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Reading 5—Monday afternoon

A.J.G. I think these scriptures will enable us to complete the matter of the antitypical bearing of Joseph’s dealings with his brethren, on the one hand, and with Jacob, on the other hand. The scriptures that we have been reading these days, of course, are intended to have their application to us now as of the assembly. All the scriptures, I believe, in one way or another, whatever their dispensational bearing, have a voice to those who form the assembly. And so we find here that Joseph takes certain of his brethren, and, sets them, it says, before Pharaoh. Then later we have that he took Jacob, and set him before Pharaoh. It is a remarkable thing that Pharaoh is recorded as only saying one thing to Joseph’s brethren,—that is, “What is your occupation?” (Gen 47: 3)—and only saying one thing to Jacob—that is, “How many are the days of the years of thy life?”, Gen 47: 8. I wondered whether we might get an impression that, as now adjusted under the hand of Christ, He would set us before God, and God would raise the question with us as to what our occupation is. It brought out the answer, “Thy servants are shepherds”; that is, that we are caring for the saints, and prepared to lay down our lives for them, for shepherding is a most self-sacrificing matter. And that is what God is looking for—the development of love in our localities. He has wisely apportioned us the localities in which we are to learn and be formed, and having determined the brethren amongst whom we are to work out the truth in our localities. So that this question, “What is your occupation?” is a very potent one, and it would seem sufficient for the purpose for it brought out that they were shepherds. Shepherds were an abomination to the Egyptians, we read; it is the kind of thing that the world does not think much of, but it is something that is of great value in the sight of God. And if, in the Lord’s grace, we are adjusted as to moral conditions, and are in any sense moving together, as it says in Colossians, “united together in love” (Col 2: 2), that is to continue and to increase. The occupation that God would desire to see with us is that of shepherding, because it is a question of formation in love. The city is to come down out of heaven “from God, having the glory of God” (Rev 21: 10)—having it substantially—and the glory of God is what God is in His nature in wondrous expression, not in an abstract way, but in an actual administrative way. The number twelve, as we know, speaking of administration, is a prominent feature in the measurements of the city in Revelation 21; and all that the city will be in that day, as the expression of the glory of God, is being developed now in our relations with one another, especially in the local settings in which God has placed us.

A.H. Do you think that the selective wisdom of the Lord is seen in taking those five from the whole number of the brethren?

A.J.G. We know that the Lord frequently did take three of the twelve—Peter, James and John—giving them special privileges, and on one occasion we find four together—Peter, James, John, and Andrew. No doubt there is a certain wisdom and design in selecting certain ones. I do not know that one can say much about that, save that it is a matter for the Lord. Here Joseph takes five. What are you thinking about it?

A.H. In view of the way you have been presenting things in those meetings, I was wondering whether we might be right in thinking of these ones who are selected as really representative of the whole. “He took from the whole number of his brethren”, Gen 47: 2. I wondered whether, through the discipline, and care—we might say shepherd care—of Joseph for his brethren, those features had now been developed amongst all the brethren.

A.J.G. I think that is probably what is in mind. Why there were five, I cannot say, but there is little doubt that, in taking five, Joseph would take the best, but the best as representing all the brethren, as you say.

A.T.G. Would the idea of “all of one” enter into it? The note says that he took them ‘from the end’.

A.J.G. ‘From the end’ shows that it is the whole company that are in mind, and the five are selected from them. You were thinking it might refer to “all of one”?

A.T.G. I wondered if coming ‘from the end’ would suggest that he did not select here and there but they were all of one kind.

A.J.G. I think that would probably be right. The literal meaning ‘from the end’ evidently is to convey that he did not overlook any; he made his selection from all of them, and no doubt the thought is that they were representative of them all, though no doubt also the best of them. There is no doubt whatever, I think, that they would be representative of them all, and, from that standpoint, it seems to me of great importance to us, and challenging, too, that this is the one remark that Pharaoh is recorded as making to Joseph’s brethren; “What is your occupation?”

A.C.S.P. In that regard, is it important that persons who have been adjusted and recovered are not put on a permanently retired list? God has in view that they should be serviceable.

A.J.G. Yes, undoubtedly. I believe it is very important to realise that our local settings are arranged by the Lord—designed by God. It says that He makes “all things work together for good” (Rom 8: 28)—not just over-rules them, but makes them work together for good—as though He is the great designer and orderer of every detail, having in view the end that He has in His purpose.

A.C.S.P. So does this bear on the working of the members of the body, which sub-serve the great thought of Christ’s body as a whole?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure, and there is nothing so important as love in the practical expression of it, not as an abstract conception, but as a thing that works out practically. And that is the idea of twelve that is so prominent in Revelation 21.

C.J.H.D. There are five men signalised in Acts 13, at the beginning, and again two of those—the first and the last mentioned—are taken by the Spirit.

A.J.G. That is interesting. Would you enlarge on that a little?

C.J.H.D. I was only going back to what was said earlier in the meetings, I think, as to “ministering to the Lord and fasting”, Acts 13: 2. What representation of manhood in the number five those men at Antioch would give us, and yet two were taken, without any trace of jealousy on the part of the other three.

A.J.G. Quite so.

D.S.H. As to shepherding, which you mentioned, are you thinking of it on the line of shepherding the assembly of God?

A.J.G. Yes, in that passage in Acts 20 Paul speaks in a two-fold way. He says, “Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God”, v 28. The assembly of God, of course, is the same there as the flock. The flock views the saints as moving together, and needing care and shepherding; but then, where the responsibility to shepherding is laid upon the elders, the apostle invests the saints with great dignity, by calling them “the assembly of God”, in order to provide an incentive for the elders to lay down their lives for the saints, in the light of how great they are in the mind of God.

D.S.H. Does that compensate for the way they are despised in the world?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly.

J.McM. Is it your thought that this question of “What is your occupation?” is to bring out that we are here solely for the interests of Christ? Our employments, and so forth, under the hand of God, would be incidental to that, would they?

A.J.G. I am sure that is right, and a very important matter. Time is so short that we cannot afford to waste it, and we have to see that the prime interest of God is the assembly, and formation is going on in view of the coming out of the city, and every one of us has been given grace—there is a measure of ability given to each—to fill a part in relation to it, and hence this question is extremely important and challenging. “What is your occupation?” In other words, How do you spend your time?

W.A.R. Would the suggestion of five involve that the brethren were dependent upon God? I wondered whether that feature does not enter into our occupations. Our brother referred to what should come first with us. Would not dependence upon God involve that we rely upon Him for the rest?

A.J.G. Yes, it would.

W.J.S. What a shepherd Paul was in Acts 20! He puts the two thoughts together, does he not? “shepherd the assembly of God”. What a shepherd he was!

A.J.G. Yes, he was a shepherd, indeed. It is a most remarkable address of his to the elders of Ephesus, at Miletus, going over the whole scope of his ministry, and the sequential and constructive character of it, but then showing that it had been accompanied by personal devoted service on his part, night, and day, and even saying “these hands have ministered to my wants, and to those who were with me”, Acts 20: 34. So that he left them an example.

G.P. Peter says, “shepherd the flock of God which is among you” (1 Pet 5: 2), and the note to that says, ‘It is not simply an exhortation to do it, but to acquire that character by doing it’.

A.J.G. Yes. ‘Be shepherders of the flock’. Quite so.

W.B.H. And would “occupation” involve what is constant?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

F.J.D. Would you be free to say at this juncture why in Ephesians 4 shepherds are linked with teachers?

A.J.G. I think to preserve the spiritual character of the activities of the shepherd. So that it is not to be just on social lines, and being nice with people, and so on, but the shepherding is in view of the saints being built up, according to the mind of God, and therefore the teaching is to come in as well.

A.C.S.P. Does the fact that Joseph is first mentioned as tending the flock with his brethren at the age of seventeen show that we must not relegate this just to the older brethren?

A.J.G. I am sure it does. The young brothers and sisters could well begin to take it up, in simplicity and lowliness, and visit the sick, and others, and so on. It all enters into shepherding.

A.C.S.P. Does it, as you were saying, really involve much the promotion of love among the local brethren?

A.J.G. Exactly. And the development of it in ourselves, too, in the shepherds

F.W.K. Would that be seen in Timothy as a young brother? He was genuinely concerned how the saints got on. Does that express shepherd care?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. I think if we keep the idea of the city before us, as it comes out in Revelation 21, “having the glory of God”, and realising that that is what God is working to, and that the great idea in the city is that God Himself is expressed in it, in His nature, I think it will be a help to us in our exercises.

R.S.W. Would it make room for what is distinctive in each locality? I was thinking of the gates, and the names of the sons of Israel on different gates. I was thinking, too, of the reference to “the village of Mary and Martha” (John 11: l), and that that was distinguished by what Mary did.

A.J.G. I think that is right. On the other hand, we have to bear in mind that “each one of the gates, respectively, was of one pearl”, Rev 21: 2l. So that, while there is distinctiveness, on the one hand, there is the beauty of the assembly, as entirely for Christ, marking each gate, on the other hand.

J.McM. Would the reference to David, in Psalm 78, bear on this? In verse 69 it says of Jehovah, “he built his sanctuary like the heights”, that would link with your thought as to the city, would it? And then it says (v 70), “he chose David his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: From following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance. And he fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands”. That would fit in with what you are saying as to the spiritual character of this service, would it?

A.J.G. It would, indeed. That is a most encouraging scripture, as showing how, taking it up in its small beginnings, David had fed his father’s flock, unseen by any, probably, but just one or two, and how it led to a great end, and to promotion for him.

C.J.B.S. Is it of interest that our occupations are referred to in Colossians? In Colossians 3 the place that the bondman has in serving his master is referred to, and in Colossians 4 the place which the masters have, and the way that they treat their bondmen, is referred to. Would it help in the working out of assembly exercises, that we gain from our employment?

A.J.G. It is very interesting that the two epistles, Colossians and Ephesians, which deal with the heavenly calling of the saints particularly, come down to such practical matters as our occupation, showing that that is to be taken up in the light of what we are as heavenly; and, at the same time, as you say, the exercises taken up with God in those occupations will no doubt tend to the promotion of what is spiritual.

E.S. Is it of interest that in the last chapter of Colossians Paul refers to certain people who were “fellow-workers for the kingdom of God who have been a consolation to me”, Col 4: 11? It is as if he is speaking of their every-day life contributing to this matter of being “fellow-workers for the kingdom of God”.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

G.H.M. Is it right to connect the matter of gain for the testimony with our occupations? Would you not expect increase in lives that were laid down for the testimony, and for the good of the saints?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. And while we have in mind that the assembly, and God’s interests, are to command us, and everything else is to be subservient to those interests, yet we must bear in mind that there must be no negligence in our occupations, for in them we have to learn the principle of faithfulness.

A.H. Is that covered by the statement that Pharaoh makes, in verse 6, as to “men of activity”?

A.J.G. Yes, that is very good, “if thou knowest men of activity among them, then set them as overseers of cattle over what I have”.

J.McM. The footnote says, ‘men of worth’.

A.J.G. Yes—‘men of worth’ or ‘valour’.

W.B.H. In the epistle to the Colossians, the brethren are addressed as “the holy and faithful brethren in Christ which are in Colosse”, Col 1: 2.

A.J.G. That is interesting, that they are addressed, not only as holy, but as faithful. While we are stressing, and rightly stressing, that all that we are and have are to be held in relation to Christ, and His interests in the assembly, it is very important that there should be no negligence in our ordinary responsibilities in business, or our occupation, or whatever it may be. It only weakens us spiritually if there is, and brings in a blemish on the testimony.

P.B.D. Are we not often challenged as to the little things? The Lord says, “He that is faithful in the least is faithful also in much”, Luke 16: 10.

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. That is particularly exemplified in David’s own history, to which we have just referred.

J.McM. This is very important. If we are unable to link, with the associations of men, in the final days of the testimony, what may enable us to find a way to provide what is righteous, may be our moral worth, as filling out our daily tasks.

A.J.G. That is just it. I think there is a lot in that.

S.E.W. Why does this all take place with a background of famine in the land? Would that help us to draw on the resources of God?

A.J.G. Yes, it would.

R.M.Y. Is your thought that it was a great triumph for Joseph to see his brethren, who had been anything but shepherdly in character, now being able to say quite simply to Pharaoh that they were shepherds?

A.J.G. That is very interesting, and there is no doubt that they were.

A.H.A. Does it so commend itself to Pharaoh, that he says, “in the best of the land ... let them dwell”, Gen 47: 6?

A.J.G. Yes. Then we have Jacob also brought before Pharaoh, and he is in great moral power, and blesses Pharaoh—blesses him twice—and goes out from him. Verse 10 says, “And Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and went out from Pharaoh”. That is, he is not dismissed by Pharaoh, but he moves in his own dignity, as manifestly greater than Pharaoh, for “the inferior is blessed by the better” (Heb 7: 7), we are told. So that the full result is seen in Jacob now, from now onwards to the end of his life, the full result of his having moved out, and left his natural moorings, and embraced what is spiritual. And now Pharaoh says to him, “How many are the days of the years of thy life?”, Gen 47: 8. I suppose our days refer to experience with God, and, it may be, God would raise the question with us as to how many days we can take account of, in that way, as having yielded some substance in experience with God.

A.B. Would it be a feature of his lowliness that he speaks as he does, referring to the days of the years of his life as being few and evil? He is a great man spiritually in that he is able to bless, but very lowly as he speaks of his life.

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. But it is striking how this little paragraph repeats the thought of ‘days’. “How many are the days of the years of thy life”? Pharaoh says, and then Jacob says, “The days of the years of my sojourning”, and “Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and they do not attain to the days of the years of the life of my fathers, in the days of their sojourning”, Gen 47: 8-10. Great emphasis is laid on the thought of days, and the value of each day.

A.A.G. Is there the suggestion that, if the saints are set for what is spiritual, and formed in it, they will become a source even of blessing and benefit it may be to the powers that be?

A.J.G. Yes, I think there is that in it as well, undoubtedly.

W.McK. Is there some kind of suggestion of the judgment seat of Christ, and the great review of the days of the years of our life?

A.J.G. That is very interesting, and sobering, too, that there is a time of review before each one of us, “that each may receive the things done in the body”, 2 Cor 5: 10. But I thought perhaps the idea of “the days of the years” is a question of what wealth has been acquired in experience with God.

E.A.K. Had Jacob learnt to number his days, and so to acquire a wise heart, Ps 90: 12?

A.J.G. I think he had. He has had to come to it through discipline. I expect he would say, if you were able to ask him, that he felt that the first twenty years after he left his father had been largely wasted, from one point of view, although no doubt he had acquired a certain knowledge of God even then, but they had been spent in very much occupation with his own interests. But later on, he is a man with great experience with God, and formed by it, so that he comes out like God, even perhaps more than Abraham or Isaac.

S.D.K.R. Is it an evidence of his moving to what is spiritual that he speaks of his days as “sojourning”? There was a time when he dwelt in the land, but now he speaks of his days as “sojourning”.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

H.A.H. Would this link on with the thought of “the Mighty One of Jacob” that David brings in in Psalm 132? I was thinking of the striking reference to “the Mighty One of Jacob”. David seems to have it in mind as he comes to the habitation of God.

A.J.G. Yes, “the Mighty One of Jacob”. We were saying this morning that Israel refers to God as the Almighty God (Gen 43: 14), and in the practical exercises of the path of faith, we need to know God as the Mighty God.

F.W.B. Verse 28 of chapter 47 refers to “the days of Jacob”. Verse 29 says “the days of Israel”. Would there be a reason for the change?

A.J.G. That is very interesting. “The days of Jacob, the years of his life, were a hundred and forty-seven years”. I think when “Jacob” is mentioned we are not always to think of crookedness and supplanting, although he was that naturally, but “Jacob” is the subject of the work of God, and the result of that work is Israel, you might say.

A.C.S.P. In that way, do we need to think about our brethren, as to what they are that can be set forward by Christ? Joseph sets them before Pharaoh.

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure of that.

A.C.S.P. Might it help us to look around for the features that he would take pleasure in, and to which He would call attention?

A.J.G. Present them before God, yes. And the epistle of Jude seems to contemplate a day coming when God will Himself present us “with exultation blameless before his glory”, v 24. So that there is the idea of setting or presenting before God, or before His glory.

C.J.B.S. Would the thought of moral worth lie behind the way Paul speaks of himself when he writes to Philemon, and he says, “I rather exhort, being such a one as Paul the aged, and now also prisoner of Jesus Christ”, Philemon 9? Would the moral worth have been acquired in the years to which he refers?

A.J.G. Exactly, “such a one as Paul the aged”. We have no record in the scriptures, of course, but as far as we understand from history, Paul was not particularly aged, as we measure age, but he was aged in experience with God, and in faithfulness in the testimony.

R.S.W. Would David be in the spirit of this, when he addresses God in 1 Chronicles 29? He says, “who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer willingly after this manner? for all is of thee, and of that which is from thy hand have we given thee. For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow”, vv 14, 15. Would he have gained the benefit of all the discipline, and have got on to the side of God Himself, and His thoughts with His people?

A.J.G. I think so, and that is really very much in line with what Jacob comes to, as we see in chapter 48.

F.J.D. Would you say what is in your mind as to Jacob becoming a blesser now? He blesses Pharaoh, and later the sons of Joseph.

A.J.G. It is a feature of spiritual power to be able to bless. People say in the world, ‘God bless you’, and it is just a term with them, and it has not any power behind it, but to be able to do it really is a great feature of spirituality. So we get, for instance, in 1 Chronicles 23: 13, “Aaron was separated, that he should be hallowed as most holy, he and his sons for ever, to offer before Jehovah, to do service to him, and to bless in his name for ever”. So that the priests not only minister to God, but they bless in His name. That is, they represent God in blessing others, and that is a feature of spiritual power.

R.H.S. What would be the difference between the days in chapter 47, and the days in chapter 49, where it says, “the God that shepherded me all my life long to this day”, v 15?

A.J.G. I think the very fact that he says “to this day” shows that he is valuing each day now. He has learned to number his days.

W.McK. Would the closing phases of Jacob’s history find their anti-type in any way in the closing phases of the assembly’s history here? I was thinking particularly of the power of influence in blessing in the assembly at the end.

A.J.G. I think there is a lot in that. I believe Jacob’s history is intended to find its answer in what is brought to pass in the assembly, because he finishes as a worshipper, worshipping God and rightly representing God, which really is what is in mind in the epistle to the Corinthians, although the Corinthians themselves were far short of it; that is the Corinthian position, representative of God amongst men, where they are placed.

A.B. With reference to what has been said about days, would the change of position in this chapter bear on it? That is, the change of the brethren, in that they become shepherds, and now the change with Jacob, in that he now becomes a blesser. Would it bear upon us all, in that, as Peter says, for the rest of our time we should be here for the will of God, 1 Pet 4: 2?

A.J.G. Quite so, and we are told to “bless, and curse not”, Rom 12: 14. And Peter says, “blessing others, because ye have been called to this, that ye should inherit blessing”. 1 Pet 3: 9.

C.J.H.D. Is there not a touch of recovery, at the end of Psalm 90, that has been referred to? There is the appeal by Moses, “Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, according to the years wherein we have seen evil. Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy majesty unto their sons”, vv 15, 16. In the last seventeen years of Jacob’s life would not the work be appearing, and God’s majesty be before him?

A.J.G. I think so. There would be a certain majesty about what shone in Jacob. He was greater that the greatest potentate of the day, and he comes out as blessing Pharaoh, and then he blesses his own sons, and then he blesses Joseph’s sons. He is a great blesser at the end of his days.

C.J.H.D. And would not we, as of the assembly, in these wonderful days, come out more in the character of blessing, now that we have the majesty of God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—before us?

A.J.G. I think so, But we have to watch our spirits, and be careful that we do, because we are sometimes tested in the world by unreasonable men, and so on, and it is a question whether we can maintain the grace that is characteristic of this dispensation, in our attitude towards men.

E.S. Would you think that the cup of blessing comes in in 1 Corinthians 10 for that reason, because it is to do with our movements in the presence of this adversity that you refer to?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. The cup of blessing is brought in first there, before the loaf, showing that we are under obligation to God.

E.S. I was thinking of the necessity for blessing preceding worship.

A.J.G. Yes. But now in chapter 48: 8, where we read, it says, “And Israel beheld Joseph’s sons”, and then, in verse 10, it says, “But the eyes of Israel were heavy from age: he could not see”. It is “Israel” all through this paragraph. I think what is brought forward is that the work of God is shining in him; that is, what is natural is becoming increasingly weakened. He could not see, and so on; natural faculties and powers are failing, but, as they fail, what is spiritual comes more and more into view. So that he says to Joseph, in regard of Joseph’s sons, “Bring them, I pray thee, to me, that I may bless them”, Gen 48: 9. See how the thought of blessing is prominent in his mind! And then it says that he brought them nearer to him “and he kissed them, and embraced them”. It is a question of being developed in real affection, and affection for the young, consideration for the young, and the ability to put an impress of love upon them, so that they are impressed and encouraged.

W.McK. It is striking that it says, “He kissed them, and embraced them”. Embracing them is more than a kiss, is it not? I think Mr Taylor said, on one occasion¹¹, that the embrace involves power in love.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

E.A.K. Had he not already taken them over in the type of adoption, corresponding with Ephesians 1, as showing the high spiritual level on which this scripture is, to which you are directing our attention?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. You are referring to the earlier part of the chapter, where he says, “Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon”, v 5?

E.A.K. Yes. And Joseph, if he had been spiritually alert, would have got his key from that, would he not, which he appears to have overlooked?

A.J.G. Quite so. So that in this chapter—or certainly in the latter half of the chapter—Joseph is not a type of Christ. He might be regarded as a type of Christ where it says, “Behold, thy son Joseph is coming to thee”, v 2. I mean, there might be a suggestion in that that we can take up at the Supper, where the Lord is moving toward the Father, with His own. But when we come to the end of the chapter, it is the one point in Joseph’s history where an element of failure appears.

A.H. It is remarkable the way that Israel says, “I know, my son, I know”, Gen 48: 19. Do you think he would have learned that somehow, in connection with his own exercises, and what may have come to him from his mother? I was thinking of Genesis 25, where the struggle goes on inside her, and she learns that the first man has to give place to the second.

A.J.G. Quite so. I have no doubt that Jacob not only has learned that now, but he is delighting in it, because it brings us on to the ground of the pure sovereignty of God, and there is nothing so blessed as to be in our souls in the sense of the sovereignty of God.

A.H-e Is there not something to remark as to the place Joseph’s two sons have in Israel’s mind? They are brought nearer. Joseph says, “They are my sons, whom God has given me here”, as if there is something very special for Joseph’s own satisfaction and pleasure in these two sons.

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. And it is striking, too, that it says, “Joseph brought them out from his knees”, v 12. There are remarkable suggestions as to the great value and importance of the young, and of the coming generation, and how they were the subject of Joseph’s prayers, he “brought them out from his knees”. And then they are embraced by Israel. All these are features of spiritual development among us, that there is an outlook toward the coming generation, and there is constant prayer for them, and there is the ability to give them the sense that we are interested in them, for the testimony’s sake, and for the service of God.

N.F.A. So that, if Joseph is not a type of Christ here, is he a type of a believer that needs adjustment, and do we not often have to face these matters in our own families, as to the sovereignty of God?

A.J.G. I think we do, quite so.

W.McK. It is very affecting that there are two references to Joseph’s knees in those last chapters of Genesis. There is another reference in chapter 50: “And Joseph saw Ephraim’s children of the third generation; the sons also of Machir the son of Manasseh were born on Joseph’s knees”.

A.J.G. It is very striking. The touches that come into these scriptures are very remarkable, and are intended, I believe, to impress us, as we are nearing the end, with the great need for the spirit of care and shepherding to be developed among us, and for prayer for the saints to mark us, and not simply in our prayer-meetings but privately, where our knees come into use. We do not use our knees in the prayer-meeting, we stand up, but using your knees means that you are taking these things up for God, and with God, at home, as well as in the prayer-meeting.

A.J.C. Acts 20 refers to the apostle kneeling down and praying, and they embraced him ardently and kissed him, having referred to shepherd care.

A.J.G. Exactly. That is very interesting. And then in Ephesians 3, Paul says, “I bow my knees” (v 14), that is not in the prayer-meeting, and yet you see what a large scope he had before him in his private prayers at home, or rather in the prison. So it is something for us, as to seeing to it that our prayers at home privately are not perfunctory, but that we take time to embrace the interests of God in our private prayers, as well as in the prayer-meeting.

J.McM. I think that is important, because the result of that would surely be as we come together, that whatever contribution we make—thinking particularly of the readings—while we all feed from the same table, we would always have in mind those we have carried before God, so that things would be clear for the young.

A.J.G. Quite so. Then take a meeting where things are not very alive, where there is a sense perhaps of deadness, and things being held up, and a great many young brothers not in liberty, and all that kind of thing, are the saints taking these things up in private exercise, or are they not? If there is no exercise about these things, things will continue dead and lifeless, but if there is exercise and the readiness to take up the matter privately with God, we shall find that things begin to move.

G.H.M. Is not parental power developed on this line of prayer, rather than on the line of any correctness of teaching?

A.J.G. Prayer must accompany it. We must not disparage correctness of teaching, because Paul was concerned about “cutting in a straight line the word of truth” (2 Tim 2: 15), as he says to Timothy. That is, he was concerned that there should be accuracy of teaching, but at the same time that is not everything, because it has to be followed up with prayer.

A.H. In that connection I was thinking of Hosea, whose concern seems to be great for the development of this shepherd care, and right features amongst the saints. He refers very touchingly to Jacob’s tears, and then admonishes the brethren to “wait on thy God continually”, Hos 12: 6.

A.J.G. Yes, and it is he too who says that “Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep”, Hos 12: 12. So that it shows that he is suggesting to us in that scripture, I think, that there is to be the shepherding, and all the service of love that shepherding involves, but always with the light of the assembly before you. “Israel served for a wife”, and it is with that in mind that anyone in prepared to take up the service of shepherding.

F.J.D. As to Hosea, I was just going to ask you as to the touching references to the way in which God speaks in Hosea 11. It says, “I it was that taught Ephraim to walk”, and he goes on to say “He took them upon his arms”, Hos 11: 3. I wondered whether we are to have right feelings in relation to those who are younger among us.

A.J.G. I am sure that is so.

A.B. In regard to those that are young, you would encourage us in our private prayers to name the young ones individually before God—not only to pray for them generally, but to have them in mind individually—would you?

A.J.G. Yes, I would, indeed, because you cannot lump them all together when it comes to a question of where they are in their souls, and what their needs are. And so we have to recognise that each has his own distinct personality, and so it says that our names are written in heaven. That is, each of the saints has his or her own personality with God.

A.B. In a general way has it not often been proved that where there is affection for the young ones, the young ones—when the Lord works with them—know whom to turn to? That is, in a general way, they will go, among the saints, to those who they know love them.

A.J.G. That would be normal. And in speaking of the young ones, we should bear in mind that it is not only the young ones that need care, because the sheep had to be shepherded and fed.

R.M.Y. Even Joseph needed a touch of shepherding here, did he not? His father does not exactly rebuke him, but he just shepherds him into the full current of the truth, would you think?

A.J.G. He says, “I know, my son, I know”. There is something in which Jacob has the advantage over Joseph. He has had years of experience with God that Joseph has not had, and he says, “I know, my son, I know”.

J.McM. That is important. We may have light, and a measure of gift, but we need to be prepared to wait on what there is amongst the saints in the way of experience, do you think?

A.J.G. Quite so. And then there is this movement of Israel’s wittingly putting his hand on the younger, and maintaining it; it shows how he appreciated sovereignty. I think there is nothing more calculated to promote the spirit of worship than to be impressed in our souls by a sense of the sovereignty of God. And that is what the epistle to the Ephesians opens with, the opening up of the great thoughts of God that are purely His sovereignty.

C.J.H.D. And is there a touch of sovereignty in the fact that these two sons were born in Gentile surroundings, so that Israel in the coming day will have to learn to bless because of what has come out in the assembly?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

W.B.H. Is it striking that in the Ephesian epistle, and also in Colossians, where the sovereignty of God is alluded to, that we get a word as to what is suitable in our attitude toward one another, and the young especially? I was thinking of the word in Ephesians 6, speaking to the children, “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is just. Honour thy father and thy mother”, and so on (vv 1, 2), and then it says, “ye fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and admonition of the Lord”, v 4. And then again in Colossians there is an additional word that is perhaps important, “Fathers, do not vex your children, to the end that they be not disheartened”, Col 3: 2l. I was thinking of what you were saying as to care for the young.

A.J.G. These scriptures show the importance of the Christian household and the family setting. It is striking that in Exodus 12, where we have the beginning of things: “This month shall be unto you the beginning of months”, and the introduction of the passover, you get an early reference to the assembly, and then immediately after that a reference to the fathers’ houses, showing the close link. The assembly is in God’s mind, in redeeming us from Egypt, but then the position is to be strengthened by the fathers’ houses, houses where there is a fatherly influence.

E.A.K. So do we get the features of a father very beautifully in Jacob here, in verses 15 and 16, in the deep parental feeling, in the way he expresses himself? “The God that shepherded me all my life long to this day, the Angel that redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named upon them”? Paul said, “Not many fathers”, 1 Cor 4: 15.

A.J.G. Yes, indeed. He seems, you might say, to commend God in deep feeling, in the way he speaks of God to Joseph. Now just a touch on the last chapter, because we find from verse 15 onwards that Joseph’s brethren are, it appears, not yet fully established in grace. So that it says, “If now Joseph should be hostile to us”, Gen 50: 15. We need to be careful to see that we are maintained in our souls in the sense of grace. It is quite right, in one sense, to deepen in self-judgment in regard of our past, but not to be occupied with it, and certainly not to get into any spirit of bondage. Grace is the order of the day, and, Christ having died, and been buried, all that is reprehensible connected with our history is out of God’s sight for ever, never to be revived, and we are to be maintained in the sense of that, by the Spirit. I believe nothing will so maintain us in the sense of that as to keep our hearts in the light of Christ in the Father’s presence, and the unclouded favour that rests upon Him, and rests upon us. That is a settled position, and we need to watch that no spirit of bondage, or anything of that sort that would bring in distance, should be allowed with us, but we are to keep ourselves in the light of grace.

A.A.G. So that Peter, at the end of his first epistle, testifies and exhorts that it is “the true grace of God in which ye stand”, 1 Pet 5: 12. And in verse 10 of that chapter he refers to God as “the God of all grace”.

A.J.G. That is very striking: “the God of all grace who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ Jesus”. What a thing to keep before us!

R.M.Y. Why do Joseph’s brethren go over this ground after their father was dead?

A.J.G. I suppose they had a feeling that while Jacob was alive, Joseph was favourable to them, and had a fear that his attitude might change. But what had you in your mind?

R.M.Y. I just wondered if the application to us was that to be established in grace we must have direct relationships with the Lord himself, and not just lean, either on others who have experience or on those who are more spiritual than we.

A.J.G. I am sure that is important.

D.S.H. Is there not some indication of distance in verse 16: “they sent a messenger to Joseph”.

A.J.G. Yes, there is. That just shows how easily a spirit of legality and of distance may come into our souls if we are not watchful. Before this Joseph had kissed them, and they had spoken with him, and why then this sudden change, and any suggestion, that he would be hostile?

A.H-e. Do you think that there was anything to substantiate that their father has said those things at all?

A.J.G. I doubt if he had.

A.H-e. It was rather their own inward feelings, and lack of full appreciation of Joseph, was it not?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. It says, at the end of verse 17, “Joseph wept when they spoke to him”, showing how deep his feelings were. And I think we may say rightly that the Lord feels it; if we, in our own outlook and spirits, depart from the sense of the grace in which we are before God.

W.McK. Do you think chapters 13 and 14 of John’s gospel would help us? “Jesus ... having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end”, or ‘through everything’, John 13: l. And then all the failure coming in, in chapter 14 He says, “Let not your heart be troubled”, v l.

A.J.G. Exactly. It is not that those things are to make us careless as to sin or breakdown, or anything of that sort, but, at the same time, the grace remains. “He has taken us into favour in the Beloved” (Eph 1: 6), and you cannot alter that. And so it says, “Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee”, Eph 5: 14.

R.S.W. Could you say a word or two more as to the way in which we are maintained in liberty by keeping before us Christ in the Father’s presence?

A.J.G. Because that is the measure of favour in which God has set us. It is an unchanging position, that has come in. As Mr Darby’s hymn says, ‘And lasts while Jesus lives’.

E.A.K. So that, does he throw them back on divine purpose here, in what he says, “God meant it for good”, Gen 50: 20? If you apply it to us, it is a question of the purposes of God, which can never be affected.

A.J.G. Exactly, and it has in view “to save a great people alive”, v 20. It is what the saints or the assembly are now before God; they are great in His eyes, and they are living.

A.H. Would you say that some measure of understanding and appreciation of the blessing of Israel, in the previous chapter, and especially of the word he says about Joseph, would have kept this out of their hearts, and out of ours too.

A.J.G. You are referring to Joseph as a fruitful bough (Gen 49: 22), and so on. Yes. I think it is a question of keeping our eye on Joseph, that is, on Christ.

N.F.A. So that, whilst it is right to be bondmen in a certain setting, to say here that they were bondman would indicate that they had lost the sense of his grace and favour.

A.J.G. Exactly.

C.J.H.D. Is that not Luke 15: “Make me as one of thy hired servants”, v 19? But the son is not able to express that, because he belongs to the great people, does he not.

A.J.G. Quite so. And he had been covered with kisses. How could one who had been covered with kisses talk about being a hired servant?

F.W.K. There is another reference here to being maintained.

A.J.G. I was just noticing that. “And now, fear not: I will maintain you and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spoke consolingly to them”, v 21.

H.S. I was just going to ask if you would say something about the two “Fear nots”, in verse 19 and verse 21. Is it a measure of assurance in this position?

A.J.G. “Fear not: am I then in the place of God?”, v 19. That is, he is directing their thoughts to God. If we want to get right thoughts, full thoughts, as to God, let us read the first chapter of Ephesians. And then again he says, “And now, fear not; I will maintain you and your little ones”, v 21.

W.B.H. You were emphasising the word ‘alive’. Would you say a little as to what that really does involve?

A.J.G. God is known to us as the living God, and we are to be maintained in life by the Spirit, that is to say, God is looking for worshippers “Who worship him in spirit and truth” (John 4: 24), not in any formal way, but in the spontaneity of life.

P.B.D. Are we experiencing something of this maintenance, in the times that have just passed over our heads?

A.J.G. Quite so.

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