Reading 3—Lord’s day afternoon
Reading 3—Lord’s day afternoon
Genesis 42: 6-8, 16-28; 43: 16-24; 44: 1-2, 14-17; 45: 1-8.
A.J.G. We are seeking help from the history of Joseph, having specially in mind its obvious link with the epistle to the Colossians, where we have it said that “Christ is in you”—or ‘among you’—“the hope of glory”, Col 1: 21. The Colossians being a Gentile company, it refers to the place that Christ has in the faith and affections of the Gentiles. And, in connection with that phase in God’s ways, His most precious thoughts have been brought to light, including what scripture calls the mystery, “the mystery of God”, it says in Colossians 2: 2, 3, “in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, involving a vast company from among the Gentiles mainly, secured by the gospel, knit and held together under the influence of Christ, and united to Him, and taking character from Him, living in His life, so that the body of Christ is here, under God’s eye, in which all that Jesus is as pleasing to God in Manhood is expanded for the pleasure of God. Now this is, among other things, what we have been called to, and it necessitates a good deal of adjustment and formation for us to fit into it, the first essential being that we should be right in our relations with one another, because you cannot get the working of the body unless the members are thoroughly delivered from every element of selfishness and independence. We must be thoroughly together and that is to work out in our localities. Then another thing is that we should be delivered from the influence of what is natural, so as to take on what is spiritual. I think the Lord may help us to see that in these chapters 42 to 45 that Joseph, typical of the Lord, is working in relation to these two things. He is working in relation to his brethren, that everything that is unsuited to them as brethren should be judged; because they were all guilty of having wronged their brother, Joseph, and that was a matter which, although when Joseph deals with his brethren, it was twenty-two years old, had never been judged by them, and never been faced; and these chapters bring out the skill and tenderness and faithfulness of Joseph in bringing about the needed adjustment with his brethren. Perhaps on another occasion, the Lord may help us to see that in connection with Joseph’s dealings and relations with Jacob, the other matter is being taken up, that is, our deliverance from being held by what is natural, so that we might move into what is spiritual. But this afternoon we might confine ourselves to looking at Joseph in relation to his brethren, having in mind that they are to be secured in right relations as brethren, in order to which their conduct in relation to their brother—who was Joseph—has to be really faced in its true features, and judged. They are chapters that delineate very great skill on Joseph’s part, and skill too on the part of the Spirit—“the man who was over his house”—and very deep feeling on the part of Joseph, all of which we can well afford to take account of. We can see that God was working in order that these brethren should be forced to have to do with Joseph, so that He uses the famine to that end. As it says, in Psalm 105, “he called for a famine upon the land; he broke the whole staff of bread. He sent a man before them” (Ps 105: 16, 17), and so on. The famine was in God’s ways His means of forcing the brethren of Joseph to have to do with him, so that the whole matter of their brotherly relations might be raised.
A.H. In that connection, is there some importance in what it says in verse 6, “he was the governor over the land—he it was that sold the corn to all the people of the land”?
A.J.G. You mean it is striking that the man who was the governor should have personal relations, in that way, with every one who came for corn?
A.H. I wondered whether that was in your mind.
A.J.G. It rather reminds one of the Lord’s word to Laodicea, “I counsel thee to buy of me ...” certain things, as though the necessity is to have personal relations with Christ.
A.H. With the real consciousness in our souls, do you think, that He is supreme, that He is the governor over the land?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. He does not present himself, of course, as “I am Joseph your brother”, until they have arrived at the point that he wishes them to arrive at. He is at the moment, in a sense, distant from them, but having authority and power, the “governor over the land”, as you say. It says, “Joseph knew his brethren, but they did not know him”, Gen 42: 8.
N.F.A. In saying what you did about the famine, as to God calling for it, is that what you had in mind yesterday, when you said that, if there was lack of food in a locality, it should make us go to the Lord about it, because there would be some moral matter underneath?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is so. Because Christ is in glory, and all fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily, and the Spirit is here, so that there are conditions of plenty, only that God looks for right conditions, or else the plenty will be withheld.
W.McK. Is it significant that both Abraham and Jacob too faced this matter of brotherly relations, Abraham in regard to Lot, and he shines in it, and then Jacob had to face the matter of Esau, and its approach by the way of personal dealings with God?
A.J.G. That is very interesting. It is interesting too, to note that it says, in verse 7 of chapter 42, that he “spoke roughly to them”. We know from what follows that there was nothing but affection, and affectionate desire, in the heart of Joseph towards his brethren, but the roughness was a necessity, which Joseph would feel very much having to employ, but nevertheless he did speak roughly to them.
W.B.H. Would that have a link with his skill that you have spoken of?
A.J.G. Yes, I think it is part of the skill. The combination on the one hand of rough treatment, including putting them in custody, and binding Simeon before their eyes, and keeping him bound, with grace that returns their money, and feeds them, on the other hand, is very striking all through these chapters. There is a remarkable combination of severity with grace.
C.J.H.D. So Paul says, in Galatians 4: 20, “I should wish to be present with you now, and change my voice, for I am perplexed as to you”.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. He would fain have adopted other language than that which he found it necessary to adopt.
L.M. Would you say something as to their bowing down to him? We did not quite get your thought yesterday, some of us, as to the other sheaves that were bound. There was just one sheaf standing up, Christ and His brethren.
A.J.G. Here they had to bow down to him. They recognised from the dream that that was what was implied. Indeed, the second dream was abundantly clear, “the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me”, Gen 37: 9. The brethren’s sheaves in the first dream came and bowed down to his sheaf, but the sun and moon and eleven stars bowed down to him, and it is there that his father says, “Shall we indeed come, I and thy mother and thy brethren, to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” So that this may be an allusion to the second dream, more than to the first, but both were to the same general purpose. Only that in the first dream it is sheaves, Joseph’s sheaf, and the sheaves of his brethren, whereas in the second dream it is more personal, the sun and the moon and the stars bowing down to him.
R.M.Y. Is it to be noted that almost the first exercise he raises with them is the matter of honesty? Is it so that when any difficulty arises, the first thing to establish is honesty and truth in the matter, is it not?
A.J.G. It is. So David when fully repentant, in Psalm 51, says, “Thou wilt have truth in the inward parts”, Ps 51: 6. We have to do with God, as One who is true. It says, “We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true”, 1 John 5: 20. It is not there ‘know the true God’, but “know him that is true”, that God is absolutely true, and will have everything in its right moral relation. And then it says, “we are in him that is true”, we are brought very near to Him, and therefore He must have truth in the inward parts.
W.B.H. So that walking in truth, in the second epistle, would be the subjective answer to that.
A.J.G. Yes, I think it would. And that is what the Lord intends to secure with us all, and our localities, and our relations with one another, which are divinely ordered, are intended to promote right brotherly relations in every place. Because you cannot really have the truth of the body worked out, save in the measure in which we are together in love.
W.R.B. Would the word in Hebrews 4, about the word of God being living and operative, have any bearing on truth in the inward parts?
A.J.G. It has a very definite bearing. So it says that it is “penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart” (Heb 4: 12), and so on.
A.H-e. Whatever transpired, Joseph knew his brethren, but they did not know him. Is that not encouraging for us all?
A.J.G. I think it is. The Lord knows every one of us through and through, and He really wants us to know ourselves. He wants us to reach the true character of anything that has been working in us that is not according to God, but with a view that we should know ourselves according to what we are by the work of God, and learn to identify ourselves with that, and to repudiate all else.
A.C.S.P. It says, “he made himself strange to them, and spoke roughly to them”. Does it stress the calculated character of what he is doing?
A.J.G. I think it does.
A.H. In this remarkable matter, does it make it attractive to face these things with the Lord, as we understand that He has life in mind? “This do, that ye may live”, Gen 42: 18.
A.J.G. Yes, indeed, and he pursues his way steadily and skilfully with that in view, and the first thing that he insists upon is that their youngest brother must come down with them, and that he will not see them unless he does. We did not read the first part of chapter 43, but there Judah says to his father, when they have gone back the first time, “The man did positively testify to us saying, Ye shall not see my face, unless your brother be with you”, Gen 43: 3. That is what we get in verse 16 of chapter 42: “Send one of you, that he may fetch your brother”, but Judah shows that Joseph was insistent about it, that they should not see his face, unless Benjamin was with them.
J.McM. Is that a wonderful evidence of this marvellous skill you are speaking of that, while he is out to reach their conscience, he refers to something that will touch their hearts?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and I have no doubt they would have the feeling, inwardly, whether they acknowledged it or not, that Benjamin was different from the rest of them. What do you think?
J.McM. That was just what I was thinking, really. Sometimes we may have to seek to help each other in the matter of conscience, but should we not, at the same time, be concerned to draw out some link that they have with the Lord, some appreciation of Christ?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure. I suppose Benjamin, we might say, represents a subjective answer in us, or in the brethren, to Christ. He was born, not only of the same father, but of the same mother as Joseph, and was different in that respect from the rest of the brethren. So that the Lord would insist that there must be some subjective correspondence to the truth. It is one thing to be born of the same father, and to be, so to speak, in the generation of faith, but then that is not sufficient, the Lord looks that there should be some subjective correspondence with the truth.
A.C.S.P. Does it really involve that the solution of matters can go no further until that begins to come to light?
A.J.G. I think so. It is all involved in God requiring truth in the inward parts. The truth is not something to be held objectively, without any correspondence with it. And so, in connection with the approach to God in Leviticus, there was not only the burnt offering, speaking of complete acceptance in Christ and our appreciation of that, but along with it, God looked for an oblation and a drink offering. Every day, morning and evening, there was to be not only the burnt offering, but also the oblation and the drink offering, and they, I understand, refer to the subjective answer in us to that which we appreciate objectively in the burnt offering.
A.C.S.P. In that connection, this matter of food was absolutely vital, or Benjamin would have died too.
A.J.G. Quite so.
F.W.K. Would Philadelphia represent what you are speaking of, as to subjective results? I was thinking of the little strength, and “thou ... hast not denied my name” (Rev 3: 8), as over against what was lacking in the other assemblies.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
W.J.S. You have spoken of skill on Joseph’s part. Was there that skill behind all this, that Benjamin should be with the brethren?
A.J.G. And that the brethren should have him with them, I think we might say. This chapter 42 also brings out, in verse 21, how the truth is beginning to work in their consciences, and they say, “We are indeed guilty concerning our brother, whose anguish of soul we saw when he besought us, and we did not hearken”. That is a detail that we do not get in the actual history, when they actually did strip Joseph of his coat of colours, and put him in the pit, and then sell him. We do not read of that there, but now it comes to light.
F.J.D. That causes Joseph to weep, the first of the three occasions.
A.J.G. That is very striking. I wonder whether we sufficiently realise in connection with conditions locally that are not what the Lord would have them to be, how He Himself feels in relation to them. These chapters would show us what deep feeling anything that is out of accord with the truth amongst us causes the heart of Christ.
J.McM. In that regard, do we do well to bear in mind that, as the Lord looks at the assembly in its responsible character, He looks at it in the garb that John saw Him in, when he fell at His feet as dead? Would that be sobering for us?
A.J.G. It is. That would be, I suppose, because the Lord is always considering for God, and therefore would be jealous that the accredited witness here for God, which the assembly is, should be faithful.
W.McK. Is there anything that would answer to the three days “in custody” at the present time?
A.J.G. It shows, I suppose, the faithful and patient way in which the Lord deals with matters, from step to step, so to speak. But had you something further in mind?
W.McK. I was thinking of how he says, “Ye ... shall be put to the proof, whether the truth is in you”, Gen 42: 16. If the truth was in them, the three days in custody would give it opportunity to work in them.
A.J.G. That is good, and that really comes to light. It is beginning to work, in that they say, “We are indeed guilty concerning our brother”. Another thing that comes to light is the absolute fairness of Joseph, and we can say, without any question, that the Lord is absolutely fair, in all His ways. Joseph does not take Reuben and bind him, although normally he would have done, because Reuben was the eldest son, but he does not, because Reuben had at any rate tried to do something for Joseph. He had not much moral power, and had not been able to effect anything, but still he had tried, and so Joseph does not take Reuben and bind him, as normally he would have done, as being the eldest, but he takes the next one, Simeon. Those are beautiful touches, as showing not only how skilful, but how absolutely fair are all the dealings of the Lord.
R.M.Y. In that connection, would you say something as to Joseph’s expression; “I fear God”, Gen 42: 18?
A.J.G. That is a very good lead to give them, do you not think? “I fear God”. It would raise the question whether they do. But you were thinking something also?
R.M.Y. I wondered if there was a touch of headship in it. Joseph himself was operating, as you have said, with great wisdom and skill. But “the Christ’s head God”, 1 Cor 11: 3. He would bring their souls into relationship with God Himself, would he not?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed.
A.A.G. Would there be any link with the presentation of the Lord in Isaiah 11, where it says, “the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. And his delight will be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears”, and so on?
A.J.G. That is very interesting, the stress given on the fear of Jehovah, and the Lord is acting in the recognition of headship, that His head is God, as our brother has said, and all in result must be for God.
J.McM. Do you think that in having to look at matters together, we need to do it as those who fear God, and who would seek to be—as Joseph was here—infinitely fair?
A.J.G. That is very important. And we have Christ as Head to turn to for wisdom. Indeed, it is in the epistle to the Corinthians, where the local position of the assembly as the accredited representative of God is in view, that it says that God has made Christ wisdom to us, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption, 1 Cor 1: 30.
D.S.H. Had you any further thought as to the selection of Simeon to be bound?
A.J.G. No, just that it seems to me to indicate how absolutely fair Joseph was. He will not overlook anything that can be said in the favour of any of them. And although Reuben is, in a sense, a weak character, and there is not much moral power with him, yet he had tried to deliver Joseph, and had intended to deliver him, and therefore that is borne in mind.
J.McK. Do you think that the prison-houses would work out to salvation? Are they thus not so much penal, as with a view to the soul being shut up to God?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed.
W.B.H. In that regard, I wondered whether the note to the word ‘put’ is not suggestive. “And he put”—or it may be rendered ‘gathered’—“them in custody three days”, Gen 42: 17. The putting them there would involve his consideration for them. Would that be right?
A.J.G. Yes. We need to bear in mind that in all this the final result is in Joseph’s mind. And the final result, you might say, is in what he says in chapter 45: 4, “Come near to me, I pray you”—nearness, not distance. Any moral question that is not faced and judged brings in distance, but he says, “Come near to me, I pray you”.
J.McM. In the principle of it, he gained his brethren.
A.J.G. Yes, in result he did.
H.J.V.H. Would you give us a word as to repentance? “Grief according to God works repentance”, 2 Cor 7: 10. They say here, “We are indeed guilty”. Often in our localities, statements are made. Could you say a word that would help us as to repentance—“... works repentance”?
A.J.G. “… repentance to salvation, never to be regretted”, it says. I think that appears in Judah at the end, in chapter 44, when he is found marked by readiness to sacrifice himself for his brother, and for his father. The brethren were guilty of the grossest conduct towards their brother, and they were guilty of the grossest conduct towards their father, in deceiving him, and what is finally brought to pass in the brethren is seen in Judah as representing them, I think. He comes to a point when he is ready to sacrifice himself for his brother, and for his father. I think in that way you can see that real repentance is brought to pass, at any rate in Judah.
D.C.B. Is the binding of Simeon before their eyes designed to touch their affections?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. They had treated Joseph in a callous way twenty-two years before, but now they are to see one of their own number bound before their eyes.
E.S. Do we require the same skill to recognise repentance, as we do in the operating with the persons concerned up to the point of repentance?
A.J.G. I think we do. Or the other hand, if it is really repentance that is wrought of God, never to be regretted, the signs of it are usually apparent. It was so with the Corinthians, because the apostle enlarges on it, what depth of feeling, and so on, he says.
W.McK. Were you going to say something more about what they say: “We are indeed guilty concerning our brother, whose anguish of soul we saw when he besought us, and we did not hearken?”
A.J.G. No, only that it brings in certain details that we do not get in chapter 37, where we have the history.
W.McK. I was wondering if it denoted that the adoption of a wrong course in relation to these matters had involved the doing of violence to every right feeling that belongs to the divine system.
A.J.G. It does indeed.
W.McK. Seen particularly in Judas, in an extreme way. He did violence to every right feeling that belonged to that circle, did he not?
A.J.G. Quite so.
M.D.S. Have you something to say about the government of God, operating behind all these searching questions that are raised among the brethren? Joseph says, later on, “God sent me before you” (Gen 45: 7), does he not?
A.J.G. Yes. It is a good thing for us to bear in mind that the government of God is always operating, without partiality. It operates in favour of those who do good, which is an encouraging thing to keep in mind. It operates against those who do evil, and that is always without partiality.
J.McM. Is it not interesting, too, how they have a sense that God is having to say to them? For example, in verse 28, they say, “What is this that God has done to us?” How we would desire the skill to bring each other into the presence of God to view things like this!
A.J.G. And does not that skill involve the ability to combine grace with severity? Because Joseph gave orders to fill their vessels with corn, and to restore every man’s money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way. “They loaded their asses with their grain” (v 26), and so on, and apparently it was the sight of their money returned that caused them to say what you draw attention to—“what is this that God has done to us?”
J.McM. I was just thinking of that, and longing for help to know how to move in that way if one were in those circumstances. The actual money put back affects them.
A.J.G. It is as though Joseph would impress them with grace, that all is of grace. They are not allowed to pay for anything—they are not allowed to the second time—they are to be impressed with grace, and they are to be fed at the same time. As we were saying yesterday, even in times of conflict, or whatever it might be, it is important that we should not neglect food. And so Joseph sees that they have plenty of food, while they are going through all these exercises.
R.H.S. Would you say a word on the difference between Reuben coming in here, and Judah, between the way that Reuben acts and the way that Judah acts? I was thinking of verse 22.
A.J.G. Judah seems to be, if one may so say, a better character than Reuben. Reuben has right desires, and right feelings up to a point, but he is weak, he has not any moral power. Whereas Judah seems to be representative of those in whom God is effecting repentance, so that in the end he shines.
R.M.Y. Do you think that Judah had got on to a right line himself, after a very terrible breakdown, when he said of Tamar, “She is more righteous than I”, Gen 38: 26? He had got on to the line of righteousness, had he not?
A.J.G. I had thought that that was a turning point in Judah’s history, when he acknowledged that. So that gradually, as partaking with the brethren in all these exercises, he really shines, as one who is prepared to lay down his life for the brethren.
P.B.D. It says, in verse 18 of chapter 44, that Judah came near to him. Is that the way he learned this self-sacrificing love, as taking account of it supremely in Joseph himself?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. So that he is arriving at what Joseph has in mind. We find what Joseph has in mind in chapter 45, when he says, “Come near to me, I pray you”, but Judah is arriving at it.
A.H. In Colossians, to which you have so helpfully referred, we have a word in chapter 3 which says, “having put off the old man with his deeds, and having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him”, vv 9, 10. Is this disciplinary action of Joseph typical of the Lord, how He helps us in this matter of putting off and putting on?
A.J.G. Yes, I would think so.
A.H. We cannot think of those things as automatic, can we? They involve having to do with the Lord in a very real way, do they not?
A.J.G. Yes, and taking up the truth in our minds. I take it that putting off and putting on is a question of something arrived at in our minds. We have to maintain it, of course, in the Spirit, but, in the light of the death of Christ, and His resurrection, we come to it that one order of man is refused, and another order of man is appreciated and taken on.
A.H. In that way, I wondered whether what you earlier referred to, in chapter 43, where Judah speaks to Jacob, shows that he has come to that in some measure in his soul.
A.J.G. Yes. “The man did positively testify to us, saying, Ye shall not see my face, unless your brother be with you”, Gen 43: 3. What Benjamin stands for was an absolute necessity, if they were to have any dealings in nearness with Joseph.
C.J.B.S. Would the word in Colossians 1: 28, “admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ”, have a bearing on Benjamin being with them? And would the spirit of Joseph be seen reflected in Paul and Timotheus in their combat in order that the brethren might be united in love?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right.
J.McK. Would you think there is something significant in the final phases of recovery being brought about in Joseph’s house?
A.J.G. That is very interesting, I was just going to pass on to chapter 43, and verse 16 and onwards, because we have the man who is over his house who seems to come into prominence at that point. But would you say what you are thinking of?
J.McK. I was thinking, not only of Joseph, and the dealings at the door, and the prison-house, but once they are on the basis of being in the house, and there is no limitation on Joseph’s side, the end must come quickly.
A.J.G. Quite so. Are you thinking of the assembly?
J.McK. I was thinking that. Joseph’s house is the whole system of things, is it not? And then there is the particular meal laid on for them. It would all soften their affections, would it not?
A.J.G. Quite so. It is very striking, it seems to me, how, from verse 16 of chapter 43 onwards, this man who is over Joseph’s house is brought forward, and they have certain relations with him, before they are brought into Joseph’s presence.
W.J.S. The gentle way he speaks to them is remarkable, in contrast to Joseph’s rough handling of them.
A.J.G. All that is part of the divine skill, is it not?
R.S.W. Would you say that this showing of goodness would tend to make the men feel that they had been the very opposite of it all, and thus it would lead to deep repentance?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
H.A.H. Do you link the man over the house with the Holy Spirit?
A.J.G. I think he is suggestive of the Holy Spirit, and the part He would take in all these matters, because now the men draw near to him. It says, “And the men were afraid because they were brought into Joseph’s house”, and so on, “And they came up to the man that was over Joseph’s house, and they spoke to him at the door of the house”. It is as though they are prepared now to have to do with this man who was over Joseph’s house, though not yet ready to have to do with Joseph himself.
W.B.H. Would you say that perhaps that is why, in 1 Corinthians 2, the Spirit is so emphasised? You were referring to the Corinthian epistle, and the local position, and I thought it was striking that the Spirit should be so definitely alluded to in that early chapter.
A.J.G. Quite so. So that it speaks of discernment in that chapter. “The spiritual discerns all things” (1 Cor 2: 15); that is the result of the Spirit being in the one who is spiritual. “And he is discerned of no one”, and so on. So that there is great discernment characterising the presence of the Spirit.
A.C.S.P. Is it striking that all this activity, now of the man over the house, and all that goes on in the house, flows out of Joseph seeing Benjamin with them? He does not say a word.
A.J.G. That is very striking. Now he is beginning to take account of the work of God showing itself, as represented in Benjamin. And so this service of the man who was over his house comes into view.
A.H. Is there any thought that, in working these things out, the saints are now coming to some recognition of the Spirit? I was thinking of verse 19, and then, as a result of that, there is that remarkable word in verse 23, would you think?
A.J.G. That was what I had in mind. The Spirit seems to be acquiring a place with them. In chapter 44 we find that that same man who is over Joseph’s house searches their sacks. Every sack has to be laid down on the ground, and opened up, “And he”—that is, the man over Joseph’s house—“searched carefully: he began at the eldest, and ended at the youngest”, Gen 44: 12. So that there is a searching process now going on, which is just what we see in Psalm 139, that David came to it that he could not flee from the presence of God. Really, as applying it to us, he was conscious that God was dwelling in him—so near to him that he could not get away from Him, and the result of that is that he is searched. But then the final result, as we often said, is that he prays to be searched, he desires it himself, knowing that it works out for his good. Psalm 51 is the Psalm of repentance, but Psalm 139 is how he is conscious of the presence of the Spirit in him, and the searching character of it.
W.McK. Is there a certain process of separation going on? The brethren of Joseph come down in common with others for food, but they are gradually being separated, and brought into the house. I was thinking of the Lord’s dealings with the disciples in the gospels. They were being gently separated from all around, and so much goes on in the house under the Lord’s direction.
A.J.G. Yes, very good.
C.J.H.D. As to Psalm 139, is there not an indication at the end of that Psalm, or towards the end, of the Benjamin character of the saints, Benjamin being the only one born in the heavenly land, when it says, “in thy book all my members were written”, v 16? It is a great contrast, is it not, with the earlier part of that Psalm, where, there is the consciousness of being searched?
A.J.G. Yes, he seems to come to a point where he takes account of the work of God, and really identifies himself with it.
C.J.H.D. And that links on with our proper origin as being heavenly.
A,J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.O.T. Does anyone come into blessing apart from the striving of the Spirit?
A.J.G. No, I think we have to recognise that the Spirit is operating all the time; if God operates, it is by means of the Spirit.
R.F.D. I would like to ask if there is any correspondence between the man over Joseph’s house, and the master of the house in Luke 22.
A.J.G. I dare say there is, only Luke 22 is quite a different set of circumstances. There it is circumstances that are congenial to the Lord; the master of the house is quite ready to place his upper room at the disposal of the Lord, and so on. Here we have the master of Joseph’s house considering for Joseph in bringing about right conditions in the brethren.
J.McK. Did the man that was over the house have the idea of bringing them along with some measure of substance in their souls?
A.J.G. It seems so.
J.McK. He says, “your God, and the God of your father, has given you treasure in your sacks”, Gen 43: 23. Really the outcome of it all is the knowledge of God, is it not? A.J.G. Quite so. And it may be in that connection that the liberation of Simeon comes in. But now we have this matter of the cup in Benjamin’s sack. “Put my cup, the silver cup, in the mouth of the sack of the youngest”, Gen 44: 2. And then, as we were saying a moment ago, “searched carefully: he began at the eldest, and ended at the youngest”. So that they were all involved in this searching, “and the cup was found in Benjamin’s sack”.
J.McM. Was Benjamin the only one who was morally equal to having in his sack the cup in which Joseph divined?
A.J.G. I suppose so. It is a remarkable thing that all through these exercises Benjamin does not say a word. He is the overcomer, you might say, but he is there as fully committed to the position, and sharing the exercise with his brethren, and not saying a word.
A.C.S.P. In that connection, could I enquire whether perhaps the sisters should take courage from that, as to the important part they have in the exercises that come up amongst us, and the conflicts for the truth? The Spirit is after producing the features of Christ in the brethren, and they have a great part in it.
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. And the overcomer is to be thoroughly with his brethren; he cannot stand apart and say, I am not guilty. Benjamin is thoroughly with his brethren, and not saying a word in self-vindication, or anything of that kind, and yet personally guiltless.
J.McM. No doubt those who were of the household of Chloe, evidently priestly for they could show certain things to Paul, would be thoroughly with the brethren in the repentance that Paul’s ministry brought about.
A.J.G. Quite so.
A.H. I was thinking of your statement as to the maintenance of the food supply. Here where the exercise is beginning to get right down to the depths, he says, “Fill the men’s sacks with food, as much as they can carry”, Gen 44: l.
A.J.G. “And put every man’s money in the mouth of his sack”. That is, he is to be constantly reminded of grace, and that the Lord’s dealings with us are on that principle. He is not against us, He is not making demands, it is all on the principle of grace, He is only desiring that we should come to the acknowledgement of the truth.
E.S. What does “my cup, the silver cup” imply?
A.J.G. I would like help as to it, but I think I can see this in it, at any rate, that it was that in which Joseph drank. That is, to say, there is a suggestion in it of what affords pleasure to the heart of Joseph. The Lord is entitled to look for pleasure from His people, and every time there is any wrong going on amongst us—wrong conditions in any locality, any failure practically to love one another—it causes Him sorrow rather than joy and satisfaction. So that we are really depriving Him of His cup.
J.W.G. Is there any link with Pharaoh’s cup? Does the silver cup of Joseph involve the appreciation that he has of one moving in that way, as bearing in mind what is really for God?
A.J.G. I think so. Pharaoh’s cup was really to minister to the pleasure of Pharaoh. That was the butler’s responsibility, and that is really our responsibility in every locality, that we should be considering for what pleases the Lord. And any conduct amongst us that is displeasing, any distance between brethren is robbing the Lord of His own portion.
E.S. Would the stress on the ‘silver’ help us to understand what Paul meant, when he said, “Ye are not your own, for ye have been bought with a price”, 1 Cor 6: 19, 20?
A.J.G. Yes, it would.
W.McK. At Antioch they were said to be “Ministering to the Lord and fasting”, Acts 13: 2. Would the one be the cup, and the other the maintenance of conditions amongst the brethren?
A.J.G. Yes, it would.
A.H. Is there significance, do you think, in verse 3, where the Spirit of God brings in the expression, “In the morning, when it was light ...”? Is this like the opening up of another day now in the history of the saints, where they are going to be bound together as never before?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
R.M.Y. It would seem that the position they found themselves in was one where no human wit nor wisdom could extricate them. It is as if they were, so to speak, in a cleft stick, were they not?
A.J.G. So that Judah acknowledges it. He says, indeed, “What shall we say to my lord? what shall we speak, and how justify ourselves? God has found out the iniquity of thy servants”, Gen 44: 16. Looking at the matter naturally, you might say that they might quite reasonably protest that they had not stolen the cup—not one of them had stolen it—but there is not a word of that. He says, “God has found out the iniquity of thy servants”. It shows the full result of the skill of Joseph’s dealings.
A.C.S.P. In fact, they had stolen a son.
A.J.G. Exactly, they had.
R.M.Y. I wondered if the Lord in His wisdom does not bring us to that point where we simply cannot answer, where all our speaking is vain, and the only thing we can do is really just to open up the depths of our souls to His searching eyes, and let Him provide the answer.
A.J.G. It is a very remarkable thing that all the sacks were opened up, and he searched carefully, beginning at Reuben, right down to Benjamin. So that the whole matter was naked and open to the eyes of him with whom they had to do, and they are made conscious of that.
F.J.D. Is there a touch of grace in what it says, “and he was still there”, v 14?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so—still available to them. How wonderfully the Lord waits upon us, until we have really reached the end that He has in mind!
A.H. In verse 18 of chapter 44, Judah’s word in very affecting, is it not? He says, “thou art even as Pharaoh”. And then he goes on to show what effect Joseph’s word had had upon him: “My lord asked his servants, saying, Have ye a father, or a brother?”
A.J.G. He goes over the whole history, as though he is tracing the way that they have been brought to the acknowledgement of the truth.
E.S. Is he beginning to arrive, in that verse, at what he is after, in connection with the father and the brother?
A.J.G. I think so. Those were the two great points of guilt with the brethren, their callous hatred of their brother, and their utter disregard of their father’s feelings. And now Judah comes forward as one who is prepared to sacrifice himself, and lay down his life, for his brother, and in consideration for his father. But now it says, “Joseph could not control himself before all them that stood by him”, Gen 45: 1. It is striking how, as soon as they have come to that point—because I think we may rightly regard Judah as representative of them all—Joseph says, “now, be not grieved, and be not angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither”. It is not a question of grieving over all that is discovered, all that we discover in ourselves. If it is all out before God, and repudiated in His sight, in the light of the cross of Christ, then we are entitled to leave it, and to recognise that God sent Christ before us that we might live, to preserve life. God’s thought for us is that we should be set up in life in Christ.
A.H. I think we need real help and establishment in that. Where repentance has come in, according to God, as you were referring to it earlier in 2 Corinthians 7, the matter is completely cleared, is it not?
A.J.G. Quite so. There is sometimes a tendency with us to go part of the way, and not all the way, because we are just seeking to maintain a certain measure of self-esteem. If only we would go just all the way, and let all the truth come out, then we come into the full gain of all that Christ’s cross involves for us, and into the full light of all that He is as Man in the presence of God, and we ourselves before God in Him.
F.W.B. Does Paul go all the way in 1 Timothy 1: 13, where he refers to himself as “a blasphemer and persecutor, and an insolent overbearing man”? But then he speaks of the grace of our Lord surpassingly over-abounding, and says, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”.
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. He is going all the way there, very definitely.
J.McM. I believe our brother was thinking—and I would be with him in that thinking—that if there is evidence that the person has come to the end of the matter before God, we should remember what you are saying, that God has met the position in the Man that was sent before him, so that we could not on that line withhold forgiveness, could we?
A.J.G. No, exactly. We are to forgive “as God also in Christ has forgiven” us (Eph 4: 32), and you cannot place any limitation on that.
A.C.S.P. Does the expression “a great deliverance” (v 7) help in that connection, as showing the extent of the work that has come in to meet every matter from beginning to end?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. “So God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance”.
W.B.H. Do you think that in that word, “God sent me before you to preserve life”, there is almost a touch of what John brings forward as to the sent One, and the great matter of life, eternal life?
A.J.G. Yes, I would think so.
J.McK. Is it instructive how quickly Joseph passes on to the thought of maintaining his brethren, near to him, not only forgiving them, but setting them up in power, and maintaining them? It is a good word, maintaining them, is it not?
A.J.G. A very good word. That was what David said to Barzillai, if you remember, that he would maintain him in Jerusalem.
J.McK. Do you think the very status of Joseph in Egypt, as the administrator, would now determine their status?
A.J.G. Quite so. And all the wealth that he had under his hand would be available for their maintenance.
W.B.H. And would the thought of preservation and maintenance have in mind our being available to God? Is that the thought?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. The Lord is always considering for God. I think it is well for us to keep that in mind, that the Lord is always considering for God, and therefore, as He brings us under His own influence, we also shall learn to consider for God.
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