arrive at the great thought that in Christ Jesus there is another order of Man altogether, and we would not bring forward anything that belonged to the old order.
A.J.G. Exactly, and not only another kind of Man altogether, but a supremely exalted order of Manhood, so that it says in Isaiah 55, “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts”, v 9. The exceeding greatness of God’s thoughts above our thoughts.
W.J.F. As we appreciate that do we learn a little as to what the last verse means as to boasting?
A.J.G. Exactly. God has in mind to secure that He fills the whole heart and mind of the creature, so that he who boasts is to boast in the Lord.
A.L.B. Does this thought of elevation stand over against the reference to this world—“the ignoble things of the world, and the despised, has God chosen”—we can face that in contrast to the dignity of God’s own thoughts.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
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