THE SERVICE OF GOD AND THE LORD'S SUPPER (2)
[p. 364] THE SERVICE OF GOD AND THE LORD’S SUPPER (2)
JT This second epistle to the Corinthians affords much encouragement as to discipline, for the results of the discipline recorded in the first epistle are evidently quick. They are, in fact, quicker than the apostle himself had indicated. So that there seems to be an opportunity for us to take account of discipline, wherever it is needed, and not to fear to execute it, if necessary, and there will be results accordingly, as we see in the second chapter of this epistle. The apostle says in verse 3 of chapter 2, “I have written this very letter to you, that coming I may not have grief from those from whom I ought to have joy; trusting in you all that my joy is that of you all. For out of much tribulation and distress of heart I wrote to you, with many tears; not that ye may be grieved, but that ye may know the love which I have very abundantly towards you. But if any one has grieved, he has grieved, not me, but in part (that I may not overcharge you) all of you. Sufficient to such a one is this rebuke which has been inflicted by the many; so that on the contrary ye should rather shew grace and encourage, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with excessive grief. Wherefore I exhort you to assure him of your love. For to this end also I have written, that I might know, by putting you to the test, if as to everything ye are obedient. But to whom ye forgive anything, I also; for I also, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for your sakes in the person of Christ; that we might not have Satan get an advantage against us, for we are not ignorant of his thoughts”. Discipline comes in [p. 365] here in a peculiar way, as, perhaps, on the one hand defeating the devil in his efforts, and, on the other hand, to the restoring of an erring one and that quickly.
PL Does that attach to the principle of the valley of Achor becoming a door of hope? It is where the discipline was exercised.
JT Just so. The valley of Achor becomes a door of hope, so that we may peruse this third chapter with a view to coming to the glory of the Lord, and seeing how it comes into the meeting on the first day of the week; “looking on the glory of the Lord”. What we shall see, I believe, is the interchange of thought as to the divine Persons and how They may be referred to interchangeably. Here the Spirit is called the Lord, and in James the Father is called Lord too, but the Lord Jesus is the only One said to be made Lord. So that when we refer to the Lord, we rightly refer to the Lord Jesus. But the Father is Lord too, and the Spirit is Lord, showing how the idea of authority enters into all these matters, especially discipline.
EuR What is the bearing of “the Lord is the Spirit”?
JT Well, just that the title attaches to Him. In verse 16 we have, “But when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit”, and then again, “but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. So that there is clearly an interchange of thought as to the word Lord, and it refers to the Spirit here. We have to take account of that, and it will prove a greater advantage than we have understood, if we discern that something is directly of the Spirit and that the Spirit will deal with it. In the beginning of the chapter it is a question of letters of commendation, and the apostle alludes to it as if the Corinthians might have suggested that he needed one; but they were his letter,
written in his heart, “known and read of all men”. It is as if it was universal so that wherever he went he spoke well of the Corinthians, which is a good sign. It is a good sign if a brother speaks well of the saints; speaks as well as he can of them. I should think that Paul must have gloried in the work at Corinth, and spoke of it wherever he went.
Rem Their very place in christianity was a proof of his apostleship.
JT Of course, there is apt to be a good deal of criticism of the dear brethren who serve the Lord, but I think people should be warned not to be critical of those who are serving. There may be reason for it, but certainly not to be unduly critical, for they deserve our care.
SCT And our prayers.
JT Quite so, I have not known a time in which there has been so much prayer, at a given time, as there has been over the last few months. God has owned it too in a remarkable way. I believe there has been need of adjustment too, in customs that have been pursued and perhaps there is meant to be attention paid to any corrections that the Lord is giving, especially as to young people and as to the time of their coming into fellowship, so to speak, and breaking bread.
JFG What have you in mind there?
JT The young people, I think, are kept too long. When they wish to break bread they are sometimes held back too much.
PL Have we some thought a little in line with it in Ezekiel 16: 8, “thy time was the time of love”. While Jerusalem, of course, is in mind, could we apply that in that sense? “I said unto thee, in thy blood, Live! I caused thee to multiply”. Would that be a right attitude towards the young?
JT “The time of love”, just so. They should not be allowed to wait unduly through our saying [p. 367] they are too young, because you can never tell what the Spirit of God may do. We know that there have been persons very young brought into the circle of fellowship, and have gone on in it too.
SCT Is it not a great preservation to them to be associated with the saints in love?
JT They are not to be regarded as sitting outside, or sitting back. Young children ought to sit with their parents.
FJF When the apostle baptised the household of the jailor, was that in view of them all being in the fellowship?
JT I would think so.
FJF And does the Lord desire all the family to be remembering Him?
JT Of course He does. Marriage is in the Lord, and children, because they are in the Lord and the Lord claims them, should be held for Him. They should be held for the assembly.
JPH Would you mind saying what you would personally look for in a young person, so that he or she might be received?
JT I would say a good sign is that they keep with the elder brethren. They are not seeking younger ones because they are young. It is much healthier to keep as much as possible with the elder brethren. Young people are apt to become clannish. If they seek the company of the elder brethren it is an evidence of the operations of the Spirit.
AM That is a test to the elder brethren themselves, that they may be attractive.
JT Yes.
PL Jacob dwelling in tents with his father and grandfather. Would that help?
JT It was Abraham that did that, “Having dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob”.
PL That is what I mean, but that would bring Jacob in, would [p. 368] it not?
JT Quite so, and Abraham was the great father.
Rem It says, “Samuel ministered before Jehovah, a boy girded with a linen ephod”, 1 Samuel 2: 18. Is that what you referred to as the young coming in?
JT Very good. “Girded with a linen ephod”. He was taken care of by his mother, for she brought him a coat every year. But as to Abraham, he is a great father; he is father of a multitude eventually. There is thus good encouragement to bring the young in and to increase their number.
JT-r Had you some thought to link this chapter up with the thought of announcing the Lord’s death till He come?
JT Yes, I suggested this chapter to link on with what we had this afternoon, namely, the eleventh chapter of the first epistle.
JT-r I believe you remarked something about the testimonial side, too, did you not? Are you linking up the announcement of the Lord’s death with these letters of commendation, and their being the epistle of Christ, and so on?
JT Quite so. “Do we begin again to commend ourselves?” he says, “or do we need, as some, commendatory letters to you, or commendatory from you? Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men”, showing how widely he spoke of them. It would indicate that the ministers are to be prone to speak well of the saints, and, on the other hand, the saints are to be prone to respect the elder brethren, and especially those who are serving them, and ministering food to them.
JT-r In connection with the letters of commendation, and the beautiful way the apostle could speak of the Corinthian saints, is there an application to ourselves that we, as having partaken of the Lord’s supper, should carry an impression of that precious death and Himself as we move about amongst [p. 369] men?
JT Quite so. The celebration of the Lord’s supper seems to be the very centre of things in the divine mind. It is never called any supper but the Lord’s. It is not the Spirit’s supper, nor the Father’s, but it is the Lord’s supper, and He would come into it in due time. The Spirit would come into the service in due time, and the Father would come into it in due time, but it is the Lord’s supper we begin with.
EBMcC Referring to the competent ministers of the new covenant, would the teaching help the young people? It says, “not of letter, but of spirit”. You were saying we should be more in the spirit of it.
JT Well, quite so.
Ques Would you say a word on verse 3: “Being manifested to be Christ’s epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God”?
JT I should think the apostle is referring to his own service, and it is a very strong expression. “Being manifested to be Christ’s epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God”. It is a very strong expression, and then again. “Not on stone tables”, referring to the law, “but on fleshy tables of the heart”.
Rem I wondered whether it would bear on the character of Paul’s ministry at Corinth, as he speaks of it “in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”, and whether that sets the standard for all ministry, although this would be particularly apostolic.
JT Quite so. So that we have an example in him, Paul, specially raised up for that purpose. It was evidently not an after-thought, but it was in the Lord’s mind. He came in long after the twelve, clearly to fill out the idea of the assembly. He says it was given to him “to complete the word of God”, Colossians 1: [p. 370] 25.
WC You spoke just now of beholding the glory of the Lord on the first day of the week, would you say a little more as to that?
JT I think it refers to the divine service, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. I believe this is the divine service par excellence; the first day of the week is where the service of God begins and finishes, as it were, but we begin with the Lord’s supper.
Ques Does the glory of the Lord, in your mind, stand related to the glory of the Lord Jesus?
JT That is what I was just remarking. It is remarkable the phraseology you get at the end of the chapter. So that it says, “But when it shall turn to the Lord”, that is to say Israel in the future, “the veil is taken away”, that is the hope of Israel, but then it says, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”. So that it seems to me the Spirit is called the Lord there two or three times. The allusion is to our being able to discern the Spirit when things have to be done; whether it is the Spirit that has to do them or the Lord Himself. So the thing that has become very prominent in many minds is the discerning of the divine Persons when They speak; which One it is, and to be able to see why it is either the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit.
JT-r Just glancing back to the thought of writing on the heart, is that the present service of the Holy Spirit to us, or is it in the past tense?
JT “Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men, being manifested to be Christ’s epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God”. So that it was a current thing, at that time any way, in the apostle’s ministry, and, of course, we could transfer that now to ourselves. We have to take up Scripture and use it as it can be used, giving it a present application.
JT-r “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit”, Romans 5: 5. Has it any link with that at all, do you think?
JT Quite so! It is a current thing all the time. The Spirit has been here all these centuries, and that is the sort of service He is rendering. He is shedding the love of God abroad in our hearts; it is by the Holy Spirit.
Ques Why, in this third verse, is the Spirit alluded to as the “Spirit of the living God”?
JT It is a strong expression, as we were saying. It is the idea of life carried into it; “the living God”.
FJF Is not the term ‘living’ connected with all three divine Persons? “The living Father”, “the Son of the living God” and here “the Spirit of the living God”.
JT Just so. It shows the stress given to life as applied to all divine Persons.
Ques In Timothy the assembly is called “the assembly of the living God”. Would that be the result?
JT Quite so.
HPW Do you think that the whole idea of writing is intended to emphasise that it should be legible by all? The question is thus, Is it Christ’s writing on our hearts? Is it not a very great thing that it should be read and be intelligible to all?
JT Quite so. It should be legible, as you say. The youngest believers in the family are to be taught how to read the Scriptures spiritually, because the Holy Scriptures are their inheritance. Paul says to Timothy, “From a child thou hast known the sacred letters”, 2 Timothy 3: 15.
[p. 372] There may be weakness on those lines, and I believe there is generally, but parents should take up things. We used to have Sunday Schools, but we do not have them any more; at the same time children have to be taught and parents ought to do the teaching. They ought to carry the Spirit of the truth into the house, and the children should drink into it.
HPW Do you think that the writing of the Spirit of the living God can be read easily? It carries its own features and its own power.
JT I am sure that is right.
HPW It speaks about “not with ink”. We understand, do we not, that the idea of our writing in ink is that it shall be easily legible, but when the Spirit of God writes in our hearts, it is legible.
JT Yes, quite so. That is helpful.
JT-r Do you connect this writing, in the early part of the chapter, with looking on the glory of the Lord at the end?
JT That is the great end, I should think, that comes into the Lord’s supper on the first day of the week. I believe the first day of the week is in mind in all this, because it is the time of the service of God. It was the first day of the week, according to Acts 20, when it says, “We being assembled to break bread”. But then it says Paul discoursed for a long time, which means that there must have been something to be done and corrected in the town.
WSS There would be no limit to the thought of the glory of the Lord in this last verse?
JT Well, it is the glory of a divine Person, of course; but it is the Lord, and I believe the Spirit is in mind, the active Person of the Deity as making it effective. He is the active Person who is here in the assembly. I do not say here on earth, but in the assembly, for that is the area or region where the Spirit is [p. 373] active.
WC So that the letters of commendation are part of the glory. They describe the work of the Spirit in the saints?
JT Quite so. Therefore we ought perhaps not to be too liberal with our commendations of brethren. All may not deserve the letters that we hear read. We ought to be careful that what we say is just the truth.
PAF Did I understand you to say you do not look upon the Spirit exactly as being on earth, but in the assembly?
JT He is in the assembly, that is where He is.
PL “A habitation of God in the Spirit”, Ephesians 2: 22.
JT Quite so. That is good.
DJM Would “the same image” suggest that we are like the Lord, and that there is a sameness about the saints; they are like one another?
JT I would think so. Why not! He is our Head; He is our Leader; He is a divine Person, and He is a quickening Spirit. The Lord is a quickening Spirit.
Ques Are you connecting beholding the glory of the Lord with our occupation following the Lord coming in at the Supper?
JT That is what I believe develops out of the Supper. The Lord comes in, and, of course, the fact that He does come in is the leading thought. It is not exactly that He comes in from heaven, but that He is here in the sphere of testimony, and He comes in accordingly, and sees and values that we are remembering Him. I think it is proper to speak of Him in that way. He is the One who suffered, and died, but the thought of being in heaven is, as it were, another line of things. It is a question of the Lord being with us here, where He has been and where He suffered, and now where He is remembered. We remember Him; and He values our [p. 374] remembering Him.
ATG Does the thought that the Spirit quickens in this chapter have peculiar force at the particular point in the service that we are now referring to?
JT Quite so.
Ques Would the glory of the Lord be over against the suffering that is indicated in the Supper itself?
JT I would think so. There is a word that we have been speaking of elsewhere, that bears on what we are saying. It says in Romans 8: 11, “But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. That is to say the quickening of our mortal bodies is preliminary to our being caught up; what we call the rapture. I should be glad if the brethren would comment on that, as to whether they agree, but that is what I believe is the truth, that you must have a preliminary action, by the Spirit, to prepare us for being caught up. The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, but the Spirit quickens us.
ECM Is the thought of quickening in view of going from glory to glory?
JT Well, I would connect “glory to glory” with the service of God. From the beginning to the end of it is “from glory to glory”. The fact of the matter is that the first day of the week is a day of glory. God has ordered it so that we can be together and proceed on those lines, “from glory to glory”.
Ques Do you mean that there is a certain progression to be expected?
JT I do.
Ques Do you think the Spirit is the Author or Source of that progression?
JT Well, quite so. At the same time the Lord is Head, properly speaking. He is Head of [p. 375] the assembly.
FRH Would you say a little as to what is meant by “the ministry of the Spirit”?
JT It is in contrast to something else. “But if the ministry of death, in letters, graven in stones, began with glory, so that the children of Israel could not fix their eyes on the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face, a glory which is annulled”; now there is the contrast-”how shall not rather the ministry of the Spirit subsist in glory?” The ministry of the Spirit and what subsists in glory is the contrast to Sinai. It may, of course, be by the gifts or the like, but it is the ministry of the Spirit, nevertheless, and it subsists in glory.
JSE Is all this intended to enhance the assembly as the greatest possibility in glory on the earth at the present time? I was connecting in my mind the word, “we all partake of that one loaf”, and here, “we all, looking on the glory of the Lord”. I wondered if the two expressions “we all” would not serve to enhance the greatness and uniqueness of the assembly.
JT Quite so. The “we all” alludes to the end of the meeting rather than the beginning, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”. I believe that is the end, so to speak.
AM Is there a certain correspondence between the coming of the Lord for us at the rapture, and His coming to us now and our being in a sense rapt away or transformed in the power of the Spirit?
JT Well, quite so, if we do not assume too much. It is very likely we never realise the idea of being rapt away. I doubt whether any one of us has.
AM Well, I meant the idea of change, change of place. I think you have used that expression.
JT Yes, I have. It is a question of what comes in, and what is possible after the breaking of bread, the change of state and place. Ephesians contemplates [p. 376] our being raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies. That is place, but the change of state precedes that, that is to say the working of the Spirit in the heart.
JT-r Thinking of the reference again, “The glory of the Lord”, is it a comprehensive thought of the glory or does it refer to some particular phase of it?
JT I think, as we were saying, the Lord’s supper is in mind and what comes out of it. We behold the glory of the Lord. The Spirit is brought into that, and that is a thing to be noticed. The Lord is the Spirit so that we have the interchange of the divine Persons, how it can be discerned in what takes place in the assembly.
JPH Is the service of God helped greatly as the Spirit of God has His right place in our minds in His greatness? It says, “Now the Lord is the Spirit”, and then it says, “But where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. I wondered if it was in your mind that as we give the Spirit all that is due to Him, the service of God will be enriched and great liberty brought into it.
JT I think that is just what is happening. We have been denying Him a great deal, but He is now coming into what belongs to Him. I believe this passage is peculiarly that; “the Lord the Spirit”. “The Lord is the Spirit”, it says.
FJF Would that bring about a contrast to what is in the Old Testament, where the priests could not minister because of the glory that had come into the house?
JT Quite so. There are several contrasts here in this same passage, between the present time and Sinai.
HPW You made a reference to preliminary work. Is the Spirit going on with that in each one of us now, before actually the rapture takes [p. 377] place?
JT Well, I do not say it is with each one of us now. I believe it is an occurrence according to 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4, “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. Then we shall be caught up to be with the Lord, but there is not a word about quickening. The quickening is by the Spirit, according to Romans 8: 11.
HPW Do I understand also you are linking it on with this passage in 2 Corinthians 3, “we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”?
JT That is what I understand. What do you say about it?
HPW I am wondering about Philippians 3; it speaks about “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself”. I was wondering whether you are linking the service of the Spirit with that.
JT I think that great passage in Philippians 3 must include the work of the Spirit.
HPW So that really the Spirit and the Lord Jesus are working hand-in-hand in the matter.
JT That is exactly what I understand. It is glorious, do you not think so?
HPW I think it is a wonderful thought. It makes you adore Him for what He is doing for us and in us, so as to prepare us actually to see the Lord and receive Him.
JT Quite so. What a wonderful time it will be! We shall be all here together, I take it, however [p. 378] short a moment. The Spirit will change us and the Lord will take us up, and “thus we shall be always with the Lord”. That is how it is put.
Ques Does not the passage in Corinthians show that a change in all is imperative? Nothing is said about being changed in Thessalonians. It just says, “We, the living ... shall be caught up”; but in Corinthians it says, “We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed”. Does not that mean that the change involves incorruptibility?
JT Quite so. But the change in Romans 8 is of our mortal bodies; not our dead bodies. That, I think, is a thing to be noted.
Rem I was thinking that the all would include both dead and living, the dead will need to take on something, and the living need to be changed just as much.
JT Yes, the Lord Himself shall raise the dead-”the dead in Christ shall rise first”. But as regards the change of the living, the mortal, it is the Spirit that does that according to Romans 8: 11.
GCG Would that appear to be the final direct action of the Spirit at the end of this wonderful day of the assembly?
JT I suppose it is the last great action of the Spirit.
PL A suited crown to all His patient and glorious service.
JT Yes; just so.
JPH As we read the Scriptures very carefully now, do we find that in everything divine Persons have acted in unison together, from creation [p. 379] onwards?
JT I think it is a great matter to seek to find out which Person is speaking, because it can be found out; it is discernible. We should discern who the Person is that is speaking; whether it is the Spirit or the Lord Jesus or the Father.
CMM Would the verses you have referred to in Romans 8 fit in with your thought as to referring to divine Persons in an interchangeable way? We have there, “if Christ be in you” and “if indeed God’s Spirit dwell in you”. Would that be a similar line?
JT Quite so. And another thing to be noted is that you could not change the order of Matthew 28; it is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. That is to say the economy remains. What divine Persons were before, we cannot say, but the economy remains as it is now, and that is because the incarnation makes it possible.
LAC Would you help us as to the exact meaning of the expression, “on account of”, as appearing in Romans 8: 11, to which you have referred? It says, “He”, that is, God, “that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”.
JT Your point is, that it is God that does it, which is true; but it is by the Spirit. It is on account of the Spirit.
AEM-o Does it include the dead in Christ, or only those who are alive when the Lord comes?
JT It does not include the dead in Christ. It is the mortal ones; those that are alive. Our mortal bodies, it says, not our dead bodies.
ATG Is it in mind that this change is to be touched now in our spirits in the service of God?
JT Well, I would prefer to leave it just as it is, I believe it alludes to the actual action of the Spirit in view of our being caught up, of our being raptured.
[p. 380] It is, you might say, the crowning action of the Spirit, done for us.
EuR Would you say something as to the successive glories, “transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”?
JT Well, it is the magnificence of the thing. It is beyond human words to go into or to describe fully. It is the magnificence of the thing and it belongs to God. We are dealing with the things that belong to God; with divine Persons directly, and ourselves the subjects of Their thoughts. How can we compass what God is doing? We can compass something of the economy into which the divine Persons have come; but what They were before we cannot say. Apparently They were equal.
PL “Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place!” Ezekiel 3: 12.
JT Quite so.
JT-r Is this thought also connected with our being “conformed to the image of his Son”, Romans 8: 29?
JT That is another magnificent statement. How magnificent it is! You feel really you are just lost in it; that we are to be transformed into the image of His Son! We cannot be dealing with anything greater than what we are dealing with now. The question is whether we can take it in, and think over it, because it takes time to take it in. We are coming to the end of the dispensation, and I am sure the Lord is preparing us for it, and giving us thoughts suitable to it.
AM Is part of the teaching of the transfiguration of the Lord Jesus in the gospels to show that men can be made suited to be with Him, on that level of things? Two men appeared with Him in glory, and then Peter speaks of it in his second epistle.
JT [p. 381] Just so. That is a very nice thought.
AM Has it a bearing on us now?
JT I think it has. It is a question of what man can come into. The Lord has taken on this matter that we are in now, in the end of the dispensation. The question is whether we are able to seize it, because He is giving us suggestions to enable us to participate in the glory when we are raptured.
PL Could a present application be made to an expression found in the Psalms, “after the glory, thou wilt receive me”, Psalm 73: 24?
JT Well, just so.
PL That is, the glory is just the imminence; it links up with the imminence of the rapture.
EuR Does this “from glory to glory” involve the different phases of the service? The glory of His brethren, and the glory of the bride, and the glory of sonship?
JT I would say that. It is “from glory to glory”. You cannot say just what the limits of it are. They are infinite really. We are dealing with infinite things; at the same time we are to have part in them.
Ques Is there any link with Philippians 3, “The Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has”? Do you think that would include what He does by the Spirit?
JT Well, I think so. The Spirit is the Agent down here, all the time, in the assembly, and He is working with the other divine Persons. He is the actual One down here where we are. He has been here for nineteen hundred years, as we say. Wonderful that it is so! Now, I believe, He is asserting Himself, and claiming what belongs to Him, as it were, but it is for our good too. It is the time [p. 382] of our glory.
CAI Would the glory of the Lord involve not only what was seen inherent in the Lord Jesus here, but what has been here in the assembly?
JT Well, Ephesians refers to the assembly as “his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. That is what is said of us, and it is marvellous. That is part of His glory, of course.
HSS Referring to verse 17, it does not say the Spirit is the Lord, but the Lord is the Spirit.
JT It says, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. Well now, what is the question there?
HSS We cannot separate between the Lord and the Spirit, the Lord acts through the Holy Spirit.
JT Well, quite so. We have already spoken of the interchangeableness of divine Persons, how They can be interchanged, as it were. It is wonderful, and that we are brought into it, for that is what enters into these last two verses.
JPH Does not verse 17 mean, simply, that the One who has authority down here as a divine Person is the Spirit; “the Lord is the Spirit”?
JT “The Lord is the Spirit”; that is what is meant. It is to bring the thought of the Lord into the action of the Spirit. The Spirit is never said to be made Lord. The Lord Jesus is said to be made Lord and Christ, but the Spirit is said to be Lord here, very plainly. He is acting in relation to the Lord Jesus at the same time.
NKM Do you link that on with the ministry of the Spirit, so that it is authoritative?
JT Quite so. It might be the gifts that are here on earth serving the saints.
PL The Spirit disposing of them as He pleases.
JT Just so. As it says, “Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men”. How many are there? They are [p. 383] effective in their actions, in their service, and the Spirit is using them.
HPW Would it be right to say that the Spirit’s service to us is, at any rate, two-fold. First of all, it is bringing the glory of the Lord before us. That is, in a way, objective, is it not? But then, transforming us according to the same image from glory to glory; is not that the other side? So that He brings the light and glory of Christ so attractively to us, but it is in order that He may form the replica of that in the saints of the assembly.
JT Just so, I would say that, fully.
FJF I would like to ask whether after the breaking of bread, when we have the thought of the bride before us, it would be suitable to praise and bless the Spirit for having brought us to the heavenly Isaac?
JT Well, quite so. Of course, we ought always to remember that He has the third place. He has been given the third place in the economy and we cannot ignore that. The Father is the One that we finish with in the service. I would always regard the Spirit as augmentary. The Father is the great Objective after the part for the Lord Jesus in the service. The Spirit is always supplementary. He graciously takes that place.
Rem He is none the less glorious to us because of the place He has taken.
JT Quite so. Divine Persons, or at least God, has to say to us in that light. We have the spirit of things, and we know what to do and say; we know how to treat things.
Rem So that you would have in your mind, do you think, as a kind of governing thought what the Lord says to His disciples in John 20: “My Father and your Father ... my God and your God”.
JT Quite [p. 384] so.
AM Does the action of looking in verse 18 involve the Spirit; our being able to use Him to see?
JT Quite so. The Spirit is within us, of course, and He acts accordingly. We have the expression, “full of the Holy Spirit”. That would have a great effect on anybody of whom it was said.
ECM Would Exodus 24 suggest the liberty? Moses sent the youths of Israel and they offered burnt-offerings and sacrificed peace-offerings, and then we have the seventy elders going up and then it says the nobles “saw God, and ate and drank”. Would that be the result of the Spirit, in this way?
JT Well, I suppose it would, in so far as it could be in the Old Testament. Of course, we have to remember the Holy Spirit was not yet. That is a peculiar formation of words in John 7, which we have to remember, “The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. The Old Testament therefore does not afford as much fulness as to the Spirit as we have now.
Ques Do you think the reference to the individual side in “vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory” (Romans 9: 23) would involve the work of the Spirit in preparation?
JT I think so. “Prepared for glory”.
Rem I was thinking of the ability to take on the glory substantially. It is not merely as presented to us, but that we take it on, inwardly.
Ques “Looking on the glory of the Lord”; how often is it our privilege to do that?
JT When we are in assembly service, I would say. That would be on the first day of the week properly.
WSS Should we not come together on the first day of the week expecting that these glories would unfold?
JT I think so. I think that is perfectly right. Do we look for it? Are we looking out for the [p. 385] matter, and preparing ourselves, on the first day of the week, for it? Because that is the idea.
WSS As the glory of the Lord opens up to us, would that lead to the glory of the Father? I am thinking of the word in John 17, “Father ... glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”.
JT I think that is what is in mind. It is not simply what is in heaven. It is what is going on now, because the idea of the divine service is wonderful. God has arranged it, so that there is such a thing as the divine service, and it is carefully started with the Lord’s supper.
ECT Although the glory is so great we are not to hold back, are we, but we are to use great boldness.
JT So that we glory in our dispensation; it is ours. The millennium is for the Jews; it is a future one, but it will not be anything like ours; it will not be as good as ours.
Ques As to the word, “Now the Lord is the Spirit”, is it your thought that the Spirit takes charge of the service authoritatively, at the Lord’s supper, or have you in mind a blend of authority, in the Lord and the Spirit?
JT Well, that is the way I would take it, in this peculiar passage. The third chapter of 2 Corinthians is a peculiar chapter, for the blending between the Lord and the Spirit is remarkable. But the Spirit, it is clearly asserted, is the Lord: “Now the Lord is the Spirit”.
Ques How do you link that with the next phrase, “Now the Lord is the Spirit”, and then it says, “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”?
JT It is the same thing, only it is another presentation [p. 386] of it.
JPH So that in the service of God we have to be sensitive to the Lord and to the Spirit for impressions and guidance and leading?
JT Quite so, and the whole matter lies in the economy. We cannot tell what went before the economy. It is mysterious; it is beyond us. But we can speak of the economy with a measure of intelligence as having part in it.
Rem So that what is outside the limits of the revelation is inscrutable to us.
JT It is inscrutable; that is the word to use.
EuR Are both the Lord and the Spirit before us in an objective way?
JT Yes, that is right. I would say that, in the sense of the wording in this passage.
EuR I think you said this afternoon that we would know the Spirit as the Spirit of adoption and be free to speak to Him towards the close of the service?
JT I think so. The service goes on, it is from glory to glory, and the glory of the Spirit must enter into it, but the supreme thought in the economy is the Father. You cannot reverse the order of Matthew 28.
Ques Would that link on at all with Ephesians 3? The strengthening by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man and then the love of the Christ and then the power that works in us, finishing with “glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus”. Is this all leading on to that grand end?
JT Quite so, “Unto all generations of the age of ages”. That is the greatest thing you can get, as defining in terms of time, what is really eternal.
Rem Then is it your thought that, in this part of the service we are speaking of, there is liberty to address the Spirit in the sense of His authoritative position right through, but in an augmentary way, not in a principal [p. 387] way?
JT Authority to address Him, yes, in a suitable way; but as I was saying, we must recognise the order of Matthew 28 which is the assembly gospel. There it says, “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. It is only one name used for the three, so we must accept that.
JPH In Revelation 20 it says, “they shall be priests of God and of the Christ”. Are those two services what control and govern us on the Lord’s day morning?
JT Well, quite so. “Priests of God and of the Christ”. So that the Lord Himself has priests, as it were, His own; a peculiar thing. All these things only remind us of the greatness of the things we are dealing with, and to which we belong, too.
JPH There is no priestly service towards the Spirit.
JT That is quite so, but that is quite in order because He takes the lower place. He is the third Person, though, at the same time, we discern that He is equal with the Others. That is the original idea of the Trinity.
Rem And He is necessary to us if we are to have part in the service of God at all.
JT Just so. He has graciously come down to do it. As a matter of fact, He is said to be sent by the Lord Jesus, too. But the Lord Jesus is never said to be sent down from heaven.
JT-r The Old Testament saints, in wilderness circumstances, were familiar with seeing the glory of the Lord. Isaiah also speaks of it, does he not? and John in his first chapter says, “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”. They seemed to be somewhat familiar with the glory of the Lord, did they not?
JT The glory of the Lord in John is quite right, but you do not get it in the Old Testament. There it is more in figure, or in type.
[p. 388] JT-r Well, admitted the figure, but did they not see the glory at the door of the tabernacle?
JT I know, but what did they see? They did not see what the disciples saw in John 1; these saw the glory of the Lord Jesus.
Ques Referring again to the quotation from John 7, “the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”, does that not bring us back to the wonder of the work of redemption and Christ’s present place on high?
JT It does, indeed; everything hinging on the incarnation.