THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (3)
[p. 35] THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (3)
JT We finished yesterday with an allusion to verses 35 and 36 of chapter 3, and there can be no doubt that chapter 4 opens up the position of the Son’s appointment to all things as set forth there. Here the feminine side of humanity comes into view, so that we have to consider how the feminine side is worked out in relation to eternal life and also in relation to the service of God. The operational side is, of course, in view still, and will be throughout, the subjects being taken up in perfect order. Now speaking of the feminine side, we have had it already in chapter 2, but it is taken up here clearly in relation to the vessel. The Lord is seen here as having all things given into His hands, as it says in chapter 3, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him”. So that now the Person who is the great Operator in the economy is before us, and that is the Son. The mind travels to Genesis 1 in view of all that has happened, and the area in which the happenings occurred, that is, the expanse; the immense expanse that God has opened up as the sphere of His operations. The Operator there was God; as it says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Now He has an appointed One in the Son, the Son is the Operator now, and the Father loves Him.
FNW Has He that unique place as being in the bosom of the Father?
JT That is what you get in chapter l, and chapter 3 says, “The Father loves the Son”.
ANW Then coming out into operation the Spirit elects to call Him Lord. The chapter opens with the title ‘Lord’ which is quite unusual. “When therefore the Lord knew”.
Ques Is this woman material for the operations?
JT Exactly; she is an example of the material and how it is formed, and then she begins to operate herself, she moves herself. So that the Lord is seen here as administering. We may use the word ‘administration’ as well as operation in connection with the term ‘Lord’.
FNW “My Father worketh hitherto and I work”, what is involved in that?
JT That is chapter 5 which we shall not touch by itself. The allusion is to the fact that the Father had been operating from the first of Genesis, but that the Son is now operating. That chapter opens up how the Father and Son are operating together, but here the Son is operating by Himself as appointed, as being the Administrator, the One whom the Father loves; a very precious thought.
SMcC Would the fact that a woman comes into view in chapter 4 immediately following this formal statement of the economy in the end of chapter 3, suggest in principle that one of the prime thoughts in the operations of the economy is the assembly?
JT Quite so. Hence the thought runs through the book in certain women, culminating in Mary Magdalene, the one who recognises that the Lord is her Teacher. So the Lord proceeds here carefully, because it is a careful operation. The Lord pursues the subject until He comes to the matter of her husband. “Go, call thy husband”. Of course the wife normally should be at the call of her husband, but in this case the husband is at the call of the wife. That is a thing to be noticed by wives and husbands, as to how we move together in the economy.
Ques In chapter 3: 36, where it speaks of being subject to the Son, Mr. Darby says, ‘It is the obedience of submission to His Person’. Would that feature be set out in this woman?
JT I think so; it is a subject that runs through the gospel. The Son is seen there as loved by the Father, and anyone who is not subject to the Son is subject to eternal judgment.
JSSr Are the Son’s movements to be noted here? “He must needs go through Samaria”.
JT You mean the Lord’s movements. That need would undoubtedly bear on the fact that this woman comes into evidence, because it is a question of the material that the Lord had in mind to bring about for the assembly.
SM Does it magnify the operations, in that the branches run over the wall?
JT Very good, that is from Genesis 49. Joseph’s branches run over the wall. In the woman’s mind the wall stood between the Samaritans and the Jews, but then the Lord as the true Joseph is here and the branches run over the wall.
Ques As this conversation goes on, there is exposure brought about in this woman; I suppose making room for the work of God?
JT It was to clear out the dross. The Lord works to clear out dross wherever it is, and the dross is everywhere; but then the service of the Lord is to clear it away, and she gives evidence of clearance by leaving her water-pot and going her way into the city to the men, showing that she was not afraid of them now morally; she could evangelise them. Before this it would have been quite different; for she had had five husbands.
EP Was this woman previously a subject of the work of the Spirit?
JT I do not think she is so seen; she is just in her natural state. She is a Samaritan and the Lord a Jew, but she is not long in being adjusted and that brings out this wonderful material, that a woman [p. 38] should leave her water-pot and go her way into the city and come to the men, and say, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?”. The fact that He could tell her everything that she had ever done was the evidence of it; He is the Christ.
JK Is there any thought in her coming to draw water, that she feels her need?
JT Well, she is in need, but it is just a natural need such as you might find with anybody, and the Lord was pleased to open a conversation with her. It says, “And he must needs pass through Samaria. He comes therefore to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph”. That is the historical position, and of course history has a great deal to do with the testimony. This matter extends back to the days of Jacob, when Jacob gave something to his son Joseph. But who is the Son now, and who is Jacob now? It is God, and the Son is Christ, and the material to be operated upon is the woman, just an ordinary woman, but a woman who has had five husbands, and therefore a very poor affair, a poor corrupt affair; yet the Lord is undertaking to make her material for the assembly. Following on this, we get a Mary Magdalene in chapter 24.
HB Would you say that Jesus sitting “as he was” stands in contrast to all that was seen in the woman?
JT That is true. He does not make any show. He does not make any pretence at all. He is just as He was, a tired Man. Fancy that, the Lord of glory, just a tired Man in the service of God!
JKP Notwithstanding what enters into the history of this woman, does this chapter stand out in contrast to chapter 3, showing how the work of God comes forward rapidly in this person?
JT [p. 39] It is the converse of chapter 3 really, because it is the subjective side, whereas chapter 3 is the objective side, the Father’s work; the Father’s work in love. It is a question there of the love of God, not the love of Christ exactly, or the love of the Spirit, but the love of God, “God so loved”; that is chapter 3; it is the great objective thought in God. The difficulty with this woman was serious indeed, but the Lord bottomed the thing quickly, and brought out the greatest matter as a result; namely, the worship of God. So that we may look for the greatest things where difficulties arise, because God has great things in His mind for us and He wants us to be ready for them. This woman is the material ready for what God is doing, and she is yielding, undoubtedly under the guiding hand of the Spirit. She brings up the question of worship, a very unlikely subject for her to speak of, but the Lord does not say a word against it. He only says, “Go, call thy husband”, as much as to say, this matter is so great your husband should be in it; what you are doing, he should be doing, otherwise there is something wrong.
LLP Would the scripture, “where sin abounded grace has over-abounded”, be fulfilled in her case?
JT Well, sin abounded in this woman as it does in everybody really, “for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. However sin abounded particularly with her, the Lord knew it, and He proceeded to undo everything. He was here to undo the works of the devil.
AR The woman says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”, showing how quickly she learned.
JT The thought of prophetic ministry came before us specially about twenty-five years ago and God has greatly blessed it. It was of God that the saints should take in the idea of prophetic ministry and have meetings for that purpose; they have been [p. 40] greatly blessed of God; they bring out the action of God, the divine action in prophetic service, because God would work on prophetic lines. There is so much to be known, even future events entering into it.
AAT Why does the Lord introduce the thought of eternal life with her?
JT Because that is the main subject in John, and He returns to it when the time comes for it. But then she had introduced the question of divine service, a matter that an ordinary woman would not bring up. He does not say, You should not speak of that; He takes her on at once. The Father, He says, seeks worshippers. She had talked about worship, but the Lord says, The Father seeks worshippers, and He seeks them to worship Him in spirit and in truth.
VCL Would you say a word as to why in this section which is the sphere of the Son’s operations, we get the word water, or an allied term used about twenty-four times in the verses read? Is there something significant for us to understand as to the freedom of the Spirit where the Son is made way for?
JT Very good. John has his own way of emphasising things and we do well to observe them, as with this question of water. Now it says, in verse 6, “It was about the sixth hour. A woman comes out of Samaria to draw water. Jesus says to her, Give me to drink”, as much as to say, I am in need too, I am in need of water; you give Me to drink. But then it says further, “For his disciples had gone away into the city that they might buy provisions”. Why did they all go? Why should they all need to go to buy provisions? Well, they did and left Him alone, a most extraordinary thing, “The Samaritan woman therefore says to him, How dost thou being a Jew, ask to drink of me who am a Samaritan woman? for Jews have no intercourse with Samaritans”,
[p. 41] as if the Lord did not know, “Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knewest the gift of God”. Do you know anything about that? That is in effect what the Lord says. She had seemed to know everything so far; she knew about the difference between the Samaritans and the Jews, but then the Lord says, “If thou knewest the gift of God”, do you know anything about that? that is the next thing.
GH Would that bring out the Lord’s skilfulness in the way He approached the woman? “Give me to drink”.
JT That is right.
Ques Is there anything in the fact that Abraham’s servant approached Rebecca similarly?
JT In Genesis 24, you mean. That brings up the whole burning subject, because that man, Abraham’s servant, was a type of the Spirit of God Himself. Abraham’s servant was very particular as to what he should do about this matter of water.
Ques Would you say that it is the desire of all three divine Persons, at the present time especially, to be refreshed in this way, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
JT That is right.
ANW It is striking that in view of His asking for a drink the Lord should say, “The Father seeketh”. The economy seems to bring all three Persons into it.
JT So the Lord says, “If thou knewest the gift of God”; a marvellous thing! It is said in Romans to be eternal life; “the gift of God is eternal life”.
EAL This woman does not seem to be personalised in this chapter at all. There seem to be thirteen mentions of woman; the Lord uses it just once, after she confesses that He was a prophet. The other references to His speaking to her are all impersonal. Would you help us in [p. 42] that?
JT You mean it is impersonal because her name is not mentioned? But the word woman is the point. The Lord used it in addressing His mother in chapter 2. He used the very same word, woman. It is a very noble word, it is next to man.
EAL He does not call her ‘woman’ until she confesses that He is a prophet.
JT Just so, then He recognises her as a woman, a very noble word that she is entitled to. Of course, the whole matter the Lord is working out hinges on the fact that she is a woman.
EAL When the men of the city return they speak of her as the woman; they heard her confess the Lord, they got help through her.
JT She was completely changed. She left her water-pot, giving up her calling altogether, and going out to the men. Well, now, the Lord says, You can be used. He had already said, I am the Christ. He says to her, so to speak, You say, When the Christ comes He will tell us all things, but I am He! “I who speak to thee am he”. Wonderful! It is a question of operations, the Christ as the great Operator of God, the Christ, and she is coming to that, she is coming into His operations.
JVanS Is that what the Lord had in mind in saying, “If thou knewest the gift of God”? He at once refers to who He is, and then to what He would be able to give, living water.
JT Did she know it, though? “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”. It is marvellous that He should bring that in! The greatest things are brought in, and she has to do with them.
JHP Is it significant that these remarks as to the refreshment of a divine Person are addressed to a woman?
JT It is marvellous that He does not object to her bringing up the matter of worship, though to answer it the whole moral question must be brought [p. 43] up. Persons go to places which have a steeple, that they call places of worship, yet they have no right on moral lines to have any part in the worship of God.
RP I would like some help on the feminine side of the service of God.
JT In result, the feminine side is represented in all christians, in all the saints, and the masculine side is represented in Christ alone. In full result that is the position, “His wife has made herself ready”, and it is man and woman; the Man is Christ and the woman is the assembly. That is what is in the mind of God, and in the Lord’s mind in this chapter. The feminine side is in the saints who form the assembly, and the masculine side is in Himself as Man, “For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus”, 1 Timothy 2: 5.
Ques Going back to God’s operations in Genesis, woman became the counterpart of man, so in that way the assembly is the counterpart of Christ, would you say?
JT Quite so; that is what the Lord is aiming at here. But that is especially Paul’s line, while John is operating in connection with it, bringing out the kind of material that forms it. That is what John has in mind; so that we have Mary Magdalene in chapter 20, and the Samaritan woman here, and the Lord’s own mother in chapter 2; and several others too, including Mary of Bethany, in this most wonderful book.
SMcC Had you anything special in mind in connection with the bearing of eternal life on the feminine side?
JT I think it is just what comes out here, that it is a question of living water, what He would give. She could give an ordinary drink of water, but what could He give! “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou [p. 44] wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. That is the great point to have in mind. This matter of living water comes up in the book of Revelation. Here the water springs up, but in chapter 6 we shall see the idea of eternal life in the sustenance of it is in the bread that comes down. It comes down from heaven, and the bread is Christ.
ANW Is that not the point in John 3? I think you were saying that it is His being given in John 3: 16, but the water springs up and it is on the feminine subjective side in John 4.
JT That is right. It springs up here.
SJH Why is the word become put in verse 14? “Shall become in him”.
JT It suggests the possibility of change. John the evangelist says, “I became in the Spirit”; and it is said of the Lord Jesus in chapter 1 that the Word became flesh, showing the possibility of change. So here the water changes, it becomes a fountain. “The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life”. There is some marvellous mysterious effect brought about in that something becomes something different in a person. The water springs up into eternal life, showing that here the great thought of eternal life has an upward movement; but in chapter 6 it is not an upward movement but a downward movement, the Son of man came down from heaven and gives His life, His flesh for the life of the world.
JKP These operations seem to commence with the idea of the sixth hour; and then the Lord goes on to mention that “the hour is coming and now is”. Is that linked on with the urgency of coming into what is current in the Spirit’s operations at this present time?
JT Just so. We were talking of geography in verse 5, but this is a matter of time. The question [p. 45] of time and the question of geography both come into this chapter, and all that is of great importance.
EP Would you say that eternal life as presented here is essential and basic to the enjoyment of the full Christian position?
JT It is basic just as new birth is basic to eternal life. Here eternal life is basic to the true Christian position and basic to the service of God.
SMcC We must have the Spirit to enjoy eternal life.
JT I would certainly say that. The water here is the Spirit, and it becomes a fountain; it is springing up into everlasting life.
Ques May I ask a little more about the matter of refreshment? The sixth hour was mentioned just now, which was the hour that the Lord entered upon the darkness that came upon the whole land. It was just at this hour that the Lord says to the woman, “Give me to drink”. Is there some connection, would you say?
JT There must be. You are talking about the Lord’s death and it is a question of time as we were saying, and of how God uses time. He made it, and He was the first to use it. And so the Lord’s supper came in in time, on the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread. With anyone wanting to break bread today, the moral question must come up, as to whether she or he is fit to break bread. The Lord brought it up with this woman.
VCL The woman says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”. Would that indicate that she has been born anew and therefore sees the kingdom of God? And then when she says at the end, “Is not he the Christ?” would that suggest that she has been born of water and of Spirit and has entered the kingdom?
JT Well, you might say that.
[p. 46] Ques You were speaking just now in connection with persons being fit to break bread. As we know, no one should break bread who has not the Spirit. How would you detect that a person has the Spirit, especially young children?
JT First of all, I would say, do they like to be with the older brethren, or do they congregate by themselves, which is a baneful thing for children. I would say if they want to be with the older brethren, that is a good sign that they are fit to break bread; but if they associate only with the younger people it would be questionable, because they ought to know that the older brethren are likely to have the truth. It is not good to see young people flocking together and ignoring the older brothers and sisters.
Rem I think that is very helpful, and one would especially look for it during special meetings such as these, that the young people should keep with the older brethren.
JT I would say that. It is a baneful thing to see them flocking together, nothing good comes out of it, laughing and talking, that is all, whereas they ought to keep with the older brethren.
BW We had the thought last night of discernment. Would that be seen in this woman that she discerned that the Lord was a prophet? And she discerned that she should leave her water-pot.
JT Very good, like Abigail. David said to her, “Blessed be thy discernment”. Abigail was a discerner. She was a type of the assembly.
AMacD Would you say that discernment was seen in Rebecca too? She said, “Drink, my lord!” she discerned who was there.
JT Exactly, and she said, ‘I will give your camels drink too’, a great idea. Think of a girl like that ready to water ten camels; how much water they [p. 47] would drink! But then we are in John 4, and the point here is that the Lord has the water. The woman has ordinary water and has a water vessel to carry it, but she left that behind her. The Lord had living water, and He calls it “the water that I shall give him”, because the Giver is the Lord Himself. Who can define what that water is? because it changes by some action of the Lord’s when it enters into the person of the believer. It becomes in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. That is a mysterious thing, and that happens in all of us.
EAL You have helped us to see that we cannot limit the scope of the types, as in Genesis 24 and the types of the Spirit there. Things change and develop, do they not?
JT Quite so. The question of wells comes in that chapter too, because Isaac was coming and going from the well Beer-lahai-roi. He was coming and going, as if he had plenty of leisure for Rebecca when she was coming to him. That suggests a wonderful matter; it needs leisure for that. If we are thinking of Christ as Head of the assembly, well, He has leisure for that, He is ready for us. The Lord says, I have time, I am coming and going from the well. It was that particular well at which Sarah’s servant was found. She got benefit from that well, and the Lord is figuratively seen there, and here comes Rebecca. Well, that is wonderful! The Lord is ready for her.
SM David’s mighty men broke through when David longed for a drink.
JT Quite so. They discerned the longing of David’s heart. He was once a boy at that place-at Hebron, and they discerned his longings and broke through and got the drink, but he poured it out for a drink offering.
[p. 48] Ques It says that this water springs up into everlasting life. That would be in the renewed man, would it not? It would not spring up in everybody.
JT It springs up in a meeting like this. Those of us who have come together form an area in which the Spirit of God can operate, and He is doing it at this present time. He is springing up, morally, in our minds.
WP This fountain is not only for our enjoyment but for God’s enjoyment, is it not?
JT Indeed it is. God is working out everything for His own pleasure and His thoughts are to be consummated in the seventh day of the creation; that is to say, the millennium. That is God’s day. God is going to have a wonderful time in the millennium.
WW And that is why the thought is brought in that God is seeking worshippers?
JT Exactly. The Lord says, “God is a spirit”. He never said that to anybody before. In chapter 1, the word says, “No one has seen God at any time”. Now the Lord says here, that “God is a spirit”, and that the Father is seeking those who can worship Him in spirit and in truth. Are we among these worshippers? Are we all in the area of everlasting life? Because it is to be known right here on the earth where the brethren are together. We may have wonderful times, even touching what is in heaven.
AR It says, “The Father seeks such as his worshippers”, but it does not say, God seeks them. It says, “God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”. There is a difference, is there not?
JT It says, “The Father seeks such as his worshippers”. The such; who are they? What are these people? They are persons who worship in spirit and in truth. That is to say, it is your spirit, your own spirit, but then there is truth attached to it. You [p. 49] have the Spirit, but then you must have the idea of truth. The Father seeks worshippers on those lines.
JSSr The such applies to living persons, does it not?
JT It does, indeed. You add the idea of persons or vessels.
AAT Does the Father have the first place in the economy?
JT Oh, surely. That is the order, you could not reverse the order. When you are baptising a person you could not reverse the order of Matthew 28. The order is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit; you could not reverse that order and say the name of the Spirit, and of the Son, and of the Father. Morally it must be done that way.
AR Does ‘God’ in this chapter include the three Persons in the Godhead?
JT I think so. It says, “God is a spirit”, that includes the three Persons.
AR The One who is seeking worshippers is the Father.
JT The Father is specified, but then it does not say, the Father is a spirit, it says, “God is a spirit”, “The Father seeks such as his worshippers”.
Ques “But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father”. What time is that?
JT Now. It is the present time. It has been so far approximately two thousand years. The time will cease presently, but the now is the present time; that is to say, we are in it, a wonderful time.
AR The fact that we worship God as God, which includes the three divine Persons, ought to help us in regard to worshipping the Spirit by Himself, do you think?
JT [p. 50] Yes.
BW So that the truth regarding the Spirit would enhance the service of God, would it not?
JT It would. The expression, “in spirit and in truth”, refers to your own spirit; that is to say, you are spiritual, and you are characterised by the truth.
ANW In contrast to the materialistic worship around and the false religion of Samaria.
JT Yes, the spiritualistic materialism that enters into man’s worship.
AD Would you help us as to, “we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”?
JT The access, the instrumentality of the access is Christ Himself, it is “through him”. But the movement is by the Spirit; for “through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”. The word both refers to Jew and gentile, as if God intended that there should be both Jew and gentile in the assembly.