Reading 5—Monday afternoon
Daniel 9: 1-6; 18-27; 10: 1-5; 12: 8-13
A.J.G. I think it will be clear that loveableness is the great feature in these closing chapters of the book, Daniel is said to be “one greatly beloved” in chapter 9: 23 and again in chapter 10: 11, and again in verse 19 of the same chapter, and also through these chapters he is mentioned by name several times, just as God said to Moses, “I know thee by name”, after he had proved faithful in pitching a tent far off from the camp for those who sought the Lord, as though God would take special personal notice of those who prove themselves faithful and are sensitive as to what is due to Him. Where we commenced reading we read in verse 2, “I Daniel”, so that the personality of Daniel is particularly coming into view, indeed we had it earlier because we have at the end of chapter 7: “As for me, Daniel”, and then at the beginning of chapter 8, “even to me Daniel” and then verse 27 of chapter 8, “and I Daniel fainted”. And now here, “I Daniel understood”, as though what the man was is coming specially into evidence in the mind of the Spirit, and the understanding that Daniel had through making use of what God had made available, specially the prophecy of Jeremiah, but what is so striking is that at this point he discovers that the time of the desolations of Jerusalem was seventy years, and if we may place reliance on the chronological table at the beginning of our New Translation, this point was only two years before the completion of the seventy years, so that Daniel would have it brought home to him that the time for God to intervene in deliverance was near, and the effect it had upon him is worthy of notice, that he began in a particular way to take account of the moral state of God’s people, and the moral conditions necessary to justify an intervention on God’s part, even though God had committed Himself to it, nearly seventy years before. I believe that is one feature of loveableness, that he is not just resting in the fact that God had said that after seventy years He would visit them, but that he was concerned as to suitable moral conditions, and is identifying himself with the state of departure that had brought upon the people the captivity under which they were suffering.
W.S.S. He seems to have in mind in prayer the deliverance of the whole of the people.
A.J.G. Yes, I was just wondering whether as we get the sense that the coming of the Lord is near, whether the Lord would not look that some such exercises on our part should take place, because while we are enjoying the privilege of the recovery of the last one hundred and thirty years, and much in the way of truth and assembly privilege is opened up to us, yet we cannot dissociate ourselves from the state of the church as a whole, and the whole church is to be raptured, not a part of it, and the whole church is to come out with Christ; and it is just a question whether the Lord would not have us take up something of the spirit of Daniel as the time draws near.
W.S.S. I often think of this prayer of Daniel’s in the prayer meeting on Monday evenings.
A.J.G. Yes.
E C.T. So you would desire that persons might receive the Holy Spirit and be prepared for the rapture?
A.J.G. Quite so, and then the many who have already received the Holy Spirit, that He should be ungrieved and free in His operations amongst us, what a difference it would make with us all if that were so more.
A.H. Do you think, in coming to the Supper, this great matter of all the saints would be brought before us as we take account of the loaf?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure it would. I think it might well be an occasion of expression of some sorrow on our part as we are giving thanks for the loaf that so many of the saints are not available to have part in the remembrance of the Lord.
N.K.McL. So “we have sinned” would involve Daniel having all in his mind do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and then it says in verse 20, “whilst I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel”. He identifies himself with the people, calls them my people, as though he would take on the whole burden of people’s responsibility, but he confesses first his own sin.
A.L.R.T. Would this correspond to Jesus being baptised in the Jordan as the people were confessing their sins, and then He is referred to by the Father as His “beloved Son”. Would that correspond to this thought of loveability?
A.J.G. Yes, there is a certain correspondence. Of course that was unique, and the Lord had no sin of course, we need not say, to confess, but He would identify Himself with the repentant remnant at that time, and as you say, He is immediately greeted from heaven as peculiarly pleasing to the Father.
A.M.P. Is it not significant that Daniel 9 and the ninth chapter of Ezra, and the ninth chapter of Nehemiah are all long confession chapters?
A.J.G. Yes, it is remarkable.
A.M.P. As providing a balance to the thought of God’s pleasure in the recovery and the like?
A.J.G. I am sure we need to keep that balance, God would operate in His sovereignty in recovery, so that there should be some answer to His thoughts, but we are not to overlook the general state.
W.J.T. Would Daniel perusing the book of Jeremiah catch up these feelings? Chapter 31 says, “he that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him”. He had all Israel in mind, had he not?
A.J.G. Yes. Jeremiah is particularly a prophet of feeling and one who had to go through the discipline that fell upon the people, so that he was present when Jerusalem was taken.
H.P. You would be impressed at the Supper as to the thought of “where are the nine?” and also thankful for “all Judah and Israel that were present”, 2 Chron 35: 18. You would have the two thoughts in your mind?
A.J.G. Oh yes, one would not wish to give undue place to what was remarked, but one has often felt oneself, and I have no doubt others have, a certain feeling of sorrow that so many of the saints are not available to have part with us in the Supper.
F.C.H. Does not the captivity stand in a peculiar way in relation to the neglect of the Sabbath, which was especially for the pleasure of God which He desired His people to enjoy? I suppose that is our greatest test is it, as to whether we can enjoy what God has designed especially for His own pleasure.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
J.T.S. Is there something to be taken account of in the fact that Daniel speaks of the Lord as the great and terrible God, and Nehemiah in chapter 1 speaks similarly of the God of the heavens, the great and terrible God, but they both go on to speak of God as the God who keeps covenant and mercy for those who love Him and keep His commandments. Are we to have in our minds what is due to God and yet a sense of the blessedness and the grace in which He is towards us?
A.J.G. I think so. I think that helps very much on the line of balance, that we are never to lose the sense that our God is a consuming fire, a great and terrible God as you say, and yet loving mercy, and if He insists on His rights it is the right to show mercy: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”, He says. So that it is very helpful to keep those two sides in mind in balance.
F.A.W. Would Ezra 3 suggest the balance when the noise of the weeping and the shouting was mingled together, when they laid the foundations of the house?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.C.C. Would there be something distinctive in these personal links with God. Paul speaks of “my God”.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and the way that those who are sent to speak to him call him by name, Daniel, shows that he was known by God, he knew God and he was known by God.
W.M.B. He uses the name Jehovah throughout this chapter, the only chapter in the book, I think, clinging to the covenant name of God.
A.J.G. That is very beautiful.
E.R.S. Why is Gabriel called a man here?
A.J.G. His name means ‘mighty man of God’, so I understand, so angels are called men sometimes, I suppose, to emphasise that they are sympathetic with men.
G.R.C. Have you any thought as to why in this confession the title Lord is used so much in verses 7, 8, 9, and 15 and 19 as well as other places? I suppose it is Adonai. In the actual address to God it is “Lord God”, whereas in Nehemiah 9 they go back to Jehovah Elohim once they are back in the land.
A.J.G. I would like you to say something about that.
G.R.C. I do not think I can. I was only wondering whether we could get help as to the use of the word Adonai.
A.J.G. It would be an expression I suppose of real subjection, bringing in so much of the title “Lord”.
G.R.C. I wondered if it might be becoming in this initial confession which comes before Ezra’s and Nehemiah’s.
A.J.G. Yes.
A.W.G.T. Has not Adonai been said9 to be Lordship in blessing?
A.J.G. I do not know whether it is so, but if that is so, then that gives rather remarkable significance to this use of the expression.
J.S.E. Is Abraham the first one to use it?
A.J.G. As far as I recall that is so. I think it is well to bear in mind that while there is this confession and the acknowledgment of sin it is all in the light of the promise of blessing. God had promised that after the seventy years He would visit them again, and restore them, and Daniel has come to the sense that the time for that is near, so that there is the sense of blessing upon his spirit, but coupled with that, this remarkable humbling of himself, as though to recognise that God must have right conditions if the blessing is to be brought in.
N.K.McL. Would that be a mark of loveability?
A.J.G. I think it would.
N.K.McL. It is a feature that we need to covet greatly, loveability.
A.J.G. I am sure it is, I think it is very significant that while he is fully assured as to the turning of the captivity about to take place, because God has promised it, it should have this effect upon him of making him feel the great need perhaps, as never before, of really bottoming things before God in regard of himself and the people.
N.K.McL. This touches us each personally does it not?
A.J.G. It does indeed.
A.M.P. Is it not a feature that is brought into the local assembly in the first epistle to the Corinthians? “If any man love God he is known of Him”.
A.J.G. Yes, and the increasing emphasis in our day on the presence of the Holy Spirit all helps in relation to this matter. I believe the exercise as to having liberty to speak to the Spirit has brought it home to us much more, how near the Holy Spirit of God is to us, as having taken His abode in us, and all that tends to promote increased sensitiveness as to right conditions with God, and increased ability to go over the past, so to speak, both as regards oneself and as regards the saints.
A.H. Will you say something as to why it is at the time of the evening oblation that Gabriel flies swiftly to enlighten him.
A.J.G. The evening oblation brings Christ before God, I suppose, in His acceptability, although I suppose the oblation involved a certain correspondence on the part of those who offered it with Christ, that is the burnt offering is the pure presentation of Christ to God as I understand it, and I believe the oblation and the drink offering involve a certain moral correspondence with it on the part of the offerers.
A.H. Is it striking therefore, referring to the burnt offering, that in the first mention of it in Leviticus 1, the offerer himself leans with his hand upon the head of the offering, as if he is completely identified with Christ whom he is presenting to God?
A.J.G. Yes, and that the working out of it would result in something of the character of the oblation with him.
E.H. Would you say why initially he appeals to God’s righteousness, “according to all thy righteousness. I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away”. Later he expresses the need for mercy.
A.J.G. Well, we at any rate know God as righteous in mercy, that is the great gain of the light that now shines in the gospel, that Christ is set forth a mercy-seat, so that we see that God is righteous in dispensing mercy, I think it is a very great comfort to know that, that you can say to God reverently, that He has infinite rights to show mercy now on the ground of the death of Christ.
J.H. Would there be some gain in referring to Philadelphia? Would it be an encouragement to us to continue giving the Lord every right that is due to Him, not denying His Name, so that He might be justified, even in only a few in the light of the truth, to deliver the whole assembly?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. We have there the loveability of the assembly, they “shall know that I have loved thee”, and then the Lord’s word: “because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world to try them that dwell upon the earth”.
W.S.S. Daniel has God before him very much, and His people in verses 19 and 20: “thy people”, and “called by thy name”; “thy city”, and the “mountain of my God”. Would you be free to say a word about that?
A.J.G. It is remarkable how he, so to speak, throws it back on God, “defer not, for thine own sake, O my God, for thy city and thy people are called by thy name”.
W.S.S. Should not that aspect of things dominate our thoughts and our prayers: as we have God before us, we should have greater thoughts of the people of God, should we not?
A.J.G. I am sure we should. And then I think in drawing near to God in prayer we can have a sense that He is God and that He can bless and accomplish His thoughts whatever Satan does in opposition, and even whatever the state of the people, only that He will bring about in the saints the right condition so that blessing is justified.
F.P. Would he have in mind the prayer of Solomon at the dedication of the temple, and he prays for them in that way?
A.J.G. I think he would, yes.
F.P. Solomon contemplated that they would turn to Him in the land of their captivity to which they would be carried, and own their sin there, and Daniel was taking this up in his own soul.
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure that is so, and I have no doubt that is what is alluded to in chapter 6 where it says, “his windows being open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled on his knees three times a day”. Because he is really taking up the prayer of Solomon in that connection, that they would look toward God’s house, and that evidently is the spirit underlying this prayer.
W.J.T. In Jeremiah 29 from which he has been reading, it says in verse 12, “And ye shall call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you; and ye shall seek me and find me, for ye shall search for me with all your heart, and I will be found of you, saith Jehovah”. Daniel had really taken this to heart had he not?
A.J.G. Yes he had (see also Jeremiah 25).
J.S.E. Is the feature of intensification exhibited here as Daniel proceeds in his own history toward this point of the reign of Darius? Does each reign in relation to which he speaks bring out a measure of increased depth in his own soul?
A.J.G. I think it does, and it is remarkable that it is in the reign of Darius and then in the reign of Cyrus, that his loveability is so specially stressed.
J.S.E. I wondered if it was because of this intensification of feeling.
A.J.G. Yes I think it is.
N.K.McL. It is wonderful the way that heaven moves represented in “the man Gabriel whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning flying swiftly”. It is a marvellous thing to bring heaven into movement in connection with our confession, our feelings in relation to the public breakdown and our part in them.
A.J.G. Quite so, and then he had come forth to make him skilled of understanding, and then says, “for thou art one greatly beloved”, as though his loveableness and his acquisition of understanding are linked together.
E.R.S. Does it show too that Gabriel understands what God thought about Daniel? You were talking about the angels being sons of God in a certain setting and being intelligent as to the thought of God.
A.J.G. Yes, and they are sympathetic with God in what He is doing, and I suppose it is that that makes them sympathetic with men, because men are peculiarly in God’s mind for blessing.
W.C. There is a suggestion here of the seraphim is there not, flying swiftly, and touching him. I was thinking of Isaiah 6 how the prophet took his right place, “Woe unto me!” there was the expression of grace towards him, was there not, on God’s part—swiftly, too, one of the seraphim flew. Does that not encourage us to follow up this line so that we get confirmation and encouragement from God?
A.J.G. Quite so. I am sure it does. The sympathy of the seraphim in Isaiah 6 is very striking, how quickly one of them flies and touches Isaiah as soon as he had made his confession.
S.H. Does Gabriel touching Daniel suggest the pleasure of heaven in identifying himself with him, and then does the thought of talking suggest intimacy with one greatly beloved?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure.
W.S.S. Is it significant that the two great prophetic books, Daniel and the Revelation, were both given to men who were lovable?
A.J.G. That is very striking, there is no doubt that John is the New Testament counterpart of Daniel. He was one whom Jesus loved, and it is very remarkable, too, that as loved by him he gets such light given him as is recorded in the book of Revelation, so different from his epistle and his gospel, showing that there is to be no specialising in divine things, but that one who is lovable is made capable of entering into every feature of the truth. The book of Revelation is distinctively different from John’s epistle and gospel.
W.S.S. We might perhaps think that the study of prophecy requires some special intellectual ability, but the indication seems to be that it requires loveability, does it not?
A.J.G. I think so, yes.
K.S. It says, “for thou art one greatly beloved”.
A.J.G. That is important, the understanding is given him consequent upon, or on account of, his loveableness, and his loveableness is shown in his depth of feeling before God in regard of his own state and the state of His people.
F.C.H. Humility is an essential feature in loveability is it, would you say?
A.J.G. I do not see how we can have to do with God without it, for He knows the proud afar off.
A.C. Do you think that Mr Darby very much faced these exercises in the departure of the church in 1830 or thereabouts, and hence he was used of God so much in the recovery of things, as he was?
A.J.G. Yes I do. His early writings show how much he felt things, but then now as we are drawing near to the time, the point is whether we are going to be marked by these features.
J.T.S. Would we link what you have been stressing as to loving His appearing with this thought of loveability?
A.J.G. Yes, I think we can, only do you not think that loving His appearing really has a moral effect upon us, that if I really love His appearing I will not be going on with what will have to be set aside at His appearing.
J.T.S. I was thinking of the loving His appearing as considering for the One we love, coming into His rights here, and if that is the case would not that render us lovable. We would be in accord, as you say, with what He is bringing in. “The Lord, the righteous Judge”, he says, “will render to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all who love his appearing”. I was wondering if it were a matter of the love of righteousness, what marked the Lord Himself so perfectly.
A.J.G. I am sure it is, the love of righteousness, and the love of the thought of the Lord coming into His rights would raise the question with us as to whether He has His rights with us practically now, so that while we all in a sense would respond to the thought of the Lord getting His rights publicly.
W.H.T. Could you say what is involved in becoming in Spirit so that we have understanding and we have the feelings rightly that go with this?
A.J.G. Well, all that I can say is that the Spirit of God has been pleased to take His abode in us, so that He is very close at hand, and available, and think it is really a question of an attitude of mind with us, as to whether we desire that the Spirit should have control of our minds and spirits. If we present, so to speak, that attitude of mind to Him, I think He will answer it, and take control, especially as we come together.
G.R.C. So that then we are moving in the current of His thoughts and feelings, and John was like that in the whole matter of the Revelation, I suppose, receiving the communications there.
A.J.G. He says “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, chapter 1, and then in chapter 4 he heard a voice saying “come up here”, and it says, “immediately I became in the Spirit”, as though he had the power to do that at any time, and then in chapter 21 it says that “he carried me away in the Spirit and set me on a great and high mountain”; John was evidently peculiarly available to the Spirit.
W.S.S. Is there not something which seems to be analogous to that in chapter 10 verses 17, 18 and 19? Daniel had no strength in himself—nothing in ourselves—but then he was strengthened: “Let my Lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me”, so that it is communicated, is it not?
A.J.G. Quite so,
J.S.E. Are not these three prepositions in Revelation all to do with power? I thought it just emphasised to us that the power of the Spirit was easily available to us, it is a question of the condition with us as to taking advantage of it.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
F.A.W. Verse 23 says, “at the beginning thy supplications”, as though the very first move that he made was noted in heaven, it says, “for thou art one greatly beloved”.
A.J.G, That is very encouraging, in the next chapter we find something similar, and that there is a certain opposition, so that Daniel did not know till three weeks afterwards that his prayer had been taken account of.
J.S.E. I cannot help feeling that all that is coming up in these readings is peculiarly emphatic of what we speak of as the dominical position. There is very little said in the book about the actual service of God, is there? but a remarkable thing is that when the captivity ends, the next move is the resumption of God’s service.
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.S.E. Does it not throw into relief a peculiar necessity with us in relation to the matter of the rights of Christ, and all that is connected with the world to come in that connection, and the need to carry that every day in our feelings and in our minds, that we are not here in relation to ordinary matters, but we are left here to bear some mark that we are here in relation to the rights of the Man who has been cut off and had nothing.
A.J.G. Quite so, and He on His part was always considering for the rights of God.
J.S.E. Yes.
-.P. Would Daniel be in line with that, in his prayer? I am thinking, it says, “for thine own sake, O my God!”, and then “for thy city and thy people are called by thy name”.
A.J.G. Quite so, it is for God’s own sake, but then He has been pleased to connect His name with His city and His people. For us that is the assembly and the saints of the assembly, and be for their sake, because His name is connected with them, we can pray.
-.P. Would it be in the testimonial position? A.J.G. Yes, it would. N.K.McL. Does loveability involve spiritual personality linking up with what you started with “I Daniel”?
A.J.G. Yes, and not only that Daniel is conscious of his own personality, but that God knows him and calls him by name, or God’s messengers, the angels, do.
W.G.L. Do verses 25 to 27 show that we get further light as we need it as to the testimony?
A.J.G. I think so. There was first of all the light that Daniel acquired by books that the time of the captivity was just about to come to an end, but then as the result of his humbling himself, he gets this light as to “Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people”, and then there are the seven weeks and the sixty two weeks, and after the sixty two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. So that the position is made perfectly clear, that there is only one more week to be fulfilled, or as some think, only half a week, but at any rate, only one more week to be fulfilled in the prophetic calendar, but of course, the prophetic calendar is not resumed as far as we can see while the assembly is here.
G.R.C. Do you think one important feature of loveability is that Daniel had set his heart to understand? Does God appreciate that with us? “From the first day that thou didst set thy heart to understand” (chap 10: 12), and then in chapter 9, “consider the word, and have understanding”. “Consider what I say”, Paul says.
A.J.G. I think that is important, and I think the fact that Daniel had considered it is shown by the fact that in chapter 10 in the third year of Cyrus, although by that time the recovery had begun, and those who had availed themselves of Cyrus’s proclamation had moved up to Jerusalem, yet Daniel is still found mourning, “in the third year of Cyrus King of Persia … In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks”. That is he has, I suppose, the full light of chapter 9 before him, and all that is still going to befall the people, that the end is not just imminent so that he is feeling things in that way.
W.S.S. It may be he felt that so few out of so many had gone up to Jerusalem.
A.J.G. Quite so, but then the point is, do you think, whether we just enjoy our own privileges as those who through grace have part in the recovery, and forget the saints as a whole, but Daniel was still mourning although the recovery had commenced.
W.S.S. I would go most heartily with that, I have felt it as an exercise for long, that we do not carry sufficiently in our thoughts and affections the whole body of the people of God.
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.S.E. Is that why the preface of the Epistle to the Ephesians is “to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus”, and at the end of the epistle there is an allusion to supplication for all the saints. The word “supplication” has a negative element in it, has it not? It has the feature of resentment in it of untoward conditions.
A.J.G. I was not aware of that, but it evidently implies great earnestness. I believe prayer is the general thought of intelligently asking; and supplication conveys the thought of intense earnestness in regard to it, and as you say, perhaps the thought of resentment as to anything that is opposed to it, and then intercession is that we are employing our nearness to God of behalf of those who are not near to Him.
E.R.S. So the word here is at the beginning of thy supplications, the word went forth.
A.J.G. Yes.
F.C.H. Have you any thought as to why Daniel remained and did not go up with those who returned?
A.J.G. It may be that he is intended by God to represent this feature of those that feel things and carry them in their heart right through to the end.
W.C.P. Is it touching that in spite of the people’s condition in captivity, Daniel clings to the idea of a holy mountain? Twice he uses the expression, and then when the answer is given to him reference is made to the holy city, to the holy of holies.
A.J.G. That is very interesting, it reminds you of the song in Exodus 15: “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, The place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, The Sanctuary, Lord”. That is a holy mountain is it not, “The Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared”?
W.C.P. The sanctuary is referred to here.
A.J.G. Yes.
W.H.K. What are we to learn from the combat that is connected with Daniel’s prayer? The prince of Persia withstanding this message and then Michael coming to help him and so on?
A.J.G, I suppose we are to understand that there is combat going on, that is, that Satan has his angels, his agents, to try and oppose anything that God is doing, and that is why perseverance in prayer is called for, and Paul speaks of his combat, and the combat of Epaphras, so that these things are not to be taken lightly, just glibly saying certain things, but there is to be feeling and persistence, do you not think, with us?
A.W.G.T. Is this feature of loveability carried forward into our dispensation in the word that the Lord addresses to the overcomer in Philadelphia in Revelation 3, the word is “He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name”?
A.J.G. I have no doubt that the overcomer in Philadelphia does present features of great loveability because the Lord promises to him really the recovery of the truth, you might say, in its greatest elements.
A.H. The Lord saying of John, “If I will that he tarry till I come”. Is he indicating there that this feature of loveableness will go right through to the end?
A.J.G. I think so. John was the disciple that Jesus loved, and therefore represents that feature peculiarly, but he stands in contrast with Daniel in that while Daniel is left with the feeling that there is a long while to run before things are accomplished, and he is to go his way, John is made to feel that the time is near. The Lord says, “I come quickly”. So while Daniel’s prophecy has to be sealed, John is told at the end of Revelation not to seal the words of his prophecy.
W.J.T. Would the fact that the brethren ardently kissed Paul be an indication that he was loved of God and the brethren recognised loveability in him, Acts 20?
A.J.G. Yes, I suppose so, there would also be mutual affections between Paul and the brethren.
A.H. Would you think that as this feature is really developed with us it will give us great liberty with divine Persons? I was thinking of John 13, he is the only one there that seems to have liberty with the Lord.
A.J.G. Quite so. Then on the other hand, in Daniel 10 that we have before us here, although Daniel was loveable, when he sees this vision, the men who are with him flee to hide themselves and he is left alone, and there remains no strength in him, and his comeliness was turned into corruption and so on, that is in acknowledging his sin and the sin of the people, he is made to feel what a real thing it is to have to do with the Lord about these things.
A.H. That is very much like John, is it not?
A.J.G. Very much like John in the first chapter of Revelation.
W.S.S. And is that not what we very much need in matters of exercise which arise among us, that everyone of us should feel what comes in?
A.J.G. I am sure of that, I think probably we all feel our tendency to be superficial, and perhaps these readings may help us a little more on the line of deeper feeling.
A.M. Is there something of the jealousy of the Lord represented in this man here. I was thinking of the combination of pure gold with brass.
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is good, that is what he has to face, the jealousy of God in regard of the state of things marking God’s people.
B.S. Could we have a word on the other river here, the great river Hiddekel?
A.J.G. It is for us, I suppose, some pointer to the Spirit, but what have you in mind?
B.S. You mentioned about the presence of the Spirit in regard of the other river that we had this morning, and I wondered if the power of the Spirit in greater measure was stressed here after his mourning and the state that he was in.
A.J.G. That may well be, but I think this matter of jealousy is important, because it seems to me that that underlies the address to Philadelphia in that the Lord says to the overcomer, “my God”. Not simply “God”, but “my God”, as though the Lord is speaking feelingly of God as His God, and all that was due to His God, and no doubt the overcomer in Philadelphia is one who is fully in line with Christ in regard of such things.
B.S. Paul speaks of jealousy in 2 Corinthians, does he not?
A.J.G. Yes, “I am jealous over you with a jealousy which is of God”.
C.W.O’L.M. Would you say a word about clothed in linen which is spoken of the man more than once?
A.J.G. It is usually regarded as a priestly garment is it not, that is it is a reference, is it not, to holiness really?
C.W.O’L.M. Does that not fit in with the idea of jealousy?
A.J.G. It does.
J.A.P. I suppose Daniel would have an understanding of the long time there was to be before the Messiah would have His place, He was to be cut off, and that would affect him.
A.J.G. That is what I thought. He was not limited in his outlook to the immediate recovery which in chapter 10 had begun, but he has the view right through to the end, and that only emphasises the need of continuance which we started with, of course Daniel could not know that there was going to be this long period of the day of the Spirit intervening before the final week was completed.
J.S.E. Does that give the answer to the enquiry about the great river? I thought in chapter 9 this precious allusion to the Messiah being cut off and having nothing gives room for expansion and enlargement in our view, so that in the next chapter he refers to this great river, as though he was in a position now for a still more enlarged view of matters from the standpoint of the mind of God.
A.J.G. That is very interesting and possibly an allusion to the day of the Spirit, when such great things are to be brought in.
W.M.B. Hiddekel is mentioned in Genesis as flowing out of Eden, connecting with God’s greatest thoughts, perhaps, do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so, I was just looking at that, it is the third of the four heads of the river.
J.S.E. And does it not flow toward Asshur?
W.M.B. Yes, it does.
A.J.G. What do you see in that?
J.S.E. Well, does not this enlarged view of matters help us to really go further back than just the four monarchies that are dispensed with, God goes right back and deals with things from the root to their finish, and the whole issue is that this glorious Person spoken of as the Messiah, while He is cut off and has nothing, He returns and has everything. Everything comes to Him.
A.J.G. Quite so, and that in the interlude, the day of the Spirit, between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth week, the greatest things come in, so that John 1 says, “the Messias (which being interpreted is Christ)”. As though in Christianity things become much greater, and the idea of the Messiah now takes on the thought of the Christ, which is a very full thought according to Ephesians.
W.S.S. It is rather wonderful the way the Spirit’s period is suggested, and then the beginning of chapter 12 takes up Israel again, or as they are spoken of as “thy people”, to Daniel.
-.P. Is the feature of loveableness open to us all?
A.J.G. Yes, it surely is, loveableness is not a question of sovereignty or gift, it is a question of our cultivating what is pleasing to God.
-.W. In the third verse of chapter 10, you get Daniel fasting; would you say a word as to fasting in relation to prayer.
A.J.G. It has been said that fasting shuts man out and prayer brings God in. Fasting is the denial of what is legitimate and tends to reduce any self-confidence or any resources that we might tend to rely upon, and therefore makes greater room for God.
-.W. You do not think it means literal fasting?
A.J.G. I would not shut that out, but I notice here it says, “I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine into my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three full weeks were fulfilled”. That does not mean that he did not eat any food at all, but that he was denying himself anything that was beyond what was essential.
-,W. “Pleasant” meat might refer to anything that appeals to us naturally.
A.J.G. Yes, and that you might have a right to, from a legitimate point of view, but he says, “I ate no pleasant bread”, in order to show the genuineness of his mourning.
N.K.McL. “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient”. Would that fit in?
A.J.G. Yes.
J.S.E. In the teaching he would still be going on with the pulse, would he not?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and so we find that in chapter 10, although he is so deeply affected by the vision that he sees, he is addressed as “O Daniel, man greatly beloved” in verse 11, and then again in verse 19, “Fear not, man greatly beloved; peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong”.
N.K.McL. Does fasting make way for divine power to come in?
A.J.G. Yes it does, because it tends to reduce any natural powers that we might rely upon.
E.A.E. The Spirit’s voice is heard in days of prayer and fasting in Acts 13.
A.J.G. That is very significant, they were ministering to the Lord and fasting; does it not say of Anna that she served with fastings and prayers night and day?
W.S.S. I was just wondering about the last verses that we read. Have you a word for us about that?
A.J.G. Well, what is noticeable is that Daniel is addressed by name again. He says, “I heard, but I understood not. And I said, My Lord, what shall be the end of these things?” Daniel was concerned about the end, and he said, “Go thy way, Daniel; for these words are closed and sealed till the time of the end”, so that he is less favoured than we are, he is not allowed to see the full light right up to the end. The words are sealed so that he has not full understanding. But now in Revelation it says, “Seal not the words of the book of this prophecy. The time is near”. Hence it is for us to be particularly concerned as to understanding.
J.S.E. A special blessing for those who read and understand?
A.J.G. Yes, but then again the moral element comes in, many shall be purified and be made white and be refined, that is a striking word, that there is not only to be the purification, but there is to be the refining going on.
G.R.C. Is not that word encouraging about refinement, because the communications that lead up to this deal with the king of the north, and the king of the south, the operations of those two parts of the Grecian empire which are really God’s hand in discipline over the people, but there is this great end secured, and that would encourage us if disciplinary experiences come in today at the hands of government, would it not?
A.J.G. I think so. I think it is a good thing to keep in mind that refinement is in view, and I believe that is specially to be connected in our minds with the thought of the bride, because the bride is not simply a question of affection, it is a question of appearing at her very best, adorned, and that suggests spiritual refinement of the finest quality.
F.N.W. Revelation 22 speaks of the time is near, “let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still”. That would carry a similar thought, would it not?
A.J.G. Yes, that we are to go on, there is a certain judicial fixedness perhaps taking place at the present time, that those who do wickedly are doing wickedly still, but if we are among those who are practising righteousness, or are being sanctified, let us see that we do not give up now, we are so near the end, let us continue to the end.
A.H. Do you think that that would indicate to us that we have now arrived at a period when God is really fixing things?
A.J.G. Yes, I do, and yet at the same time it is not absolute, in that after having said that, it says, “Blessed are they that wash their robes”, as though there may be an opening for one who is not doing righteousness to commence doing it.
G.R.C. Do you think that the purifying would deal with what is inward, the motives, and so on, and the making white, with our habits and ways, and then the refinement, the adorning, the spiritual virtues?
A.J.G. That is suggestive, quite so.
N.K.McL. I wondered whether it would help to link with what is said about the Lamb’s wife “It was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure”. Would that be the refinement, the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints?
A.J.G. I think it would.
A.C. Why the expression “Go thy way” twice in verses 9 and 11?
A.J.G. I suppose it is just to let Daniel know that he has got to wait, things are not going to happen immediately. In that way there is a contrast between this passage and the end of Revelation because the end of Revelation is that things are to happen immediately, they are not to be sealed because the time is at hand.
N.K.McL. Would it involve that the last view we see of him is that he is marked by this principle of continuance? “Go thy way”.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.M. Is wisdom a feature of the affections, developed affections, peculiarly needed in the last day?
A.J.G. You are referring now to the end of verse 10: “the wise shall understand”?
H.P. Is there any difference between “go thy way” and “follow thou me”? What I have in mind is the end of John’s gospel, Peter is told in relation to the loveable man, “if I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me”. Is it a similar idea or are they different?
A.J.G. John was already doing it, was he not? Peter turned and saw him following, he was already doing it; I think there is more definiteness when we come to Christianity, “Follow thou me”. That makes things very definite. Daniel is just told to go his way and “thou shalt rest and stand in thy lot at the end of the days”.
W.G.L. What about the blessing of verse 12 and the extra forty-five days?
A.J.G. I do not know that I can say anything as to what these one thousand, two hundred, and ninety days and one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days mean, but it just emphasises the need of continuance, and of continuance day by day, that the days are numbered.
L.W.T. Does the last verse contain the assurance of the place Daniel has had as loved by God will remain and abide right through?
A.J.G. I think it does. I think that is important, that this matter of the days is important because we are to continue day by day, but in the sense that the days are numbered; they are all numbered, there is nothing left indefinite. Whatever these numbers may mean they are fixed numbers, that is to show that so far as the Father is concerned at any rate the time is well known, as to when the end shall come.
W.S.S. Would you link the thought of blessing with the thought of continuance?
A.J.G. Yes, I would.
N.K.McL. What is the lot here, “thy lot”? What would that involve?
A.J.G. Oh, what was due to Daniel, I take it, what Daniel will have.
E.R.S. Will that be in the world to come then?
A.J.G. Yes, surely.
L.W.T. The place that Moses and Elias had on the mount is an indication, do you think, of the place that they continue to have in our affections?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. In fact, all those who are fallen asleep of the previous dispensations as well as this dispensation live to God. I think it is well to bear that in mind, that while we cannot say much about them, they all live to God; there is a living system. I do not say that they are active in any way, but at the same time they all live to God, that is what the Lord said.
L.W.T. And after the time of service is ended the loveability goes through?
A.J.G. Yes.
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