SOME OF THE SALIENT FEATURES IN THE HISTORY OF JOSEPH
MEETINGS IN EALING
16th-18th MAY 1959
(SATURDAY TO MONDAY)
Reading 1—Saturday morning
A.J.G. I thought that in the readings that are before us we might, with the Lord’s help, look at some of the salient features in the history of Joseph. As we know, he represents Christ as great among the nations when rejected by his earthly brethren. That places the matter dispensationally in its right setting, and points therefore to our day, and to the great thoughts regarding Christ and the assembly which are being brought to pass in this our day, and especially the mystery—that is, the assembly as Christ’s body—so that all that Christ is as Man, under God’s eye for His pleasure, might be reproduced and presented livingly before God in Christ’s body, the assembly. It is a wonderful conception of divine grace and wisdom, involving that the saints are together, together in love, and it is a great tribute to the influence of Christ if this is brought about, as God intends it should be bought about, and I think we can say in measure it is already seen in expression among the saints, but it is that which the enemy is opposed to. Joseph’s history will help us, I think, in relation to the way that God’s thoughts regarding the assembly as the body of Christ are to be realised at the present time. The history fits in a good deal with the epistle to the Colossians, and we know that the apostle in that epistle makes much of the great exercise—combat, he calls it, that he had himself, that the saints might be thoroughly together in love, and able to apprehend the mystery of God, “in which”, he says, “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Col 2: 3. And then at the end he speaks of Epaphras, a local brother, a Colossian brother, who laboured earnestly for them—combating, indeed, he uses the same word—that they might stand “perfect and complete in all the will of God”, Col 4: 12. I thought we might have these things in our mind in taking up the history. Joseph is presented at the outset as particularly beloved by his father, and, of course, rightly beloved, and because he was so signally loved, as rightly so, he became exposed to the jealousy of his brethren. But light comes in from God in relation to his dreams, and in chapter 40 we have further light in relation to the dreams that the butler and the baker had, and in chapter 41 we have further light still in relation to the dreams that Pharaoh had. So that God is giving light by means of these dreams.
N.F.A. Is there any special significance in the reason given for Jacob loving Joseph? It says, “Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was a son of his old age”, Gen 37: 3. What would that point to in the anti-type?
A.J.G. It seems as though it is one who comes into view after there had been a setting out of the characteristics of the earlier sons. So that it was some time after the history of man in the world had been going on, and all the features of that man had come into evidence, that Christ was introduced. So I think it points to the Lord having come in some considerable time after the history of man had appeared on the earth, showing what that man was, and presenting by contrast all that was loveable to the heart of God. So that it says in Colossians 1: 13, that God “has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love”, pointing out how loved, how beloved of the Father, Jesus is. I think we can see that the system of glory to which we are called, which takes all its character from Christ, is a system of delightful pleasure to the Father, and we are brought into it, as brought in in Christ.
A.C.S.P. I was going to ask whether the voice from heaven that called attention to Jesus, as Matthew 3: 17 records it, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight”, might bear on what you are saying.
A.J.G. I am sure it does—I was thinking of that, I think it is very interesting to think of the history of four thousand years that had gone by before the Lord appeared on earth, and all the different features of mankind that had come into evidence during that period, and then Jesus is introduced, and the result, as you say, is that there is the voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight”.
W.McK. Would that help in regard to the distinction between Isaac and Joseph? Isaac is also beloved of the father, viewed from a different standpoint, is he?
A.J.G. I think so. I think Joseph comes in in contrast to the history of other men, and is drawn attention to in the fact that he was tending his father’s sheep with the sons of Bilhah and Zilpah, and he “brought to his father an evil report of them”, Gen 37: 2. That is, he stands out as delightful to his father in the presence of the surrounding evil.
J.McK. Do you think Joseph is one through whom the counsels and operations of the Father are greatly extended? Reference has been made to Isaac, and that connects more with what is personal, but in Joseph divine counsels begin to take shape, extending to his dominion, and to all that God is about to do in Egypt.
A.J.G. I am sure that is so, and I think that the second dream points to very wide dominion and glory. “The sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to me”. It is really like the epistle to the Ephesians, where Christ is set in a place far above “every principality … and power and dominion, and every name named” (Eph 1: 21), and so on. It is the wonderful place of exaltation and universal dominion which is given to Christ, according to Ephesians.
R.M.Y. Do you feel that in that way Joseph is really typically the answer to all the disaster of the whole of the book?
A.J.G. Yes, I would think so. And I think we need to be helped to keep in mind the great mystery of the body of Christ. It is one thing to see the Lord personally as worthy of a place of great exaltation, morally worthy of it, as well as personally entitled to it, but then it is a wonderful thing to think that God purposed to have the assembly, His body, a vessel in which all that He is morally in Manhood can be expanded, and presented under God’s eye for His pleasure for ever, and that we have been taken up for nothing less than that.
R.M.Y. Are you thinking particularly of the verse in Colossians: “Christ in you the hope of glory”, Col 1: 27?
A.J.G. That enters into it, I think, although I am not sure whether that is exactly a subjective thought. I think it is more an objective thought, because it is “Christ in you the hope of glory”—it is hope—but still I would not be dogmatic about it. But I think we can see that the whole thought in Colossians is that Christ is reproduced in His saints, in His body. So that you have: “Christ is everything, and in all” (Col 3: 11); and then you have the peace of Christ presiding in our hearts (Col 3: 15), and so on, Christ giving character to the whole position in many ways. And we also have the remarkable expression in Colossians 1: 18, that He is “the beginning, firstborn from among the dead”, so that really it is in connection with Christ in resurrection that the thoughts of God begin to be unfolded.
R.M.Y. Are you thinking that in the bearing particularly of those two dreams? They do not exactly suggest death, except in the cutting of the sheaves I suppose.
A.J.G. I was thinking of the first dream especially. He says, “my sheaf rose up, and remained standing”. That is the energy of life; it is really the energy of life that could not be holden of death, and is seen in Christ in resurrection, and then in the saints themselves as deriving from Him and living in His life. So that it is not only Christ personally, but Joseph’s sheaf, I think, extends to the thought of Christ’s body, and the saints composing it standing up here in life. What do you think?
R.M.Y. It is a very interesting suggestion. “Binding sheaves”, it says, does it not? “We were binding sheaves in the fields, and lo, my sheaf rose up, and remained standing”. It is a sheaf that is bound, involving the saints, as you suggest.
A.J.G. Involving the saints as thoroughly together, but standing up in life and victory. “Christ … who is our life”, it says in Colossians 3: 4. There are other sheaves; it says, “Your sheaves came round about and bowed down to my sheaf”. That is, the superiority of Joseph’s sheaf is manifest to all.
A.C.S.P. Does the use of the plural, in ‘sheaves’ and ‘fields’, all serve to emphasise the uniqueness of “My sheaf”?
A.J.G. I think it does. It is just a question whether this is not already being worked out in the world at the present time, and whether the Lord has not got His body here, the saints composing it standing up in life and victory over the world, and complete superiority to every other organisation or binding together of men in the world. They are set together in life and in love, and the reality of their victory is apparent.
F.W.B. Would the verse in Colossians 2: 10, “Ye are complete in him”, confirm that?
A.J.G. Say a little more, please, as to your line of thought?
F.W.B. I was thinking of the verse, “In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and ye are complete”—or ‘filled full’—“in him”. That is to say, we derive from Him.
A.J.G. That is so, we do derive from Him—“Christ … who is our life” (Col 3: 4), it says. The saints stand up here in the life of Christ, and are not overcome. But it is a sheaf bound together, involving the saints together in love, so that that was what Paul was concerned about. At the beginning of the second chapter of Colossians, he says, “I would have you know what combat I have for you, and those in Laodicea,” and so on, “to the end that their hearts may be encouraged, being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God”. It seems to be a first essential that the saints should be united together in love. I think we shall see as we proceed, if the Lord helps us, that when we come to the part of the history that deals with Joseph’s relations with his brethren, he has in mind that they should come to judge everything that is opposed to their being thoroughly one in love. If we are to touch the mystery, we must have moral questions solved, and we must be together in love. And, then I think we shall find that Joseph’s dealings with his father have in mind that we should be delivered from finding our life in what is natural, so as to move over into what is spiritual. There is the skill of Joseph’s dealings with his brethren and with his father. But before that we have these chapters 37-41.
A.H. This suggestion as to the saints being bound together in love would work out ultimately in their surrounding Christ and giving Him the first place, would it not? “Your sheaves came round about and bowed down to my sheaf”. Is it in that way that Christ becomes supreme?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. There are a good many sheaves all round about us in Christendom, but where is the one that stands up in life and victory over the world—stands up and remains standing? It is only those who are really held in affection to Christ, and therefore affection to one another, and who stand up in His life, in whom this is seen.
W.F.F. Would you say that the one reference in Colossians to the Spirit,—“who has also manifested to us your love in the Spirit” (Col 1: 8), the binding power would be a help as to this matter of the saints being bound together in love?
A.J.G. I think I would: “your love in the Spirit”.
E.S. The word “together” comes in the first chapter of Colossians: “all things subsist together by him” (v 17), and then there is your reference to being “united together in love” (Col 2: 2). Is one objective and the other subjective?
A.J.G. It shows that the Lord is the great binding power in the universe—“all things subsist together by him”—and then the saints are united together. It is a wonderful thing, in the presence of all the disintegration that sin has brought in, and dislocation, that God at the present time is working in the saints of this dispensation to produce in them something which is a witness to the binding together power and influence of Christ. Those who compose the assembly may number millions, and yet they will all be held together under the wonderful influence of Christ.
F.W.K. Does the word standing up suggest a position taken up immutably? I think the meaning of the word is ‘stationed itself’, as if a definite position is taken up. “My sheaf rose up, and remained standing”.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. It seems to me a very stimulating thought to have in mind that, in the presence of all that exists in Christendom, whether the religious world, or the political or social world, and the way men are bound together in various associations, religious or otherwise, that there is just one sheaf that stands up and remains standing, and that is the sheaf that stands in relation to Christ, to whom Christ is life. It is a great thing to have part in it, but then if there is any failure to be united together in love the position is spoiled, and hence the enemy’s effort to get in all the time, bringing in something that would disrupt, but if we see the divine thought I think we shall be concerned that it should be expressed and maintained.
J.W.G. Is there any link with Revelation 3, in the loveability of the saints, and then the bowing down in the recognition of the Philadelphian character? I was thinking of the opening of the passage in Genesis 37, as to Joseph being loved, and wondering whether that loveability is not really extended in Philadelphia, representing the whole assembly distinctively as loveable.
A.J.G. I think that is right. It is remarkable that immediately following on Philadelphia we have Laodicea, which was one of the places which Paul links with Colosse in his address to the Colossians, and one of the places that Epaphras was able to carry in his exercises, but, alas, the history shows that Laodicea entirely failed of the divine thought.
A.C.S.P. Does the stress on the personal attractiveness and loveableness of Christ, in Joseph, coming in before the thought of the binding of the sheaves, provide a kind of basis for us being together, that we should dwell upon matter on which we are thoroughly united?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. You mean that there is a bond of union in the saints’ appreciation of Christ?
A.C.S.P. I wondered if the Father would draw us into the current of His own thoughts about the Son of His love, as a great basis for us getting on well together.
A.J.G. I am sure that would help greatly.
A.H-e. There is nothing reluctant in relation to the Father’s thoughts of the Son, is there? There is reluctance on the part of Joseph’s brethren in taking up their appropriate place in relation to himself.
A.J.G. No, there is no reluctance on the part of the Father. I think it is a beautiful thing to take account of the system of glory that faith can apprehend, that it is a great system of which the Father is the Head, and Christ as the beloved Son is the Centre, and then everything is gathered up in Christ, first supremely in His body, the assembly, in which all that He is as delightful to God is expanded, and then every family coming in in its place, so that the whole system is a great system which is characterised by the Father’s love resting upon the Son, and the Son giving character to the whole system and holding it for the Father’s pleasure.
A.H. In that way, do these chapters peculiarly link also with John’s ministry, as securing the material for the assembly for Paul?
A.J.G. Yes, I would say so.
R.M.Y. This picture here is not an adverse one; the whole dream suggests a universe brought into accord, would you think? While one sheaf has certain pre-eminence, the other sheaves were doing what was right, were they not, in bowing down to his sheaf?
A.J.G. Yes. The pre-eminence of Joseph aroused jealousy and envy on the part of his brethren at first, but that all had to be overcome, and it was overcome.
M.D.S. Have you anything to say about the coat of many colours that the father put upon the son? It says later on that that was the thing that the brethren stripped him of it.
A.J.G. Yes. It is a sorrowful thing that at the end of this chapter we get that coat referred to. It says first of all, in verse 31 that they stripped Joseph of his vest, the vest of many colours, which he had on, and then in verse 31 it says, “they took Joseph’s vest, and slaughtered a buck of the goats, and dipped vest in the blood”. So that it brings in the blood. It is a solemn reminder that One of such glory—such varied glories—has had to go into death in order that the thoughts of God might be brought in. We get it referred to in Colossians 1, that the intention is to reconcile all things to the fulness, “having made peace by the blood of his cross”, Col 1: 20. I had wondered whether the vest of many colours might possibly allude to the varied glories which are set before us in the first chapter of Colossians. And One with such glories has been into death, in order that reconciliation might be brought in for the pleasure of God, and a basis laid for the establishment of His purpose.
F.W.K. Would the stripping suggest the spirit of antichrist working?
A.J.G. I suppose it would, yes.
N.F.A. So that the truth as to the Person of Christ is the great test in everything.
A.J.G. It is the great test in everything. Publicly He has been stripped of His glory, and in Christendom He is being stripped of His glory, and yet at the same time it is maintained in the hearts of those who love Him, and in a sense the glory is all the greater because He has been into death; the vest, so to speak, has been dipped in blood.
J.McM. Would all that be a lever in our souls to take on in measure the spirit of Paul? He says, “Now, I rejoice in sufferings for you” (Col 1: 24), and so on. It would make us ready to suffer that these choice thoughts might come into expression amongst the saints.
A.J.G. I am sure that is right. The way the apostle enlarges on suffering, and combat, in Colossians is very marked, because the Colossian saints were well on in the truth, but they were in danger of being turned aside by what was of the mind of man, and not finding their all in Christ.
G.P. Would there be any significance in the way the sheaves had to be cut down? I was wondering whether that would correspond with the truth we have in Colossians of circumcision and baptism, before we are identified as risen with Christ.
A.J.G. Yes, I think that all enters into it. These were sheaves that were bound together; they were bundles, you might say—sheaves. “We were binding sheaves in the fields”, it says, and there is just one sheaf that stands up and remains standing.
J.McM. Would that be in evidence in Colosse, in Paul referring to “rejoicing and seeing your order, and the firmness of your faith in Christ”, Col 2: 5?
A.J.G. Yes, they were standing up, you might say. The enemy was trying to spoil, but still at the same time, at the time when he wrote to them, at any rate—they were standing up, and remaining standing.
F.W.B. You referred to Epaphras, and it says of him as to his prayers that the saints might stand “perfect and complete in all the will of God”, Col 4: 12. I was linking it with the matter of standing up.
A.J.G. Quite so—they were to stand perfect and complete. The question is how we can stand, and whether we can go on to the end, as maintained together in love, and sustained in the life of Christ. There is a very real testimony insofar as the saints are marked by this, in the presence of all that is around in the world.
W.McK. Is there some thought of first-fruits in the sheaves? I am thinking of the extent of the second dream. The first dream is more limited, but the quality is there as first-fruits.
A.J.G. I think that is right, because the saints of the assembly, who compose the body of Christ are in a sense first-fruits to God. All the other families will come in in their proper relation to Christ, but the assembly is really the first-fruits.
L.W.G. The bond in Colossians is the “bond of perfectness”, the result of features of Christ being put on by those who are elect of God, Col 3: 14.
A.J.G. Yes, the bond of perfectness is love, it says.
J.McM. On the testimonial side, would the saints assembling to partake of the Lord’s supper, and in that way announcing His death till He come, suggest what they are as standing up? And then His coming really involves the appearing in the full sense, does it not? He will then take up His rights publicly, and every other will bow to Him.
A.J.G. Yes, I would say that. The saints assembling to remember the Lord is a very important matter, but what is so essential is that we should be together, really together.
J.McM. There would be little point in putting our hands to the emblems if we were not together.
A.J.G. No, exactly.
R.H.S. Is there a fulness connected with the thought of being united together in love? It says, “unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding”, and then it says, “to the full knowledge of the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Col 2: 2, 3.
A.J.G. There seem to be very great thoughts connected with the assembly as the body of Christ, the mystery, but underlying or preceding it all is the necessity for the saints to be thoroughly together, “united together in love”; and insofar as that is, and then as we derive wisdom and understand from Christ, and not from the mind of men, there is something introduced and maintained in this world that is victorious, and which is a great testimony to Christ and to God.
F.W.K. Is it a foreshadowing of the earthly glory yet to be, whereas the second dream would also link on with the thought of heavenly glory?
A.J.G. Yes. I think the first dream links particularly with Colossians, and the second with Ephesians.
W.B.H. Would you say why this is alluded to in some way in Psalm 105? It says, “He sent a man before them: Joseph was sold for a bondman. They afflicted his feet with fetters; his soul came into irons; Until the time when what he said came about: the word of Jehovah tried him. The king sent and loosed him—the ruler of peoples—and let him go free. He made him lord of his house and ruler over all his possessions:” (Psalm 105: 17-21.)
A.J.G. That Psalm in a few verses covers a large part of the history of Joseph, and we can easily understand how Joseph would be greatly tested, as having the mind of God relating to himself, given to him by these dreams, and then to find himself hated of his brethren, cast into a pit, sold into Egypt, and then finally put into prison in Egypt. You can understand how the word of Jehovah which he got by means of the dreams would try him. How he would say to himself, Is it all nothing? or, Is it ever coming true? and so on. You can see how he would be tested, and how the moral features of dependence on God and waiting on God, and being maintained in faithfulness in every condition, would shine in the adverse circumstances in which he found himself.
W.B.H. And do you think that is just the reason why the Spirit of God has recorded that in the Psalm?
A.J.G. I think so.
A.H. Is that not a touching reference to the death of Christ? And in Colossians He is “firstborn from among the dead”, Col 1: 18. Is that not brought in to touch our affections, and then to help us as to what follows—“that he might have the first place in all things”?
A.J.G. Yes, it is. And the fact that He is “the beginning, firstborn from among the dead” is intended to impress us with the sense that everything that is going to abide for God’s pleasure begins with Christ in resurrection, and therefore is the other side of death, which means that we have to pass over from the natural order of things to the spiritual, in order to have part in it.
A.C.S.P. Does the three-fold reference to his brethren hating him show how native it is to the human heart, and how we must pass over from what is natural, and let the Spirit have His way with us, if we are going to think rightly of Christ and of His body?
A.J.G. It does, I am sure. We have to part company with ourselves.
W.J.S. There is no thought of interpretation in the first two dreams, is there? Immediately you come to chapter 46 you get interpretation suggested.
A.J.G. Yes. This was light given by God both to Joseph, and then, as passed on by him, to his brethren and to his father. In a sense, the general bearing of it did not need interpretation. The brethren quite understand what it means, and his father understands what the second dream means. It says, “his father kept the saying”. Although he rebuked Joseph, yet it says, “his father kept the saying”.
A.J.S. And Joseph himself carried them, did he not?
A.J.G. He did, quite so.
R.M.Y. It says, “they hated him yet the more for his dreams and for his words”. While the Lord gave the dreams, Joseph retailed them to his brethren, showing that he himself had accepted the import of them. He himself was giving out the matter, and it says, “his father kept the saying”. So that while those matters are light given by God, they have come to us through Christ, have they not?
A.J.G. They have, indeed. And Joseph was not vaunting himself or seeking his own glory by recounting the dreams; it was a question of light God had given to his brethren and to his father.
J.McK. Would it pre-figure the hostility towards Paul and his gospel?
A.J.G. I suppose it would.
W.McK. If Jacob had been rightly affected by the light contained in the dreams, would he not probably have been saved from the deception that come in through the brethren? When they bring the vest he says, “an evil beast has devoured him”, Gen 37: 33.
A.J.G. Quite so. If he had really received this dream as light from God, then his faith would have risen above the appearance that deceived him.
G.H.M. Does the idea of a dream indicate a secret which God has in mind, into which we come by the Spirit’s service? Interpretations have been spoken of, and interpretations belong to God. Do we not have the light by the Spirit, now?
A.J.G. We do. You do not expect to get light from God by dreams now, because the Spirit is here with us abidingly, and therefore God can communicate His mind direct.
A.H-e. Would Jacob’s attitude at the end of this section, to which you have referred, help us all as to treasuring what God gives, even if we cannot see it very clearly at the time? We would hold it in our minds and hearts, so that we may come into it, at any rate eventually.
A.J.G. That is an important matter. When the truth is being presented to us, and especially some feature of it that we have not had before, the danger is, if we do not understand it at once, of rejecting it, or discounting it in our minds. The important thing is, even though we do not understand it, to keep it in our minds, and, as we keep it in our minds in a subject spirit, we shall find it will develop among the brethren, and become confirmed to us. Is it not among the brethren that the truth is opened up to us largely?
A.H-e. That seems confirmed in the experience of the saints generally.
J.McM. You mean that divine light in a way would perhaps come through a distinctive lead, but the opening up and development of it amongst the saints as they enquire in the temple.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. And if I do not see it all at once, I must be careful not to reject it, but keep it. It will become confirmed to me as I go on.
D.S.H. Is that linked with the thought of the body? “Ye have been called in one body, and be thankful”, Col 3: 15.
A.J.G. Yes. The body is a very sensitive organism, by means of which we are intended to help one another. So that the more we are in touch with one another, in mutual confidence and affection, the more we can help one another in the truth.
F.W.K. Paul says, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding”, 2 Tim 2: 7. Would that be the two sides—a lead in Paul’s ministry, but the Lord giving understanding?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. And then, as was remarked just now, there is light in the temple, when the saints are together. And it is a very important matter to cultivate links with one another, so that we are really together—not simply physically so, as at the present time, but really together in mutual confidence and affection—because then you can speak over things simply, without any difficulty, and one can help another.
A.C.S.P. Would the seeing “after the welfare of thy brethren, and after the welfare of the flock” (Gen 37: 14), bear on that?
A.J.G. It would, indeed. Joseph was one that could be trusted. When his father says to him, “Come, that I may send thee to them”, he says, “Here am I”. “And he said to him, Go, I pray thee, see after the welfare of thy brethren ... And he sent him out of the vale of Hebron”. That is, all the activities of shepherd care and ministry that are going on among the saints really proceed from the purpose of God—the vale of Hebron—and they are all from that standpoint. Whatever they may be doing immediately, according to the needs of the saints, what is behind it all is the purpose of God, to which He is going to bring us.
G.H.M. So that in Acts 4: 32, the heart and soul of those that believed being one had its reaction upon the flock, did it not?
A.J.G. Yes, it did.
P.B.D. Is that why we get the oft allusion in these chapters, first of all many references to “his brethren”, and then the next matter is “thy brethren”, and finally “my brethren”? I wondered whether the purpose of God, to which you referred, is not really behind the whole matter. I was thinking of Romans 8: 29, “so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren”.
A.J.G. Yes. “I am seeking my brethren”, Gen 37: 16. What a touching word that is! And when they saw him, immediately their jealousy was stirred up, and they conspired against him to put him to death.
J.McK. Would that link on with Paul being minister of the assembly?
A.J.G. And how much he was hated as a consequence!
J.McK. “I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly”, Col 1: 24. Would that be warrant for linking the history of Joseph not only with Christ personally, but also with what followed in the history of the testimony, especially under Paul?
A.J.G. I think it would. And we need to bear in mind that the sufferings came upon Paul because his ministry was to us Gentiles. It was because his ministry was to the Gentiles, to bring them in, that he suffered such persecution from the Jews. It was really for our sake that he suffered all that.
A.H. In verse 2 the Spirit of God refers to Joseph “with his brethren” and then goes on to speak of his doing service “with the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah, his father’s wives. And Joseph brought to his father an evil report of them”. And then there are those further references that have been spoken of. He never seems to let them slip out of his affections, does he? He holds them as his brethren. Is that a great matter for us, in seeking to work out the truth together?
A.J.G. It is a great matter. And, if the Lord helps us, we shall see later on with what feeling, combined with skill, Joseph deals with his brethren, until he has got them all right. That is what he had in mind, and that is what the Lord has in mind with us all now. He would get us all right, thoroughly knit together in love, and “unto all riches of the full assurance, of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery”, Col 2: 2.
A.A.G. Is it significant that the apostle addresses the Corinthians, towards the end of both epistles, as brethren, in spite of the severe way he has to deal with them earlier?
A.J.G. That is quite a feature of the Corinthian epistles, the way those expressions of feeling and affection on the part of the apostle come out, in spite of the conditions.
E.S. And Colossians commences with Paul’s salutation to “the holy and faithful brethren” in Colosse. Would the dream give us that thought, that we should never lose the great positive thought before God—what they are—but the working out of it may involve painful exercises?
A.J.G. Quite so. Now in chapter 40 I think we get the truth of reconciliation, which God brings in, in order that He may be free, so to speak, to open up His purposes. I think Mr James Taylor said years ago10 that reconciliation is really the link between the side of our responsible history and the side of the purpose of God. That is, it is that which meets the breakdown in relation to the history of man, and secures those who were involved in it, in view of the purpose of God. And so here, after chapter 39, which we have not read, in which the perfection of Joseph and his prosperity in every circumstance shines out, in chapter 40 we have two men who have sinned. That is to say, the whole truth is being set out now in the butler and the baker, and the lines on which the thoughts of God in grace can be established.
J.McK. Would the grapes pressed into Pharaoh’s cup give us some idea of the full result of reconciliation? I was thinking of what it would afford Godward.
A.J.G. Quite so. What pleasure it affords to God to have the saints retained before Him in Christ, and yet nothing has been overlooked, nothing has been neglected! The death of Christ has met every moral question that was raised, and He retains us before Him in the Man of His pleasure. So that when God spoke to the butler first of all, he saw a vine. When he recounts his dream, he says, “behold, a vine was before me”. He did not say, ‘a butler was before me’. God was not speaking to the butler about the butler, He was speaking to the butler about Christ. “A vine was before me”. That is, He is the answer to all the breakdown that has occurred in connection with the history of the first man, and God would bring Christ before us, in the delight that He finds in Him. And then the butler pressing the grapes into Pharaoh’s cup might be an allusion to the death of Christ, caused by us, necessitated by us. But then, as has been said, there is the resultant pleasure for God in it.
J.McK. I was thinking of the fruitfulness presented Godward.
A.J.G. Yes.
J.McM. So that the reference to “itself” in Colossians 1 is very important, in that way, as confirming what you are saying: “to reconcile all things to itself” (Col 1: 20)—that is, the fulness. And then it goes on to say, “And you ... has it reconciled”, v 2l.
A.J.G. Yes, I was going to point that out. He reconciled “all things to itself”—that is, the fulness—“having made peace by the blood of his cross”. But then as regards ourselves, we are already reconciled “in the body of his flesh through death”. Death is presented there as that in which the removal of the man that was offensive to God has taken place, that we might be retained before God in the Man of His pleasure. And the Spirit of God goes to great pains to point out in typical language what Jesus is, and has been, under the eye of God—a vine. “It was as though it budded: its blossoms shot forth, its clusters ripened into grapes”, Gen 40: 10. It is like Luke’s presentation of Christ, as a Babe, and then as a boy of twelve, and then in perfect full-grown Manhood—what was delightful to God in every stage of human life.
J.McK. This matter of reconciliation being connected with the bringing in of the Gentiles, would it tend to bring in a greater range of glory? It is not Joseph’s brethren here but presumably a Gentile. I was wondering whether there is not some answer to the coat of many colours and the far-reaching character of his glory.
A.J.G. I think there is. I think in these chapters, up to and including chapter 41, we have a suggestion, as far as I understand it, of the wide range of blessing that comes in in Christ, embracing the Gentiles, and particularly the assembly. And then later on, viewing it dispensationally is a question of His dealings with Israel in a coming day. At the same time, his dealings with his brethren and with his father are of a great value in regard of the Lord’s personal dealings with us now, to settle moral questions for us, and to carry us over in our thoughts from what is natural to what is spiritual.
J.McK. I was just thinking of the rejection of Christ by His brethren being the means of a greater outshining of glory among the Gentiles.
A.J.G. Yes, indeed, and that is where we come in. And we come into a greater and more blessed portion in the assembly than Israel will ever have.
R.M.Y. Is there any significance in the fact that the day when these dreams were both fulfilled was Pharaoh’s birthday?
A.J.G. I would like to know what you think about that.
R.M.Y. I was thinking of what you have said as to reconciliation. The butler would find himself restored in a day of great joy and gladness. It would be a festive day, would it not? That is, he has come back in a sense to something he never touched before.
A.J.G. Exactly. And that is really where we are now, through grace. We are brought into blessing that we never had any right or title to at all.
A.H. I think your reference to verse 10 is of the utmost importance. If we are to come into the gain of this matter of reconciliation, do you not think it is essential that not the man that offended but Christ personally should engage us? The man that offended is also seen, is he not, in “three baskets ... were on my head”? That is not “a vine was before me”, is it?
A.J.G. No, you can see the difference. The baker sets out the other side of the truth that we have to accept unreservedly, that the man that was offensive to God has been condemned, and set aside. And so in connection with the baker it is a question of his head, and that was the trouble in Colossians—philosophy and vain deceit—but all that has got to be crucified, and has been crucified before God, and we have to accept it unreservedly. But then, on the other hand, we are retained before God for His pleasure, in the Man that grew up before Him, so that the figure can be used of budding, and blossoms blooming forth, and then full ripe grapes—“its clusters ripened into grapes”. It is really the gospel of Luke, depicting the perfection of Jesus in Manhood under God’s eye, in every stage of human life.
H.W.S. Do you think that the crown of all this is seen in the Lord’s prayer in John 17? I was thinking of those who should believe on Him through their word, and then “that they may be all one” (v 2l), and “that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”, v 26.
A.J.G. I think it is significant how much the Lord had in His heart that we who have believed through the apostles’ testimony should be one. He seems to attach great importance to the oneness of the saints. In fact, there are two great features in that prayer: first sanctification, and then unity or oneness—two most essential features in relation to the testimony.
S.D.K.R. It says, “its clusters ripened into grapes”, Gen 40: 10. What is the significance of that?
A.J.G. There may be an allusion possibly to the assemblies as well, as deriving from Christ. It is a remarkable thing that the vine, which at one time referred to Israel, according to Isaiah 5, and which the Lord takes up in John 15—“I am the true vine”—should be a plant the fruit of which takes form in clusters. That is very striking. There is nothing else quite like it, and it seems, to me to speak of the saints all over the world, in the local companies, all taking character from Christ, and deriving life from Him. And that is the testimony. It is not simply Christ personally, but the assemblies all over the world, in unity and fruitfulness.
W.B.H. Is it striking that the Lord’s last word in Revelation has that in mind—“I Jesus have sent mine angel ...”, Rev 22: 16.
A.J.G. To “testify these things to you in the assemblies”. He speaks of the assemblies in the plural, because it is a question of the thing being seen in actual expression.
A.C.S.P. So that the clusters of grapes would speak of the results of life under the influence of divinely provided conditions, whereas the baker speaks about things that the baker makes.
A.J.G. Exactly. The two dreams are a very great contrast. The one is just man, and what he does, and his head, and so on, and all that has to be rejected, and it has been rejected in the cross of Christ. But on the other hand there is the Man of God’s delight, and the fruit of it is seen in local assemblies, living in His life, deriving everything from Him, as the grapes derives everything from the vine, but it is seen in life and fruitfulness and unity and beauty.
A.C.S.P. And in one sense it is not a result of effort at all, is it?
A.J.G. No, exactly.
W.F.F. What do you see in the fact that the cup was given into Pharaoh’s hand?
A.J.G. All is to contribute to the pleasure of God—that is what we are to do. Indeed, even as creatures that is what is in mind: “for thy will they were, and they have been created”, Rev 4: 11. And certainly in a much greater way now the saints as of the assembly are to minister to the pleasure of God. The butler failed in his responsibility, but he is set up again now in pure grace. You can understand how he would fill out his duties, his responsibility, with a deep sense of grace now. He has utterly forfeited everything on the line of responsibility but was set up again in pure grace; you might say, in the life and favour of another Man.
C.J.B.S. Would the butler’s dream link on with the teaching of Romans 5 as to reconciliation? Reconciliation being based on the death of God’s Son then “ye shall be saved in the power of his life”, Rom 5: 10.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. Reconciliation is presented as something that we receive. We do not work up to it, it is given to us; it is one of the blessings of the gospel.
W.McK. You connected the vine with Luke’s gospel. I wondered whether you would say a little in regard to the peculiar character of the sufferings of the Lord Jesus in that gospel. They are not exactly the atoning sufferings, are they? It is in view of others being brought into the matter.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. I would be glad if you would say a little more, because you have something in your mind.
W.McK. I was thinking of the mount of Olives. It is not Gethsemane in Luke, but the mount of Olives, and the word ‘conflict’ is brought in—the word that is brought in in Colossians, in regard to the Lord’s same sufferings at the mount of Olives.
A.J.G. Quite so, and in a sense you might say Paul partakes in a similar kind of suffering, in his combat for the saints.
W.McK. That is what I was thinking.
H.A.H. Is there a way in which we practically bring the Lord out of “the prison house”?
A.J.G. I think we do as we make mention of Him, and especially at the breaking of bread, and in the assertion of His rights.
H.A.H. I was thinking of His liberty and room of movement.
A.J.G. Yes, He has movement among the saints, certainly.
C.J.H.D. Is there some suggestion at the end of Luke’s gospel of the cluster that the Lord leaves behind? I was thinking of the expression in Isaiah 65: 8, “As the new wine is found in the cluster, and it is said, Destroy it not, for a blessing is in it”. The saints as together in the temple were praising and blessing God. Might that not be the new wine found in the cluster?
A.J.G. I think it would be. I was thinking of the end of Luke’s gospel—how “as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven. And they having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy”, Luke 24: 51, 52. I think you see there saints in the joy of reconciliation. They know they are taken into favour in the One who has been carried up into heaven, and it fills their hearts with joy,
C.J.H.D. And that is not going to be destroyed, even if it is found in a city of murderers, and so the gospel can be preached first to Jerusalem.
A.J.G. Exactly, yes.
J.McK. So that the great end is God and men.
A.J.G. God and men, and the pleasure of God in men.
J.McK. In our previous chapter it was more the Father, and sons in relation, but now it is God and men, as the fruit of reconciliation, is it?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
A.C.S.P. Do we need at times to stress the fact that it does go well with us?
A.J.G. I am sure we do, but you have something in mind.
A.C.S.P. I was only thinking that we sometimes think that nearly everything is going wrong with us, instead of really taking in the great thoughts of God, and doing God the honour, and giving Him the response that ought to flow from persons for whom He has made things to go so well.
A.J.G. And hence it is of great importance that we should be concerned, that, by the Lord’s grace, and in the Spirit’s power, we should really fill out what is proper to the assembly, both in her relation with Christ, and in her relations with the Father, and in the full thought of the service of God. So that at least once a week we can be free from the conflict and the exercises and the difficulties, and really be in joy before God; and then in the rest of the week we must expect conflict, because we are in the scene of Christ’s rejection, and we are in some degree, identified with the truth that Satan is opposing.
A.J.C. What do you think came in, that the cup-bearer forgot Joseph?
A.J.G. So much occupied with his own blessing, that he forgot the blesser, which is a danger with us sometimes, do you not think?
A.J.C. I am sure it is, yes.
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