THE SERVICE OF GOD AND THE LORD'S SUPPER (3)
[p. 389] THE SERVICE OF GOD AND THE LORD’S SUPPER (3)
JT What is in mind to say centres in the passage as to worship. The thought is not to attempt to unfold the general teaching of the passage, but the question of worship. From verse 7 this subject is led up to, and we may remember that according to verse 6 the Lord became wearied with His journey: “Jesus therefore, being wearied with the way he had come, sat just as he was at the fountain”.
Ques Why do you call attention to that particularly?
JT I suppose it indicates the Lord’s lowliness in accepting the appearance of weariness, or the feeling of it, without any disguise as to the condition He was in. He was ready to speak to a soul, the woman having come out of Samaria afforded the opportunity. The Lord seized it, and it led to this subject of worship; she herself raised it. She says in answer to the Lord, in verse 19, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship”. The subject is thus set before us, and it seemed as if it would be suitable for us to follow on what we have had in this hall yesterday, and consider the thought of worship.
JPH Is it in your mind very prominently that the fountain indicates the Spirit, the Holy Spirit being the One who is in charge of the matter of worship? The Lord was sitting there.
JT Very good. Verse 7 reads, “A woman comes out of Samaria to draw water. Jesus says to her, Give me to drink (for his disciples had gone away into the city that they might buy provisions).
[p. 390] The Samaritan woman therefore says to him, How dost thou being a Jew, ask to drink of me who am a Samaritan woman? for Jews have no intercourse with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. The subject of living water is, no doubt, an allusion to the Spirit, and the Lord orders it that it should come up in this way, and that the question of worship should enter into the matter. It is a question of the Father, and what the Father seeks.
Ques Do you mean that there could be no worship secured for the Father apart from the reception of the living water?
JT Quite so. No doubt the Lord thought of it when He asked for a drink.
Ques Does worship enter into the thought of springing up into eternal life?
JT Quite so. The springing up alludes undoubtedly to the power of the Spirit operating in our hearts, so that the Father is coming into view, so to speak. The Father seeks worshippers.
Rem The woman herself seems to introduce the thought of worship.
JT Yes, she does, I was thinking of that. The Lord orders it to reach this point. The woman says, in verse 15, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw”. And then the Lord answers, “Go, call thy husband”, as much as to say, There must be right household conditions ere we touch the question of worship.
Ques Do you think then that this worship to the Father runs on to worship in the assembly?
JT I would think so. As we come to the question of the husband, she says, “I have not a husband. Jesus says to her, Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five [p. 391] husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband: this thou hast spoken truly. The woman says to him, Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”. And then she says, “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship”. And then the Lord calls her “Woman”, as if that was at the bottom of the whole matter, the household affairs. She was a woman and she had had five husbands. Things were deranged in her state and circumstances, utterly deranged, and yet the Lord does not hesitate to answer her question about worshipping and that it should be in this mount. He does not hesitate.
JFG You have often referred to the thought of “from glory to glory” starting in our household setting and going forward. Is that what you have in mind that these household conditions must be right before this is known?
JT I think that is good. The Lord has household conditions in mind, undoubtedly, before the question of worship, but still He did not hesitate to proceed with what she said, and evidently what came out put things right in her soul. Then, it says she left her water-pot; that is to say, she left what she came to do and she “went away into the city, and says to the men ...” showing that she was completely delivered from herself. To be completely delivered from our circumstances is a greater matter.
JPH In John 17 the Lord says to the Father, “Righteous Father”. Is everything that is offered to Him in worship and praise to be on a righteous basis?
JT Quite so.
Ques When it says, “worship the Father”, is it that Person in the Godhead?
JT Yes. That is what I would say.
Ques I mean it is not a question of relationship in the [p. 392] worshipper?
JT Well, of course, it would have that in mind undoubtedly, the relation of the Father, but then if we just look at it as it stands we shall see this. She says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her, Woman”. That is a thing I think we should not pass over. He calls her “Woman”, a title which enters into the question of household relations. “Jesus says to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall [p. 397] worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”. It seems to me wonderful that, in spite of the fact of what was actually true of this woman, the Lord should condescend to speak to her on those lines; the light shone into her soul, so that she is able to evangelise immediately.
DJM Would Ephesians 5 come in, “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands”, and “Husbands, love your own wives”? All is in view of the great subject of worship in that epistle.
JT Quite so. How can we have the service of God where there is a deranged condition in families, in persons, whether men or women? And yet the Lord does not hesitate to proceed with the subject brought up by the woman herself.
CFI Would this worship of the Father here link with the declaration of the Father in the first chapter? “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. Would the worship be in the light of that?
JT [p. 393] Quite so.
FJF Is worship produced by having a divine Person before the consciousness of the soul?
JT Well, quite so. The Lord is there before this woman, and does not hesitate to answer her question in relation to worship.
AM She does not seem to have any person before her. She says, “Our fathers worshipped”, but she does not mention any object of worship at all. She would not be intelligent as to that.
JT Well, it is just a question of what the Lord said in answer to what she suggested. “Jesus says to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father”. So that clearly the Lord had the thought of the Father in His mind, and placed it before her mind.
JT-r Does this thought of worshipping in spirit and in truth, following a reference to the household matters, involve that the Lord would raise moral questions with each one of us?
JT That is quite right.
JT-r I was thinking of the expression, “in spirit and truth”. Would you say a word as to those two references?
JT The word ‘spirit’ is not the Spirit here; it is just the attitude of the mind. In dealing with God, our minds must be regulated, and the Lord aimed at that in saying to her, “Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know”. That is to say, there is something there and worship is implied; that is, God is there. The worship is implied, “We worship what we know”. The Lord really meant that God was there, so to speak, “for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth”, “In spirit”, is, you might say, that I am concerned about the thing spiritually, or “in spirit”.
WSS Would the words “and truth” go so far as to embrace the whole revelation; being intelligent in regard to what has been revealed?
JT That is what is meant. The Lord says, “the hour is coming”. He would mean christianity. That is what we are in now. We are in it, and therefore the thing is in truth, “in spirit and truth”. We were not concerned this morning about any ecclesiastical forms; we were there in spirit and in truth. We were there to worship God really, but beginning with the Lord’s supper, because the Lord’s supper is the beginning of the service of God.
Rem I suppose in christendom the worship has very largely got on to Samaritan ground, in a general way; what is imitative.
JT Just so. There are probably a hundred kinds of services or worship in this country.
ECM Does the verse in Philippians have any bearing, “we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh”, Philippians 3: 3?
JT Just so; involving christianity, as we said.
CMM Do you distinguish between worshipping the Father and worshipping God?
JT The Lord’s message through Mary said, “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”, John 20: 17. Evidently that would be the basis on which worship would be. We begin with the Father and then God is the final great thought. It goes to the full divine thought, the worship of God, “My God and your God”, He says.
DJM Would the Father involve the thought of the family?
JT Well, just so, only that God is the great thought in the divine mind. “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father”. That is to say, the first thing is the Father,
[p. 395] in the worship, and then God, that God is “all in all”. We end with that.
JPH Did you indicate elsewhere that you thought that “God” in John 20: 17 embraced the Godhead?
JT “My Father and your Father” is the same Person, the Father, and God, only that He is first spoken of as Father. It is “my Father” and then “my God”.
Ques Is there some particular emphasis on the thought of grace in the whole setting of this matter, connected with the name of Father?
JT It says “the Father” here.
Rem Yes, I wondered whether you had that in mind calling attention to the Lord’s weariness, that the light was reaching this woman through such a One. Is it an amplification of what John had already said, “full of grace and truth”?
JT Just so.
Ques And when Paul says, “to the praise of the glory of his grace”, would the thought of grace, connected with the Father, prepare us for the greater things?
JT So that John 1 leads up to John 4, of course. The third chapter introduces the new birth, which is basic, and then we have the Father giving everything into the hand of the Son. Then, in this chapter, that the Father is seeking worship, and the conversation led to the woman being thoroughly clear inwardly, so that she “left her water-pot and went away into the city, and says to the men, Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?” That is to say, she is completely cleared inwardly, and evidently the clearance was worked out in this conversation as to worship, and as to her previous illicit relations. That entered into the subject of the conversation between the Lord and this woman, and it completely cleared her; so that [p. 396] she becomes evangelical, and she is not afraid even to go to the men. We might have thought she might be ashamed of herself, but she was not. If we are clear before God, we are not ashamed at all; we are courageous, and can go out for the truth.
DJM And she is able, as thus cleansed, to call forth all that is within her to praise Him?
JT Just so.
Ques When you speak of being cleared inwardly does it stand, in your mind, in relation to the Lord’s remark, “shall become in him a fountain of water”? Is clearance inwardly by the Spirit?
JT Quite so. There is free course for the Spirit, springing up. It is not running down or out, but springing up. It is a living thing.
JT-r Is the thought of what is inward in reference to this woman, and the work that had gone on in her, in keeping with the reference in Psalm 51, “thou wilt have truth in the inward parts”?
JT Very good.
Ques Would Psalm 45 have any bearing, “He is thy Lord, and worship thou him”?
JT Well, that is quite in order. Of course, she has not come to that, but what is implied is that she is entirely cleared inwardly. She had a living spring within her, springing up into everlasting life. That is a basis for worship, of course; everlasting life is the basic thing.
FJF When we worship God, would that include His creatorial powers. His almightiness, and glories that are not limited to christianity?
JT Well, what the Lord says here would lead up to that. The Lord says, in verse 21, “Believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth”. Then it goes on, “for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit”. Well, now, whether it be that He is the Creator, or whether it is just that He is to be worshipped, is not of very prime importance; it is a question of what God is, and that He is a spirit. That is the first thing, that He is a spirit.
JSE Is the key to this in the word ‘true’?
JT Quite so, “True worshippers”. We are dealing with God. God is a spirit, but then there is the reference to the Father, “the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father”. That is to say, the Lord had in His mind that it would be in christianity really. It would be a question of the Father; God as Father; but then it is God as God too. If we use the title “God”, we have in mind what He is; that He is a spirit. The Lord, of course, is God too, but He became Man. He became Man, and He is said to be “the true God and eternal life”. So that these things are all basic really, I mean they involve the Deity. They involve God in the true sense, first as the Father, as we get in John 20, and even here, and then as God Himself. But here it is simply that “God is a spirit”. That is what He is essentially; He is a spirit.
CMM Is this God the Father? It says here, “God is a spirit”. It says in Colossians, “God the Father”, Colossians 3: 17. Is the expression “God is a spirit” a brief reference to Colossians?
JT I think it is God in the sense in which the Lord conveyed the thought here, that “God is a spirit”. “The hour is coming and now is”, the Lord says, “when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”. I would take it, in that sense, that it is God as the object of our worship. The Lord had in His [p. 398] mind that God was to be thus known. He Himself was God, of course, too; but He had in his mind worship, and how God is to be addressed as in worship and how He is seeking things; He is seeking worshippers.
Ques Is this over against the ritual side of things, suggested in “this mountain” and “Jerusalem”?
JT Just so. The Lord is saying, in answer to the woman, that God is a spirit and that He is seeking worshippers. I think therefore we ought to deal with the subject that the Lord had in mind, and see what He intended to convey to this woman’s soul, and what effect it produced in her soul. When we come to actual christianity, we are in an economy, that is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and Two, the Son and the Spirit, are active in the economy. So that we have to bear in mind that we approach the Father through the Son, and through the Spirit as well; it is an economy.
Ques So that both the Son and the Spirit act in a mediatorial way?
JT Just so, I should have used that word ‘mediatorial’, because that is just the point. It is the economy into which we have been brought, and it is God Himself in that economy, and the Son and the Spirit are subservient in the economy in operating, bringing about the system of worship.
WSS In the end of chapter 3 you have said that an administration is committed to the Son, the Father seeking worshippers and the Son moving in relation to that.
JT Quite so.
WC Would it be right to say that when God is before us in relation to worship, we are not thinking of the mediatorial side of things, but are in the gain of them?
JT Well, we know it. We are in the mediatorial system, and we approach God on that principle. We approach God through the Son and the Spirit. The [p. 399] preliminary of the service of God is the Lord’s supper, and the Son and the Spirit have part in that, but when we come to the final part, which we are now thinking of, the Father is the Object and He is approached mediatorially, through the Son and through the Spirit.
PL “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2: 18.
JT Just so. There you have it all.
Ques I suppose we never get beyond the mediatorial system, do we?
JT No, I do not think we do.
Rem We have to remain within the limits of the economy in that sense.
JT That is just what I would say.
JT-r Would you say a word, please, as to “we worship what we know”. The word ‘what’, instead of the personal pronoun, is brought in.
JT That is something to think of, and it is over against what they were doing. “Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know”. “What we know” is, I would think, all that we have in the mediatorial system through which we approach God.
JT-r I wondered whether worship is not more a personal matter, keeping clearly in thought the mediatorial system.
JT And then your objective is God, and that means the economy into which we have come, and that we approach Him through the Son and through the Spirit. That goes on, as far as I can see, eternally.
Ques Does it show how near it was to the Lord’s own heart, that He should speak so freely of this matter to such a woman?
JT Quite so, and what she does is the sequence of it, meaning that she is liberated in her soul now. She leaves her water-pot. The disciples marvelled that Jesus talked with the woman, but He knew what He was doing, and she was delivered. She had [p. 400] been a disreputable woman and now she is delivered from it all. She is not a bit afraid of the men.
Ques Is it like the truth setting you free?
JT That is just what it is.
JJT After the Lord speaks of worship and she is set in liberty, she evangelises. Does that follow on the spirit of worship?
JT Quite so, I would say that, because she leaves her water-pot of her own accord. Why does she do that? It means that she had now another Object, and that was her deliverance. So she went to the men and said, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” That is, she is evangelising, but then you can see in her evangelising, that she is delivered inwardly. She is in possession of the living water springing up into everlasting life.
AM The Lord says in verse 22, “Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews”. Can we have this kind of knowledge apart from an appreciation of salvation, involving deliverance?
JT I think we ought to keep to the actual state of this woman, and the Lord’s conversation with her; and how He bore in His conversation what she suggested; that is, the question of worship. Therefore the idea of worship enters into all that we are saying, salvation and all else.
Ques What this woman came into was, in our language, more deliverance than salvation, was it not?
JT That is what I would say, exactly. Her course and circumstances were most disreputable, but then the Lord delivers her completely. She is set free. Why does she leave her water-pot? Why does she not fill it and bring it back, which is what she came to do? But she left it, meaning that she is wholly free from everything for the moment,
[p. 401] except to evangelise, to do the work of God. She goes to the men and says to them, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?” That is, she would spread abroad the knowledge of the Lord Jesus, in that sense, among men.
Ques Would that link with the beginning of Romans 7, where we have the thought of being married to another? She says, “Come see a man”.
JT I would say that. Just so. We might say she is married to Christ; but then that would mean that she belongs to the assembly, fully. If we are dealing with that on those lines, Romans 7, it is a question of being of the assembly.
JPH Should the fact that the Lord discloses all this to this woman of this disreputable character be a great encouragement to all of us to go in fully for understanding all that the Lord would disclose to us?
JT Quite so.
Ques In this passage, God the Father is the Object of worship; there are scriptures which suggest the Trinity, the Godhead. Would that be outside our range?
JT Let us read the passage again. “Believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father”. It is the Father that is in mind, “Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers”. And then, “God is a spirit”, “God” includes the three Persons. What was immediately in the Lord’s mind here, however, was the deliverance of this woman.
ATS Is it the proper part of man to worship God in a sense that God is a [p. 402] spirit?
JT Well, quite so; only that the worship of God will be in the millennium too, but it will not be the worship that we have. Ours is superior, and the Lord is dealing with that. He is not dealing with the millennium; He is dealing with what was coming in through Himself. It is what He calls “the hour is coming”, and that is christianity.
DJM And being an inward matter, does the Spirit lay hold of our affections and direct them in right channels?
JT Quite so, I think we will get help as we proceed on those lines. The effect of the conversation between the Lord and the woman is that she is completely delivered. That is what we all need, because the great thought with us is not the creation exactly, or our business, it is a question of God and our relations with Him; that is, our worshipful relations with God, especially on the first day of the week.
WSS Would we not be very much affected by the wonderful thought that the Father seeks worshippers, and worshippers being persons of such a character as this, such as we all are.
JT What is in mind, is just that. The Lord is thinking of the Father Himself, and therefore we have to think of Him, and the second, or final part of our service, on the first day of the week, refers specially to the Father, and then to God.
WSS I was thinking of the Father’s desires. To think that He has desires towards us in relation to worship is very wonderful.
JT Quite so. It is wonderful, and some of us have had a touch of it this morning. But I think we might just as well keep to the idea of worshipping the Father, and of what He is seeking.
EBMcC Should a prophetic word be liberating in that way in view of worship? The woman says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet”.
JT [p. 403] Well, things would be liberated in the assembly; it is in the assembly properly that the prophetic word is liberated, according to the first epistle to the Corinthians.
Ques What is worship? It has been said that it is the outcome of what God is Himself, known in the soul.
JT “The Father himself loveth you”. That is to say, “God is love”, but then it is God as the Father that we are dealing with just now. Although God Himself is mentioned, what we are dealing with, in the main, is the Father. It enters into the service of God, on the first day of the week, as some of us had it this morning, and rejoiced in it. The point now is to come to that in what we are saying, how the Father is seeking worship. Where you have “the Father” mentioned in that sense, it is God in grace. That is, I believe, what is meant in John’s gospel, God revealed in grace.
ATS Does that not enhance the impression we have of the Father, if alongside of that we think that “God is a spirit”?
JT It does help us, because the Lord is pleased to give us that definition. It is a very remarkable thing, that He should say it to this woman, and He did say it, and it was one of the elements that entered into the deliverance.
Ques Is it not a most remarkable thing, that that great God is a spirit and to be worshipped?
JT Another thing is that it is deliverance from idolatry. That is another great point in christianity; it is deliverance from idolatry, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”, John says.
WSS Would verse 18 of chapter 1, “the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”, link up with what you are speaking of this afternoon?
JT Very much, “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. That is to say, in mediatorial grace, He has declared the Father. That He dwells in the Father’s bosom is remarkable. John does not tell us anything about our sonship until we come to Revelation 21, and there he speaks of sons, and our being sons; but throughout the gospel it is only the sonship of Christ that is in mind.
Rem So that the divine thought is fully set out in Christ.
JT Exactly.
FJF And will the thought of Father be extended to the whole universe in the day to come?
JT I think so. I think the basis of our considerations, however, ought to be John 20 and kindred scriptures, rather than the millennial day, because we are dealing with christianity. That is the great point in the Scriptures, christianity. It is in the Father that we come to God in the most precious sense, but then the Lord says, “My God and your God”. So that we come into the knowledge of Christ’s God.
ATS It is as a glorious Man that He says, “My God”.
JT Yes.
ACSP Is what is within our range greatly enhanced by the consciousness that there is so much with God that is beyond our range altogether?
JT Well, quite so, if the word ‘consciousness’ is great enough for that, but the range is beyond us. It is inscrutable; inscrutable is the best word.
Ques And does not the sense of that induce worship?
JT Well, it does.
JT-r Will worship go on eternally?
JT I think so. God is seeking it now and why should He not have it then?
JT-r It gives an impressive sense that what we are privileged to touch now will go on for ever.
JT [p. 405] Exactly. There are dispensations, and the one we are in is the greatest of all. It involves everything that is to be disclosed to men.
AH-n Would you give us your thought as to why you remarked, God is the final thought?
JT I think God is the final thought; God is to be “all in all”. It is not all and in all, but “all in all”. The Son Himself is to be subject, we are told.
Ques May I refer back to a previous remark? The mediatorial system is not to be dissolved? It is to continue, is it not?
JT That is what I understand, I do not think God is to change at all in His outlook, so to speak. What He is seeking now, He will be seeking then, and He will be getting it.
PL “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen”.
JT Very good. That is one of the finest phrases we can get on the subject. That is, the closing passage of Ephesians 3.
Ques And is not great stress laid on the thought of the Father at the beginning of that prayer, and that we should be strengthened by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man, as leading up to the grand result that has just been quoted?
JT Yes, “Of whom every family in the heavens and on the earth is named”. And we are the greatest family, the assembly is the greatest family. So it is “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. The assembly is the greatest family of all, and the glory to God is there seen in Ephesians.
EBMcC Does God tabernacling with men go on eternally beyond the millennium?
JT I think it does. It is clearly in contrast to the Jews. It is just men. That is the idea; the divine idea eternally was that. The Jewish system was only brought in subordinately, and it is worked [p. 406] out, of course, but the idea of God is to tabernacle with men, and Christ became a Man. Of course, He was a Jew, in a certain sense, but He became Man. The incarnation is manhood.
Rem “And the life was the light of men”, John 1: 4.
JT Just so. It is not angels but men.
Rem Men as such; not the Jew only, but all.
JT That is right.
FJF “Good pleasure in men”, Luke 2: 14.
JSE Is this word ‘worship’ comprehensive of two other words, ‘giving thanks’ and ‘praising’?
JT Well, we have to go to the dictionary really to get the abstract meaning of the word, but what the Lord is saying conveys it to our minds. I would rather learn what He had in His mind as to worship, learn from the Lord rather than from the dictionary. Worship is really the outgoing to God of our intelligent affections in the power of the Spirit, and that is what God is after.
Rem In 2 Corinthians the apostle says, “The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows-he who is blessed for ever”, 2 Corinthians 11: 31.
JT A beautiful phrase! He knows; but I think what we are dealing with now is the question of worship; and it is the outgoings of our intelligent affections unreservedly to God. That is what He is looking for.
Rem You have spoken of the capacity of the vessel in relation to the woman which was before Him. I was thinking of the advantage we have over that poor woman, as being in the Spirit’s day and linked on with such glorious things.
JT Quite so. That is the solution of everything. There is no greater day than the day we are in. It is leading us on into eternity.
Rem I think we were all struck when you remarked that in Revelation 21, verses 1 - 8, the eternal [p. 407] setting of things is given prior to the millennial setting, which shows it is primarily in God’s mind. Does not that make this dispensation very wonderful?
JT Very good.
Rem What is eternal has entered into it, and will really flow out of it.
JT Quite so.
Ques God all in all would be God known in Christ, would it?
JT It is God. God is God, and Christ is Christ. What the Lord is dealing with here is God, as the Father. The Father is seeking, because it is what comes out in the service of God that we are really dealing with, and the first day of the week is the day for it. It is, so to speak, a question of the enjoyment that there is for God, I use the word ‘enjoyment’ for it is what He is seeking from us, from our intelligent hearts. It is the intelligent service of God.
Ques Would you not think we might humbly say what He is receiving too?
JT I think He is, I think the revival has brought it all about, so that the service we are going on with is according to God’s mind, and it is wonderful that God brought it out in our day.
WSS Is there great comfort in the words “now is”, “the hour is coming and now is”, linking up with what is eternal?
JT Quite so. The “now is” would cover the Lord’s own attitude. Undoubtedly He had His own attitude toward His Father. He spent His nights on the mount of Olives. What was He doing? He was with the Father.
CAI In the matter of God and men, is there the thought not only of the order of being, and God in grace in relation to him, but also of what God has brought in for His own pleasure in men?
JT [p. 408] Yes; only that we have to remember, when we say that, that it is in sonship, men in sonship, that His pleasure is secured. Sonship is the highest thought; the highest relation we can be in with God.
ECM Is that the thought in John 17, “the men whom thou gavest me out of the world”? Would that link on with the thought of men?
JT Quite so.
EAE I would like to be clear on one thought. Would you eliminate worship to the Son and to the Holy Spirit from the end of the morning meeting?
JT I think the Father is the supreme Object after the Lord’s supper is finished. The Father is the supreme Object. The Spirit is there to augment the service, and the Son too, but it is mediatorial. Both the Spirit and the Son are mediatorial in Their service. God is the Object of all.
EAE So that you would not address the Son and the Holy Spirit at that point?
JT No, I should not. That is the line the brethren have been taking for about forty years, and God has helped us in it. He has helped us in the way that the service of God has been broken up, as it were, beginning with the Lord’s supper, and then proceeding to the Father. It is all in the power of the Spirit, and the Lord Jesus as the Mediator.
Rem So that the word in Ephesians is “through him”-that is, through Christ-”we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2: 18.
JT Well, that gives it exactly, just as I have spoken of it.
ACSP To whom does the last verse of Ephesians 3 refer? Paul says, “To him be glory in the assembly”.
JT Let us see how the passage runs, “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. “To him” there refers to God, and would include the three Persons, though in the matter of worship and assembly service, with which we are dealing, it is the Father who is primarily in mind.
Rem It makes a very affectionate appeal to us all, that we are necessary to such a system of affection.
JT I think it is wonderful, the more we ponder it. And how carefully it is presented to us. We have the three Persons, and two of Them subordinate in lowliness, so that the Father should be ministered to as He seeks.
AH-n So that when we are moving forward on the line of worship, is it right to include in our minds the Name, God’s name, according to Matthew 28?
JT It is “name”, just one name. We are baptised “to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. Is that what you have in mind?
AH-n Yes, I was wondering whether it was right to include Them in our minds, involving worship?
JT What we are referring to now is God. It is really inscrutable, but we can see enough to see that God is the supreme Object, and that He is dealing with everything on those lines. The Son and the Spirit have come into a subordinate place, and He is the supreme Object to Both; so that we are brought into line with that.
Ques So that the sense we have of relationship greatly liberates the worship that may be there?
JT Just so.
JFG In the chapter in Ephesians which has been called attention to, it speaks, just earlier, of being strengthened by His [p. 410] Spirit.
JT That is by the Father’s Spirit, in the inner man.
JFG Has that in view that the worship to the Father might be reached?
JT That is right. Ephesians, I believe, gives the supreme thought in the service of God.