Reading 4—Monday morning
Reading 4—Monday morning
A.J.G. For the sake of those who were not present on Saturday it might be said that we are looking at the book of Daniel, specially having in mind four features which appear in Daniel, that is to say, continuance, and prosperity, and loveableness, and intelligence in the mind of God, feeling that these are features which God would have mark us as in the last days and in the presence of the development of evil in opposition to the truth on the earth. On Saturday we looked briefly at parts of the first section of the book, that is, the first 6 chapters, and this morning and this afternoon we might look at the second section. We do not come to the thought of loveableness in any distinctive way until perhaps this afternoon, but in the second section of the book with which we are now occupied there is the great thought of Daniel becoming intelligent in the mind of God. We also remarked that Daniel’s history is occupied either with his very early years when spoken of as a youth, or with the latter part of his life when he was evidently quite old. It is easy to gather from the closing chapters of the second book of Kings that there was a long period between the first chapter of Daniel and what we have now in this second section which begins with the first year of Belshazzar. For it is clear from the end of 2 Kings that before Belshazzar reigned in Babylon Evil-Merodach reigned, and he commenced his reign in the thirty-seventh year of Jehoiachin’s captivity which was forty-five years after Daniel was carried away captive. So that there was at least forty-five years, and probably considerably more, between the first chapter of Daniel and this second section of the book, and what might also be noticed is that during this time Daniel was apparently lost sight of, because Belshazzar, as we read in chapter 5, sends for him, he sends for him as one of whom he had forgotten or knew nothing, the queen mother recalling to him that there had been such a man, so that while in the early part of his life God was pleased to bring him forward and give him a position of prominence publicly, that was just to indicate that those who honour God, God will honour, but God has no intention that His people should occupy a prominent place in relation to this world, so that Daniel disappears from view, until we come to Darius’s reign when again he is tested in connection with the lions’ den. But now when we come to Belshazzar’s reign, we find that he is receiving communications from God. In chapter 7 he is in bed in the night time, that is withdrawn from what is going on around, and in chapter 8 and again in chapter 10 he is by a river, Ulai in chapter 8 and Hiddekel in chapter 10, which for us is very suggestive of the necessity for being withdrawn in thought from what is going on around us and becoming available to the Spirit of God, who is prepared to give us understanding in the mind of God, because not only is that necessary if we are to stand steadfastly, but also it is a feature of sonship for God’s pleasure. We remarked also that Daniel’s name means ‘God is judge’, and that it was doubtless the sense of that that made Daniel so steadfast, the sense that he and everyone else had to do with God, so that we read in the book of Proverbs that the eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good, a most comforting word, that whatever there may be in opposition to the testimony, whether it be generally or in any particular place, the eyes of the Lord are there, seeing it, and the eyes of the Lord also see the good. Whatever there is that is going on with the truth and seeking to be governed by it, and supporting the testimony, the eyes of the Lord are in the place where that good is, beholding it, a most comforting thing; that not only do the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth as another scripture says, but they are in every place beholding the evil and the good, that they are there where the conditions are, the eyes of the Lord are there.
F.C.H. And the other scripture that you quoted goes on to say, does it not, “to show himself strong in the behalf of those whose hearts are perfect towards him”?
A.J.G. Yes, that is it, but there the eyes of the Lord are occupied with those whose hearts are perfect towards Him. But in the first scripture, they are in every place beholding the evil and the good. It is a most encouraging thing that in the presence of evil you may have the sense that the eyes of the Lord are there where the evil is—beholding it, taking account of it.
J.S.E. Is there any analogy in the history of the revival to these various features you spoke of earlier?
A.J.G. I think there is, I think we feel the need of continuance, the revival having commenced, we feel the need of going forward in the power of it right through to the end, and doing so in prosperity too, because God is honoured by prosperity, the olive tree in its fatness honours God and man, and then the need of loveableness as a moral condition that God loves to reward with intelligence do you think?
J.S.E. I was just wondering that, thinking of the beginning when the rigidity and narrowness of separation was to the front as suggested in the first chapter of this book, and then alongside of that, certain unfoldings made particularly on the line suggested in the book. But now in these two chapters is it not something peculiarly for Daniel himself.
A.J.G. I think so, in order to make him stable and steadfast.
J.S.E. Is that not one of our great present needs?
A.J.G. I think it is, and what is so striking in both chapter 7 and chapter 8, which is what we noticed in chapter 2, is that God is concerned that Daniel should see the end of things. He is not much concerned about the detail in between. He knows it all, and would have us understand that He knows it all, but His great concern is that we should be fully assured as to the end of things, that is the appearing is to be before us.
J.S.E. Is there some distinct suggestion in the fact that each of these chapters is bound up with the reign of Belshazzar?
A.J.G. I think that is significant because as we were saying, Belshazzar really represents apostate conditions, and therefore has a particular bearing on ourselves for we are living in days when apostasy is growing apace, for though the apostasy as such has not come, and cannot come while the Spirit is here, yet the spirit of it is abroad on every hand.
G.R.C. Would you say why in giving Daniel light as to the end of things in this vision, the idea of the throne and thrones is so prominent. In Nebuchadnezzar’s vision it was a stone cut out from a mountain without hands, but here it is a much more majestic setting.
A.J.G. I think that is to give us stability, like Revelation 4; John heard a voice saying “Come up here” and immediately he became in the Spirit and he saw a throne set in heaven and “upon the throne one sitting”, as though he was to understand that whatever was happening on earth, God has not surrendered His rights, nor has He in any way ceased to exercise control, and that is to make us stable, do you not think?
G.R.C. I do.
A.M.P. That would fit in with 1 Timothy 6 would it not, in speaking of the testimony and keeping it irreproachable and spotless it goes on to speak of the blessed and only Ruler, King of those who reign and Lord of those that exercise lordship?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. So that there is a very majestic setting out of things in this chapter: “I beheld till thrones were set” (v 9), and “the Ancient of days did sit: his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was flames of fire, and its wheels burning fire” and so on and; then “thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him”, so that we are made conscious that we stand connected with a system of great glory and power. The day for the display of it may not yet have arrived, but still the system is there to faith.
H.P. Are you suggesting that the enjoyment in our souls consciously of the end of things would help us actually to be faithful and quiet whatever might happen in the meantime?
A.J.G. Yes, that is what is in mind.
J.A.P. Would the Lord have suffered under the fourth kingdom? This kingdom described here.
A.J.G. Yes. The Romans were in power when the Lord was crucified.
J.A.P. So that it will arise again.
A.J.G. Quite so.
F.C.H. What is the force of the title “The Ancient of days”?
A.J.G. I suppose it is a title of God, only it is the Lord who is in mind. You get something similar in Micah 5 that speaks prophetically of the coming in of Christ, “Whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity”. It is God who is on the throne, but at the same time it is really the Lord, it is God in the Person of Christ.
J.S.E. Is that why the term son of man follows so closely? I wondered if it was one of those beautiful touches which pertain to these circumstances of loveableness and intelligence in the truth to which you have referred. There is no such expression in the broad setting of the first six chapters. Does not this come in for Daniel himself, and is there not something akin to it in the revival that as persons continue with the truth in the presence of evil, there are certain unfoldings for them which are distinct and peculiar in themselves?
A.J.G. Yes.
J.S.E. So that it is Daniel who had this vision, it is nobody else.
A.J.G. Quite so.
A.H. In that connection might I enquire if you would enlarge a little on why these kingdoms are shown in Daniel in such striking contrast to Nebuchadnezzar. In his case it says, “This image was mighty and its brightness excellent”, but here it is four dreadful beasts?
A.J.G. I suppose in Nebuchadnezzar’s case it was a question of rule as properly pertaining to God but entrusted by Him in His ways to man, and therefore there was glory and majesty rightly connected with it, although in man’s hands deteriorating; but this vision is rather what arises from the sea, the four winds of the heavens broke forth upon the great sea, that is to say, it is the risings up of man stirred you might say by Satan. What man becomes under Satanic influence—so that it is beasts.
J.S.E. And this is not said until after Nebuchadnezzar is dead.
A.J.G. No, quite so,
N.K.McL. Would it be in any way akin to what is referred to in Psalm 29: “Jehovah sitteth upon the flood; yea, Jehovah sitteth as king for ever”?
A.J.G. I think so. So it goes on to say, “Jehovah will give strength unto his people; Jehovah will bless his people with peace”.
G.R.C. Do we have to keep both views in our minds, the view that the authorities are set up by God which would be represented in Nebuchadnezzar’s image, but then this view of what they become and are liable to become under the power of Satan?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I think that is important, so that when at last government in the hands of man becomes definitely antichristian, so that the beast requires worship to be done to him, there is a special warning from God to people not to worship the image of the beast, but until then we are to recognise abstractly that authority is of God.
W.S.S. So that the unerring judgment of the Ancient of days and the glory of the kingdom of the Spirit on of man would appeal to our affections in the midst of such conditions.
A.J.G. Yes, I think it is very striking that while the vision is given, attention is concentrated on the end, and even when Daniel asks one that stands by, the interpretation that he gives first of all is very short and simply leads right on to the end that the saints of the most high places shall receive the kingdom and they shall possess the kingdom for ever. Then Daniel desires to know the certainty concerning the fourth beast, and then he gets further light, but even then the interpreter goes quickly to the end, as though he does not want us to be occupied with the details that come in between. His great point is to assure us that God knows everything, and to see that we are looking on to the end.
F.A.W. Is that why in verse 9 “I beheld till thrones were set”?
A.J.G. Yes.
W.C. Does that fit in with the fact that the Lord Himself was seen in the features of the Ancient of days in Revelation 1. The book of Revelation is the end, is it not? John sees Him and describes Him in similar terms to the Ancient of days here.
A.J.G. Yes, he does. And there is a strong connection too, do you not think, between this chapter and the 4th and 5th of Revelation, because in Revelation 4 the throne is seen and one sitting upon it, which is God on His throne, but really God in the Person of Christ, in the 5th chapter a Lamb comes, and receives the book, just like “one like a son of man, and he came up even to the Ancient of days” and the kingdom is given to Him.
G.R.C. Would you say a word as to the distinction between the throne in this, we might say, absolute sense, the throne of God in its essential majesty, and the kingdom as delivered mediatorially to the Son of man in the later verse, verse 14?
A.J.G. Well, this passage presents thrones, that is to say, it is a great system of administration and judgment. “I beheld till thrones were set”. I thought it was to show that things are in hand, so to speak, in God’s hand, “and the Ancient of days did sit”; of course, that involves the throne, only it says “I beheld till thrones were set”, as though the thought is to give us an idea of the great system in which the rights of God are established and maintained and that saints are identified with Him in it. Just like Revelation 4 where the living creatures and the twenty-four elders are identified with the throne.
W.C. And there are twenty-four thrones round the throne, are there not?
A.J.G. Yes.
W.S.S. And in Revelation 20: 4, “I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them”. Would that link with what you are saying?
A.J.G. Yes. I think it would help us to get a more definite impression of the reality of unseen things, for there is an unseen system close to us, faith apprehends it, and there are all the angels, a great multitude of angels; we cannot say much about the saints that have fallen asleep because we have no ground for supposing that they are in any sense active, at least we do not know anything about it; but at any rate, faith can understand that God has a great system connected with Himself, all live to Him, and the angels are there, and the rights of God are being maintained. And there is a certain reflex of it in what is going on in the assembly, that there is a system on earth, though in outward weakness, in which the rights of God are being maintained and God is being ministered to all over the world; I think we want to have our eyes open more to this spiritual system of things that is in existence.
W.S.S. So in these passages, I was struck when the passages were being read, we have the kingdom given to the son of man, but it says in verse 18: “the saints of the most high places shall receive the kingdom”, and in verse 27 that “the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most high places”. That is His kingdom, the Son of man’s kingdom. And it is a wonderful suggestion of the system in relation to the saints, is it not?
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.S.E. Does all that help us in understanding the great combination of the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke? I thought the great matter of the Son of man was prominent in Matthew where all the hatred of this fourth beast was focussed upon Jesus, but in Luke’s gospel there is a more tender view of things and it is there, is it not, where the Lord speaks to the little flock and that it is the Father’s good pleasure to give them the kingdom. Is that right?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
J.S.E. I wondered, whether those two narratives each registering the birth of Jesus from distinct angles would help us to see the two views in these two sections of the book, so that it is in what you might call the environs of the Belshazzar circumstances that the Lord actually refers in his ministry to the prophet Daniel. I think He only refers to that in the gospel of Matthew. Would it not serve to widen our thoughts and expand our feelings in relation to all that is due to Him on the one hand, and all that will come to the saints as standing here for Him on the other?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure it would, so that it is remarkable how the saints of the most high places are brought in so many times in this chapter, judgment given to them; and then the saints possess the kingdom. We have to bear in mind that this is presented with reference to the earth, the saints who possess the kingdom no doubt would be the earthly saints, but judgment is given to the saints of the most high places, that is, the saints who are identified with heaven.
W.S.S. Would there be a sense in which the saints possess the kingdom today? The kingdom of God is here, is it not?
A.J.G. Yes, I think we can see that, that while there is a great system of glory and divine administration which will be seen publicly and universally in a day to come, there is intended to be some expression of it in the power of the Spirit among the saints at the present time. It is the only sphere on earth where God’s rights are maintained.
A.M.P. Is that not why the apostle reminds the Corinthians of the fact that the saints are going to judge the world and judge angels?
A.J.G. Quite so.
A.P.B. Is it remarkable that the people of God here are spoken of so repeatedly as saints? It is a little unusual in the Old Testament.
A.J.G. It is remarkable, stressing that they are holy ones considering for what is pleasing to God in the midst of wickedness.
A.P.B. I wondered whether Daniel shone out as a saint in that way.
A.J.G. I am sure he did, beginning with his purposing in his heart not to defile himself, contenting himself with pulse and water.
R.W. Does this actually take place when the assembly is gone, but the spirit of it is actually seen now?
A.J.G. Oh, yes, quite so. This is given us to see that God has had in mind all that would transpire on the earth, nothing happens without Him, it is all divinely ordered, but the point is to look on to the end, and the end, of course, comes after the assembly has gone.
R.W. Is it encouraging to see that in these forces of evil they have no peace among themselves?
A.J.G. Well, quite so, but I think one can see how this prophecy will be a great stay to God’s earthly people who are here after the assembly is gone, because this chapter and then particularly chapter 11, which we shall not need to look at in detail, shows how the whole history from the time of Nebuchadnezzar right on to the end is accurately portrayed by God and a lot of it by now has already taken place. Nothing arises on the earth that God has not known all about from beforehand.
-.P. Is it important that the time is spoken of as an appointed time, it says, “the appointed time arrived”? I was thinking of what the apostle Paul said on Mars hill, God has set a time in which He will judge the world by the Man that He has appointed.
A.J.G. Exactly. There is nothing more assuring than that, than the sense that everything is fixed, but then the Father retains it in His own hand, and therefore the need for continuance on our part, because we do not know exactly when the time is coming.
B S. In that connection would you say another word as to leaving the detail that intervenes in the sense of everything being assured, and that God is Judge, and as to keeping the end in view, but leaving what intervenes?
A.J.G. I do not think God would have us over-occupied with the detail of what is transpiring among the nations; we are not to be indifferent to it or unfeeling, and we can see in a general way that things are working out according to the divine plan, but the great point is that all is known of God and the end is assured, and it is the end that He would have us occupied with, and so it is a question whether we love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
W.S.S. Would that mean that we are engaged with that appearing and also with the saints as here?
A.J.G. Yes. You mean we are sympathetic with the saints as here.
W.S.S. And you see the power of God is here in the saints, I was thinking of that. In the time of Absalom for example, the rebellion of Absalom, David had power in the city in Hushai and others which overthrew the rebellion. God’s power is in the saints, is it not?
A.J.G. Quite so, it is.
A.M. Does the little book that John is told to eat in some way correspond with the way we are to view things?
A.J.G. I think so. Mr Taylor has remarked on that7, that Gibbon could write several volumes on the Roman empire, but God dismisses, as only worthy of a little book, the happenings of the empires of men.
A.M. And I wondered if the bitterness and sweetness that he has to experience does not enter into our view of things specially when we think of what Satan can do as over against what God can do.
A.J.G. I am sure that is so, because there is a certain sweetness in having some understanding of the mind of God. But then what bitterness is involved in it if we at all enter sympathetically into things as feeling with God and feeling with the saints who suffer.
A.H. Is that seen in Daniel here? “As for me Daniel, my spirit was grieved in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me”.
A.J.G. Yes, and then again at the end of chapter 8, “I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days” showing that it is not contemplated that we are unfeeling in these matters.
W.S.S. Can we really come into these things without feeling?
A.J.G. I do not think we can. I am afraid one has to admit how often one is superficial in regard of these matters, but as having the Spirit of God we are capable of right feelings. Jeremiah was a man of great feeling, and Daniel was a man of great feeling.
A.W.G.T. Did not the Lord move among men in that character as feeling intensely all that was going on and yet He was with God about it all?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
W.W. It is referred to several times, that Daniel desired to know the certainty of knowing this, thus passing through intense exercise.
A.J.G. That is important. I felt that we ought to notice that, that while Daniel is given this dream and vision, that we might say is sovereign on God’s part, it says, “As for me Daniel ... the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the certainty of all this”, and then again in verse 19: “then I desired to know the certainty concerning the fourth beast”. So that while there is what we may be given sovereignly to see by the Spirit, there is also the idea of making use of those that are standing by, that is the brethren for us, and the light that shines among the brethren in the Spirit, and then as you say not simply having interest in a general way but if a certain amount of light is vouchsafed to us, then following that up, to know the certainty about it more, in greater detail.
R.S.W. Is the Lord’s injunction in Mark 13 to “watch and pray, for ye do not know when the time is” an important matter, in view of this?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so, but that only emphasises what we commenced with, the thought of continuance, but then this desiring to know, I feel sure that we could become more intelligent in the things of God than we are if there were more desire and more following up of things.
E.R.S. Do we see that in Moses, He turned aside to see this great sight?
A.J.G. Yes.
W.C.P. And in Zechariah, “Run, speak to this young man” and the frequent references in that book to what he sees?
A.J.G. Amos is asked what he sees, Jeremiah is asked what he sees, and Zechariah is asked what he sees. If the Lord were to ask us what we see, what could we say, have we got definite understanding of the mind of God in regard to the particular features of the truth so that we can say specifically what we see?
W.C. Is that the principle in Luke writing to Theophilus to put him on that line of enquiry himself, it speaks of “that thou mightest know the certainty of those things in which thou hast been instructed”.
A.J.G. Yes, that is good.
W.C. It is something for us all, is it not, not only to know the things, but to know the certainty of them.
A.J.G. It looks as though Luke discerned in Theophilus one who was anxious to follow things up so that he wrote a second book to him about the continuance of the testimony.
W.S.S. What you are saying about our following things up would be shown in verse 3 of chapter 9. Daniel said, “I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fastings, and sackcloth, and ashes; and I prayed unto Jehovah my God”; and so on.
A.J.G. Yes.
E.R.S. Is it significant that throughout the scripture here we get “I beheld”, often, and “I considered”?
A.J.G. Yes, things were being shown to him and he took notice of then and considered then, that is what you have in mind?
E.R.S. “I beheld until”. It is a sustained look is it not?
A.J.G. I think so. And if certain features of the truth come before us, and then questions are raised that result in our asking ourselves whether we really have got it quite accurately or not, why not do what Daniel did? He desired to know the certainty, and he enquired, he enquired of those that stood by, and that is to say the Spirit of God would not only give us things, but would cause us to get help from one another.
G.R.C. And does it show that the importance not only of having certainty as regards the present dispensation, which the verse mentioned in Luke implies, but certainty as to prophetic truth generally?
A.J.G. I think so, because it is all part of the interests of Christ, and the wife of Christ ought to be interested in all His interests.
H.P. Does not Paul show to Timothy that if we considered these things there is nothing that the Lord would withhold from us on the line of understanding. Understand all things.
A.J.G. “The Lord will give thee understanding in all things”. Yes.
G.R.C. Reference has been made to Luke and Matthew. In Luke 12 the Lord says “how is it then that ye do not discern this time”—the present dispensation, but in Matthew 16, “ye know how to discern the face of the sky, but ye cannot the signs of the times”. Is that what we are on more now?
A.J.G. Yes, that is good.
A.M.P. What would you say as to the Lord’s word to the disciples in the beginning of the Acts when He says, “It is not yours to know times or seasons”? Would there not be a measure of restraint in regard to our enquiry as to what belongs to the earthly side compared with what is opened up to us in relation to our heavenly part?
A.J.G. Yes, I think we should certainly give precedence to heavenly things, and what is peculiar to the assembly in her heavenly character and service, but on the other hand, as being part of the assembly which is the Lamb’s wife, and the bride, we ought to have an intelligent interest in all Christ’s interests, and as sons of God, we ought to have an intelligent interest in all that He is concerned about.
A.M.P. So far as light is given to us.
A.J.G. Yes.
A.H. Would the word in Luke’s gospel support what you are saying? In the end of chapter 24 it says of the Lord, “Then He opened their understanding to understand the scriptures”. Would that cover this?
A.J.G. It would, and I think there is this to be borne in mind that while the saints of today are heavenly, and their portion is heavenly, yet at the moment in the ways of God they are on earth, and on earth in testimony, and that brings them into line more or less with Old Testament saints in their position, and with those who will follow on earth after the assembly has gone, and from that point of view we can take up the Psalms. We cannot take up many of the expressions in the Psalms because they call for vengeance, and that is not in keeping with the present dispensation, but we can take up the expressions in the Psalms from the point of view that we, like those who wrote the Psalms or those for whom they were written, are among the godly who are on earth in the presence of the ungodly, and share their exercises accordingly.
J.T.W. Do both sides come in in the letter to the Thessalonians? Speaking about the judgment in the same chapter he goes on to say, “to which end we also pray always for you that our God may count you worthy”. He is bringing in the judgment and also helping them in regard to their calling.
A.J.G. Yes, as bringing in another interesting feature of God’s ways that, while we are given things sovereignly according to His eternal purpose, yet in the working out of His ways the saints are found worthy of these things, so that they suffer for the truth for the time being.
A.W.G.T. I wondered if both sides of the truth were covered by Paul’s expression, “while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen”. Whether the unseen word does not cover what is going on in the assembly, and also covers this prophetic line.
A.J.G. Yes, I think that would be right.
W.S.S. Mr Darby said8 that God had dispensed prophecy to us in order that we might be in closer relations with Himself, which is a beautiful remark.
A.J.G. Yes.
A.G.H. Would Abigail help in this connection with this matter? She was a woman of good understanding and she speaks of David, she says that Jehovah will certainly make my Lord a lasting house, and also speaks of him: “and shall appoint thee ruler over Israel”.
A.J.G. Yes, you mean she had understanding as to all that He had committed to His anointed?
A.G.H. Yes, she understood the place that Christ was going to have in relation to men. She had understanding as to that, is that not a feature that we should covet?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so.
L.W.T. Would you think we might seek to be amongst the Maschilim referred to later in this book?
A.J.G. Yes, that is those who are wise.
E.R.C. And does not wisdom in this aspect give us a background to see the peculiar calling and place of the church. Without some understanding of God’s ways generally the distinctive place of the church would not be understood would it?
A.J.G. No, it would not, and that was why in the recovery there was so much attention given, at first, to the line of prophecy in order to make things clear and bring into relief the distinctiveness of the assembly and the period belonging to the assembly.
W.C. What do you think it means when it says the fourth beast should seek to change seasons and the law, and in Acts it says the Father has them in His own possession and also Daniel says it is He that changes times and seasons—that is God. That is this matter is given into His hand, the time, times and a half time would mean that whatever He does in that way, God’s thoughts and God’s plan works out. He is allowed the time to do it. It is worked out in the appointed time.
A.J.G. I think so.
W.C. The times and seasons are in the Father’s hands, are they not? They are worked out in the appointed time.
A.J.G. I suppose the change in seasons and the law would be an effort to get rid of anything that bore any reference to God. I believe in Russia already they have tried to overthrow the Lord’s day.
W.C. Yes, I was thinking of that.
J.A.P. Are there not certain things which the Father has kept in His own power? For instance there are things of which the Lord says “nor the Son but the Father”.
A.J.G. I think so. I think all that seems to me to enforce the necessity for continuance; and also to direct our thoughts to the patience of the Christ. It says, “the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of the Christ”.
J.S.E. This matter of this one who attempts to change times and seasons, it is a very restricted period of time in which he is allowed to operate on this line, is it not?
A.J.G. Yes, it is.
J.S.E. And have we not to keep our minds on that? It is really allowed so that he would be righteously destroyed.
A.J.G. Quite so.
F.C.H. So that in Revelation 4 to which you have called attention, is it instructive that the rainbow is there in relation to the throne and the thrones?
A.J.G. Yes, that if men seek to change things God is faithful and the rainbow is there, reminding us of God’s faithfulness to His promise.
E.R.S. Would you say a word on “like a son of man” in verse 13?
A.J.G. Well, things were not as clear in that day as they are in our day. It is the Lord of course, but He is just spoken of in that way as showing that it is man. When we come to our day, He definitely takes the title of the Son of man.
W.C.P. There is a footnote to that in Revelation 1, it refers back to this verse showing that it was a title the Lord habitually took which made it personal, but in Daniel it was characteristic.
A.J.G. Quite so, showing that He is a man, but then it says that He came up even to the Ancient of days, or as the note says ‘he reached unto’, which I think shows that the Spirit of God is directing attention to the deity of Christ; He is in manhood, and as Man He receives the kingdom, but He is equal to reaching to the Ancient of days.
H.K.McL. Who would be the “they”? It says and. “they” brought him near before him.
A.J.G. I should think it is just an impersonal expression.
W.M.B. Would what you say be borne out by Matthew 26? No doubt the Lord was alluding to this very passage: “From henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven”. And they immediately say He blasphemed.
A.J.G. Yes, I was thinking of that, that the Lord definitely alludes to Himself as the Son of man before the high priest, and also to Nathaniel and other instances, but immediately, as you say, they say that He blasphemed, so that evidently they understood that this reference to one like the son of man really involved the deity.
W.M.B. So that it says “the Son of man who is in heaven”.
A.J.G. Quite so.
J.S.E. Apart from Stephen the term is only used by the Lord Himself is it, in the New Testament?
A.J.G. Well, except as quoted in Hebrews “What is man, that thou rememberest him, or the son of man that thou visitest him?”
J.S.E. Yes, that is a quotation from the Psalms.
A.J.G. Yes.
W.S.S. You intended to speak about the Grecian power as distinct from the Roman power.
A.J.G. There is no need to say much, but chapter 8 deals, as you say, with one who shall arise out of the Grecian power. But I was reading it more because of Daniel’s exercises, how this man’s voice that speaks to him says, “Understand, son of man; for the vision is for the time of the end”; and then to see how this power that will arise will “prosper and practise, and destroy the mighty ones, and the people of the saints” and even “stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand”. So we are intended to be restful in the presence of all that is going to develop.
J.S.E. As we continue, are we to expect to take things more on the line of compression, there are four winds and four beasts in chapter 7 but there are only two in chapter 8?
A.J.G. We get great concentration brought to bear upon God’s elect people in the last days, at any rate.
J.S.E. Yes, perhaps that is the word I should use, but I wondered if we are to follow that principle and see things more in their concentrated form. Would it not help us to be more feeling and less general?
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. And so in the end there is the king of the north and the king of the south, and there is the Roman power, the power of the beast. This power of Greece may possibly be someone who operates as supported by the king of the north, I do not know, but at any rate he has some relation to God’s earthly people in the last days. But he is broken without hand.
G.R.C. Is it instructive that in this vision the figures used are cattle or domestic animals in contrast to the beasts in the previous chapter, the wild beasts?
A.J.G. Well, that is interesting, what is in your mind in that?
G.R.C. Oh, I wondered whether these two powers were the two particularly used by God, one for helping His people, Persia, the Persian line of monarchs represented by the silver in the original vision of Nebuchadnezzar; and the other for discipline, the he-goat suggests that, the Grecian power being used all through the ages for discipline. Would it be of the same character?
A.J.G. It is clear that this power in the last days is from the Grecian empire, and it is used for the discipline of God’s people undoubtedly, but then he is broken without hand.
A.M. Would it have a certain moral application? I mean in regard of intelligence and great wisdom because it is said “it cast down the truth to the ground, and it practised and prospered”. I was only thinking of what the Grecian mind stands for in that sense?
A.J.G. Yes, you mean the great philosophers that have been? Quite so, and hence the necessity for the cross and then the Holy Spirit, which is what the apostle brings into the Corinthian epistle.
W.G.C. I was going to ask if there is a reference to the Holy Spirit in the idea of the banks of the Ulai? Is it something like the spirit of antichrist in the idea of deception and so forth, so that a peculiar place is given to the Holy Spirit?
A.J.G. I think there is an allusion to the Spirit in the fact that Daniel is by the river Ulai, and then this man, the man stood between the banks of the Ulai, as though it is a question of the truth being preserved within its right banks, is that what you have in mind?
W.G.C. Yes.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly.
W.S.S. And does not verse 18 show that we cannot take these things on in our own strength, Daniel had to be strengthened had he not, here and later on?
A.J.G. One is struck with these chapters as showing how much suffering was involved for Daniel in this increasing acquisition of the mind of God. There is what is sovereign, sovereignly given, but there is also that which is given in answer to exercise and right feeling.
B.S. Does that not make for loveableness?
A.J.G. It does, I think, exactly.
F.C.H. Had you anything in mind about the expression “without hand”?
A.J.G. Oh no, nothing special, just that the Spirit of God uses it in that way, he shall be broken without hand, as though to say God can handle things without the slightest difficulty when the moment comes, and His people are to be in the sense of that.
A.M.P. And that in spite of the fact that his power is not by his own power—by Satanic power, I judge.
A.J.G. Yes, exactly.
N.K.McL. Would you say a word as to the title “Prince of princes”?
A.J.G. It would be Christ, I suppose, as known by His earthly people.
W.C. Is there not a certain connection in the reference in Thessalonians: “The Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of His coming”? He does not use His hand, does He? Power is there, God just dealing with him in a moment.
A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I believe all that comes into these scriptures with a view to making us steadfast and determined just to go on by grace to the end with the truth that God has given us whatever arises in the way.
W.C. That shows that God is working out something Himself. When His work is finished, He can deal with these principles of evil in a moment.
A.J.G. Yes, and until that moment He just uses it to bring about in His people the right conditions that He is looking for.
G.R.C. So that really there are these two personalities the Lord deals with at the end, would you say?
A.J.G. You mean the beast on the one hand and with him the false prophet, but also this other person, who may be the king of the north but he will apparently come to his end suddenly.
G.R.C. Yes, so that while the person in whom the Roman empire is headed up comes to his end in Thessalonians, this is a different personality, but he comes to his end just as abruptly.
A.J.G. Yes, quite so. There is a certain similarity between what is said of this power whoever he is and the antichrist, but clearly it is not the antichrist because this is a Grecian power, whereas the antichrist is evidently Jewish.
W.S.S. I think what you said about feelings can be taken home by all of us, continuity of the testimony seems to be connected with feeling in Daniel; you referred to Jeremiah, and Timothy gives the same idea.
A.J.G. Yes.
A.C. Does not God use these divers powers, in Psalm 76: 10? It says “for the fury of man shall praise thee; the remainder of fury wilt thou gird on thyself”. Would we be restful in the light of all that?
A.J.G. Yes, quite so.
A.W.G.T. I should like to enquire—you mentioned that in the recovery there was a good deal of interest in the prophetic outline—whether there has not been somewhat of a reaction against that, whether you would encourage the younger brethren to give their minds to prophetic truth?
A.J.G. I think the important thing is to go on with the present truth in regard of the assembly and the Spirit, and the service of God. At the same time, the prophetic side of things is there for us, and it has its importance as evil increases, as teaching us how to be on the earth in the testimony during the present time, and it also brings us into accord with the mind of God and into sympathetic appreciation of all Christ’s interests, for the whole inheritance is His and we shall share it with Him. But the important thing is the present voice of the Spirit; if we find the Spirit directs us to the prophetic side of things, well, then, let us follow it up.
R.W. It says in verse 15 that Daniel “sought for the understanding” of the vision. I did not know whether you had in mind to say something about that, and the help that he had from Gabriel.
A.J.G. Just the general thought of his purpose of heart to follow things up. I think as regards what Mr Turner said, that it is perhaps striking that it is not until Daniel is well advanced in years, at any rate, that all this light is given to him, but in his earlier days he is concerned about moral conditions and being pleasing to God in the circumstances in which God had placed him, and that is an important thing for us when we are young. I think we have to be careful not to despise prophecy, it is all part of the word of God and it is all brought within our reach, the Spirit being the power for understanding, and if saints are suffering in the testimony, as for example, the Thessalonians were, then the appearing has particular value in their sight.
A.W.G.T. I thought it might save us, too, from careless applications and trying to make everything fit into the church. There is a more extended view, I thought, in what was said, that there is to be a background for the truth in relation to the church.
A.J.G. I am sure of that.
F.C.H. The word in 1 Thessalonians 5 as to not lightly esteeming prophecies is interesting is it not, in view of how that epistle closes, that all the saints, spirit, soul, and body, are to be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Is that not the present gain of it all? “Your whole spirit and soul and body”, he says.
A.J.G. Quite so.
A.L.R.T. In verse 26 of the 8th chapter it is said to be “the vision of the evening and the morning”. Would you just say what you see in that?
A.J.G. I suppose we might perhaps regard that as an allusion to the closing days, and then the coming of the Lord as the answer to it, is that what was in your mind?
A.L.R.T. I was wondering that, yes.
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