THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)
[p. 133] THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)
JT It will be understood that we are not considering the whole book of the Revelation, but thinking rather to stress the Lord’s addresses to the assemblies; that is to say, the plural thought; it is the idea of the assembly worked out in localities. It is also intended to look at the closing chapters of the book, where we shall find the assembly, not as here on earth, but as coming down from God out of heaven, complete. This will enable us to look at chapter 19, and the remaining chapters, especially the last. What is in mind now, is first the address by the Lord to the assembly at Ephesus, and then secondly the assembly at Smyrna. It is to be noticed that the first chapter conveys a description of the Lord Himself as in judicial garb. What is in mind is judgment, only there is the acknowledgment of what there may be that He can approve, making full allowance, too, for the vessel through whom the Lord was speaking, that is John the evangelist, as we call him, though more properly John the prophet in this book. John is told to write, and then the detail is given as to what is meant in the different symbols spoken of. So it says: “Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are”. “What thou hast seen” is the first thing mentioned, and then the conjunction, “and the things that are”, and the second conjunction, “and the things that are about to be after these”. Then the explanation in verse 20, “The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies”. Then we get the immediate word to the angel of the assembly at Ephesus. The word ‘angel’, it may be remarked, is not to be taken as a literal angel, but rather as symbolic, as a representative.
PHH Would it be diverting you to say another word about verse 8 of the previous chapter? “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty”. Did we understand you to say that referred to Christ?
JT Yes. The allusion to the Greek language would point to the Lord’s own speaking. The Lord is the One who is speaking, and He speaks of Himself in that sense: “who is, and who was, and who is to come”. That is to say “who is”, the present first, and then the historical, and then the prophetical.
AJG That would seem to be confirmed by chapter 22 where, after saying, “Behold, I come quickly, and my reward with me, to render to everyone as his work shall be” it says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”.
JT That confirms, and we have in mind to reach the end of the book, but we shall reach it in relation to the assembly intact. There the assembly is presented, not as here on earth, or as continuing the service here, but as coming down from God out of heaven. That is to say, her place is in heaven; indeed we might say, using a word well-known, she is indigenous to heaven. The first part, however, does not mean that, but gives the responsible side of the position.
COB Is there a principle in John being told to write in a book and send to the seven assemblies; it is one book?
JT I think there is. It is as if God intends to have the idea of the book in our minds, because the Bible is really The Book of God, we might say. It is one idea, only greatly enlarged from the outset.
[p. 135] The beginning is by Moses; he is the first writer, and John, you might say, is the last. Although that may be questioned, that, in reality is how the matter stands. It only stresses what we are saying, as to the importance of what is written. We have what is said, of course, but we have what is written as well.
EuR Does the Lord being seen in this judicial garb in the midst of the assemblies show that He has His own appraisement of the whole responsible history of the assembly from beginning to end?
JT Yes. He is saying something about it, but He is not confining what is presented to Himself. He also adds, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. Therefore we must consider what the Spirit says as covering the whole dispensation in the sense of ministry. We are to heed not simply what is formally stated by the Lord, but whatever the Spirit says, and that is through vessels taken up to be used of Him in the building up of the assembly, and the elucidation of the responsibility of it.
JC-S What would be said by the Spirit through them would be in concert with what is said by the Lord Himself.
JT It would be just the enlargement of what the Lord says. What the Lord says is in a few words, but what the Spirit says covers the whole dispensation.
AJG Would that involve that the Lord, in pointing out things that needed to be corrected in the local assembly, in five cases, at any rate, out of the seven, has in mind that the assembly should link on with the universal ministry of the Spirit?
JT Quite so. You say universal ministry, I suppose you mean the real ministry, not what is professedly ministry, such as we get abroad in the denominations?
[p. 136] AJG No, I mean what the Spirit has to say to the assembly as a whole, in contrast to what the Lord has to say to a particular locality.
JT Quite, or to particular localities. The word ‘localities’ would have to be regarded in the sense in which it is used in the letter to Corinth, which presents the idea of the local assembly.
Ques Would “with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” link on with the general position?
JT That would be the idea. It is every place; it shows how large it is, and how the whole earth, really, is in mind, for the Lord has His rights in it. He puts His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the earth. So the position is universal in that sense; He has rights everywhere.
Ques You said the angel was symbolic. Of what is it symbolic?
JT It is representative of the whole assembly responsibly; we are all included. That is the idea of the assembly, only it is given under seven different heads. So that we begin with one of them, the angel of the assembly at Ephesus. That is the idea of local position, and that shows us how important it is. How important the epistles to Corinth are and should be in connection with what we are saying, for the idea of the assembly responsibly is seen there! The first letter to Corinth indicates the true idea of local responsibility.
Ques Why does the Lord begin with Ephesus?
JT I suppose He intended Ephesus to represent the whole of His work; the full thought of His work through Paul.
Ques Is that emphasised by the fact that while the Lord is addressing Ephesus He presents Himself as holding the seven stars in His right hand, and thus the whole work is in mind?
[p. 137] JT And it implies that His power is in it, so that what is done is in power. So that gift has to be taken account of in that sense. It is His very best. It says in Ephesians 4: “Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men”.
LES You were referring to Paul’s link with the Revelation. Would this have a bearing on Acts 20, in which we are told that he had not shunned to declare unto them the whole counsel of God?
JT I think he takes it that way himself. Besides, the great thought in that chapter is love, showing that Paul’s ministry was carried on in love. It is not merely what one may be able to say and do in the sense of power to speak, and to lay out things, but that what is done is done in love.
AJG Would that give force to the Lord’s words, “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”? They had really fallen from love.
JT I would say that fully. Therefore the challenge to our hearts is as to what we are going on with and what we have in mind. If we are going on to the end then we want to be thus in love. It is a question of love and God is going to finish, as He began, with love.
FCH Is not Christ’s own love for the assembly included in verses 4 and 5?
JT It is the love of Christ, and everything is to be on that basis. Paul said, “The love of the Christ constrains us”.
JC-S Is it interesting that Paul in giving the Ephesians the basis for his prayer in regard of them, says, “Having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints”. That seems to be the basis of his prayer.
JT Very good, “The love which ye have towards all the saints”.
[p. 138] Ques Referring to the local position, does it emphasise the importance of chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, a chapter of love? It says: “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”.
JT Quite so. We are therefore challenged as to partisanship, involving special persons or links. We are to be governed by love in everything, and not be special in our likes and dislikes, “If I have ... not love, I am nothing”. We may as well admit that.
PHH Would it be the work of love there which had caused them to try what was false, and refuse it?
JT Surely it would. The Lord is accrediting them with that, and, of course, it is quite important that anything that the Lord can approve He does approve; at the same time. He does not fail to disapprove what is to be disapproved.
PHH I was thinking that ministry by itself is not sufficient, but we need the building up in love.
JT The building up in love, exactly. We sometimes hear that intelligence puffs up, but love builds up.
PHH Would it be love that helped them to endure? “Thine endurance”, and then later on, “and endurest”.
JT Just so.
HH Is not the Lord justifying Paul’s ministry in these chapters, in that Paul had to say in 2 Timothy that all that were in Asia had turned away from him?
JT What we have said as to this book involving Paul’s ministry would be applicable to what we are saying now.
JC-S Ephesus in particular is the peak of it, do you [p. 139] think?
JT Exactly. The Spirit of God makes much of Ephesus. We know how much He says about it, and how much detail is given as to what was involved. I thought it was very remarkable that the value of the books burnt at Ephesus should be given, according to Acts 19: 19, as fifty thousand pieces of silver. It is well to notice what was involved, and how much is said about the work at Ephesus.
SMcC It says in verse 2, “And thou hast tried them who say that themselves are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars”. Do you not think it is a commendable feature, that things and persons, in that way, should be tried or tested?
JT Just so. These are the Lord’s own words, you notice. Paul and others speak about lying too; in fact, throughout this book we shall get much about that sort of thing. We are therefore not to be afraid to speak out what is implied at any given time, or in any given case, and to say the full expression that is needed. So the word ‘liars’ is a very strong word, and the Lord is using it here, saying: “and hast found them liars”. Ephesus was accredited with that.
SMcC It would be apparent that they did not just accept everything in that way?
JT Quite so. How much lying there is abroad in the profession of christendom in what is called ministry. Hence the importance, for those who are professing to walk in the truth, of being truthful, “Let God be true, but every man a liar”, Paul says.
Rem There is a word in the epistle to the Ephesians which says, “having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”.
JT Very good, “Truthful righteousness and holiness”.
Ques Is it not remarkable that the enemy’s first effort at Ephesus was to set up a false apostleship,
[p. 140] as though to change the foundation. It says, “Who say that themselves are apostles and are not”.
JT That is a very solemn assertion. Paul says: “Such are false apostles”.
AM Paul speaks in a similar manner in Acts 20 when he says, “For I know this, that there will come in amongst you after my departure grievous wolves, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall rise up men speaking perverted things”.
JT It is clear that the word for the moment is to be truthful, and to be free from partisan feeling. The passage in Acts 20 stresses perverted things, meaning what had been done from the very outset. We need not mention a certain system that is to be thought of and that enters into this book peculiarly, but the whole system of christianity is perverted in that system. It is literally perverted in the words and the terms they use. It is now seeking to gain the confidence of Protestantism, but it is not to be trusted at all. It has the same character as ever and God is not going to let it go. He is going to deal with it fully, as this book, particularly chapter 18, shows.
WC Would the “synagogue of Satan” in Smyrna be a development of this false apostleship? That seems to go through, even to Philadelphia, as if the assembly has to face that power of opposition and imitation.
JT The word ‘synagogue’ is a religious term, and that system we have already alluded to carries it through, and makes much of it, in all the varied forms in which it is seen in christendom today.
PHH Does the assembly, as spoken of in 1 Timothy, stand over against this, Timothy having been left at Ephesus? I was thinking particularly of chapter 3 which speaks about conducting oneself in God’s house which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. Would that be Paul’s [p. 141] exercise through Timothy, as over against the false apostles and liars?
JT Quite so. Timothy would represent a feature of service wholly at the bidding of the apostle. He is Paul’s child in the faith; a man subject entirely to Paul.
Ques It says in Ephesians 4: 25, “Wherefore, having put off falsehood, speak truth every one with his neighbour, because we are members one of another”, and the note to the word ‘falsehood’ reads, ‘everything that has the character and nature of falsehood. It is abstract, what has this quality, not merely the act of lying’. Does that bear on the way in which things may appear to be true, but are perverted and give a false impression?
JT Quite so. Perverted things are the most dangerous; they are the most deceptive.
JC-S You referred to the perversion of the truth in christendom generally, but do you suggest there is even a danger among those who minister, that sometimes, in their desire to have something new, they go beyond the Scriptures and pervert the truth?
JT Yes, and especially if we have peculiar ability to speak, and the apostle speaks of that. Paul’s traducers said about him that his speech was contemptible, but, at the same time, God was using it. We have thus to be on our guard not to rely on mere ability to speak, but to bring in love in what we are saying, and thus be marked by building up things.
JTJr 1 Corinthians 14, therefore, as introducing the matter of prophecy, says, “Follow after love”.
FJF How would they discern those who were false apostles? Would it be by the Spirit’s teaching that they had received?
JT Let us read what is said about it. The Lord says, “I know thy works and thy labour, and thine [p. 142] endurance, and that thou canst not bear evil men; and thou hast tried them who say that themselves are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars; and endurest, and hast borne for my name’s sake”. Now your question is how did they find that out; and I would say by the Spirit. The Spirit is here by us all the time. He is our Paraclete here below, as Christ is that above, and therefore He is here to help us to discern what is wicked or bad in ministry.
PL Would it be particularly as the Spirit of truth?
JT As the Spirit of truth, exactly.
DJM As in Acts 5, “Why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit?”
JT Very good.
AJG Does not John himself in his first epistle give a lead in this matter of discerning the spirit of what is put out as doctrine? He says, “Hereby ye know the Spirit of God”.
JT Quite so. And then his allusions to the word ‘unction’, as we understand the meaning of the word, “The same unction teaches you as to all things”, 1 John 2: 27. He refers to the saints as having the means of knowing all things by the unction, which alludes to the Spirit, of course. But the word ‘unction’ is a striking word, and should be understood.
EuR “I have not written to you because ye do not know the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son”, 1 John 2: 21, 22. That kind of thing is all abroad in christendom now so that we need the Spirit as the unction.
JT The unction is the point that John makes in the first epistle.
PHH [p. 143] Would you just say a word about it, and the importance it has in your mind?
JT The allusion is to the Spirit, of course, but a peculiar word is used, which would show that John understood, and knew that the saints understood too, and that he could speak to them with intelligence. It is a great matter for those who minister to speak with intelligence, and to see that they know the terms, and the saints know the terms as well.
Ques Is it encouraging that even the little children have the unction?
JT Yes, it is very encouraging. It is not little children literally, but little children comparatively. The saints are first addressed as children, then specifically as fathers, or as young men, or as little children. Little children are persons who are least formed in the good of the truth of christianity.
SMcC It is striking how the thought of the lie is brought in in relation to the unction. It reads: “And yourselves, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that anyone should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie”.
JT Showing that it is not really what any brother can say in a so-called reading meeting, but it is a question of what the expression ‘all things’ covers. The unction therefore is a peculiar word, and has to be understood in that sense. All things are within the range of christian teaching. It says: “And they shall be all taught of God”, and christianity undoubtedly is the prime thought in the whole system of teaching. So that the teaching depends on the unction, and the Spirit of God is really what is meant. In the setting out of the truth at any time, whether it be in our assembly meetings, or in ministry,
[p. 144] or writings, or whatever it may be, the unction is the basis of all.
PHH Is it the anointing of the Spirit as particularly affecting the mind?
JT Particularly affecting the mind, is good, I would say that, because the Lord’s supper is the great centre of everything, it is the beginning of everything for us as to the service of God, and the mind is that which is stressed in it. It is the calling to mind of the Lord Jesus Himself. See footnote to 1 Corinthians 11: 24. That is where the mind is affected, and I believe it is the beginning of everything in the service of God.
Ques Do you think “the holy one” refers to the Spirit there? “The unction from the holy one”.
JT Undoubtedly. The basic thought in all this is the Spirit.
Ques The Scriptures would have their part?
JT Surely, because every scripture is divinely inspired, and that means the Spirit of God has to do with it.
Rem With reference to your remark as to what is abroad in christendom, John in speaking of the saints in his epistle refers to them as knowing the Father and having the Spirit; he does not go below that.
JT Then John writes his gospel as well as the epistles, and the gospel of John recognises the Spirit as bringing about new birth, which is preliminary to the truth of the Spirit received.
Rem I had in mind what you were saying about things being perverted, and I thought John was safeguarding the standard in the way he speaks of the little children.
JT You said he does not go below, but then John goes down to new birth, too.
Ques But is not that the operation of divine Persons from their side sovereignly?
[p. 145] JT But that is the Spirit. We are speaking of the Spirit, and John 3 gives you the Spirit, and being born of the Spirit.
PHH In what is said, “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works”, is there a repentant revival contemplated?
JT I would say that. But when the Lord says, “Do the first works” he means something definite and specific, that can be pointed to, not only in a general sense. I think it is very important in ministry that there should be something that can be pointed to specifically, and that we deal with specific things.
ECM Do you connect “the first works” with the continuing in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and breaking of bread and prayers?
JT Well, just so; only we are dealing with Ephesus, and the work of God at Ephesus, the failure of it, on the one hand, and what is commendable in it, on the other.
AJG In view of there being so much that is commendable in Ephesus, and yet of the fact that Ephesus is the beginning of the departure that is now so evident on every hand, would you say a word as to the import of leaving “thy first love”?
JT It is an act; it is a solemn act. We say such an one is going out of fellowship, or growing cold, but the time comes when he leaves; he takes a definite attitude, and so the Lord says, “Will ye also go away?”. We must take account of what people do themselves, not only what they say or have in their minds, but what they actually do.
AJG Do you mean that this was a certain attitude of mind in regard of Christ that had developed at Ephesus, that they had left the simplicity of affection which marked them at first?
JT They left their first love. That is, there is no thought at all in Ephesus, or in the book, of full recovery. It is what they had done, and that is [p. 146] specified; they left their first love. That could be specified, but then the Lord goes on to say, “Do the first works”; let them be specified too. Our brother spoke about Acts 2, but then we are speaking of Ephesus, and it is a question of the first works that marked Ephesus. Therefore we shall have to look into Acts 20 to see what the first works that marked that assembly were.
Rem You reminded us of the words spoken by the Lord Jesus in the question He put to the disciples: “Will ye also go away?” Peter answered, “To whom shall we go?”. He does not say, where, but “to whom”.
JT Quite so. It is a question of a Person; leaving the Lord Jesus, in other words.
PL Would first love involve the assembly’s sense of her place in the heart of Christ, and the sense of Christ’s place in her heart?
JT Well, I would rather connect the things with the saints, as to whether love is seen amongst us, I am not saying a word against what you are saying, only we have to be specific so that we can put our fingers, as it were, on the thing we are talking about, whether it is in the saints or not. We may say it is in Christ; well, that is very general, but we want to see how the saints are getting on.
Ques Are you thinking of the expression of love towards Paul in the end of Acts 20? It says. “And having said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore; and falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him”.
JT Quite so. It would be a remarkable thing that they were kissing the great servant through whom the light had come to them, but then when we come to the saints themselves we want to keep in mind what marks them. It is not simply the great apostle, the servant through whom the truth has come, but what the saints have; what marks the [p. 147] saints, and that, of course, must be involved in any word to Ephesus.
JC-S So that it is not the measuring of ability, but the measuring of what is really formed in love?
JT Just so. It is a question of what there is in the saints, really. So it goes on to say, “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works”. Well, all these can be pointed to. Then the Lord continues, “But if not, I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate”. So the Lord can refer to something that was hated at Ephesus, and that can be pointed to, also. It is not a general idea, it is some specific thing that is hated.
Ques What is involved in the expression, “But if not, I am coming to thee”?
JT I would say it is a question of the Lord coming in and dealing with some local assembly, or something in some local assembly. As He comes to us on the first day of the week in love, so He comes in, at other times, in judgment. It may happen at any time. “Coming to thee” conveys the thought that He is apt to be there, in the way of judgment, as judging sin. It is a very solemn thing. Sometimes things happen and we wonder at it, but the explanation may be that the Lord has come into a matter.
Ques Is that in keeping with the remark in the gospel of Mark, that He “looked round on all things”?
JT Just so; “on all things”, whatever they may be.
Rem It is as coming into the temple and the sphere of profession, that He looked round on all things, I thought it was an illustration of what you were saying.
[p. 148] AJG Do you mean that we are to keep in mind that the Lord maintains this attitude of walking in the midst of the assemblies judicially?
JT Quite so. Many a time I have thought of it. The Lord, in the gospels, alludes at times to His coming Himself. He comes at times; He takes His own time and we cannot say that the Lord must be there, because He says, ‘I will be there if I will be’. The Lord has His own rights, and therefore if He comes to us to judge things, He will judge them, but if He comes to evaluate and praise things, He will do that. Therefore we might connect His coming here with John 14, “I am coming to you”.
PHH Does your remark about specific things explain why sometimes we take long to get free in a meeting? We may think it is just a general state, whereas the Lord would have in mind specific details which need attention?
JT That is just what I am thinking. We are too general in our remarks about matters, whereas we ought to be specific about the things. When we come to our so-called care meetings, we try to be specific, and we may arrive at a judgment in assembly, but the Lord Himself has to come sometimes. And so at Corinth, I would say the Lord Himself came there and dealt with that incestuous man.
RB Are you thinking of Paul’s remark, “What will ye? that I come to you with a rod; or in love?”
JT Exactly.
JOS Then there is the word to Gaius as to Diotrephes, “If I come, I will bring to remembrance his works”, 3 John 10.
JT Now we shall have to proceed. In verse 7 it says, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. That is the first mention of the Spirit’s work. “To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God”. We have now come to what the Lord is promising; that is to say, we count on His promises in these epistles.
FCH The Lord said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive”. Is there not His own joy in giving these portions to the overcomer?
JT Quite so.
PHH What is the exact meaning of the overcomer, in this setting?
JT The idea of overcoming is a general thought covering these epistles. The Lord sets Himself out as the great Overcomer at the end of John 16, and also in the word to Laodicea. “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” 1 John 5: 5. We get there the true idea of overcoming, in that sense; but this is a more general idea, and covers the whole of these epistles.
HW Would you think that the gospel by John is intended to help us to be overcomers, in the apprehension of the Person of Christ? It was supposed to have been written after the Revelation, I understand.
JT Just so.
Ques Would not the man in John 9 be a good example?
JT Very good. The opposition was great, but he overcame it, and the Lord took him on as soon as He saw that. It says the Lord found him, which is very comforting and precious, and He says, “Dost thou believe on the Son of God?”. That is just what we are talking about, that overcoming is bound up with belief in the Son of God. But, in these epistles, if is more general than that; the word is not specified.
WC Does verse 7 indicate that the Spirit is on the line of recovery by being Himself the Spirit of overcoming?
JT Well, quite so.
WC Now that “what the Spirit says to the assemblies” is mentioned, an overcomer is contemplated.
JT Yes. We must confine ourselves, in the main, to being specific, in that sense, to what the Lord says, and that is what we get here, and so “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. But, the Lord says, “To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God”. It is the Lord’s own word, but He is not telling us just what to overcome means; it is for us to understand; it is there.
Ques Is it significant that it is addressed to an individual, to all who may have that character?
JT Very good-”to him”. Now we must go on to verse 8, to get to the end of the passage. What is to be said here is that Smyrna is the great suffering assembly. Suffering had come in, as if the Lord had taken account of what had happened at Ephesus and was allowing suffering. He specifies that there will be the ten days of suffering, which is a remarkable thing, and that is to save the whole position, I would say, but especially Smyrna. It is a suffering assembly, but salvation is by suffering, which we ought to recognise.
AJG Is it encouraging that while the suffering comes through means of the devil, as it says, “the devil is about to cast of you into prison”, yet the Lord has control of it and limits it to ten days?
JT Exactly; the Lord Himself has control of the devil, which is very comforting. The whole matter is under His hand.
LES Would it suggest that it is not so much a matter here of their works, but what flows out of their works? He does not say, “I know thy works” but “I know thy tribulation”.
JT That is what He says, “I know thy tribulation and thy poverty; but thou art rich; and the railing of those who say that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but a synagogue of Satan. Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison”. He goes on to set us up fearlessly, in entire independence, as overcoming the opposition there is. This is the state of things at Smyrna. It is a most encouraging word.
AM-h Would it be like the Lord’s word in the last verse of John 16: “In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world”?
JT I would say that, fully. It is almost the centre of John’s thoughts in the gospel and it is to encourage the Lord’s people.
AH-n Is that seen in Acts 9, “Saul, still breathing out threatenings and slaughter”, and the section concludes with: “The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit”? I wondered if the suffering began in the first part of chapter 9, and the divine answer is seen in the close of the section.
JT Very good. The word ‘assemblies’ is doubtful there, but it is the general idea, I think, and they had comfort, the comfort of the Holy Spirit.
PHH Is it significant, the way the word ‘life’ and the thought of what is living appears in these passages?
JT I thought of it as we were reading it, I omitted referring to that; so that it is well now to refer to the various references to what is living in the word to Smyrna, for it is a very comforting word.
PHH First of all, the Lord says of Himself, in verse 8, “These things says the first and the last,
who became dead, and lived”, and then at the end of verse 10, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life”.
JT It reminds you of the apostle Paul saying, “Having the desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better”, I believe he is saying there that we need not fear death, and we are all very prone to fear it, and to fear it too much. But we are to learn how not to fear it, as the Lord Himself said, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”, Matthew 10: 28. Therefore I think the word is very important; that is to say, we will not be afraid of death.
PHH What about the tree of life, in verse 7? Would that fit into that theme?
JT It is the full idea of life, of heavenly growth. It is taken up again in chapter 22.
PHH In the end of chapter 1 the Lord refers to Himself as the living One who became dead, and then “living to the ages of ages”. Then the references made here, including Himself, and then the tree of life and the crown of life. Is there something peculiarly sweet about the tree of life?
JT I think there is, and about the crown of life, too, because the crown refers to ourselves; it does not refer to the Lord. He said He would give them the crown of life, I think it is a word for us, and I have felt it very much. How prone we are to be afraid of death, instead of going through in the will of God and accepting what comes to us, and accepting it joyfully, because it is a question of joy.
Ques Is that illustrated in Acts 16-Paul and Silas wonderfully unafraid overcomers in the Lord?
JT Wonderful! They sang in the prison and the prisoners were listening to them, which is very [p. 153] beautiful! They were listening to them in their sufferings; but they were singing, they were engaged in the service of God, in spite of the suffering. Their feet were made fast in the stocks, and they were suffering, but they were singing, and the prisoners were listening to them. There was a regular congregation there that they did not expect.
Ques Was it not exemplified particularly in the early martyrs of this period of the assembly’s history?
JT Just so. This period is the time of the early martyrs, and, of course, the idea of martyrdom was prolonged in the Reformation. Those of us who have had part in the revival have not had much to contend with, in that sense, but the Lord may cause us to come into it unless we are awake to it. There is a terrible time ahead of us; the great apostasy is ahead of us and almost imminent, and we may as well face it.
Ques Is the full thought of it in 2 Corinthians 1: 9, where it says. “But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead”?
JT That is right. We have the sentence of death in ourselves. That is to say, it cannot be any worse. And then the joy that Paul alludes to is very beautiful. He says, “Having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better”, and, of course, that means victory, and the apostle Paul leads the way in it.
JC-S Are you suggesting that we are getting near the time when the conditions that are present in Smyrna may be repeated? The name Smyrna means ‘myrrh’. You may say that odour permeates this epistle to them, and the suffering seems to bring it out, so that the Lord has nothing whatever to complain of among them, nothing to disapprove.
JT Myrrh-yes, quite so, “If indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him”, Romans 8: 17.
SMcC Would not this particularly be of encouragement to our brethren universally, faced with the trade union matter? And do you not think it would help them to face it?
JT Exactly. And the Lord is helping them too, and giving deliverances. Some of us know well enough what it is.
Ques Is it to be noted that while the devil may cast into prison, it is that “ye may be tried”. Is it to bring out the reliability of divine workmanship?
JT Just so; and that recovery may take place, too; because the man at Corinth was recovered sooner than Paul expected it. Recovery may take place. Paul says: “To deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. But his body was saved too, meaning that God saved him. So we are told, “Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil”, and so forth (James 5: 14). So we may look for recovery on those lines.
Ques What is implied in the ten days of tribulation?
JT The numeral ten would carry the thought of responsibility. It is a complete thought from the standpoint of responsibility. Twelve is the complete thought as regards administration, but ten is responsibility. I think the Lord is saying that they are responsible and that they are gaining through it.
Ques Is there something distinctive in this promise being made to the whole assembly, not simply to the overcomer, this conditional promise, “I will give to thee the crown of life”?
JT Very good. You mean the whole assembly at Smyrna?
Rem Yes. We should aim at that in our localities.
JT Quite so.
Ques Would not suffering help in that direction, by bringing everyone into it?
JT Just so. We do not want to be out of it. If suffering was going on, we would be ashamed to be out of it, I mean to say, it is a thing to be accepted; it is a privilege. “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”, Philippians 1: 29. I am not saying that any one of us is ready to do it, only we can say perhaps a little more than we are ready to go in for. At the same time, I can see clearly that the Lord here is pointing these things out to us.
FJF Is it our testimony that causes the suffering?
JT It may be; but it may be also a privilege, because the Lord says to Peter, “When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thou desiredst; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire”, John 21: 18. I think the Lord was saying to Peter, ‘I am going to give you the privilege of suffering, of being martyred, for Me’. Peter is particularly the martyr; I mean to say, that he particularly loved, or thought of, the sufferings of Christ, but I believe it meant that the Lord said to Peter, I will give you the privilege of being martyred.
RW Is the suffering in view of reigning? The suffering here leads up to the crown of life.
JT Quite so, “If we suffer, we shall also reign”.
Rem The idea of being “faithful unto death” is very challenging. We sometimes draw back at the loss of a good job or some other material gain, but [p. 156] it seems to call for the facing of death as in the path of faithfulness.
JT The crown of life is immediately promised; but then we have just to keep on with what we are saying, that suffering unto death means that we come actually into death. This might make the thing too pointed so that we might shrink from it. Sometimes in martyrdom we have heard of these things, particular sufferings, causing people to shrink from death, I believe what the Lord is saying here is that it is a privilege to die. “Be thou faithful unto death”, that is the actual article; do not be afraid of it.
Rem The way that the Lord sets Himself before us here is very encouraging. He says, “Who became dead, and lived”.
JT He became dead; it was His own doing. He knew what He was doing; He became dead, and lived; it was His own action. We can do that, too, in the sense that we can accept death; it is given to us to die, of course, but it may be a test to us. We might feel it, and the Lord is saying here, “Be thou faithful unto death”-unto the actual article of it.
Ques Would you please open out what is involved in the word ‘faithful’. Is it to the Lord, or is it to the truth?
JT I would say, to be true to whatever principle of doctrine may be involved; to be true whatever you are committed to; take it up absolutely, in the reality of it.
PHH Does the anointing help us in this? Referring to the remark about the myrrh, there was a large quantity of myrrh in the ingredients of the anointing oil. Would therefore the anointing help in regard of the suffering?
JT I think it does. As our brother says, the word ‘Smyrna’ means that. Of course, it is designed to be put there; the Lord meant it to be put there.
[p. 157] It should thus be in our minds in a general way, that it is a time of suffering.
JOS Esther was purified by the oil of myrrh for six months, and then later she faced death.
JT Very good.
JC-S So that in this suffering there is no exit, so to speak, apart from death.
JT It is the only thing, and the Lord is saying, Be faithful to that. He does not specify suffering. He says, “Be thou faithful unto death”.
JTJr Paul says he is already poured out. Would that be the thought in mind, that he was already fit for the great change? He speaks of the crown of righteousness, which I suppose would be a similar thought here?
JT Just so. He was like an oblation, poured out.
Ques Does Stephen set out the thought of a man faithful unto death?
JT I think he does, perfectly. He is intended to do it. He is called “thy martyr”. Paul calls him the Lord’s own martyr.