Reading 2—Saturday afternoon
Reading 2—Saturday afternoon
A.J.G. There is much that enters into this chapter which clearly points to the present time, for we have the assembly coming in in type in Asnath, Joseph’s wife; and, then we have the assembly from another point of view brought in in the two sons born to Joseph, and what they were to him; and we have, of course, the great subject of the administration of food, and it is a very great matter to see how the present administration of food takes form. There have been the seven years of plenty, referring, I suppose, specially to the ministry of the Lord Himself, and the ministry of the apostles, in which the whole truth has come out, but then the present time particularly is a time in which food has been gathered up and is being dispensed under the hand of Christ. It is striking that, although Joseph is appointed by Pharaoh to be the great administrator of Egypt, so that he says, “without thee shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt” (Gen 41: 44), and obviously what was specially in mind was the administration of the food, yet he does not enter upon his administration until he has his wife. And that is an important matter, that the assembly as known by us at the present time is the means by which the Lord will administer food. The cities also come into it, of course—an important element—but it is a striking thing that, while he is marked out for the position of control and administration in Egypt, he does not enter upon it until Asnath is given to him. It is really only where the truth of the assembly is recognised that there is any administration of food. I am inclined to think that Asnath points to the assembly as reached on moral lines; that is to say, according to the lines of 2 Timothy 2, withdrawing from iniquity, and following righteousness and faith and love and peace; because wherever Asnath is mentioned, she is spoken of as a priest’s daughter. She is never mentioned at all without it being said that she was the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On, and it seems to me to point to her being a type of the assembly as we know it through God’s grace now—the assembly as actually reached on lines of considering for God, which a priest stands for, according to 2 Timothy 2. And where that is so, then you can have the administration of food, and only there.
W.McK. In verse 45 it says, “And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphnath-paaneah, and gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On”. Is there anything in the fact that it does not say that he took her but that Pharaoh gave Asnath to him?
A.J.G. That is striking. It is as though it is a divine provision, speaking carefully, for the Lord, in view of the administration of food. Was that what you had in mind?
W.McK. Yes, I was thinking of that. It is as if that was in the divine mind in relation to the administration.
A.J.G. Of course, we can easily see that the Lord, being who He is, and being placed by God in the position of supreme administration, all power being given to Him in heaven and on earth, could easily dispense food in any way He pleased, but in actual fact He dispenses it by means of the assembly. And it is really only where the truth of the assembly is acknowledged, and followed up, that there is in fact food for the saints.
A.C.S.P. Would the reference in Proverbs 31: 14—“She is like the merchant ships: she bringeth her food from afar”—show how the assembly, in her wifely setting, is the means of bringing the food supply where it is needed?
A.J.G. I think that helps very much. She brings it from afar. That is to say, it is a suggestion of things being brought in by the Spirit. They are not brought in by human means, but at the same time it is she who does it; it is she who brings in the food and dispenses it.
C.J.H.D. Is it necessary also on our side that there should be sonship in view? The two sons are born before the famine comes. I was thinking of the imperilled truth as to sonship in Galatians, where Paul says, “Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him” (Gal 5: 4), if we go back into bondage which is contrary to sonship.
A.J.G. Yes, I think that helps. So there are sons born to Joseph, and evidently they were a great comfort to him, but still it is another view of the saints of the assembly, that they are sons. It is a great matter to have that in mind in all ministry, that God has nothing less for men—even in the glad tidings—than that they should be sons.
R.M.Y. Is it so that in the world to come the assembly will still be in this place, used in administration and dispensing food?
A.J.G. Yes, I suppose so. All that comes to men from God through Christ will be by means of the city, in the way of administration of blessing.
J.McK. Would the cities here stress the local aspect?
A.J.G. That is what I was thinking. Great importance seems to be laid on the cities, and how the food is laid up in the cities, and then that “Joseph opened every place in which there was provision”, Gen 41: 56. It clearly points, I think, first of all to the assembly reached actually, consciously, on priestly lines of considering for what is due to God, and then to that taking form, according to Paul’s teaching, in localities, where what there is from Christ amongst His saints is available to people around.
E.S. Is there any link with what we are saying, in the first chapter of Colossians, where the word ‘dispensation’ is used? Paul says, “the assembly; of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God” (Col 1: 25) and Mr Darby’s note refers to economy or administration, dispensation or stewardship. Is there any link in your mind with that?
A.J.G. It is evidently the same word, giving the idea or administration, which stewardship has in view, of course, though stewardship perhaps stresses the necessity for faithfulness in it, but it is a question of the dispensing of the mind of God, and the grace of God, in testimony, the dispensing of it to people around. But then it is a question of the means that God uses, and He particularly uses the assembly, as actually taking form in localities.
J.McK. So that the real supply of food would be dependent upon our place in the local assemblies. There is not much food apart from this, is there?
A.J.G. No, that is what I thought. As one has said, there is no limitation on the Lord’s side, He could dispense food freely, and in any way He pleased, and all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily—there is no restriction on His side—but in actual fact we know that there is no real spiritual food administered, save where the truth of the assembly is recognised.
J.McK. And would the food connect with the glory of Christ? I was thinking of Joseph as the great administrator. It is only in the light of the assembly that the greatness of Christ is so known, is it not?
A.J.G. Quite so. So that Colossians 1 says, “he is the head of the body, the assembly”, Col 1: 18. It is not there ‘His body’, but “the body”. It is the same vessel, of course, but He is the Head of “the body, the assembly”. It is as though that is one of the features of the glory of Christ, that He is the Head of the body.
J.McK. I was thinking that this food here was not merely to provide means for meeting an emergency, but would it link with the riches of glory of God’s grace?
A.J.G. I think it would. Our brother was earlier referring to Galatians, and the state of things that developed there, which really imperilled the whole truth of the gospel, but Paul says that God was pleased to reveal His Son in him—in Paul—“that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations”, Gal 1: 16. So that Paul in carrying the glad tidings to the nations, carried the full thought of God in regard of sonship, in his mind, and was evidently the expression of it himself, in the liberty that he had with God, and the dignity of his movements.
J.D. Would Paul at the very outset get an impression of this? He was told to go into the city, and later it says, “having received food, got strength”, Acts 9: 19. Then, following that, “he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God”.
A.J.G. That is very confirmatory. He was told to go into the city, and there he received food and was strengthened, and then he comes forth and preaches “Jesus that he is the Son of God”. That is a very interesting connection.
R.M.Y. Will you say a little more as to reaching the assembly on moral lines, and the link with 2 Timothy 2?
A.J.G. 2 Timothy 2, as we know, is the provision the Lord has made for days of departure from the truth, and so we have it that every one who names the Name of the Lord should withdraw from iniquity. Now that is a matter of what is moral. It is a question of good or evil. It is a question of considering for what is due to the Lord. It is really a priestly exercise. And then, having done that, you follow righteousness and faith and love and peace with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart, 2 Tim 2: 22. That is to say, while the exercise is taken up individually, it results in a movement collectively, a movement together, because you follow certain things with certain others, other who are marked by certain right moral features. Now if you have saints going on together, the only truth that can regulate their movements together is the truth of the assembly. And it is on those lines that we reach the assembly. We do not assume to be it, but we do in fact reach it.
R.M.Y. It has often been said that we go through the opened door of 2 Timothy into the privileges of 1 Corinthians.
A.J.G. Yes, that is so. Once you have saints moving together collectively, they must regulate themselves by the truth of the assembly, otherwise they are lawless. And therefore, though it be only two or three, as thus regulated, you have in principle what answers to the assembly, and all that is characteristic of the assembly may be known—that is, the headship of Christ, and the ministry of the Spirit—it may be known, if there are conditions of faith and dependence.
R.H.S. Would verse 40 of this chapter have a bearing on that? “Thou shalt be over my house, and according to thy commandment shall all my people regulate themselves”.
A.J.G. Yes, I think that is so. It seems to point to the idea of headship—not simply lordship, but headship.
Ques. Why do you say that?
A.J.G. It does bring in the idea of commandment, of course, which is more lordship, perhaps, but I thought the position that Pharaoh put Joseph in, and all his people having to regulate themselves by him, and then it saying “without thee shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt”, seems to bring in a touch of headship, because it is not there a question of commandment, but “without thee ...”, a matter of being in living touch with Joseph.
A.C.S.P. It speaks in verse 55 of the food not only being laid up in the cities, but kept. Is that an assembly feature that bears on what you are saying?
A.J.G. Yes. “Keep, by the Holy Spirit ... the good deposit entrusted”, 2 Tim 1: 14. The whole truth as opened up by Paul is really committed to us, and we are to keep it by the Holy Spirit.
A.C.S.P. So that the feature of the assembly as the pillar and base of the truth is still to be worked out, even in 2 Timothy days?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly. And I believe it is as walking in the truth, and proving the power of it, that we keep it.
W.McK. In regard to the importance of the food supply, in Acts 27 Paul stood up and it says, “while it was drawing on to daylight, Paul exhorted them all to partake of food, saying, Ye have passed the fourteenth day watching in expectation without taking food. Wherefore I exhort you to partake of food, for this has to do with your safety; for not a hair from the head of any one of you shall perish”, vv 33, 34. And then it says, “And, having said these things and taken a loaf, he gave thanks to God before all, and having broken it began to eat”. Do you think that Paul had in his mind the whole thought of the assembly in the loaf in those circumstances?
A.J.G. I should think so. In times of stress, or maybe conflict, it is very important not to neglect taking food. You have to contend for the truth, and there may be a great deal of concern, such as there was there with the storm raging outside them, but it is a most important thing not to neglect taking food.
C.J.B.S. In relation to the earlier part of the dream—the seven years of plenty—had you in mind that the Lord Jesus Himself is the food, as in John 6, where He says, “I am the living bread” John 6, or that He is the administrator of it?
A.J.G. He is the food Himself, of course, and I suppose the germ of all that subsequently came out by the apostles was there in the Lord Himself and in all His ministry. One would not be dogmatic, but I thought possibly the seven years of plenty would refer to what came in in the Lord’s own ministry and in the ministry of the apostles, including Paul, of course. There you have the seven years of plenty, a complete idea of wonderful plenteous provision. In a sense, I suppose the seven years of famine are upon us, because, while we know what it is to enjoy much wealth from the Spirit, at the same time all around is dearth, and increasing tendency to apostasy. That is to say, there is no real living food anywhere, save in the assembly.
W.B.H. What are we to understand by “the food of the fields of the city, which were round about it, he laid up in it”, Gen 41: 48?
A.J.G. The fields are areas of exercise. That is to say, it suggests food that we can obtain—not that we produce it, for it is God that gives the increase, but food that we can obtain through exercise—and it is all intended to contribute to what is in the city, to the wealth of the assembly.
J.McK. Would it be out of the way to ask you to say a word on what Joseph did in removing the people into the cities?
A.J.G. I suppose, looking at it literally for a moment, he would have in mind that the whole land was to be properly organised, with a view to the distribution of food. And I suppose we might say that the Lord would in principle direct the movements of His saints, so that they are available where the Lord would have them for the distribution of the food. Of course, we have to recognise that we are in days of great brokenness and smallness, so that things are only seen working out in the principle of them.
C.J.H.D. Would the years of plenty correspond, in Jude’s way of expressing the matter, with the time when the faith was once delivered to the saints, and we now have to contend earnestly in regard of it, Jude 3?
A.J.G. Yes, I would think so—“the faith” would be the whole thing “once delivered to the saints”. I think we could rightly say that it all came out in the ministry of Christ and the ministry of the apostles, including Paul, and that anything that we are enjoying now is just what had been lost to the assembly, through unfaithfulness on the part of the saints, and worldliness coming in, and which the Lord has graciously been recovering within the last hundred and twenty years.
F.W.K. Would that be involved in what John says in his epistle as to that which was “from the beginning”? He goes back to the beginning of things, speaking of the fellowship of the apostles, and then goes on to desire that the saints might have fellowship with them.
A.J.G. Yes, that was specially referring to the feature of life; “the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us”, 1 John 1: 2.
F.W.K. I wondered whether life was in view in this chapter in relation to the food supply.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
R.M.Y. In the dream of Pharaoh he saw no favourable outcome, did he? He saw everything devoured. Is that how the world sees it? All the plenty of the early apostolic days has been devoured in the breakdown and ruin of the Dark Ages.
A.J.G. Exactly. And it all is intended to bring into prominence the Man, that is, the Lord, the Holy and the True, who recovers everything, where there are the conditions suited.
A.H. In that connection, would you say something about the magnification of Christ typically here?
A.J.G. You mean the way Pharaoh gives Joseph his ring, and arrays him in clothes of byssus, and so on?
A.H. Yes. I wondered whether in this matter that we are speaking of, so vital to us in our several local settings, we should ever have steadily in mind the greatness of Christ as the administrator of it all.
A.J.G. Indeed, and that He is to be held in our minds and hearts’ affections in the honour that is due to Him, and then not only held in that way but obeyed. Because when they go to Pharaoh and ask him for bread, he says, “Go to Joseph: what he says to you, that do”, Gen 41: 55. If people refused to go to Joseph, or, after going to him, refused to do what he told them to do, they would be without bread.
A.H. So that, in that way, what you referred to earlier today is important—the bowing down to Joseph—and you get it again here, do you not?
A.J.G. You do. But I would like to ask our brother whether he had something more in mind in referring to the dispersal of the people throughout the land.
J.McK. I was only thinking of the importance of being not only in the light of a matter, but under assembly influence in our local setting.
A.J.G. I am sure that is important, and therefore that we do not take things into our own hand as to where we live, and that kind of thing, because the Lord would have us available under His hand, in view of what He would do, in the way of bringing others into the light of the assembly.
J.McK. Did not the matter of local assemblies come prominently to the fore under Paul’s ministry?
A.J.G. Very much so. It was, you might say, the economy of the assembly, if you could use that expression, that it should be set up in localities. And I think one can see divine wisdom in that, because, on the one hand, it means that the truth is within the reach of men generally—more or less every locality having some presentation of it—and, on the other hand, it preserves the testimony in outward smallness, in which God intends it should be preserved at the present time.
J.McK. So the gospel in its fulness would be to bring people into this.
A.J.G. It would.
J.McM. Would the ways of God with His people all be directed so that they might reach the point or the place in which He would have them? I was thinking of the times that God is referred to here,— “What God will do ...” (v 25), and, further down, “the thing is established by God, and God will hasten to do it”, v 32. Is it not a great thing for us to have in our souls, even when things may be weak in the locality, that God is committed to bring this great issue to a conclusion?
A.J.G. Yes, and the importance of our being with God in what He is doing; because we tend all of us to get occupied with our side of things, and what we are enjoying, and all that kind of thing, and we may have a relatively healthy state of things in the meeting, and things going on well, but then we must be like David, and look ahead, and want something better. When David had succeeded in bringing up the ark to the tent which he had pitched for it, and there was great joy and blessing from God, immediately he begins to think of something more; he begins to think about building a house of cedars.
A.H.A. Is that seen in the land not perishing, Gen 41: 56? Is Joseph considering for Pharaoh there?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
J.McK. So that would sonship be a sign of fruitfulness locally?
A.J.G. You mean the liberty the brethren have with God?
J.McK. Yes. Joseph says, “For God has made me forget all my toil”, Gen 41: 51. Is it not interesting that these two sons do not partake of famine conditions? They were born before the years of famine, and there was never any famine in Joseph’s house.
A.J.G. I am sure that is so, and I think we can say humbly that those who, through God’s grace, are in the light of the assembly, and are following it up, do not know famine conditions, but then they are all around us.
C.J.H.D. So the sons would develop as priests, and in the later chapter, to which our brother has referred, although the people are removed into the cities, the priests are undisturbed in their assigned portion from Pharaoh, and they do not have to sell their land, Gen 47: 22. Would that be sonship flowing out in priestly service Godward?
A.J.G. It seems to stress that what is in mind throughout is that God should be served. Their portion was not to be disturbed.
W.McK. With regard to the fields again, would it contain the idea that everything is under the influence of Christ, and the cities have a certain sphere of influence in the fields around them? Is that how the great food supply is made available to men?
A.J.G. Yes, I think that would be right.
W.McK. Is it really the influence of heaven working out through the local companies of the saints?
A.J.G. Quite so.
S.E.W. Would you say something about verses 37 and 38 of chapter 41?
A.J.G. “And the word was good in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes all his bondmen. And Pharaoh said to his bondmen, Shall we find one as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?” What are you thinking in that relation?
S.E.W. I wondered how you would apply it at the present moment.
A.J.G. It points to the distinction that attached to Joseph only, and all come to it. I think that is a feature of the epistle to the Colossians. The apostle was concerned that they should not come under the influence of philosophy and vain deceit, and he says, speaking of Christ, “in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”, Col 2: 9. You might say reverently, Shall we find such a one as this? That attaches to Christ only. It is a distinction that all the saints should recognise as entirely excluding every other mind or will.
A.C.S.P. Is it important therefore, if we do not understand what God has told us about what He is going to do—for, as our brother has pointed out, the dreams only end in disaster, yet we can be assured that He has His answer and He will bring it in in His own time, and therefore we can be restful?
A.J.G. I am sure of that. And He will bring it in in such a way as to exalt Christ, and no-one else. It is just where Christ is fully recognised food is available, to meet the need of souls, and to bring them into the light of what God has in mind for them.
A.H-e. There are three things referred to: first of all it says in verse 39, “Since God has made all this known to thee ...”, and then in verse 40, “shalt be over my house” and then in verse 41, “I have set thee over all the land of Egypt”. They are three distinct features relative to Christ, are they not?
A.J.G. Yes. “Since God has made all this known to thee” and then, “according to thy commandment shall all my people regulate themselves”, and then, “I have set thee over all the land of Egypt”. It is very extensive. While perhaps it is not exactly a parallel, it is interesting to read the earlier verses in Colossians 1, because that idea of ‘all’ comes in so much. It is as though the apostle is concerned about a full result, a complete result in the saints, and Epaphras was concerned about it too, that they should “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God”, Col 4: 12. So the influence of Christ is to extend throughout the whole area where the saints are, and to affect them in all their outlook and activities.
A.C.S.P. Does the reference to his being thirty years old stress that, that the full thought of manhood is there?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.H. Had you in mind to say anything about this naming of Joseph?
A.J.G. I had not anything specially before me, but you have something in mind?
A.H. I was greatly impressed with your remark as to the moral side of finding our place in the assembly, and I was just wondering whether this linked up with that. He is the ‘Sustainer of life’ but also the ‘Revealer of secrets’. In having to do with Christ, and coming under His hand, and really enjoying the food supply, are these things not touched upon in our souls?
A.J.G. They are, I am sure. It is definitely set out in John 4, where the Lord revealed secrets to the woman. He told her all things that ever she had done, but then He brought in the thought of life, and brought it in attractively, so that she desired it.
R.M.Y. Is it important to see, as I think you have already pointed out that the thought of wisdom links very much with the food supply? It is so in Colossians, is it not?
A.J.G. It is. “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another”, Col 3: 16. But have you something further in mind?
R.M.Y. I feel I would like to hear the matter developed. We might think that the food supply is just a matter of the pure grace of God—which, of course, it is—but, in the administration of it, wisdom comes in.
A.J.G. And the apostle seems to make much of that in Colossians, because he speaks of the mystery as “the mystery of God”, and desires that the saints should come to the full knowledge of it, “in which”, he says, “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Col 2: 3. I suppose that means, among other things, that in the assembly as the body of Christ, livingly united to Christ, there is no limit, other than such limits as attach to the creature, to what the assembly can know, or to the wisdom that can be found in it, because she has such a Head.
R.M.Y. And also there is the very thought and labour that the brethren necessarily put into an occasion like this, and all occasions for ministry; they call for wisdom, do they not?
A.J.G. They do. If we could take account of what is going on on the earth, under the hand of Christ, there is a great system of administration operating, in wisdom and grace and love and self-sacrifice, all with a view to the saints being secured and built up, that God’s pleasure might be greatly increased in them, as they serve Him under the touch of Christ.
C.J.H.D. In Luke 12 the Lord raises a somewhat similar question as Pharaoh does here. He says, “Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give the measure of corn in season?” He raises a question as to what is amongst us, do you think?
A.J.G. Yes, indeed. And I suppose with any who would seek to serve the saints in any degree, the great thing is to be in constant touch with Christ, and with the Spirit, and receive direction and impressions from the Spirit, because there is perfect wisdom there, both as to the needs of the saints, on the one hand, and as to what is in the mind of God for them, on the other, and both of those have to be in view in the ministry that is given.
W.B.H. Would Solomon be another example of one marked by wisdom in connection with administration and the food supply? I was thinking of 1 Kings 4 in particular.
A.J.G. Yes,—the various things of which he spoke, do you mean?
W.B.H. Yes, and there seems to be a system under Solomon, having twelve superintendents, and so on, and they provided food for the king and his household, “each man his month in the year had to make provision” (1 Kings 4: 7), and so on.
A.J.G. That is very striking, and then his wisdom is enlarged upon in the paragraph that follows, and the scope of what he covered in his ministry is mentioned, the proverbs, and the songs, and the trees, and so on—“cattle ... fowls ... creeping things, and of fishes” (1 Kings 4: 33)—so that there is wonderful variety that is suggested in the ministry that comes from Christ.
R.S.W. Would it fit in with what you are saying, that Paul in Ephesians 3, connects the administration of the mystery with “the unsearchable riches of the Christ”, Eph 3: 8, 9?
A.J.G. It would. And then in that chapter he also mentions that principalities and authorities in the heavenlies are to see in the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, so that it would put great dignity upon our administration in the assembly, as matters come before us. They may have to be considered by the brothers in care, and they may have to come before the assembly if it is a question of dealing with evil—but it is not only a question of matters of evil, of course—and the all-various wisdom of God is to be seen in the way matters are handled in the assembly at the present time. It would greatly elevate our ideas of the assembly, on every occasion when we come together. The service of God, and the order in which it proceeds, and so on, all that should express the all-various wisdom of God, seen in a creature vessel.
D.S.H. Had you anything in mind about Joseph passing through the whole land of Egypt, at the end of verse 46?
A.J.G. The whole area was to be affected by him, I suppose. What else do you see in it?
D.S.H. I was wondering whether it would give us a great impression of Christ, that He has everything fully in His hand, and full knowledge of everything that needs to be done.
A.J.G. I think it would. It seems to me that it helps us sometimes to take a view of what is going on throughout the world, even in the companies that we know something of, because it is wonderful to think of the Lord, being sufficient, and the Spirit being adequate, for the thousand or so companies that are going on in the light of the assembly, all over the world, the influence of Christ being experienced all over the world, and, broadly speaking the same features coming into evidence all over the world. That is a wonderful tribute to the reality of Christianity as we know it.
A.C.S.P. So that is there not a direct link in the Spirit’s mind between that statement that “Joseph went out from Pharaoh, and passed through the whole land of Egypt”, and what immediately follows, that “the land brought forth by handfuls”?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. But then these two sons of Joseph, and what they were to Joseph, is an affecting thing. First of all, he says, “God has made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house”, and then he says, “God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction”, Gen 41: 51, 52. The name ‘Ephraim’ means ‘double fruitfulness’. Manasseh seems to speak of the great satisfaction that the Lord finds in the assembly at the present time, as abundant compensation for all that He has suffered, especially at the hands of the Jews; and then in Ephraim it is double fruitfulness, so that I suppose He secures for God from the assembly more fruitfulness at the present time than He will ever get from Israel in its best days.
A.H. In that connection, do you think that, as we are together enjoying the food supply, the element of joy ought to mark each occasion? His sorrows are forgotten here. I wondered whether, as we enquire together in the temple locally, and that kind of thing, we need to expect and seek to maintain buoyancy of heart, real joy filling out the occasions.
A.J.G. I think we should. So that the Lord rejoiced in spirit. He told the seventy to rejoice that their names were written in heaven, and then it says, “In the same hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit” (Luke 10: 2l), as though He would set out the idea before them.
L.M. Would that not correspond with John 4: 32—“I have food to eat which ye do not know”—the Lord’s joy in passing through the land and securing assembly material?
A.J.G. I suppose it would. The Lord had joy of His own, in that sense. “I have food to eat which ye do not know ... My food is that I should do the will of him that has sent me, and that I should finish his work”, John 4: 32, 34. But then, I suppose, those who serve in the ministry, in the degree in which they are in touch with Christ and His feelings, would have something of the same joy. It is clear that Paul had, because he speaks with such exultation, in 2 Timothy 4: 7, saying, “I have combated the good combat, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith”, which is very similar to the Lord’s own words.
R.S.W. He says, does he not, “what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting? are not ye also before our Lord Jesus at his coming? for ye are our glory and joy”, 1 Thess 2: 19, 20?
A.J.G. Yes.
R.M.Y. Are you stressing that the joy the Lord has now, at the end of the dispensation, is to be taken into account, as well as the early joy in the opening up of it, the dispensation being one whole, and the Lord having waited patiently like the husbandman for the early and latter rain?
A.J.G. I was thinking of that scripture as you were speaking—“the early and the latter rain” (James 5: 7)—because there was great fruitfulness at the beginning, when the Spirit was undiminished in power, but now we are knowing something of the days of the latter rain, and what it results in for the pleasure of God.
W.B.H. In regard of this matter of joy, as together on the occasion of our readings, I wondered whether the word in Colossians would fit in: “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God”, Col 3: 16.
A.J.G. I think so; that shows that it is a joyous matter—“in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God”. And then there is the verse in chapter 2, to which our brother referred this afternoon, “As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him, rooted and built up in him, and assured in the faith, even as ye have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving”, Col 2: 6, 7. That is connected with our being assured in the faith, according as we have been taught—that we abound in it with thanksgiving—showing that it is not a dry matter. It is not just an academic matter.
W.B.H. So that the occasions of being together in that way should be attractive.
A. J.G. Quite so. You may get people who can reason about things, and bring in philosophy and all that sort of thing, but I do not think you ever find joy in connection with that kind of thing. But when you have the saints established in the truth, assured in the faith, they abound in it with thanksgiving.
E.R.H. Is it significant that similar language is employed in Psalm 45, where the king’s daughter is to forget her father’s house, and there is much made of joy in that Psalm?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
W.McK. And in Psalm 132 it says, “I will abundantly bless her provision; I will satisfy her needy ones with bread. And I will clothe her priests with salvation, and her saints shall shout aloud for joy”, vv 15, 16. There is not only the Lord’s personal joy, and then that extending to the servants, but then all the saints are brought into it.
A.J.G. Quite so. And really, while there are the sorrows of the testimony, and the Lord was a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with griefs, yet joy should characterise it. The Lord speaks of His joy, and He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions. So that we ought to be characterised by joy, even though there is the side of sorrow. Paul says, “grieved, but always rejoicing”, 2 Cor 6: 10.
W.B.H. Is it not remarkable that, of the hymns of Mr Darby’s which we have in our present hymnbook, there is hardly any of them but what alludes to joy?
A.J.G. That is significant, because I am sure Mr Darby knew it, perhaps more than anyone.
E.S. The enduring of the cross, and the despising of the shame, had before it the joy that was before Him, did it not?
A.J.G. Yes, that is striking. “In view of the joy lying before him, endured the cross, having despised the shame”, Heb 12: 2. And in the parable, the Lord says to the faithful servant, “enter into the joy of thy lord”, Matt 25: 2l.
A.C.S.P. Do you think it ought to appeal to our hearts that the Lord is to find a present compensation, in the very place of His affliction, in what He has from His people now?
A.J.G. I am sure it should. And then there is the idea of double fruitfulness, too. Fruitfulness is one thing, but this double fruitfulness, as though the day of the assembly is a day when God gets double measure from the saints, under the hand of Christ.
A.C.S.P. Is it not really derogatory to God Himself to suggest that it will be otherwise, for Joseph says, “God, has caused me to be fruitful” Gen 41: 52.
A.J.G. Yes.
G.P. Would Luke 15 confirm the thought of food and joy going together? “Let us eat and make merry”, Luke 15: 23.
A.J.Q. Quite so. It was the best of food,—the fatted calf.
E.S. It was the reminder of it that stirred the prodigal to go back, was it not?
A.J.G. Yes, the reminder that there was food enough and to spare. But it was not until he got to the house that he tasted the fatted calf.
E.S. I was thinking that even if we get low in spirits, the keeping of the great positive thoughts of God before us would help us back.
A.J.G. It is a great thing to see that at the present time there is a great administration of food going on, and if there is not food in any locality, the saints should get to God about it, and get to the Lord about it. Because you may depend upon it that, if there is not, there is some moral reason for it.
R.H.S. Do you think that Paul was in the power and joy of this food supply, in Philippians 4: 19, when he says, “my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus”?
A.J.G. That is a remarkable statement. It is as though Paul had the measure of God’s own thoughts before him, as the measure in which God would furnish what would meet every need, “according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus”.
J.McK. Do you think the matter of the fruitfulness might extend to the portion for the Father, and for God? Whilst it meets the heart of Christ, it is rather striking that these two sons do not appear in the general system of administration, but come in as the father’s portion.
A.J.G. It is eventually for the Father, and, as you say, for God. Manasseh is specially for the heart of Christ—“God has made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house”. And then Ephraim, no doubt, furnishes great satisfaction for Joseph, as well, and the saints as fruitful would be an occasion of satisfaction for the heart of Christ, but fruitfulness is for God, and the Lord would be considering for God in all that He secures in the assembly.
E.A.E. Can you say why, in Jacob’s blessing, he puts Ephraim before Manasseh?
A.J.G. He was a subject of the sovereignty of God himself, and I think he cherished the idea of the sovereignty of God. The sense of sovereignty, I think, is the final touch, so to speak, that induces worship.
W.J.S. And Jacob had been blessed on those lines, had he not?
A.J.G. He had been blessed on those lines. Before he was born, before he and his twin brother were born, God said that the elder should serve the younger, and that was pure sovereignty.
E.A.E. Does it show that what God always has in mind in fruitfulness?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. And the Lord would have that in mind, and would consider in that way for God.
A.C.S.P. Would you mind saying another word as to your remark that the sense of sovereignty is the final touch that induces worship?
A.J.G. I would not like to lay it down in a hard and fast way that it is the final touch, but I mean the sense of sovereignty in that who can explain why we are brought into the place into which we are brought, save that God in His own sovereign will wishes it so? And does that not give one a great sense of the blessedness of God, and it is that that induces worship.
A.C.S.P. That would be abundantly confirmed from Romans 11, where the sovereignty of God is stressed, and then it says, “of him, and through him, and for him are all things”, Rom 11: 36.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. And there is the additional feature there, that there is the wisdom of His ways brought in as well.
W.B.H. And again in the Ephesian epistle it speaks of God being rich in mercy, Eph 2: 4. I suppose that is pretty much akin to the thought of sovereignty, is it?
A.J.G. Well, it is rich in mercy. But then the first chapter opens up the sovereignty of God particularly. “He has chosen us in him before the world’s foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love”, Eph 1: 4. And then all is for the good pleasure of His will, and so on.
A.A.G. The portion the Father receives is emphasised, is it not, by the fact that Israel claims Ephraim and Manasseh as his own?
A.J.G. You are referring now to chapter 46? Yes, exactly.
A.H-e. Is it not a great mercy that God does not commit His sovereignty to anybody? He has it Himself entirely.
A.J.G. Exactly.
J.McM. So that, in that sense, you can understand Paul saying, “To me, less that the least of all saints, has this grace been given”, Eph 3: 8. What a deep sense of the sovereignty of God he had, as to what had been committed to him!
A.J.G. Yes, and he writes the whole of the epistle to the Ephesians in the sense of that. He begins with “Blessed be the God and Father” (Eph 1: 3), does he not?
J.McM. Yes. I was only thinking of how it came out in one man there. You were referring to Jacob, in that sense.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
F.W.B. And David, in 1 Chronicles 29: 14, says, “who am I, and what is my people?”
A.J.G. Yes exactly. And before that, in chapter 17 of 1 Chronicles, he goes in and sits before Jehovah. He does not exactly go to worship, but he just goes to sit before Jehovah, and to let the sense of what Jehovah is in His blessedness sink into his soul, and then he begins to express himself in worshipful language.
C.J.H.D. Is what is sovereign connected with this thought of the throne? I was thinking of that expression in Ephesians, “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ”, Eph 1: 17.
A.J.G. I suppose it is. “Only concerning the throne”, Pharaoh says, “will I be greater than thou”, Gen 41: 40.
C.J.B.S. On our side, if we are to come into the gain of what is being administered, does the end of verse 55 indicate that it can only be on the lines of subjection to Christ, and obedience to His word? It says, “Go to Joseph: what he says to you, that do”.
A.J.G. I am sure that is a salutary word with which to finish, because that is the secret of all prosperity. There are, as we know, brethren around us who have left the systems of men, and who meet more or less in a similar way to that in which we meet, but, alas, they are not subject to Christ, and the result is that there is very little food among them. “Go to Joseph: what he says to you, that do”.
A.C.S.P. In a very similar setting, in John’s gospel, when the joy ran out, the word is, ‘Whatever he may say to you, do”, John 2: 5.
A.J.G. Yes, the word of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
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