THE INTRODUCTION OF THE GOSPEL AMONG THE GENTILES (3)
[p. 293] THE INTRODUCTION OF THE GOSPEL AMONG THE GENTILES (3)
Acts 11: 26; Acts 12: 1 - 25; Acts 13: 1 - 12
JT These passages are read so that we might continue our examination of the book in relation to the progress of the truth of the gospel and, I might say, of the assembly. The end of chapter 11 was read to call attention to the name christian being given to the disciples, for that is an important matter. It was not simply intended to be the name of merely baptised persons, professed christians, but real christians. Then in chapter 12 it is in mind to call attention to Peter’s testimony and service, and particularly to call attention also to the youth, young persons being brought into the service, represented in Rhoda. It is an important matter to be considered, that young people should be ready for service, whatever it may be, but service to promote the truth. Then there is also, in this chapter, Peter’s incarceration in prison by Herod, and it may be remarked that his deliverance from the prison was an act of the Lord. The suggestion that his sleep was an element of weakness, or want of devotedness is not right; the Lord gave him sleep, and the Lord delivered him out of the prison, sending His angel to do so. His sleep thus is in no way a type of death, but is a symbol of what might be enjoyed by any one of us; some of us have been glad to get it during the past night. It is a question of rest, which God graciously, as Creator, provides for us. So that in a sense Peter’s incarceration or imprisonment is a credit to him. He was suffering in the prison, as in the truth, as a testimony to Christ. Then from chapter 13 it is in mind to bring out briefly the position of the Holy Spirit as sending out the servants. Instead of the Lord doing it as He did with the twelve, the Spirit does it. He sends out the servants, according to the word, “The Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go”. Another thing that is in mind is to call attention to the sinner who opposed the servants of God. This man called Elymas the magician, became blind for a season, pointing evidently to the restriction on the Jews as over against the release of the gentiles. The gentiles are brought into the truth of the gospel; whereas the Jews are blind for a moment, although they will be restored or brought back later. These are the thoughts that are in mind to speak of at this time.
Ques “First called christians in Antioch”; is that a divine calling?
JT It is simply their name, christians. They had been under the instruction of Paul and Barnabas for a whole year, and acquired the character that is implied in the word ‘christian’.
Ques Was it what was seen in them?
JT I would think that. It was no mere profession; it was a real thing. It has to be noted that it was after a whole year’s instruction by these two servants, Paul and Barnabas.
Ques Was it what men called them?
JT It is just an abstract thought, without stating who called them. They were called christians instead of Jews or Greeks or whatever they might be.
Ques Is it the substantial effect of the teaching?
JT I would think it is just that; the teaching is involved in it.
WC Would the idea of suffering as a christian in 1 Peter 4: 15, confirm that? “Let none of you suffer indeed as murderer ... but if as a christian, let him not be ashamed, but glorify God in this name”.
JT [p. 295] Just so.
RWS Does this bear upon those who can help, being in their local position? “For a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd”. There is the custom of those who can help moving about a good deal, but may there be the need of some of us staying at home in our localities?
JT Just so. You mean they were a long time in this locality? It is remarkable that it was a year, and that it was in the assembly, as if the assembly were the sphere of it.
WBH Would the word “christian” be the right kind of renown?
JT Well, if you call it renown, just so. I think we ought to dwell a little on the fact that they were in the assembly, the believers were taught in the assembly. That is to say, the idea of the assembly was in mind in the teaching. “And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly”. We should notice that, it is not simply in a building, it is in the assembly, the idea being that the assembly is the environment in which they were taught. They “taught a large crowd” and so forth. And then we have the statement, “the disciples were first called christians in Antioch”. I think we have to note all these items to get the full force of the statement.
SMcC What would correspond with teaching in the assembly now?
JT It would be in our local places, if there be gift and the like, but having the assembly in mind, that is, the assembly is the sphere for it. It is not simply that we gather in a building, but we gather in the sense of the assembly, so that the teaching would take on that character and have the assembly in view.
EuR By extension, would not this apply to an occasion [p. 296] of this kind?
JT Yes, but this is a local matter, of course. Here, there are a lot of people, far beyond what is suitable in a local position. At the same time it is a special gathering and it is for the purpose of receiving instruction, or teaching, and we have the assembly in mind.
FJF Has the mid-week meeting helped us in this regard to come together as an assembly in a city?
JT Just so; you might extend it to that extent, in that sense.
CAI Would the idea of the whole year involve the four seasons entering into the matter?
JT Very good. Sometimes Paul speaks about spending a whole winter with the saints. “Perhaps ... even winter with you”, 1 Corinthians 16: 6. It shows that he would spend the time that would be uncomfortable and inconvenient; whereas here it is a whole year; that is to say, all the different seasons.
FCH Would you say a word as to the spontaneity of the work at the beginning? I was thinking of verse 20, “But there were certain of them, Cyprians and Cyrenians, who entering into Antioch spoke to the Greeks also, announcing the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus. And the Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord”.
JT The Lord’s hand was with them, of course. It was spontaneous, but the Lord’s hand was with them; so the Spirit of God, of course, was there. If we use the word ‘spontaneity’ we must remember that it is not simply what goes on in ourselves, it is a question of what the Spirit of God is doing with us, or in us.
AJG God Himself using the persecution to spread the work?
JT Quite so. And then the addition of Barnabas and Saul. It says, “And the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly”-that is another thing to notice, that the assembly has ears, which is a figure, of course. The report “reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go through as far as Antioch: who, having arrived and seeing the grace of God, rejoiced, and exhorted all with purpose of heart to abide with the Lord; for he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith; and a large crowd of people were added to the Lord”. And then “he went away to Tarsus to seek out Saul”. We thus have Saul brought into the work, and the work going on for a whole year with Barnabas and Saul in it, and then the result is that they were called christians there. It is as if the character of christianity was expressed in them through the teaching of Paul and Barnabas.
Ques Does the word ‘christian’ imply that the anointing was in evidence?
JT I would think that. The word ‘christian’ in Acts 11 would, but in the habitual use of it today among the nominal christians it does not always imply that. It does not imply reality now at all.
NKM “The disciples were first called christians in Antioch”. Would that have a public testimonial bearing?
JT Just so. The word ‘disciples’ would mean that they had been learning or appropriating the teaching of Paul and Barnabas; they were being formed by it.
EAL I think you put it earlier, ‘disciplined by the truth’. The disciples were those disciplined by the truth.
JT Quite so. Disciples are persons who are subject to a given teaching.
FJF Is there a reproach in that they were not first called christians in Jerusalem? Had the heavenly character come to light?
JT [p. 298] Not yet. The word reproach perhaps, is a little severe because the work of God had been going on in Jerusalem until the time of Stephen.
Rem The assembly there is accredited with having ears, as you have remarked.
JT I think it is important to notice it.
Rem So that in all our meetings we have the assembly in view.
JT Well, the question is, whether we have. Of course, at a great meeting like this we are gathered from all parts of the world to be here and to get instruction, we hope. But what is in mind is that we should be taught in the truth of the assembly.
EBMcC Would not the truth of the assembly bring about subjection? That is, they would be christians not in name only but in truth.
JT I would say that. The idea of subjection is there. We are enjoined to be subject; of course subject to the Lord, but subject to one another too; the principle of subjection is a great matter.
AJG And especially seen in the divine thought as to the assembly as subjected to the Christ?
JT Quite so. The whole passage in Ephesians 5 would point to that, and especially the wives. They are to submit themselves to their own husbands, but then the husbands are to love their wives. Then, as you say, the assembly is subjected to the Christ. She is not simply subject, but subjected, that is to say, it is the mind of God for her.
FGC Is that thought of subjection amongst the brethren themselves seen in the composition of the company in Acts 13: 1?
JT Quite so. We are to be subject one to another, and not only subject to Christ. But the principle of subjection is the thing to get into our minds, the principle of it.
HFN Would this connect itself with the whole year that elapsed before the tabernacle was set up?
[p. 299] It says of Bezaleel and Aholiab that it was put in their heart to teach. Would it correspond with that?
JT Do you mean that the people were ready for Paul and Barnabas, and that there was the principle of subjection to teaching?
HFN Yes, and also the fact that there was a whole year after the people came out of Egypt, during which the construction of the tabernacle proceeded, corresponding with this whole year of divine teaching bringing in assembly conditions.
JT I think that is very good, a whole year, showing how much teaching is needed in regard of the assembly. We can never say we are complete in the instruction as regards the assembly.
JTJr In 1 Corinthians 11: 2 it says, “As I have directed you, ye keep the directions”. That is the way the chapter begins.
JT That shows that they were subject. They were keeping the directions and being subject to the principles, I would say.
Ques Is there any significance in the expressions, “Now in these days”, in verse 27 of chapter 11, and, “At that time” in verse l of chapter 12? I was wondering whether it showed that something definite had been arrived at in the development of the truth, and then we have definite opposition to it in the next chapter.
JT Just so. The whole of chapter 11 would indicate that the truth was in progress. There was progress being made through the activity of the Spirit in the teaching. Chapter 12 is to bring out the opposition to that. The whole chapter really has in mind opposition, showing to us how we must be prepared for opposition if we want to stand firmly by the truth. Then we have the thought of getting young people into it, such as Rhoda. She stands by the truth that she announced, even under opposition, and that is something that the young people should [p. 300] be reminded of. How old she was we cannot say, but she was evidently young.
Ques Knowing and recognising the voice of Peter?
JT Exactly, and standing by it too, although she was really under persecution. They said she was mad.
HWA They put her in good company, did they not? I was thinking in John 10: 20 they said of the Lord that He was mad, and in Acts 26: 24 Festus said to Paul, “Thou art mad”. Mr. Darby once said that we are not nearly as consistent as we might be in madness.
JT That is good. We have to be, as it were, prepared for such feelings against us, that we are mad. They said of the Lord that He was out of His mind (Mark 3: 21).
Rem The “voice” in verse 14 brings out what is before the mind. One was wondering whether the younger ones would not be helped if they set their minds on these things.
JT That is what we are aiming at from yesterday morning about sisters, and now young people too, whether they are brothers or sisters. This was a sister, called Rhoda, and she stood by what she saw was the truth; whatever it was, she stood by the truth.
PL And in a fragrance of spirit, could we say, suggested by the meaning of her name, ‘rose’?
JT Just so.
APB Do you think then that there is something peculiarly precious to divine Persons in youthful freshness, where there is, perhaps, something lacking in what professes His name?
JT Well, just so.
FJF Why did she not open the door to him?
JT She was wise, I should think. It was a time of fear, as in John 20 where the doors were [p. 301] shut because of the Jews. It was a time of fear of opposition, and I suppose she was wise in doing that, but, at the same time, she contended that what she said was true, and that it was really Peter.
Ques Was there any reason why Peter went to the house of Mary rather than to the assembly?
JT They were at prayer, and I think honour is given to that, to the prayer that was going on there. It says, “Where were many gathered together and praying”. I assume it was what we call a prayer meeting at the house of Mary.
Ques Was that an additional one, do you think, to what is said earlier? It says so emphatically, in verse 5, “Peter therefore was kept in the prison; but unceasing prayer was made by the assembly to God concerning him”. And yet in this verse that I am alluding to it is a question of his returning after his release to this particular house where they were also praying, “Where were many gathered together and praying”.
JT You mean that there are two prayer meetings alluded to? That is very good; there were two of them, I was only referring to one of them, the last one, and undoubtedly God honoured the prayers that were rising up to Him at that time. It is the general thought of prayer, and they are especially praying for Peter.
Ques Would this in any way indicate that those who are prevented from meeting with us in the meeting for prayer should be engaged in this same way in their households?
JT Very good. Let us be engaged in it at all times, for we are told to “pray without ceasing”, 1 Thessalonians 5: 17.
Ques Would you say there was a lack of faith here with those praying?
JT There probably was, because they did not believe it was Peter; at the same time. God is [p. 302] honouring it, I believe God is honouring it at this particular juncture, so that it is a thought that should be before us now as we are considering the book of Acts in relation to progress in the truth.
Ques Would there be anything in Rhoda recognising the voice of Peter?
JT I think so. We have already referred to his mouth, and now we have the voice of Peter. A person’s voice really is himself, in a certain sense; we discern the voice. We often say the Lord’s voice is in it, or the voice of God is in it, and so forth. It is really representing the person, and in this case they recognised Peter, and, of course, they ought to know Peter’s voice. He was the leading apostle up to this time, and he had spoken to them many a time, doubtless. We should therefore be able to discern the voice of a leading servant.
SMcC Would you say a word as to the first half of the chapter in relation to Peter and his imprisonment and what he would represent.
JT As far as I see it, he is a sufferer, but he was not overcome by his sufferings. He was asleep between two quaternions of soldiers; there is no discredit in the fact that he sleeps here. He was sleeping and it was quite right, for it is something of God that is good for us. The Lord Himself slept.
PL “The sleep of a labouring man is sweet”, Ecclesiastes 5: 12.
JT Just so. And what I am afraid of is putting interpretations on things that are not just warranted, and yet they may appeal to some who think they are very nice because they are novel; but they are sometimes not true at all. So that it is not true that it was a discredit to Peter that he was asleep.
Ques Would he have the value of the Lord’s own word to him, “When thou shalt be old”, John 21: 18? Would that give him a [p. 303] certain restfulness and save him being too apprehensive just at this juncture?
JT Quite so. He was not afraid to die, of course. From all appearances he was at the point of death, but he did not die. The Lord delivered him; and that is what a servant may expect.
Ques Has the blessed Spirit His part in these restful conditions as seen in Peter, as it says, “Blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you”, 1 Peter 4: 14.
JT That is very good.
Ques Would it illustrate the Lord’s words, “I leave peace with you; I give my peace to you”, John 14: 27.
JT Well, quite. “I leave peace with you; I give my peace to you, not as the world gives do I give to you”. Then He says, “Rise up, let us go hence”.
FMcE “I laid me down and slept; I awaked, for Jehovah sustaineth me”, Psalm 3: 5.
JT Very good.
AB-e Is this sleep in contrast to Peter sleeping in the garden?
JT It is. That was a poor thing to fall asleep when the Lord Jesus was about to die. They were not with Him in His sufferings.
AB-t Would it be restfulness in the sense of divine care?
JT That seems to be the truth of it. He is restful in the sense of divine care, and, sure enough, the care was shown to be there, and he was delivered.
Ques In Hebrews 11 we read of those who through faith “died by the death of the sword”, and also those who through faith “escaped the edge of the sword”. Is the first seen in James and the second in Peter?
JT [p. 304] That is good. So that we are not justified in saying that there is anything detrimental in Peter sleeping here.
Ques Had not the Lord indicated by what death he should glorify God?
JT He had. Apparently he lived a considerable time after this, I would say he lived to be about seventy.
Ques What would be the import of the smiting of Peter’s side?
JT I suppose he would be reminded of the Lord’s death; it was intended that he should be. It says of the Lord in John 20, “he shewed unto them his hands and his side”. The Lord called attention to that Himself, and I suppose the allusion would be that Peter was suffering now. The angel smote him on his side, as much as to remind him of that and that the Lord suffered too, “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake”, Philippians 1: 29.
NKM What is the significance of the angel of the Lord being brought in here?
JT The angels are “sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation”, Hebrews 1: 14. That is what I would say. They are ministers to all those of us who are christians.
Rem Angels are not subject to human limitations.
JT Quite so.
Ques Would you say a word as to the opposition represented by Herod?
JT It was the opposition really, you might say, of a gentile; and he was linking himself on with the Jews, I suppose it was to ingratiate himself with the Jews for he saw that it pleased the Jews. He was just a politician, in that sense.
PL The moment the assembly appears you have the inveterate hostility of Esau to the purpose of [p. 305] God, worked out in Jacob and Israel, and is that enmity continued now against the assembly? The assembly is introduced in the end of chapter 11.
JT Do you mean that the assembly would be the cause of the devil’s opposition?
PL It says that Herod laid his hands on some of those of the assembly.
JT Of course, persecution of the assembly existed before. The assembly had been in evidence before that, and, of course, it is coming in here now. It is just the same thought again, only emphasized, and that the teaching is in it for a whole year.
PL Does not the Edomite, which Herod represents, stand out in inveterate hostility to what God has particularly before Him?
JT Well. Edom’s opposition is largely against Jacob there. However, in general what you say is right, only we want to be accurate. The assembly does not appear just here first; it had appeared already, only it is emphasized here.
PL I thought it was its operations, and really what is Pauline coming into view, which makes it such an object of attack.
JT Quite so; that is true.
DSH Something has been said about Rhoda; would you say a word about Peter continuing to knock?
JT It shows that he was assured of himself; he had come to himself already. He was asleep in the prison, and now he came to himself, and he saw that the Lord had come in for him, and so he continued to knock as if he wanted the brethren to hear; he wanted them to know that he was there. Then he made a sign to them to be silent, and said, “Report these things to James and to the brethren”.
EAL The point seems to be that Rhoda recognised Peter before she saw him, but the others did not recognise him until they did see him.
JT [p. 306] She recognised his voice, that is the point.
EAL There is a reference to voice in chapter 9 and a note there to the effect that the thing heard is before the mind. The thing was in her mind and she was listening to the voice of Peter because she expected to hear him.
JT Just so. The prayers had gone up for him. Sometimes one thinks that we ought to expect things on Tuesday because it is the day after the prayer meeting; and we do get things too, even although we do not always believe in what we pray for; but God answers our prayers, nevertheless.
Ques Was it not imperative that the brethren should be brought into what had happened? So that he says, “Report these things to James and to the brethren”. Nobody was to be left out of the great matter that had just happened.
JT I thought that. It was to be a general matter of information, which is a great matter now, and is in keeping with what we have said about the ears of the assembly. Things should be told if they are valuable.
AJG Is that to invigorate the brethren to go forward in what God is doing?
JT Just so, I always think that Tuesday is the time we should expect things from God, by way of answers to our prayers. The idea of a prayer meeting is here; in fact, as our brother says, there are two prayer meetings mentioned. Who can say how many prayer meetings there are amongst us on a Monday night, and why should we not expect answers?
Ques Does Rhoda represent the spiritual element on the subjective side, as waiting on the brethren, to take on matters?
JT Very good, waiting on the brethren. And then, what we have already said, submitting to the brethren, submit yourselves one to another. But waiting on the brethren is a [p. 307] good idea.
WSS Speaking of Rhoda further, does it not suggest to us the importance of being ready to receive a word from a young brother or young sister, whom the Spirit may be employing?
JT That is just what we were saying yesterday morning, about the sisters. She is a sister, of course, and sisters should be ready to give out information that is profitable. They should not be occupied merely with small talk, as you might say, but give out what is profitable, because there is so much around that is profitable. So if the sisters have something to say about the brethren that is good, something reliable that they have heard, let them say it, and encourage the brethren, and if it is of value to the assembly, a brother can report it.
GCS Would Peter’s voice be a shepherd’s voice as representing the Lord, and should we recognise the voice of every one who is a shepherd?
JT Quite so. The Lord says, “My sheep hear my voice”, and of the shepherd, that “the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. But they will not follow a stranger”.
ANW The word in Timothy to women is that they are to learn in quietness, not in silence.
JT Very good, not in silence, but in quietness and subjection.
SMcC It says that “she maintained that it was so”. Is that not a needful feature, that we should hold our ground in regard to these things?
JT I would say that fully. In fact, I have often thought of it about Rhoda, and, no doubt, some of us, as I have done, use Rhoda as a subject for helping young people. It is a very good subject as to young people.
EuR Is there a prophetic allusion in Peter’s side being smitten and his liberation to the revival of the truth of the assembly in these last days?
JT Quite [p. 308] so.
EuR It goes on to say after referring to Peter’s voice, “but Peter continued knocking”. Would that link on somewhat with the Lord’s voice and the Lord’s knock to Laodicea? “Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me”, Revelation 3: 20.
JT The Lord appeals to us in that sense, “If any one hear my voice”, and then there is the promise.
EuR And the word, “I stand at the door”. Is it that He stations Himself there and remains in that attitude?
JT Very good. It is like a man standing at the door of a house; he wants to get in. People see him doing so and he may become a subject of reproach, but still he is doing it. He is doing it in love for the saints, “Behold, I stand at the door”,-not, I have stood, but am doing it.
HWA May I ask if there is not special significance in the fact that just after the verse quoted from Revelation 3 the Spirit says, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. That is, the Lord’s voice and what the Spirit says are close together at the end of the addresses to the assemblies. I wondered if it would not bear particularly on what you were saying in London, as to what is specific at the present moment.
JT That ought to be repeated, that the Lord’s voice is specific. It may be only a few words, but it is authoritative. The Spirit’s voice may proceed for the whole dispensation, and it is proceeding at this very minute in this hall. He is constantly speaking to us, but the Lord’s voice may be only a few words, as it was in the addresses to the assemblies, but they are authoritative. They contain the gist of all that is to be said by [p. 309] the Spirit.
AED Is it striking that despite all this opposition it says, in verse 24, that “the word of God grew and spread itself”?
JT Very good. And then that opens the door to chapter 13.
Ques I would like to ask, before we leave chapter 12, is it not remarkable that this political situation is so clearly outlined in this chapter? Do you think the prayer that was made was the basis for divine intervention, not only in regard of Peter and the ministry, but in regard of the political situation?
JT You mean as seen in Herod. Just so. Because he changed his ground and went down to some gentile position. He had been speaking on Jewish ground but now he is moving out to a gentile position, and he is making a great display, and he makes an oration. He wants to be heard, but he is on gentile ground.
Ques Would the going down one street, after the iron gate had opened, point to the recovery of Paul’s ministry, and would the prayer be in keeping with it?
JT Well, it says, “They went down one street”. He is not confused; he takes the right one, as if there was only one. You might call it one street, as in Damascus, “the street which is called Straight”. It leads to the truth, the truth of Paul, as you might say, the whole truth indeed. So it is really the deliverance of Peter, and Peter’s ministry, because Peter represents the ministry here. The ministry had been restricted but now it is released, and Peter represents it.
RWS Are not only sisters to be in our consideration in future meetings, but young persons from, say, twelve and up, brothers and sisters?
JT That is what I thought we might notice particularly. It is one of the items in the chapters read, and it is a very important item, that young people should come into the ministry, in some sense.
[p. 310] and be able to do things that are furthering the truth of God.
JGH Is that seen also in Naaman’s maid, in 2 Kings 5?
JT Very good. Her heart was in the thing. There is an exclamation in what she says, “Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria! then he would cure him of his leprosy”, 2 Kings 5: 3. It is as if she were evangelical herself.
PL It says that Moses “sent the youths of the children of Israel, and they offered up burnt-offerings, and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offering of bullocks to Jehovah”. Exodus 24: 5.
JT And they became priests. There were none officially at the time, but they became that; they knew what to do, and that is, of course, an advance on what we are saying. They would be fully thought of as priests, not that they are called priests, but they were that for they actually did the offering.
PL The assembly typically is the great theme in this scripture in Exodus, and there is the necessity of fresh youthful material coming into service.
JT And, even although they are not acknowledged to be official, yet they are to be used, because there is need for them; there is need for such service as they can offer.
Rem There are not many young people mentioned in this book, but there is a boy, Eutychus, in chapter 20.
JT Very good, I was hoping we would come to that. Tell us about it.
Rem I was only comparing Rhoda, of whom we have spoken, and her agility and joyfulness, with the sleep that marked Eutychus. I am thinking of the remark that the young people should be brought into matters. Then we have the wives and children who went down to the seashore with Paul, as though the young people are brought into these [p. 311] love matters.
JT Very good.
AM Is it not significant that John Mark comes in at the end of chapter 12, as a young man coming into service with great opportunities?
JT Quite so. He is the same one as Mark; he is called “John, surnamed Mark”, here. It says, “Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, having fulfilled the service entrusted to them, taking also with them John, surnamed Mark”. Well, now we have Paul’s service opened up to us, and the Spirit Himself in charge of it. It is not the Lord Jesus who is in charge here, it is the Spirit, showing how the divine Persons may be interchanged. So the Spirit takes on the matter here, and the beginning of chapter 13 is a very important part of the scripture that we have had before us. John Mark is thus to assist, or augment, what Paul and Barnabas were doing, showing how young men can do that. They can be ready to take part in whatever service may be going on, without any question as to what it is, but ready to do anything that will promote the work of God.
Ques Does the word of Paul to Timothy show the possibilities of youth-”Let no one despise thy youth, but be a model of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity”, 1 Timothy 4: 12?
JT Quite so. That is to say, if he is marked by these latter statements, faith and purity, no one should have the power to despise him. It is in his own hands, that no one shall despise him, because he knows what to do. He is marked by purity, especially.
SMcC In the setting in the opening verses of chapter 13, where the Spirit is free to speak, reference is made to fasting. Do you think that we need to know a little more of fasting in view of these [p. 312] conditions?
JT Very good. That is something that is very little known; just as the service of angels is very little known, but fasting had a great place at the beginning of christianity. The Lord Himself says, “This kind can go out by nothing but by prayer and fasting” (Mark 9: 29), showing that there is power in fasting.
SMcC Would it apply literally as well as spiritually, or would you exclude the literal thought from it altogether?
JT Well, I am not sure about that, because the literal thought is in mind in the allusions to fasting, both in the Lord’s own words and in the reference here. The literal thought is in mind.
Ques At any crucial juncture, does it not become imperative that fasting, at least morally, should be resorted to?
JT I believe so, in the principle of it anyway. In a real crisis or difficulty of the truth, and the like, fasting is an outlet for us. The Lord would never fail to come in for us, when it is resorted to. I remember resorting to it, with others, in 1889, at the time of the difficulty about eternal life, and the Lord helped us.
Ques Was the whole assembly involved in the ministering to the Lord and fasting, or only the gifted brothers? It says, “as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting”.
JT “Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius the Cyrenian, and Manaen, foster-brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said. Separate me ...” and so forth. I would think it is just the persons mentioned.
Ques Would you say that the Holy Spirit spoke in the assembly, or amongst those [p. 313] brothers?
JT Well. He spoke anyway, I would say He spoke through some brother, but I think it is better to leave it to the text as it is.
Ques Is not the assembly what may be called an over-all thought here? It says, “Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there”, as though it was, in a certain sense, a governing thing.
JT Just so. But then they are specifically mentioned by name, and I believe the fasting and prayer was on their side.
SMcC What did you say about 1889 in regard to the truth of eternal life?
JT There was such a terrible crisis, and the devil had attacked brethren, and there were a great number, more, in fact, than remained in fellowship, who were turned aside by the devil, especially in America and on the Continent, in France and Germany. It was a terrible time!
SMcC Did I understand you to say that you resorted to fasting?
JT Yes.
Ques What exactly do you mean by that?
JT We actually fasted. The Lord helped what we were doing. It was a small thing, of course; there were only a few of us, but anyway it was there. It was not a general thing at all, I do not know that they fasted generally, I do not think they did, perhaps there would have been more saved if they had.
Ques What is meant by the reference to fasting morally?
JT The denial of what is right in itself.
Ques. Is that practical?
JT Very practical.
Rem The service sometimes requires it? “They that have wives be as though they had none”, 1 Corinthians [p. 314] 7: 29.
DJM Esther called for it at a critical time, did she not?
JT Yes, she asked them to fast with her, not to pray with her. There is not a word about prayer in Esther; it is fasting. That is the point of it; power comes in through fasting.
FVW Is the fasting in verse 3 more general than in verse 2?
JT It says, “Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go”. It is as if the need for power was intensified, so that the Spirit would be in full liberty in regard of these servants. He was sending out servants, and that is the point to see in the passage. The Spirit is in charge of the sending of the servants. We might say, Why should the Lord not do it? Well. He did not; the Spirit did it. So that we had better take what we get in the Scriptures and go by it.
NKM Would fasting deliver us from natural likes and dislikes?
JT I think it is more that we would deny ourselves things that are, in themselves, legal and right, for the sake of getting the power. You want the power and that is the way to get it. “This kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting”. There is prayer, of course, but then fasting is added to it.
Ques Is it that kind of thing that Paul has in mind when he says, “All things are lawful, but all are not profitable”, 1 Corinthians 10: 23? Is that the principle of fasting in a general way?
JT Just so. He denied himself of certain things just for the sake of the power that came to him.
Ques Here the fasting is put before the prayer. Would that help to give effectiveness to the prayer?
JT Yes; in verse 3 it says, “Then, having fasted and prayed”, showing the urgent need of power was more in their minds. They needed power at the moment, because the Spirit of God was working and [p. 315] He might be hindered. We are not to quench the Spirit, or to grieve Him. They might have grieved Him here, if they did not take great care. He was doing a great work.
Ques In that they were fasting, and ministering to the Lord, does it suggest that there was a sensitiveness with them as to the imminence of this move of the Spirit in directing these servants to go out?
JT Quite so. It was most essential at the time. It was a very critical time, because the Spirit might be grieved, and the service of God might be hindered.
WC Would this passage indicate that in service the Spirit should be waited upon particularly, for help and guidance in the ministry?
JT Well, quite so. He is to be waited on, and, of course, the Lord is to be waited on too, I think if you have been invited to go to a place, and you are minded to go, you would wait on the Lord; I would wait on the Lord more, because He is the Lord. He is the only One said to be made Lord. The Spirit is not said to be made Lord, nor is the Father said to be made Lord, but the Son is said to be made Lord. Therefore He is the One to wait on in these matters.
ECM How would you understand the phrase, “and having laid their hands on them, they let them go”?
JT It is just identification. It is a common sign of identification, whatever it be. Paul was an apostle and he speaks of it himself; he says, “The putting on of my hands” to Timothy (2 Timothy 1: 6), showing that it is complete identification with Timothy.
RWS Would you enlarge on your last remark as to waiting on the Lord?
JT I think it is just. He is entitled to it, because He is the One that is made Lord, and the word “The Father ... has given all things to be in his hand” (John 3: 35) is in keeping with that. Therefore [p. 316] I think we should make much of the Lord, in that sense, if we are going to do anything at a given time or are anticipating certain things to be done.
JTJr We get both thoughts here, ministering to the Lord, as if the Lord is in view immediately, and then the Spirit in view of service.
JT Very good.
Ques Would you say what the expression “ministering to the Lord” means, please?
JT I think it carries its own meaning. We have the thought of the angels even ministering to those that are heirs of salvation. It is “to the Lord”, which is clear enough, so that the bearing of it is towards Him.
HFN Would you say a further word in regard to the thought of invitation, and then the direct sending out by the Lord, and then the voice of the Spirit? The great bulk of service in this country is as the fruit of invitation.
JT Invitation simply sets you free to go, but you must begin with the Lord. If the matter is to be settled, we must go to the Lord about it. We were speaking about this in Rochester, and a brother asked me, ‘Why did you come to Rochester?’ Well, I said, ‘I was invited to come’, but at the same time, I had to turn to the Lord for a commission, and I think the word ‘commission’ should enter into these matters. It is a question of whether we have a commission to go. The command is there. What do you say?
HFN I really wanted to get help. The great majority of brethren in this country are what you may call ‘week-end servants’. Very few go and stay.
JT It is perhaps well if they confine themselves to week-ends. Sometimes it runs on to a month or even two or three months before they come back. There is great weakness because [p. 317] of that.
HFN I really wanted to get at what was the divine principle. Here it seems definite that they were sent. It says, “as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul ...” I wondered whether we should not look for this, having recognised the presence of the Spirit and all the gain to us, and whether this should not open an avenue in service, apart from the question of invitation.
JT This afternoon I hope we shall be able to look at the matter of invitations further, for there is an invitation in chapter 16, “Come over into Macedonia, and help us”.