Reading 4—Lord’s day afternoon
A.J.G. It will have been noticed that in these two chapters we get Christ Jesus brought before us more personally than in the scriptures we have had in the previous readings. In those scriptures, that is in 2 Timothy, and in Romans and Corinthians, and Ephesians, it was largely our own position through grace in Christ Jesus, that was in mind, the dignified and elevated character of it. But in these two chapters, while we do get at the end, in verse 14, “The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”, in the main it is Christ Jesus personally that is before the heart of the apostle, rather than the condition or position of glory and elevation, which is given to us in Christ Jesus, and that makes this epistle in one sense distinctive, and also the further consideration that Paul is not exactly writing as an apostle, but as he says at the beginning, “Paul and Timotheus, bondmen of Jesus Christ”. He is speaking more from the experimental standpoint, so that he says in chapter 3, “I do not count to have got possession myself; but one thing”, and then says, “Be imitators all together of me, brethren, and fix your eyes on those walking thus as you have us for a model”, so that the apostle is writing more as a model of the believer who is in the enjoyment of our calling on high in Christ Jesus, and the epistle is particularly encouraging and stimulating to us, especially as any of us begin to get older, because it shows us what was the outlook of a spiritual believer as he drew near to the end of his life. No doubt he was still carrying the exercises of the testimony in prayer, and fully committed still, so far as he was able in prison, to the service, but this epistle gives us very much his own personal outlook, and I think from that standpoint it is very encouraging and it is clear that he has Christ Jesus in glory, and in the moral excellence that marks Him, much before his heart, and brings it to bear upon the saints, bringing it in in chapter 2 in a remarkable way, as having a voice to us if there should be the slightest element of disunity amongst us. So that he takes occasion of a little element of disunity at Philippi, speaking of it very tenderly and not making over much of it, not only to appeal to the affection that was in them for himself, to fulfil his joy, but also as an incentive and power for doing so, he brings in the mind that was in Christ Jesus, saying, “Let this mind be in you”. So he is bringing to bear upon us the influence of, as he says, “Christ Jesus my Lord”, the supreme influence of the heavenly Man, the Man out of heaven.
G.R.C. If we might make a remark, bearing on what has been before us in the past days, in his address to this company he says, “To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers”. I do not want to divert you from what you are saying as to the Lord personally, but I was wondering if that expression brings in the two lines that have been before us, the elevation “to all the saints in Christ Jesus” and yet the practical side, that there were overseers and ministers serving in the grace of Christ.
A.J.G. I think that would be right, and I think, if I remember rightly, that one remarked in one of the readings what Mr Stoney said once3, which impressed me very much, that the prosperity of any local meeting depends, not so much on the gift that is present in it, but on the care that there is exercised and the extent of the oversight and the character of it. You had that somewhat in mind?
G.R.C. Yes, I had, because that is a very practical matter, and if we were under the influence of Christ Jesus it would not be lacking.
A.J.G. No, it would not.
F.G.S. Then later in chapter 1, has the apostle the spiritual welfare of the saints in mind on this line? He had been speaking of his desire to depart and to be with Christ, but then it was necessary for their sakes that he should remain in the flesh. He says, “I know that I shall remain and abide along with you all, for your progress and joy in faith; that your boasting may abound in Christ Jesus through me by my presence again with you”.
A.J.G. That is a wonderful example of self-sacrificing love is it not? That he was content to remain in prison conditions rather than to depart to be with Christ, because he knew that his remaining would be for their good, for their progress and joy in faith.
M.L.J.M. Referring to your reference to Mr Stoney again, do you think Paul took that up as he wrote to the saints in Philippi in the first chapter, when he said, “how I long after you all in the bowels of Christ Jesus”?
A.J.G. I was thinking that he presents himself and Timotheus too, as bondmen of Jesus Christ, that is, he is not asserting authority other than the authority that is of a moral character, because of what a person is, and that enters very much into effective care, do you not think, that an elder does not claim a status, but that he is what he is, and has influence because of what he is.
R.M.B. So does what is said in verse 17 of chapter 2 bear out what has been said as to sacrificing love in the care of the saints?
A.J.G. It does. It shows how thoroughly devoted Paul was to securing the pleasure of God. The Philippians had ministered greatly to the pleasure of God in sending to Paul, indeed he says in chapter 4 that what they had done was “an odour of sweet savour, an acceptable sacrifice, agreeable to God”. And we can see how it was so because the Philippians were poor, as we may gather, I think, from 2 Corinthians, and Epaphroditus had nearly lost his life in bringing their gift to Paul, so that what they had done represented a very great sacrifice and it had ascended to God as a sweet savour, but then Paul says he is going to add to it if need be, that is, he is prepared in obedience to God’s will and self-sacrifice to go the length of martyrdom if need be, and I believe that is what he has in mind in his reference to being poured out as a libation. He is going to add the drink-offering to what the Philippians had already provided for the pleasure of God.
F.C.M. As to the matter of care, does his reference to Timothy in verse 20 show the high value he placed on any one, and the only one available, who cared with genuine feeling how the saints were getting on?
A.J.G. It does, very distinctly. It is remarkable that that was found in a comparatively young man, in Timothy.
G.R.C. And so all this would flow out of what Mr Millard referred to, “how I long after you all in the bowels of Christ Jesus”—a remarkable expression, “the bowels of Christ Jesus”, and he begins chapter 2 with “if any bowels and compassions”, as though we shall not take in much what he is going to say if they are not present.
A.J.G. And do not you think that shows how Christ Jesus is to give character to the whole system? It is the moral excellence of the Man Christ Jesus, that is to place its impress on the whole system, all that is seen in the assembly for God’s pleasure is to take its impress from Christ Jesus.
J.O.S. Paul in his care of the saints at Ephesus, says that he did not cease admonishing each one of you with tears; does that enter into this great matter of care? I was thinking of each one of you, and then his tears.
A.J.G. Yes, it does, and he says from house to house too, if I remember rightly, and then his own hands had laboured, not only for his own wants, but for those who were with him.
F.G.S. Would all that show how Paul personally appreciated this glorious Person, Christ Jesus, in the personal way to which you have referred?
A.J.G. That, I believe, is a characteristic feature of the epistle. As you read it you become impressed with that more and more, that Paul has got Christ Jesus before his heart, and is fully occupied with the features seen in Him. It is the heavenly Man, the Man out of heaven, and what a contrast to the first man.
E.C.L. All these expressions show how inward feelings are to be reckoned with amongst the saints, there should be that which should touch us inwardly. Is not the presentation of Christ Jesus, in the way in which He is spoken of in this chapter, intended to move us inwardly?
A.J.G. I am sure it is, and he places great importance on real unity, so that he says, “that ye may think the same thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking one thing” as though he is using stronger and stronger expressions, you might say, in order to enforce the idea of real unity.
J.W.G. Does the bondman form refer to the moral glory of love descending? I was thinking of the way that Paul really took on the features of the One who descended, and how the moral glory of Paul’s service as bondman was available to the saints.
A.J.G. Yes, I would think so.
E.J.F. Making reference to the presentation of the Person of Christ, is it that we are to be powerfully affected by these two great themes, one being His humiliation, and the other the greatness of His place in glory? Does the epistle bring out both?
A.J.G. Well, the exaltation which God has given Him is God’s answer to the descending glory and shows His valuation of it. It is brought in so that we might come to the same reckoning. So that he speaks in chapter one of our being able to “judge of and approve the things that are more excellent”. A striking expression, because excellent literally means the best you can possibly get, but yet he says, “more excellent”.
J.O.S. That word ‘intelligence’ there, I understand, carries the force of ‘perception’.
A.J.G. Because the Spirit would help us to reckon with God, and if God shows us how He regards the course that has been taken by Christ, by answering it in this supreme exaltation, it is intended that we should come to appreciate it in the same way. That has a powerful influence over us, because each of us knows what it is to have in himself, in his own flesh, thoughts of self-exaltation and self-seeking, but it is immediately rebuked by the influence of Christ Jesus. So that the more we keep ourselves in the light of Christ Jesus, and in nearness to Him, the more we are preserved and formed under the influence of Him Who is the heavenly One.
A.M.B. So Paul emphasises this, does he not, in verse 7: “but emptied himself” then a little lower down, “humbled himself” showing how great the humiliation was which marked Him voluntarily.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so, and “emptied himself” is a remarkable expression, showing how far it went.
F.E.S. In this beginning of chapter two, he raises the question, “If then there be any comfort in Christ, if any consolation of love”, would that bring in the thought of the power and the headship of Christ, as to how these things can be derived from His headship?
A.J.G. I think so. I think it is the comfort in Christ, the consolation of love, known amongst ourselves, as all affected by Christ. The influence of Christ over the saints is such that together this comfort in Christ and consolation of love and fellowship of the Spirit are enjoyed.
F.E.S. I was wondering in that way if it would be derived from Christ. It is not derived from ourselves or from the world, but as coming under His influence these things obtain among us.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so; in our mutual relations with one another.
F.G.S. So this mind that is to be in you, is what is to be found amongst us, not just a personal matter, but affecting the company, this mind to be in the company.
A.J.G. Yes, it is to be amongst us, but, of course, it must be taken on by each one.
J.L.W. Are they promoted amongst the saints by the exercise of oversight?
A.J.G. I suppose it would be so, especially as there is the influence of good example, so that Paul presents himself as a model. That is a great feature of Christianity that there is not only the truth presented absolutely and objectively in Christ, but there are those who can be regarded as models; that is the divine idea, that the truth should be exemplified.
E.C.L. I was wondering whether the fact that the overseers and ministers are mentioned specifically would indicate perhaps that there may be a tendency amongst them that lead to seek a place, whereas one has to be careful and watch, lest in seeking to do what may be oversight and care, we may have ourselves before us in any way.
A.J.G. That might be. On the other hand there might be a tendency not to give sufficient place to overseers, a kind of radical tendency, such as is in the world today, to despise anything that is placed over others, because we always tend to take colour, almost unconsciously, from the influences around us.
E.C.L. I go with that thoroughly.
F.W.Tn. Would you say that the “If” in, “If there be any comfort” is not an “if” of doubt, but rather stimulating, so that these conditions should be normal with us in all localities?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. But the way the apostle immediately brings in the mind that was in Christ Jesus, is very affecting.
A.L.B. Does the apostle bring in these ‘ifs’ as implying that these things are needed to build his exhortation on? Unless they are there the unity cannot be secured in any real way, in love.
A.J.G. Quite so. It is the “if” of reasoning, is it not? It is the “if” of spiritual logic, if certain things are so, then pursue them.
G.R.C. The idea of unity here is stronger than anywhere else, would you say, in a practical way.
A.J.G. I think it is.
G.R.C. I was thinking of “joined in soul” and in the previous chapter, “in one spirit, with one soul”, that even in our innermost feelings, we are one. That would prepare for having this mind and taking on this mind, would it not?
A.J.G. Quite so, and taking on the mind would greatly strengthen us in it at the same time.
F.C.M. Would this be illustrated in Paul’s reference to himself, that we had yesterday in Ephesians 3, speaking of his own ministry, “according to the gift of the grace of God”, and he adds, “To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given”.
A.J.G. That is a striking expression of real lowliness wrought by the Spirit in a man who was at one time proud and insolent. It shows how immense is the influence of Christ, and how real it is.
F.E.S. Is that the fruit of it being taken on; “let this mind be in you” or ‘amongst you’. But let it be so, take it on, give place to it.
G.R.C. Would you say a word as to that mind? You have some thought about it.
A.J.G. The mind is what regulates our actions, we have to start with the mind, and this was a mind to go down. I take it it is true manhood that has in view the glory of God. There is the entire absence of any self-seeking, “emptied himself” shows how absolutely there was no single element of self-seeking. It was a mind entirely devoted to God being glorified. That really is the true glory of man, that God should be glorified in him, and therefore it not only expressed itself in His becoming man, taking a bondman’s form, but having taken that condition, He worked out what was proper to that condition, that is obedience, and obedience to the fullest extent, “even … the death of the cross”.
E.E.K. Do you think the Lord in John 17 had this in mind when He says “I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me”, v 23. Do you think the Lord’s expression there ‘may be one’ would be what we are on now, one of longing desires that these features may be seen?
A.J.G. Yes, and “That the world may know that thou hast sent me” —that is to say it is to work out to God’s glory. I believe the more we think of it, the more we study Christ as He is presented in the gospels, the more we find that He is always considering for the glory of God, and that is what is proper to man, what is right in the creature, that it should seek the glory of the Creator, and be governed by His will; hence obedience is proper.
E.B.W. And in the Lord Jesus taking on this mind, is the thought that we do not wait for such a thing to be formed in us, but it is a deliberate act, we take on the mind of lowliness and go down.
A.J.G. I think so, you see that it is excellent. We are regarded as having the capacity to judge of and approve the things that are more excellent, and this is the thing that is supremely excellent in the sight of God in a Man, in the Man Christ Jesus, so much so that He has decreed that every knee should bow before Him and every tongue confess that He is Lord to God the Father’s glory. So that it is supreme excellence in manhood, depicted here.
S.J.R. I would like to ask if the expressions, “emptied himself” and “humbled himself” would be what was in the apostle’s mind when he says, “ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that for your sakes he, being rich, became poor”, 2 Cor 8: 9.
A.J.G. Well, it would be I suppose.
J.J.McC. Is it here more the bent of the mind than the thinking quality itself?
A.J.G. Yes, the bent of the mind.
J.O.S. I suppose the creature will never fathom the depths of the lowliness of Christ Jesus.
A.J.G. Quite so. It says, “who subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself”. That applies only to Christ, it could not possibly apply to any creature, so that the havoc that has been wrought by man, through Satan’s instigation, seeking to make himself equal with God, has been met by this wonderful act, the action of one of the Godhead becoming Man, and then having entered into that condition, filling it our perfectly in the obedience proper to the position. When He became Man, He did not assume an exalted place or seek the chief place in manhood, but He became obedient, an obedience that was fully tested, even to the death of the cross.
A.M.B. So would it be right to say that He laid His Godhead glory by in this great stoop, and that He has acquired another glory in the humility which marked Him in taking that stoop?
A.J.G. Well, I always hesitate to use any other words than the words of scripture to describe what it was the Lord did, because if we do not adhere to the words of scripture themselves in considering such a matter as this we are in danger, unconsciously, of saying something that is not quite accurate. So that if we want to speak of it, it is better to use just the words of scripture and leave it at that. He certainly did acquire a great glory as Man, as the result of this stoop and of His obedience, but I mean if we want to speak of the beginning of what is described here, it is best to say what it says here, that “He emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in the likeness of men”.
E.J.F. Would the remark that J N Darby made4 about it help in considering it? He said that ‘as God, He emptied Himself; as Man He humbled Himself’?
A.J.G. Yes, that is right, I think that is clear, because the “emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in the likeness of men”, is what He, as God, entered into, into human form and condition, and then having taken up the place He acted in it consistently with the place He had taken, that is He was marked by obedience.
P.G.T. And though He emptied Himself, the fulness of the Godhead still dwelt in Him.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. Colossians 1 makes that clear “for in him all the fulness was pleased to dwell”.
A.A.B. Would this be the answer to what is said in Psalm 40 prophetically of Christ, “Behold, I come … To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight”?
A.J.G. Quite so, that was what was in His heart. I think here it is not simply a question of doing God’s will but it is meeting the challenge, it seems to me, that Satan had brought in, that had apparently ruined man for God’s pleasure. It is met by this wonderful movement of One of the Godhead, and He becomes now, in manhood, a supreme influence, so that men are secured and held for the pleasure of God, under the influence of Christ.
C.C.I. Is this influence seen in John 13, “If I therefore, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet … I have given you an example”, v 14?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. You might say He took up bondman service in washing their feet.
F.W.Tn. These downward steps being presented as the Lord’s own acts, is there a certain glory about that?
A.J.G. Oh! There surely is. So that as Mr F said, having become a Man He humbled Himself, He did not assume the greatest place in manhood, but He “humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death”, that is, as I understand it, obedient all along the line, culminating in death, and that the death of the cross. That is, it is obedience fully tested.
F.E.S. As you enlarge on the moral glories and excellence which are seen in Christ, and this mind that was in Him, does it not make it so precious and wonderful, these moral qualities are to be seen amongst ourselves?
A.J.G. Well, I think that leads us on to the third chapter, because what we have in chapter three is that Paul understood that he had been apprehended to be found in Christ, that is, the saints have been taken up by God to be set up before Him in all the moral excellence of Christ Jesus. We are in Him by the Spirit, and the Spirit can form the features of Christ in the saints, and Paul recognised that as extremely excellent, he says, “the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord”.
F.W.B. I was thinking that verse 3 of chapter 3 would have some bearing on what you were saying last evening, that Paul says he boasts in Christ Jesus, and does not trust in the flesh. Is he entirely free, completely free, of the Philistine element?
A.J.G. I am sure he is, and it is clear that Christ Jesus is filling his vision, so that he boasts in Christ Jesus and has no confidence in the flesh, and then he tells us, by the Spirit, that if anyone thought he might have occasion to boast in flesh, Paul more than anybody else, but then it was eclipsed for him by the light of Christ Jesus.
F.W.B. Do we find, speaking quite practically, that this becomes perhaps one of the most testing things for us, as to whether we trust in flesh?
A.J.G. Yes, whether we place some confidence in it, so that we boast in it, secretly it may be. But it seems to me that it is illustrated for us in Luke 15, because the father goes out to the elder son, and the elder son says, “Behold, so many years I serve thee, and never have I transgressed a commandment of thine” and so on, so that he is really trusting in flesh and in what he had been. But then the father virtually says, yes, but even so, the best robe is infinitely better, why not embrace the idea of the best robe, because ‘never transgressed at any time the father’s commandment’ would never have entitled him to the best robe, the most it would have entitled him to would have been to go on living until he broke down, and then was lost, but the best robe is what pure grace brings in.
F.W.B. Would it somewhat link on then with what we have in verse 8 which speaks of “the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord”?
A.J.G. Yes, it is the best, the best that God can bring in for man.
F.E.S. So would you say really that in a sense we reach the great climax of the Spirit’s work in a subjective way in the saints, like the apostle Paul, that he was ready to depart, and would these moral features be found in the saints as the completion of the Spirit’s work amongst us, making us ready for the rapture?
A.J.G. I think so, and I believe if we see that this is what God has in mind, this is what is involved in the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus, we shall recognise that God will use everything in our circumstances to further this end with us, if we will be pliable in His hand.
J.O.S. I suppose no one could have said anything to offend Paul personally?
A.J.G. As marked by having this before him that would be so. We know that he was not perfect, we know that on one occasion he said, “God will smite thee, whited wall”, which may have been righteous indignation, but perhaps was not quite in the power of the Spirit. But still there it is, he has the calling and the standard before him, and he is pursuing it.
E.C.L. What does he mean by “gain Christ”?
A.J.G. The note says, ‘have Christ for my gain’. What do you think of that?
E.C.L. I was wondering how it would work out. Is it that Christ becomes the satisfying object of the soul, or is it that there may be something acquired in the way of likeness?
A.J.G. I think really it is both. I suppose Christ personally as the satisfying object of his heart would result in his taking on the features of Christ, not that he would be occupied exactly with taking on the features of Christ, save that he would let the mind be in him; at the same time, having Christ as his gain, I suppose, would result in his becoming like Christ.
E.C.L. So the actual becoming like Christ is the Spirit’s work, is it not?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
H.W. In our spiritual history should we come to a real assessment of these matters?
A.J.G. I think so, so that Paul not only says that he counted things that might have been an advantage to him as men reckon “to be filth, that I may gain Christ; and that I may be found in him, not having my righteousness, which would be on the principle of law”, that is to say, he discards anything that would make anything of himself. He sees that the grandeur of being “found in him”, absolutely in Christ, is so wonderful that he does not want to retain anything that would in any way dim it, or present the thought of an alternative or anything of that sort.
H.W. Paul is very definite in the matter. He speaks of “all things”, and he speaks about himself and he arrives at a conclusion as to the matter; so that his whole outlook is now focussed on this glorious Person. Do you think it would help us too in making spiritual progress if we really came to an understanding of this?
A.J.G. I believe it would. I do not suppose for a moment it meant that Paul ceased to carry the exercises of the testimony and the interests of the saints at heart; but at the same time he seems at the end of his course to be marked by this that he has Christ in glory before him in the sense that he himself is to be found in Him. That is to say, it will be Paul, and yet not a trace left of what Paul had been naturally, but all Christ.
H.W. It is good to take account of a man of God like this at the end of his course, summing things up, so to speak.
A.J.G. That is exactly what I felt. It is a very striking thing that we are allowed to see that this is what was governing Paul as he drew near to the end of his days.
G.R.C. Does it not show how we need to have a balance between objective and subjective truths? Here was a man at the end of his days speaking of “the righteousness which is of God through faith”. As you say, that is grand! And we grow in the appreciation of it, although we begin with it in a way.
A.J.G. Quite so.
F.W.B. Is it not good to see Paul so buoyant, although passing through much in the way of tribulation on account of the testimony, and yet so buoyant at the end of his days?
A.J.G. It is, and I think as we read chapter 1, we can see that he was being very severely tested, so that he says, “according to my earnest expectation and hope”. He counts on the supplication of the saints and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ according to his earnest expectation and hope, “that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but in all boldness, as always, now also Christ shall be magnified in my body whether by life or by death”. That was in keeping with the calling that he apprehends he had been taken up for.
P.W. Would Zechariah 3 be an illustration of righteousness? “And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Angel. And he spoke and said unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from off him. And unto him he said, See, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I clothe thee with festival-robes”. That is the righteousness, is it not?
A.J.G. Exactly. I think the great point is that he says, “not having my righteousness”, but he says, “the righteousness which is of God through faith”. That was what he wanted, that is to say, he did not want any glory to attach to Paul—that is really what it amounts to. I think if we examine our own thoughts we shall find that, perhaps, more than we realise, we want to find something in ourselves to find satisfaction in—it may be as good Christians, or as faithful servants, or something of that sort; but at the end Paul is wanting to find nothing about him that he himself would boast in; he wanted to be boasting in Christ Jesus, and that God should have the glory.
F.W.B. So that at the end of the epistle, in line with what you are saying now, Paul says, “But my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory, in Christ Jesus. But to our God and Father be glory to the ages of ages”.
A.J.B. That is it, it is “his riches in glory in Christ Jesus”. It seems to me the best robe really illustrates it because the best, God’s best, must be better than anything I can bring forward.
F.W.B. Then, as you say, he arrives at this great point of what is due to God, the glory which is due to God.
R.M.B. Would his experience in being caught up to the third heaven and what he saw there be a help to him?
A.J.G. I have no doubt it would, only it is remarkable that he does not tell us that he saw things, he tells us that he heard things there.
F.G.S. Is it encouraging that although the apostle is so near to the end of his course, he is not giving up? He has not attained things but he is pressing on. “I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”. Is it a matter of encouragement to those of us who are younger to continue in this precious path, and having this great end before us?
A.J.G. To be “found in him”—I think that is a remarkable expression!
F.E.S. So would you say that in bringing forward overseers and ministers at the beginning of the epistle, this is really what is in mind for them to pay attention to, to develop this and encourage these features and spirit amongst the brethren in our localities?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
F.W.S. I was thinking of the need of it. The whole system outside, the educational world and the commercial world, is all designed of the enemy to cultivate another spirit, so foreign to this.
A.J.G. Quite so. It is something like what we had last night, Abimelech and Phichol, big men, and then bringing in the social element; but they are entirely foreign to what is truly heavenly.
A.M.B. As the greatness and the glory of the Person of Christ Jesus comes before the apostle, it would cause him to express his desires in such an ardent way as he does, “that I may gain Christ”, and then, “and to know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings”. Would that be right?
A.J.G. I believe that is very striking. He says, “to know him”, and then, “and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death”. It is striking that he does not say simply the power of resurrection and conformed to death, but “the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among the dead”. I believe he was tracing in his mind the way Christ has gone, the way by which He has reached His present position, and he wanted to be brought into accord with Him in every detail.
A.A.B. Is that shown by “seeing that also I have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus”? Is the thought there that he is conscious of complete suitability and that the Lord has something as a result?
A.J.G. When you say ‘complete suitability’ what have you in mind?
A.A.B. Subjectively in himself. There is something about him which is attractive to Christ Jesus.
A.J.G. I think that would be right, only I hesitate to say ‘complete’ suitability subjectively because he says, “I do not count myself to have got possession obtained”, that is, he does not consider that he has yet reached perfection, but he is going on. He sees the perfect standard before him in Christ, and he knows he has been taken up by Christ Jesus to be found in Him. So he is moving on the principle of obedience and of keeping before his mind and heart the true excellence as found in Christ, so that there is nothing more excellent than to be conformed to Christ.
W.J.C. What is the real force of “the power of his resurrection”?
A.J.G. I suppose the apostle sees that great power, greater than the power of death, has been seen in the resurrection of Christ, and therefore that has the effect on him that he is prepared to be martyred if need be. I think that is what he has before him, that he is prepared to have part in the fellowship of Christ’s sufferings, suffering for the truth, and even to go into death, because he has faith in the power of His resurrection.
J.W.S. Would it be the power to touch what is beyond Jordan?
A.J.G. I believe it has a present bearing in that way, but it seems to me that the apostle is really looking now at actually arriving at the full result beyond death.
J.O.S. Was that not in mind when he was baptised unto Christ Jesus? Is it not this glorious end that is in mind at the beginning?
A.J.G. I suppose it is. But it is the power of Christ’s resurrection; the resurrection of Christ has been a selective resurrection, God raising up from among the dead what was delightful to Him. In the same way the resurrection of the saints will be of the same character. So in Luke 20 the Lord refers to those who are counted worthy to have part in that world and the resurrection from among the dead.
E.B.W. Would everything that He does be special and unique, not only His resurrection but His sufferings and His death?
A.J.G. That is exactly what I thought. That there is a moral glory attaching to the sufferings of Christ, the way He went through everything in devotion to God’s will and glory, putting His trust in God, whatever suffering was heaped upon Him; and then His death, as completely yielded to God’s will and seeking His glory. So that there was a moral excellence about everything that Christ did, and Paul desired to come into accord with it as far as was possible to a creature.
E.C.L. Is that our response to the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus?
A.J.G. I think it is. It seems to me that is the way by which we really come into it, because the calling on high is not simply a position in glory, but it is subjective conditions that are of moral excellence.
M.L.J.M. Would Paul’s reference to “brethren” in chapter 3 show his great concern that they may follow in his steps? In verse 13 he says, “Brethren, I do not count to have got possession myself”, and then in verse 17, “be imitators all together of me, brethren”.
A.J.G. It is an example of the bowels of Christ Jesus in the apostle going out to the saints.
A.J.M. Do you mean he would only obtain the prize if he was martyred? Would he not enter into these things unless he went that way?
A.J.G. Oh, I would not like to say that, because there are many saints who have not been martyred and yet they have their part in the “calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”. Only it does seem to me that the apostle is looking forward to martyrdom. I do not think there is any doubt about that. He is prepared for it because it is a question of complete surrender at whatever cost to the will of God. That shone out in its excellence in Christ, and Paul is prepared to go the same way.
J.W.G. Is that why he is a remarkable model of Christ in relation to suffering?
A.J.G. Yes, he is.
A.J.M. I was going to ask as to the previous chapter, where he speaks of the mind in Christ Jesus, and he speaks in chapter 3 verse 15, “as many therefore as are perfect, let us be thus minded”. What do you think he is referring to there?
A.J.G. Complete conformity to Christ. If God is pleased to order martyrdom for us, well, we trust God will give us grace so that we may go through it as Christ did. But then, that may not be His will, it is not His will for everybody. The great point is to be completely and happily yielded to God’s will.
E.C.L. It seems as if Paul anticipates that there will be some, right down the dispensation, who were taking character from Christ Jesus, so that we ought to be able to find such persons and fix our eyes on them so as to encourage us to go on in the same path.
A.J.G. Exactly.
G.R.C. The word “perfect” in verse 15, the note says, means ‘full-grown’. It does not mean perfect as to attainment, does it, but perfect in sensibilities and objects.
A.J.G. Yes quite so. Paul himself says he does not regard himself as perfect in that sense, that is to say, he does not regard himself as having attained, as having got possession.
F.C.M. Would the use of the term “calling” (v 14) imply an appeal on the order of manhood in which the whole pleasure of God is centred?
A.J.G. Yes, I think it would. We have been called to it. 2 Timothy says it is a “holy calling”, because of the general departure from the truth which characterised the day in which Paul wrote. Hebrews says it is a “heavenly calling”, because the danger of the saints to whom the epistle was written was to be earthly minded and to go back to an earthly order of service. But here he calls it the “calling on high of God”, as though to stress what an exalted calling it is.
A.J.M. Do you think the apostle had the Lord’s words in mind, “If anyone serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant”, John 12: 26?
A.J.G. Those are striking words, certainly. What had you in mind specially?
A.J.M. I wondered whether it was exemplified in the apostle, how he followed. Then “there also shall be my servant”.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. So the Lord had similar thoughts in mind for Peter, had He not? The last recorded word to Peter before the Lord went on high was, “Follow thou me”, and He assured Peter that whatever he had been in the past he should, in the end, glorify God in his death.
E.J.F. Why does he bring in the idea of forgetting things here? “forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue”.
A.J.G. I think it is to enforce the idea of definiteness and spirituality. Many of us tend to live in the past but Paul says, “forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before”. It is the idea of race, is it not? If you are going to start in a race you do not look behind you or allow yourself to be occupied with what is at the back of you. You keep your eye on the goal, and you know that when you reach the goal there is the prize.
E.J.F. Are these two sides then necessary, the fixity of purpose in the words used, “I pursue”, and the other side, the knowledge that we have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus to come to this end?
A.J.G. Yes, exactly and you are not going to give up until you have reached the goal.
R.W. Would you tell us what is the import of the words, “this also God shall reveal to you”?
A.J.G. “And if ye are any otherwise minded, this also God shall reveal to you”. God is prepared to help us, if we are prepared to be helped. So that if we have any other mind before us, that is to say, if we are not in line with God’s calling of us, God is prepared to show that to us. Then, of course, the test arises as to whether we are prepared to adjust our outlook and come into line with what God has called us for.
F.A.F. You referred earlier to prison conditions. How is it that these great thoughts bound up with “in Christ Jesus” come out in those conditions?
A.J.G. A few years ago in meetings with Mr Taylor, he stressed5 that God ordered prison conditions for Paul at the end, not exactly to emphasise the side of rigorous conditions but rather affording him rest, relief from active service, so that he might be restful in order to receive these great thoughts; because if you are engaged all the time in activity and service, the danger is of not being sufficiently restful to receive the greatest thoughts. At the same time, it is clear from chapter 1, I think, that he found the conditions very testing and that Satan intended they should be testing; and it only served to perfect in Paul the principle of obedience. I believe that is the great moral glory that is traced in this epistle, the principle of obedience, whatever is involved in it, and really in that way he was taking on the great features of Christ Jesus.
F.W.B. Do we see in chapter 4 how restful Paul was as he speaks of “the peace of God” which surpasses every understanding guarding our hearts and thoughts by Christ Jesus?
A.J.G. Yes, and another remarkable thing he says there is, “for as to me I have learnt in those circumstances in which I am, to be satisfied in myself”. chap 4: 11. That is a remarkable thing, and I believe it shows how much he found the Spirit was to him, “to be satisfied in myself”. I mean that is the great value of the Spirit becoming a fountain of living water in the believer, that he is rendered independent of his surrounding circumstances, but he always carries within him that which is great enough to satisfy him.
W.J.C. And the prison conditions would greatly enhance in that way the Spirit in relation to his service, would you say? Prison conditions are no barrier to the unfolding in that way of the divine mind, as having the Spirit.
A.J.G. Exactly, and in fact it rather worked out to his help, it developed “the mind that was in Christ Jesus” in Paul, I believe that is one result of the prison conditions.
J.J.McC. Is it necessary for Paul to accept the prison conditions as the prisoner of the Christ Jesus before this gain is fully realised?
A.J.G. Well, he says in Ephesians, “the prisoner of the Christ Jesus, for you nations”, because it was really because of the mystery, and the inveterate hatred of the Jews to it, that he found himself in prison. Then in chapter 4 of the epistle to the Ephesians he says, “I, the prisoner in the Lord”. So that in either case his imprisonment was dignified, you might say, or glorious.
F.G.S. Then is Paul’s closing salutation in this epistle interesting, “Salute every saint in Christ Jesus”. Is that to be our outlook upon all the beloved saints, that they have this place of power that you have referred to earlier, “in Christ Jesus”?
A.J.G. Power and dignity—yes.
F.A.F. David speaks of his afflictions; but then he says, “Arise Jehovah into thy rest, thou and the ark of thy strength”. Does that not touch “in Christ Jesus”?
A.J.G. I think so. Saints in Christ Jesus before God really provide conditions in which God can rest.
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