THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (5)
[p. 71] THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (5)
John 7: 37 - 39; Revelation 1: 9 - 20; Revelation 3: 7 - 13
JT Our subject now is not to be based simply on the scriptures read; our subject is the Spirit of God Himself in view of what has come to the attention of the brethren for some months past, that there might be a clarification of it in our minds, and a readiness to give the Holy Spirit His place as a divine Person, as equal with the Father and with the Son. And so many scriptures will doubtless come before us in this inquiry. However, certain things that are outstanding ought to be remarked, and one is that the Old Testament has the same value as the New Testament. The value of the Old Testament is that it is Scripture, and the Scripture says itself, “Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work”, 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17. The Old Testament therefore should come into view a little, particularly the first chapter of the Bible, that is the first of Genesis, and then some passages in the book of Ezekiel where a great deal is said about the Spirit of God, and of speaking to Him, and of His speaking to others. In the New Testament, in the book of Acts, in the section referring to the introduction of the gentiles, we have the Spirit speaking to Peter, although it does not say definitely at first that the Spirit spoke to him, but clearly the voice is the Spirit’s voice, the context shows it, that the Spirit is speaking to Peter, and Peter speaks to the Spirit. That is a point that we ought to be clear about. Moreover it is said in the book of Revelation, in chapter 14, that a voice is heard from heaven, “Blessed the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth”. That voice clearly bears [p. 72] on the Spirit, because the Spirit answers immediately as if the voice were to Him, “Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours”. These are only illustrations of what may be said as to the blessed Spirit of God as an Object of conversation on our part; that is, to be conversed with. In type Genesis 24 is very clear that the chief servant of Abraham is a type of the Holy Spirit, and that he conversed with Rebecca, that is to say, the Holy Spirit in type conversed with Rebecca who is a type of the assembly. Well, many other passages might be introduced, but I believe what is said is enough now to have in our minds, so that the Spirit may have His full place with us. He has it among the saints in general, so far as I can hear, particularly in this country, and in Australasia, and in the British Isles, and so far as I know on the continent of Europe too, and in the West Indies. The general thought of conversing with the Spirit is laid hold of and practised and enjoyed. The brethren are speaking of having great enjoyment in the fellowship that they have with the blessed Spirit of God, and why should they not have, because the Spirit of God can help us, and does help us? He adds His help to our weaknesses.
JSSr Would Matthew 5: 17 help us in connection with establishing the Old and New Testaments on the same basis? “Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil”.
JT Very good.
Rem It has been said sometimes that Paul did not say much about the Spirit on the line on which we are now speaking, but one has noticed how he does give place to the Spirit in this way. Just to mention one instance in Isaiah 6, it says, “I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ... Go, and thou shalt say unto this people”. When Paul quotes that in Acts 28, he says, “Well spoke the Holy Spirit”, suggesting thus that the Holy Spirit is speaking today and Paul is making much of that?
JT Quite so; you get many instances of that kind, where the Holy Spirit is used to convey the scriptures of the Old Testament, as for instance in Hebrews 10.
SMcC Is it not interesting that in the section read in John 7 the matter as to the Spirit comes up in relation to Jesus teaching in the temple? Much has been made in the recovery of the truth in our day as to the temple and teaching in that light. In verse 14, “Jesus went up into the temple and taught”. He is teaching in the temple. We get letters from all parts enquiring as to this matter of the Spirit, but do you not think it is important that the brethren should see the gain of enquiring as to it in relation to the temple?
JT I would refer to Luke 2 in regard to that, as to Simeon; he came by the Spirit into the temple, he is a man in Jerusalem, a characteristic man in Jerusalem and he came by the Spirit into the temple; and when he came Mary and Joseph brought in the Lord Jesus, and he took the Lord Jesus into his arms and blessed them. He blessed them.
AR Is not this matter of speaking to the Spirit as seen in Acts 10, worth reading? It says in verse 13, “And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat. And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean. And there was a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common”. Then it goes on to say in verse 19, “But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them”. That clearly shows there was a conversation going on between the Spirit and Peter.
[p. 74] JT I would say that clearly.
SMcC It is rather interesting that in John 7 we have not a direct text quoted, but the Lord says, “He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”.
JT The Lord leaves it open, and He is saying in effect to us this afternoon, Why do you not study your Bibles, and see if you can find that scripture? I think we can; I believe we have not far to go. In Genesis 24, Isaac was coming and going from the well. There are many wells in Genesis, and there we begin with the thought of rivers; and there are other such scriptures to indicate that the idea of rivers is important in the Old Testament, and they are alluded to in this chapter; the Lord Himself stressing for our benefit, that the Scriptures have said so and so, and that if we look into them we shall find that it is so. The Lord did not mean anything else but that the Scriptures were findable.
Rem The footnote on the word ‘believe’ indicates that it is ‘characteristically believing’, “He that believes”, is characteristic. Is that state necessary in order to reach the great truth as to addressing the Spirit?
JT Just so. It is, as it were, round about the Spirit, the Spirit is the centre of things, the centre of the inquiry. The subject is the Spirit really, “But this he said concerning the Spirit”.
JHP Does not the expression “Jesus stood and cried”, suggest how urgent a matter this is, and how we should move quickly as to it?
JT Yes. These phrases are so unusual that the Lord should be seen standing and crying. You find it in some other instances, but not many. I am glad you mentioned it; it is very urgent.
SJH Would you say, that the last, the great day, was very empty actually, but the Lord is bringing [p. 75] in at the last, in the great day, these very choice things?
JT He has something great to bring in, the word great is not to be overlooked, the Lord has something great to say Himself as to what He had in His mind. He had said already that “the scripture has said”, but He Himself had something great to say. He had what we are engaged with this afternoon, and what has been engaging us for months past, and do not we all regard it as great?
SJH I was thinking of that, and the fact of urgency being mentioned; it is the last day, and as we think to be near the end, the choicest things are coming out.
SMcC It is very interesting, that in the climax of the revival in Nehemiah the culminating points of the first choir in chapter 12 are the fountain gate and the water gate, eastward. Does that not fit in with the present moment in the truth?
JT I think the Lord would say that is right, and I would follow what I believe the Lord would say, that there is much in that suggestion as to these gates. Linking on with Genesis 24, the idea of water there is very prominent, and Isaac was occupied with it really, he was coming and going to the well Beer-lahai-roi, occupied with it at that particular time.
AR The revival took place in Ezra and Nehemiah in the days of the feast of tabernacles, and the same idea is in this chapter. It is the feast of tabernacles, like the end of the dispensation, is it not?
JT Yes, quite so, the feast of tabernacles is the last of the feasts.
AR I was wondering if it fits in with what you were saying yesterday about the seventh day?
JT It does.
LLP [p. 76] Would you attach any importance to the fact that some of the most outstanding women in the Scriptures got their start at wells?
JT I believe you are right. We have been looking at that in New York; the types of the assembly in the whole Bible, beginning at the first of Genesis with Adam and Eve, and it is remarkable how many women are seen at wells, identified with water.
LLP Yes. Leah and Rebecca; and Moses, too, met his wife Zipporah at a well. He served her, and his father-in-law was a man that was able to link on and give his daughter a right start and a right link. And then with Rebecca, the servant tested her at the well, as to whether she fitted in with what he required.
JT In the fourth of John, there is another.
ANW Would Achsah be on that line?
JHP Rachel was connected with a well, and she was a shepherdess.
JT A shepherdess, quite so. Jacob rolled away the stone from the well as soon as she came to light.
AB In the end of John 4 which we did not read, the Lord would seem to make it urgent to the disciples that the reaping time is here. I wondered whether in the last twenty years we have perhaps had the reaping in relation to the Father, and then later to the Son, and whether this might not be the last field to be reaped.
JT The field of the Spirit, very good. I hope we all understand that. Now you have to say a little more because it is all so vast.
AB I just wondered whether this field in relation to the Spirit might not be the last field to be reaped, and therefore it is an urgent matter.
JT I think it is very urgent; and another thing I am reminded of, the order in which these great subjects have come out. We had eternal life before most of us were in the field at all, and we have been [p. 77] engaged with it for a long time. Then after that we had the sonship of Christ; we used to speak of the eternal Son, but that has been set aside, for the sonship of Christ refers to Him in manhood, not in the eternal state at all, but in manhood. So that we may say the first field is eternal life, and the second field is the sonship of Christ, and now this third field is the Spirit of God, and we want to get the full bearing of that this afternoon.
ANW If we could only be gleaners! The word was to the gleaner to go to no other field, but glean where the reapers are.
JT The field of Boaz.
WP In relation to the urgency of the matter, is it not interesting that three of the types in the Old Testament were seen in peculiar activity? Rebecca was one, and Achsah was another, and Abigail was another. Do they help us to see the urgency with which matters are to be taken on?
JT They do.
AR Do you think the urgency of this matter of the Spirit is in view of the rapture?
JT I think so.
Ques Regarding the order of Genesis 26 following chapter 24, which brings to light the assembly, in chapter 26 the wells are dug, suggesting that that is the way the truth has come out today, like the new well that was dug, would you say?
JT Quite so; and Isaac named that well the Broadways; so that things are enlarged in chapter 26. The wells that Abraham had dug were closed up, the Philistines had done that, but Isaac was opening them up again, and in his services God helps him to get to the Broadways. There is plenty of liberty now in this new well that is opened up. And then another thing in that chapter is that the Philistines came to see Isaac and he sent them away; he had moral power to send them away, and they went away in [p. 78] peace from him. The idea in our meetings is to promote peace, not strife, but peace.
ET Is this expression, “out of his belly”, linked up with the idea of assimilation? It is not out of his head, it is out of his belly.
JT Well, quite so. It comes from the inwards where nourishment is yielded, and where the strength comes from; that is what the idea is I think, that there is something coming out in power. It is not that we are weaklings. It is the believer that is alluded to here; “he that believes”; he is in power, he is not a weakling, he did not come just yesterday. In fact he is like Ittai the Gittite, he was going with David anyway. David says, ‘You came to us but yesterday’; but he says, ‘I want to be with you’. He had power.
Ques Does the fact that the Lord speaks of the Spirit on the last day suggest that there is something lacking, and that the Spirit is intended to supply that?
JT The whole position amongst the Jews at that time was empty. What was there? And so in the second of Acts it was as the feast of Pentecost was running its course, that the Spirit came in at that point, the mighty voice from heaven was heard, and it was like unto the hard breathing of God, so as to announce the wonderful fact that the dispensation was inaugurated.
SMcC Do you think that we need to be like Ezekiel, amenable to leadership in relation to the truth? In the latter part of Ezekiel, he is led in, he is led around, he is led without, but the last feature of movement is in chapter 47, “And he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, waters issued”. The last feature of turning and movement is connected with what suggests the Spirit.
JT Those rivers undoubtedly suggest the very thing that is in mind here in John 7; the very thing [p. 79] that we did not know, but that the Lord meant to convey. I believe it is suggested in Ezekiel, in the waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over; what can we get more than that to illustrate the idea of rivers flowing out?
BW Would 1 Corinthians 2 have a bearing on that, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means? The communicating there is expounding, and I was thinking of what comes to light in a time like this and the authority of it.
JT “Spiritual means”; that means that we are able to converse profitably, and I might say intelligently. I do not believe that readings of this type especially marked the beginning of christianity, but they are much in evidence now; the revival has brought them out. These are conversational meetings, and this conversational ministry is mentioned in Acts 20. We are in the time of conversational ministry, and it means that the persons who take part in these readings have intelligence and are able to communicate with one another, as it says in the next to the last chapter of the Old Testament, “Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard”.
BW It goes on to say in that scripture in Corinthians, “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned”.
JT That is a good passage to govern our readings as we call them.
LW Is there a suggestion as to the activity of the Spirit in verse 20 of Exodus 23? “Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee to the place that I have prepared. Be careful in his presence, and hearken unto his voice: do not provoke him, for he will not forgive your transgressions; for my name is in him. But if [p. 80] thou shalt diligently hearken unto his voice, and do all that I shall say, then I will be an enemy to thine enemies, and an adversary to thine adversaries”.
JT That is an allusion undoubtedly to the Spirit; I think, however, that it is an Angel; the Spirit is kept more or less out of view, the Angel is in mind. He has to be regarded; they have to be careful in his presence, because he is not empty handed. I think it has direct application to the exact time that it was written, but its application typically is to what we are going through now, only that the Spirit is keeping Himself out of view, as it were, because it is an Angel that is in mind.
SJH In reference to the rivers, would it be right to take the view that the recovery will be so complete that we shall get back to the thought of God in the four rivers that came out of Eden?
JT That helps. Why do we not think of these things? The Lord would say to us, ‘You are enquiring about John 7, but when I spoke about rivers of living water, why did you not think about those rivers in Genesis and Ezekiel?’ So that the Scriptures are full of what the Lord had in mind.
FNW You were referring to Genesis 26, and there is a well dug at the end of that chapter following the ones that are named. Is it indicated that that might be Isaac’s well, not one of Abraham’s that is re-dug? Do you feel that the help we are receiving as to the Holy Spirit now is distinctive to this time, or is it a re-digging of what was known in the apostles’ days?
JT I do not know whether I could show from the Scriptures that it was known then, although I think what Peter says would indicate that he knew, for the Spirit was speaking and he spoke to Him, I think that is the truth.
EAL Stephen was called a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and he says, “O stiffnecked and [p. 81] uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also”. Some today seem to recognise the types that we speak of, such as the type in Genesis 24, but then they say that the types are being taken out of their scope. Has not ministry helped us to see that we cannot limit the scope of what divine Persons may do? Is that not really an uncircumcised heart operating? I mean they are not taking on the truth because they are resisting it.
JT Yes, they are letting the Old Testament go, so to speak, and reducing it to a lower level than the New Testament. I know, because I have had to do with them. One of the first things I had to do with in the matter was in John 10, where they said to the Lord that He blasphemed because He said He was the Son of God. But the Lord says, that “If he called them gods to whom the word of God came ... do ye say of him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am Son of God?”. The Lord makes the point that it is a question of words, and the Lord is convicting them of violating Scripture, so He says, “The scripture cannot be broken”, and that is the great word, “The scripture cannot be broken”. The Old Testament is the Scripture, and it cannot be broken.
SMcC And so the Lord is referring here to the Old Testament Scriptures.
JT There were none others when the Lord was here, and then after the Lord arose there were none others, and after He went to heaven there were very few, and then the Scriptures began to be written.
ACW In 1 Timothy 4 we read, “But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons”. The Spirit is speaking there expressly.
JT The Spirit speaks expressly, quite so.
EP In relation to our brother’s question as to this truth being known in apostolic days are we not being recovered to the truth as it was in the beginning? It seems in the book of Acts that persons were very familiar with the Spirit and His movements in the testimony?
JT Well, no doubt, we are being recovered, but I would not make it entirely what is recovered, because there are fresh things coming out; the Lord has been reserving things to bring them out in view of the end. Of course the word in Isaiah applies in a general way, “a remnant shall return”; that is what Shear-jashub means. That is the burden of the book of Isaiah, but then we do not need to limit ourselves to the idea of remnant, because God is God, and He is insisting on the fact that He is God; and the Holy Spirit is God, and the three Persons are, each one of Them God, for there is only one God; and there are fresh things coming out, things that perhaps the early christians did not touch; and why should we not allow that liberty to the Lord in our day?
WW It is a great thing to see that God is not limited to what was formerly known; it is a question of accumulation, and God never returns to just the previous status, does He? He always brings out something more.
JT Quite so, why should He not?
AP In the formula for baptism, baptising them “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, does not that involve the knowledge of each divine Person; and severally, and in the order in which they come? Our knowledge of Them seems to follow [p. 83] that order.
JT Quite so, you cannot reverse that order; you could not begin with the Spirit, and go back to the Father. You begin with the Father. It is “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”; there is only one name, it is one God in the three Persons.
Rem So that now we are getting an increased knowledge of the Holy Spirit.
JT I think so; I think when we baptise now, we have a little more light and power in the baptism. You take up the child with more tenderness, I believe, and more feeling, and baptise it to the name of the Father; it is not in the name there, it is to, as if to put the child into the presence of God. It is “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.
Ques As to this question of speaking to the Spirit, is it not a matter of desire, the desire of the soul to give to a divine Person what is due to Him in worship? In these verses you have read it says, “If any one thirst, let him come to me”, and then it adds, “this he said concerning the Spirit”. Is it not a question of really thirsting in one’s soul to render to a divine Person what is due to Him?
JT Quite so: ‘Hast thou heard of never thirsting’, as the hymn puts it (236:2). These wonderful things belong to poetry and God may help us to write poetry so that we may sing better.
AR In regard to the service of God there is quite an exercise at the present time as to how we should speak to the Spirit and when.
JT I think if you take the order of the service, the Lord’s supper is, of course, the very foundation of our position; it is the very centre of it. The term refers to the Lord; it does not refer to the Spirit, it does not refer to the Father, it refers to the Lord, it is the Lord’s supper. We cannot speak of the Father’s supper, or the Spirit’s supper; it is the Lord’s supper, and we go through with that rightly first, then we have liberty otherwise. If we want to speak to the Father, we do, and we may speak about the Son; we may speak about Him, but I would say, we should be sparse in doing it. I think what we have been doing for many years is pretty nearly right, that the Father is the ultimate of everything, the Father in the economy is the ultimate of everything, and therefore we proceed with the Father and end with the Father. And this, of course, leads to God, “that God may be all in all”.
RP Just when would we speak to the Spirit?
JT Any time, I do not see that we should limit it in that sense. He is the Spirit of God, a divine Person. If you are led to do it, bearing in mind what we have said about the Lord’s supper, there is no reason why you might not allude, for instance, to the Spirit of adoption, because that is a term that is applicable.
Ques I suppose we should rightly differentiate between those who are enquiring in a godly and reverential way as to the matter of addressing the Holy Spirit, and those who are criticising. I am one who, heretofore, had not seen the matter clearly. I should say, that up till today, I had been looking for the basis of address to the Holy Spirit; but I have been doing it, I trust, soberly.
ANW Was it not your point, that in Genesis 26, some of the wells were an occasion of contention, but this matter is not a matter of contention.
JT We have come to Broadways. We have no contention here today.
Rem Ephesians 1: 14, would bear out what has been said as to worshipping the Spirit; it says, “to the praise of his glory”, referring as I have heard you say, to the Holy Spirit of promise in verse [p. 85] 13.
JT Quite so. Relative to the remarks of our brother here, I think that what has been said as to Broadways implies richness, a certain richness and liberty of soul, and you are much more likely to bear with people when you are in that state than when you are not so free and easy. One has used the expression, being on easy terms with God, and I think it is a very good expression; and then we may be on easy terms with the Spirit, and on easy terms with the Lord Jesus, and on easy terms with the brethren too. You will not go very far in speaking rashly or too tersely to them if you are on these lines. You want to go as far as you can with them.
ANW May I just read that last word about the Broadways? “And he called the name of it Rehoboth” (which means Broadways), “and said, For now Jehovah has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land”.
JT Very good.
Rem I was much impressed that at the meetings at Plainfield you said that the brethren need to have patience with one another in regard to this matter of the Holy Spirit.
JT Quite so.
JHP As our time is nearly gone, would you tell us what you had in mind as to the passages in Revelation?
JT It was just to bring out the place the Spirit has in the Lord’s own remarks. As we know, the book of Revelation was given to Christ by God. It is a remarkable thing that God gave it to Him to show to His servants things which must shortly come to pass, and amongst these things that John was to write were “what thou hast seen”, but particularly as to now, “the things that are”. We have read from the things that are, meaning the addresses to certain assemblies, amongst which is the assembly of Philadelphia; and the most precious address of all [p. 86] is the one to that assembly, because in that connection the great revival has worked out. The Lord says to her, “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. The Lord says that to Philadelphia, and we are learning something of the meaning of Philadelphia, I mean to say, what the name means; brotherly love, and it is very precious that it does, and we should be in brotherly love. The Broadways makes way for it. But as we were saying, “the things that are” refer to the addresses to the assemblies, and that to Philadelphia is one of the most precious addresses that we have. The Lord says, to that assembly, which would mean the assembly in our day, “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. So that is a promise, and a most comforting promise, that whatever happens in regard to trade unionism or any other ism that is a trial to us, the Lord says, ‘I will keep thee from it’. I would think that He means that we are to be kept out of it, not simply from it, but out of it, by being transferred to heaven, and it is a great comfort to have that in our minds. That is why I suggested that we should read these few verses.
WMcK Does that promise apply in principle at the present time? The Lord does not say that He will take them out of it, but if the saints are faithful in the things they have to go through such as you have mentioned, the Lord says He will keep them out of it.
JT Yes, I think that is right too, I am glad you mentioned that; but I do believe, that the Lord really means that He will take us out of it by taking us up to heaven.
WMcK Yes, I see that, but I was only thinking of a present application of the [p. 87] word.
JT You have experienced that, and you have been kept out of it, I think it ought to be understood that although the trade unions are now pretty stiff, and employment is not so full as it was, at the same time at bottom there is a secret understanding, especially in some parts, that if a man has a conscience, they will recognise it, I do not know whether you would confirm that?
WMcK I have had to do with that, and one of the things that the business agent said was, This man has a conscience and has a right to be respected.
JT Very good. That is what is meant, and I believe if others of our brethren in the New York area will take that ground, God will be with them. Moreover certain letters that I have seen show that the Senators are sympathetic with the idea of the refusal of the closed shop.
ANW We saw a letter from a senator in which he used the words, ‘We are very much concerned about the matter’, showing his sympathy for the brethren.
JT That would indicate that God is perhaps in the thing. We are not politicians of course at all, we are christians, and we are dealing with our own matters now; but at the same time the powers that be are our matters too, that we respect the powers that be. They are the law makers, there must be laws, and we are glad there are, and they make them, and we have access to these men. If we were simply to say, I know of a man who cannot get work because the trade union will not let him, the senators might be helped to suggest something that would lead to the brethren getting work without difficulty.
VCL Do you not think that the understanding of the Spirit’s place as the Comforter is peculiarly intended to strengthen us at a time like this, when we may be able to prove Him in that capacity as perhaps we have not known Him [p. 88] before?
JT That is to say, He is in charge of our affairs down here as the Lord is in charge of our affairs in heaven. There may be opposition up there too from the devil, but the Spirit is in charge of our affairs down here on the earth, and we see that He is working in our favour; we count on Him to influence the authorities. But we should also see that there is such a thing as angelic service, which I believe is very much ignored amongst the brethren. They are said to be all ministering spirits, sent out to minister on account of those who shall be heirs of salvation; and that ministering is very largely a question of interference in connection with our external matters, as for instance one angel destroyed one hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the days of the Old Testament. So that we may count on God doing things for us not only by the Spirit but by angelic service.
RP Why is the Spirit so prominent in these early chapters of Revelation?
JT Because it is a question of what the Lord Himself has been given, the revelation which God has given to Christ, “to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place”. He sent and signified it; the word ‘signified’ means that it is in signs, there are significations and signs; and He sent and signified it by His servant John to His servants. John is viewed as a bondman in this book, he takes a lowly place; he says, “I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus”. Then he tells us that he was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day; much is made of the Spirit, and then he tells us that he heard a voice behind him, and it comes to light that the Lord is acting judicially in this first chapter. In the second chapter the Lord says, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. The Lord says, so to speak, ‘I am saying so much, but [p. 89] the Spirit could say much more; He would open up and enlarge on what I have said’. That is the mystery of it.
WMcK Does the fact that John denotes himself as a brother and fellow-partaker before he says, “I became in the Spirit”, show what is possible for us?
JT Quite so.
RP The Spirit now today is adding to what has been said, is that your thought?
JT That is the idea. You might say, The Lord has said all that is to be said. He has written seven epistles to the assemblies. Why do they not contain all that is to be said? But then the Lord has not said everything; He is leaving something to the Spirit; so that we have ministry, we have meetings like this, and the Spirit speaks. It says, “let him hear what the Spirit says”, not what the Lord says, but what the Spirit says to the assemblies.
Rem That is still continuing is it not?
JT Yes, it is. We have our Bibles open, and one and another is saying something, and the Spirit is helping us to do it.
AR These letters that are being written to Washington are not being written to politicians; it is a question of recognising and writing to the government, is it not?
JT Quite so, and if we do not recognise that, we are not recognising the truth, because it is part of the truth, and it dates back to Nebuchadnezzar, when God handed over the government of the world to him; and this goes on still. Why should we not observe that, and recognise these facts? We are not politicians, we are simply acting wisely, we see our brethren suffering and we want to help them.
HB In the second chapter of the Song of Solomon where the beloved says to the spouse, “And the voice of the turtle dove is heard in our land”, is that an allusion to the Spirit, do you think?
[p. 90] Would the turtle dove typically suggest the Spirit, the form in which He would come down?
JT Noah too had to do with that; the dove is mentioned in connection with him. It has to do with the blessed Lord Jesus, and when the Lord was about to be baptised the dove came down; the Spirit came in the form of a dove and abode upon Him, as if He enjoyed the thought of being with the Lord Himself. And we surely ought to enjoy the thought. Brothers have written to me from several different parts of the world that they are getting great enjoyment out of the thought of the communion of the Holy Spirit; that is one of the phrases that we get in the New Testament; the love of God, and the fellowship or communion of the Holy Spirit. Then too we read of the love of the Spirit, and these are great things that in our secret histories it is our privilege to enjoy. We are to be happy instead of being downcast, or overcome by circumstances; we are happy, for the Spirit is to shed abroad the love of God in our hearts, a very wide expression.
Ques Would ministry like Ezekiel 47, have in view waters to swim in?
JT Waters to swim in. There is no doubt that that might be a clue to what the Lord says in John 7 as to the Spirit, “as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers”. That probably alludes to Ezekiel 47. It is a wonderful chapter. We have not much more to say as to Revelation 3, it is a matter of what the Spirit says to the assemblies, and how much there is for us in what He is saying. It is the Spirit in ministry.
SJH Could you give us some suggestion as to the titles we might use for the Holy Spirit in the morning meeting, whether we would start addressing Him as Lord and then if we were free use the different titles as we go on with the service?
JT [p. 91] That would be a question of the intelligence you have, because the Scripture says, “the Lord is the Spirit”; you can address the Spirit as Lord.
SJH I thought that would be more for the early part, perhaps. Would it not be something different toward the end of the meeting?
JT Perhaps so. The fact of the matter is that the subject is so large, the matter of the service of God is so large, that we might make mistakes if we spoke hurriedly, and our time is gone. We hardly know enough about the subject to apply it, and I am just a little afraid we might say something that would not be quite right. At the same time I do see that the term Lord is applicable to the Spirit of God, and it is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is applicable to the Father; He is sometimes called Lord, as in Matthew 11: 25.
EAL In regard to the repetition of the injunction to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies, would it have a link with John 16: 12; “I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth”? So that now it is not just a question of looking into the Scriptures and seeing a worded basis for what we should do, but rather as we are in the Spirit, He will show us what we should do and say?
JT Just so, and I would add that the times we are living in now are greater than simply remnant times; the Lord is bringing out fresh things for us from the Scriptures, or rather I should say the Spirit is doing it. The Lord said, “He will shew you things to come”, and “He shall guide you into all the truth”. We have not got all the truth, maybe we are getting some now.
Rem Would the words of Haggai suggest that, his words that the latter glory of this house shall be greater than the [p. 92] former?
JT That is a good confirmation, so that we might expect the latter glory to be greater than that at the beginning.
SJH In the temple there were half-open flowers. Is there a suggestion that they are opening up now?
JT That is right.
ANW Does not John 7 show that there is more in the Scripture than we think there is?
JT Well, it is wonderful, it is marvellous, the glories that are there! ‘Hidden treasures’ they are called, and we are to dig for those hidden treasures. We have not time, so we say. Maybe we say in the morning that we have to hurry away for a train; but then these hidden treasures are more than a train, more than your business even; we must attend to the Scriptures.
WW Do you not think one difficulty with us is that we want to stick to the letter of Scripture and not make way for the Spirit?
JT Quite so, and yet we have the Spirit, who is ready to help us and to guide us; it is a beautiful word, to guide us into all the truth.
WW So as we are amenable to the Spirit, He would open up these things to us.
JT He would indeed.
EAL The Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so; it does not say they searched them to see if they were not so. It is a positive approach.
JT It is the positive side, to see if these things were so. Why does it say that? If the things available are so wonderful, why do we not just stop and think? Maybe we shall get some wonders.
ANW The Bereans received the things first, they did not refuse them, they received them.
JT They had a readiness of mind.
JKP Is there not a beautiful suggestion of the present activities of the Holy Spirit as bringing out [p. 93] the full thoughts of God in 1 Corinthians 2: 10, where it says that the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God? Do you not think we should cultivate more the desire for the company of the Holy Spirit in that way?
JT I believe that God is honouring what the brethren have been doing. In Acts 20, seven brothers were concerned about things there. It was the first day of the week at Troas, and they had the Lord’s supper, and Paul stood up to speak; he discoursed as if there was a great deal to say, and I believe there is a great deal to say about this matter, and we had better be patient and hear it. They all listened to Paul till he finished, and then they went up and broke bread, and they went away comforted. That is the way things are; that there is comfort.
SMcC Do you think that verse 11 of chapter 3 is a good verse to go away with? “I come quickly, hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown”. There is something distinctive about the Philadelphian phase.
JT Beautiful. And then the further great and glorious thought in the end of chapter 22, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. They say, “Come”, not, “Come quickly”, but “Come”; as if the thing ought to be taken account of at once. The Lord is hearing that all the time, they are saying, “Come”. But over against that stands the patience of God.