VICTORY (2)
[p. 497] VICTORY (2)
Revelation 15: 2 - 4; 1 John 5: 4, 5; Romans 8: 35 - 39
JT The first scripture read is of peculiar importance at the present time in view of the principle of trade unionism which is so rampant in different parts of the world, especially in Australia. The passage in 1 John is of particular importance because stress is laid on faith for the victory. Then in Romans 8 the further thought is to call attention to love, as exercising our hearts, and the persuasion that believers have, which enters into our knowledge of God and Christ, the love of God and the love of Christ. Believers have persuasion, as knowing the love of God and the love of Christ, that we are inseparable from the divine Persons. But it says in Revelation 15 the victory is over the beast, “those that had gained the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name”. They are seen standing upon a glass sea, and have a song, or songs. We may perhaps incidentally touch on the idea of singing, as entering into our sufferings at this time in relation to this evil called trade unionism, and what the saints are suffering from it, like the apostle Paul and Barnabas in the Philippian jail; in praying they were praising God with singing. The idea of singing is of peculiar importance, and the Lord has helped the brethren in the use of the hymnbook, and one was impressed as we were singing here today, what triumph there is in it. It is not merely a question of our voices, although we cannot but value the service of the human voice for song. In Revelation 15, we have the song of Moses and the Lamb, and the bearing of it is against the beast and the false prophet. The word is, “having harps of God”, which belong to heaven; they are properly heavenly instruments. “And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying”, (showing that the very words of our singing are important) “Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee; for thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”. This matter of the beast, which has such a great place in the book of Revelation, seems to me to be worthy of our earnest consideration, because so much is made of it in the book, as over against the harlot. Both are to be destroyed in the judgments of God, and the question really is now whether we are able to discern which is worse or if one of them is worse than the other. They are equal in evil importance, as it appears, so that the saints are to be set, by the truth of God, against those two evils. You might say those two elements are the arch evils in the history of the world, the beast and the false prophet supported by the dragon, that is, the devil himself; and then the harlot, Jezebel. It is in chapter 17 we get her. “I will shew thee the sentence of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they that dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns”. Then as to the beast, we have the record in chapter 13. It is only necessary now, for our present purpose, to look at the closing part of the chapter, to see the character of the thing, and how it bears on the brethren, those who work with their hands. It says in verse 15 of chapter 13, “And it was given to it”; that is, to the second beast, “to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should also speak, and should cause that as many as should not do homage to the image of the beast should be killed. And it causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bondmen, that they should give them a mark upon their right hand or upon their forehead; and that no one should be able to buy or sell save he that had the mark, the name of the beast, or the number of its name. Here is wisdom. He that has understanding let him count the number of the beast: for it is a man’s number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six”. I ventured to read these passages in the book of Revelation so that the whole matter should be before us.
Ques Would there be two features marking us, one, prayer in relation to the position, counting upon God at the moment, and then as those deliverances are wrought that there should be a song raised as the result of deliverance?
JT So that there is really victory, and in order that there should be singing there must be victory, and the victory implies sufferings. It is a question of whether we are suffering, ready to suffer if necessary, and then we have our songs, for there are two.
Rem You referred to Paul; it is one thing to sing in the circumstances and suffering; it is another matter singing out of them.
JT Just so. Paul and Silas sang in the sufferings. So that it would seem as if the Lord is reminding us (we often speak of having come near the end, and that the coming of the Lord draws nigh) that the question of suffering should be accepted, the principle of it, anyway. The word is, “Because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”, Philippians 1: 29. It is given to us.
[p. 500] HW Would the song of the Lamb suggest an appreciation of the work of redemption in their hearts?
JT I should think so, and it touches you. The Lamb is a remarkable title for the Lord in the book of Revelation; it says, “a Lamb standing, as slain”, Revelation 5: 6. It draws out our affections and sympathies with Him as a sufferer, for the word “Lamb” implies that He is a sufferer.
Ques It is good for us to understand what we have to meet. It is this great system already taking form and shape that is pressing on the brethren. It is not simply a matter of whether we can be in a trade union or not, but are we not to understand that what lies behind all that is this great power of the beast?
JT Quite so. It is a concentrated or accumulated power, because it comes down from the four monarchies, as they are seen in the history according to the prophet Daniel. This thought of the beast comes down; it is accumulated. It comes down from the four monarchies culminating in Rome, and the Romish system, which implies really the West of Europe. Russia will be seen later, and also as the millennium finishes, but Western Europe, it appears, will be in mind as to the concentration of the terrible history of the beast.
Ques Do you think the power of Russia will be finally broken at the close of the millennium?
JT I think so. It is the uttermost North, and it will control undoubtedly the Asiatic powers at the end, and the Lord will deal with it Himself. But I think Western Europe is what is in mind in the beast, because the false prophet is a sort of secondary power, but having the character of the beast. The beast is really seen in the second epistle to the Thessalonians, and, although we might say it is anti-Christ, it is really more anti-God. He is against [p. 501] all that is of God in its varied features, and that, of course, raises the whole question as to what attitude we are in, in serving God, understanding the service of God and carrying it on, the Spirit of God being here to support us. We are told in that epistle that He that now hinders will hinder until He be taken out of the way. Undoubtedly the blessed Spirit is in mind, and I believe what has been brought out lately as to the Spirit only emphasises that it is the Holy Spirit, and that He is standing in the way of all this. It is thus for us to sow to the Spirit so as from the Spirit to reap everlasting life.
Ques Did you not say that no trade unionist could have a harp?
JT That is what I would say. I remember saying that in Belfast, many years ago, because the harp belongs to heaven. It is an instrument of music that belongs to heaven.
FJF “For thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”. Would that be that they came to light in the saints of that day?
JT Quite so, because the Lamb’s wife in chapter 19 is seen also with righteousnesses, righteousnesses, and they are wrought out in fine linen: “the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints”. The two things correspond.
RH Would this kind of praise as in verses 3 and 4, have any place in the service of God now?
JT I think it looks on to the coming dispensation. The militant part of the book of Revelation, I think, would come into the millennial dispensation. We are in the dispensation of the Spirit, and we have no such thoughts in the songs that the Spirit would sing, or that He would indite or that we should sing in His power. It is a question now of grace, grace reigning through righteousness.
AR Would there be any suggestion of using the harp at the present [p. 502] time?
JT It would be only in a spiritual sense, because the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, and we have to interpret what they mean. The militant side is largely actual war, because the dragon, Satan, is fought against by Michael, and that is actual war. Satan is cast out of heaven, as is seen in Revelation 12, but our dispensation precedes all this. We are in the dispensation of grace.
AR You were speaking of the harp as being heavenly music, and I wondered whether as being in separation from what is around, and particularly what you mention, there might be the using of the harp now?
JT In a spiritual sense, quite so. We can use the spirit of the book of Revelation, because every scripture is divinely inspired, or breathed, and profitable. Therefore the Revelation is profitable, but profitable by the proper use of it. So the Old Testament too is profitable. It is only a question of the way we use them.
JSE Are you seeking to emphasise that the more we are set in relation to victory over these hostile elements, the more free we shall be to enter into the response connected with the usage of the harps of God?
JT Well, because we are heavenly; we belong to heaven. We are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, so that we would use the harp in that sense. It is a question of our spiritual understanding. We use, in our book, the word Hallelujah, which is quite right, because we are using it rightly. It really belongs to the Old Testament, but we use it rightly, which we should be able to do, as having the Spirit. The wonderful fact that we have the Spirit enables us to do all these things, and I believe it is a great thing to keep in mind, that He that now hinders will hinder until He be taken out of the way. The Thessalonians are told [p. 503] by the apostle, that they knew what was hindering, “that which”. That would be the powers that be, I would say, or governments, but it does not say of that, until it shall be taken out of the way. On the other hand, “until he be gone” is an allusion to the Holy Spirit. That, I believe, is the meaning of the whole passage. The Holy Spirit will be taken away as the assembly goes away.
WmH In spite of the combination of powers against the saints, is not God to be known in this wonderful character, as Lord God Almighty?
JT Quite so. So that we go back to Abraham. The idea of the Lord God Almighty belongs really to the Abrahamic period, but it belongs to us too because God is God and He remains God. But then He is known to us as Father, not as Almighty, but as Father; but we do get it in the second epistle to the Corinthians, “I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”, 2 Corinthians 6: 18. The thought is brought into our dispensation, too, showing how we are to be trained in our minds in the use of Scripture, whether it be the Old Testament or the New, including the book of Revelation.
AR The verse in the end of 2 Corinthians 6 is connected with coming out from among them and being separate, and the promise is that He will be a Father to us. Would not that be an encouragement for us?
JT Just so, showing that the word “Father” would be carried back to Abraham. Although the idea of the Almighty belongs to the period of Abraham, yet the whole Scripture is one. We have to regard the authority of Scripture, whether it is the Old or the New Testament.
Rem Psalm 105 gives a remarkable outline of this celebration. It says in verse 1, “Give ye thanks unto Jehovah, call upon his name; make known his [p. 504] acts among the peoples. Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him; meditate upon all his wondrous works. Glory ye in his holy name, let the heart of them rejoice that seek Jehovah”. It goes over the whole history and says in verse 7, “He, Jehovah, is our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He is ever mindful of his covenant-the word which he commanded to a thousand generations-which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac”.
JT Quite so; so the Psalms come into our times as showing how God acts for the godly, so the Lord alluded to the Psalms in Luke 24.
GMS Might we have to distinguish between the beast and its image, and the number of its name? Is not the suggestion at the end of chapter 13 that the number of its name might be a most subtle thing, as it says, “He that has understanding let him count the number of the beast”.
JT Just so; and then we get a clue to this six hundred and sixty-six. It points to the super-man, like the one with six fingers and six toes in 2 Samuel 21: 20. It is the great super-man; that is the sort of thing that is developed in our times. Six hundred and sixty-six is a clue; it is just a question of the use of numbers.
GMS It says, “it is a man’s number”.
JT It is not 777; it is 666. When we get the expression, “the seven Spirits of God”, it is the Spirit of God emphasised, but 666 is the man. It would be the super-man, much being made of man. It is just what he is, whether he be a scientific man or whatever it be, he is a super-man. We must all think of that, because that sort of thing enters into the lessons of the schools, and children are exposed to it.
JMR I was wondering if Mordecai and Esther would illustrate for us those who gain the victory through suffering.
[p. 505] JT Yes, and you notice they do not pray. What they do is to fast. That is a thing to notice, for perhaps we do not do much of that. They do not pray in Esther; they fast. Esther calls upon the maidens to fast with her, and they did, and God came in for her.
JMR Would fasting be the disallowance of all that is natural to us? It has been suggested we should sow to the Spirit.
JT I do not think it is just that. It is not simply what is natural to us; it is what is right in itself. We deny ourselves of that to get more spiritual power, although the thing might be right in itself.
JMR Will you tell us the difference between what is right in itself and what is of nature.
JT A lot may be right; for example, the marriage state and housekeeping and all that, is right in itself, but we may deny ourselves of it for a time for the sake of gaining spiritual power. “This kind”, the Lord says, “goeth not out but by prayer and fasting”. In Esther there is no prayer, it is just fasting, self-denial.
FJF Is that seen in John the baptist? He was in the deserts?
JT Quite so. He would not be carried away by looking into the shop windows, and the like, looking at the fine things that nature would seek. He dwelt in the deserts; not in one desert, but in the deserts.
FW Is it the principle of the Nazarite?
JT Just so.
Rem You mentioned elsewhere, that at a time of crisis you had engaged in actual fasting. That could not be done all the time, or our bodies would die, but a crisis might call for that.
JT Quite so, I believe that fully, I experienced it myself, and I know it is true, although, as you say, we cannot do it continuously, because we [p. 506] have to go to work and all that. God tells us things that we should do. The Lord tells us, “This kind”, that is to say, this kind of evil power, “goeth not out but by prayer and fasting”. It is a special thing.
RH Would Uriah, the Hittite, be an example of one who fasted in a time of crisis in the testimony?
JT I would say that fully, although David did his best to tempt him into the opposite, showing how one of the leaders amongst us might be capable of that sort of thing, because David was a leader.
JC-S Do you think, if we felt the gravity of the present position to which you have been referring, that it would lead us to desire to fast so that we might get an increase of power in relation to the matter?
JT Yes. It might be a special thing that is needed. You feel it is needed, and you deny yourself of things that are in themselves right. If they are wrong, of course, then they should be given up anyway, but it is things that are in themselves right that are denied.
AM Paul speaks about buffeting his body (1 Corinthians 9: 27). Was that a continual exercise with him or would it cover special matters?
JT He says, “I keep under my body”; that is to say, he did not give it any rein; it did not govern him. That passage is remarkable. Paul said he had a right to certain things, but he denied himself of the right. He says, he had a right to lead about a sister as wife, but he denied himself of that; whereas Peter did not. Peter had a wife.
JAC Cornelius says, in speaking to Peter, “I had been fasting unto this hour, and the ninth I was praying in my house”, Acts 10: 30. We have both together there.
JT Yes, showing that Cornelius was building up a memorial for himself in heaven even before he got [p. 507] the Spirit, which is a most remarkable thing. That is what the angel tells him. He was building up a memorial for himself, by his fasting and almsgiving and prayer. I think we should not forget the almsgiving.
Rem We have to come on to John for the faith position.
JT That is right. The point in the verses in 1 John 5 is faith. It is a question of faith, for the victory is to those who have faith. “For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith”. We have already had fasting and now the question is faith, and whether we are doing things in faith. It is a dispensation of faith, according to the word in 1 Timothy: “God’s dispensation, which is in faith”, 1 Timothy 1: 4.
WmH Would the thought of “our faith” have in view the whole system that is now real to faith and in which we have our part?
JT I think so, because it is the dispensation of faith, “God’s dispensation, which is in faith”, it says. This is the time of it; we are in the time of it. In the millennium we shall not be in the time of it; it will be a time of sight, but now it is the time of faith.
FJF Does that enter into all the service, on the Lord’s day morning, for instance?
JT I think so. It is the time of faith, and the Spirit comes in to add His help to us, so that the thing becomes in power.
GMS Is there a double victory suggested in verse 4? “This is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world”?
JT Showing it was stressing the idea of faith, “This is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith”. The stress is on our faith. That is to say, it is the christians’ faith, not [p. 508] simply faith as in Hebrews 11, but our faith, the christians’ faith. It is the faith that we as christians have, or ought to have, that gets the victory over the world.
Ques Does that bring in the subjective side of the truth with us? You were referring to that this afternoon.
JT Quite so. It is the subjective side, because the Spirit is here. The great feature of subjective truth, is the presence of the Holy Spirit here, and He is here to stay until the coming of the Lord. Then He will quicken our mortal bodies, which is apparently His last great service to us.
JSE Are there two parts to this matter of the victory in this section? “This is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith”. Then the question, “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” Is there the past sense of victory and then the present sense of it?
JT Well, I suppose you might say it is double in that sense. The passage is entitled to it.
HKR What distinction do you make between faith that is mentioned here in 1 John and the faith in Hebrews 11? “Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”.
JT “Our faith” is the point here. Hebrews 11 speaks of faith by itself, beginning with Abel and running down through Abraham to the end. It is not our faith there, but what we have here is our faith.
JC-S Are you thinking of what is proper to christianity?
JT That is right.
WmH You referred in Glasgow to the abstract thought in John. Would that be seen in the expression, “for all that has been begotten of God ...”
[p. 509] and then the personal in verse 5, “Who is he that gets the victory?”
JT You mean “all” and “Who is he?”; quite so. Whoever it be, therefore it is abstract. The brethren would do well to study the thought of abstract, because this epistle is peculiarly the epistle that helps us, as to the idea of the word ‘abstract’.
Ques Does the thought that Jesus is the Son of God bring another world into view?
JT Quite so. And what is for the Father in it.
WmH And His peculiar glory is that He has the power of resurrection.
JT Quite so, I think we noted in Glasgow, that the idea of sonship is not used by John at all, until we come to Revelation 21. It is more the children of God, but the Son of God, the sonship of Christ, of course, comes in here. Sonship as to us does not come in until we come to Revelation 21; that is the only place where you get sonship applied to us. It is applied to the Lord Jesus in the gospel of John, and here.
JC-S Is the victory leading on to the realisation of eternal life?
JT Well, I think so, because the chapter ends with that, “He is the true God and eternal life”. The great end of the epistle is that Christ is the true God. But there is what is additional to that, and that is eternal life, showing the greatness of eternal life and how immense it is as a blessing for us, so that we should go in for it and lay hold of it. It is not an additional title of the Lord Jesus, but it is simply that He is it, “He is the true God and eternal life”, “The true God” is a title, but “eternal life” is not a title; it is just a thing, a blessing. Certain ones, many years ago, said that eternal life was a Person, but it is not a Person at all. It is just a blessing, or a thing, that marks the Lord Jesus, that He is it. He is it to our souls as we know Him. It [p. 510] is presented in a Person, of course, it is in Christ, but that is not the idea of a Person. There is no such thought in Scripture as the personality of eternal life.
HW Is the thought that the saints are thus brought into a circle of things or a sphere of things, where death cannot enter and the enemy cannot touch? Is that the thought of the victory here connected with 1 John 5?
JT Just so. That is what I would say. We are brought into a circle where evil cannot come.
HW And this is to be enjoyed as the saints are together?
JT I think so, in the abstract. As we have been saying, the Spirit of God being in us is the means of it. It is quite possible because the Spirit of God is in us. He is in us and with us. He is in us personally, but He is with us as in the assembly, and that is what we may enjoy on the first day of the week, because the Spirit is here with us in a collective sense.
HW Is it dependent upon conditions amongst the saints, brethren dwelling together in unity?
JT It is. Quite so. So that purity and righteousness enter into it peculiarly.
FJF Is resurrection the glory of God? Does that bring the new world before us? I was thinking of what the Lord said to Martha, “Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?” John 11: 40.
JT I think if you say the glory of God is the resurrection, you will have to go further and think of our going into heaven. Martha refers to the resurrection in the last day. She believed what we might call orthodox truth, but the Lord was going further than that. He was telling her about other things, so that He says, “Every one who lives and believes on me shall never die”. That is to say, the [p. 511] living persons, those who are alive and remain, they shall never see death. But then the assembly comes down from heaven having the glory of God, in Revelation 21, “having the glory of God”. That is a further thought; the assembly has that.
FJF That is very helpful.
JT We may proceed now to the passage in Romans 8, so that we may see how we should be persuaded of things. We began to read in verse 35, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? According as it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter. But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us”. And then the persuasion, “For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”, I think it is wonderful to be able to dwell on that! The persuasion that the apostle touches on here.
Ques Does the use of the word “persuaded” mean that it is something he has arrived at through experience with God?
JT The word ‘persuasion’ is wonderful, I think. It is what a spiritual man arrives at in his own mind, because of facts that he is acquainted with or surrounded with. That is the one thought that is in mind in proposing this passage.
FJF So he is in perfect victory, would you say?
JT It is really a challenge; “Who shall separate us?” It is a challenge to the whole universe; that is the way the apostle would speak of it, I would say. Who shall do so? It is a challenge that a [p. 512] spiritual man ought to be able to make, because of his persuasion of the facts that he knows, through the gospel and through the ministry of the Spirit, and what he finds in the assembly really.
JC-S Do you think it is the lack of this persuasion in the soul that often accounts for much indefiniteness in regard of the truth?
JT Just so. Perhaps you will illustrate indefiniteness.
JC-S Sometimes you see young people coming into the meeting, they, break bread and they go on, and attend the meetings, but there is really no definiteness in their course, and indeed in that of some older ones too. Does that not indicate a lack of this persuasion in the soul? Is it not as a great lever, affecting us so that we are given over to divine things in result?
JT Yes. So that it is not simply that you can record the doctrines, or count up the doctrines of the truth that we hold, but that we are persuaded of the facts that they present, and that nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. That is where it is.
JC-S And has that not a great influence upon the mind, the affections and the ways?
JT Quite so, “The love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”. It is a dual idea, the love of God and the love of Christ. But it is the love of God “which is in Christ Jesus” here. That is where the love is.
CFI Does the suggestion that we more than conquer emphasise the victory?
JT Just so, “We more than conquer through him that has loved us”. It is a question of love, in Christ or in God, and, I might add, in the assembly too, because the love is there. We have the love of the Spirit also, in Romans.
[p. 513] Ques Had Paul arrived at this persuasion through suffering too? “For thy sake we are put to death all the day long”. He had entered into that, had he not?
JT Quite so.
Rem I was thinking of the real suffering that some of the brethren have had to meet in facing trade unionism. All that would give them great liberty and joy in the love of God.
JT Yes, “To you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”, Philippians 1: 29.
WH-l Would “more than conquer” be suggested in “passing through the valley of Baca, they make it a well-spring”, Psalm 84: 6?
JT I would say that, fully. “They make it a well-spring”. We are reminded of John 4, “springing up into eternal life”.
JF Is this thought of victory seen in the Lord personally? In John 16 it says, “In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world”.
JT Quite so, showing that He is our Leader in conflict. He is our Leader in suffering, and in conflict; and that really enters into all that is said about Him in Revelation as a Lamb. He is a sufferer in Revelation; “a Lamb standing, as slain”.
CAI You spoke earlier of our inseparableness from divine Persons and their love. Would this involve the true knowledge of God?
JT Quite so, the knowledge of God and of Christ too. So that it becomes a question of our laying ourselves out to know God and to know Christ. I believe Ephesians 3 is the leading chapter to point out to us the love of Christ and the love of God.
GMS Would you say a little more on that [p. 514] point?
JT If you read in Ephesians 3, it is well worth reading, beginning with what Paul says when he speaks of bowing his knees to the Father.
GMS Ephesians 3: 14. “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”.
JT That is what I would say is the unique chapter, for it treats of the love of God and the love of Christ. It is presented to us in one who appeals to the Ephesians that they might know his knowledge of the mystery. He says, “My intelligence in the mystery of the Christ”. That implies that he had full knowledge of the mystery. He was a sufferer; he speaks of being a sufferer in those chapters.
AM Is not the acceptance of suffering one of the primary elements of the kingdom? I was thinking of the teaching of the Lord in Matthew 5. He says, “Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness”; and then “Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you”. May we be liable to forget these principles in accepting the mercy and grace that is bestowed on us through the gospel?
JT Yes, quite so. There are many occasions of blessing, but really it comes down to “Blessed are ye”; that is, those to whom He was speaking, and, of course, the word comes to us tonight. He is [p. 515] speaking to us, every one of us here tonight. He is speaking to us on the point of victory. Whatever the consequences may be that we have to endure, there is victory for us.
DJM Is Paul in the gain of it, before Agrippa, when he says, “Such as I also am”?
JT Just so, “Such as I also am”. So that we have here sufferings in dealing with the antichrist, and sufferings which are involved in the idea of having faith, in John’s epistle, and now here in the epistle to the Romans, the persuasion of Paul as to the love of God and the love of Christ, that nothing could separate us from them. It is a challenge to the whole universe, that nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
GMS Paul challenges seven things in connection with Christ’s love, and ten in connection with God’s love. May there be an indirect link between that and the Revelation, where it says of the beast he had seven heads and ten horns?
JT There is peculiar interest, it seems to me, attached to what we have said about Revelation, because we are face to face with this matter of the beast. Our young people do well to take notice of it, and as to the way out. The way out is by suffering, and the Lord’s presence with us to comfort, and support us in it; and then that nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Divine love is active toward us, and nothing can separate us from it.
WHK Would the love of Christ be enjoyed in a peculiar way in sufferings in relation to the testimony? I notice it says, “tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword”, which would relate to circumstances here, whereas the love of God relates to matters outside [p. 516] of circumstances here, principalities, powers, life, death, and so on.
JT So that we are covered in that way, as they say in insurance circles, we are covered. We are covered against all these eventualities by the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
JSE In pursuance of this, that the Lord is with us, would you be free to say a word about the four men loose in the fire and the form of the fourth like a son of God, according to Daniel 3?
JT That would show that in the sufferings that we have to go through, the Lord is with us. He takes His place with us in them. So the appearance of the fourth, it is said, was as a son of God; we can see ourselves that it is meant that it is the Son of God.
Ques You were speaking of the challenge. Would you see that in the answer that Hezekiah received from Isaiah, saying to the Assyrian, “The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn”? It is not a simple negative overcoming?
JT Quite so, and then the angel going out and destroying the one hundred and eighty-five thousand of the Assyrians, showing how God is in our favour. We have therefore nothing to fear. The Lord says, “Fear not them which kill the body”, but then He adds, “but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”; that is the one to fear. We need not fear the combinations of trade unionism and all that enters into the beast, because God is with us in it. There are those in the chapter we read who are overcomers of the beast and the number of his name; they are overcomers.
Ques Do we get the acceptance of the position in verse 36: “According as it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter”? That is the position [p. 517] which they have accepted, and then you were referring to the place we have in the love of God, and the love of Christ, and that we are covered by that.
JT Quite so, “In all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature”,-there is a challenge throughout the whole universe as to all this-”shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”.